Could the Raiders hat be a GROSVENOR?

[Canyon]

Hello, Canyon here!

Yes, I know I haven't been around here much of late, but I'm planning on changing that soon.

I had some money for Christmas and for my birthday last month, I decided that it was time to continue working towards completing my Indy memorabilia collection. I now have all of the Dark Horse Indy comics (I just need the Marvel Last Crusade ones and that's all the comics - in English, anyway). I also have the rest of the TSR Indy RPG modules and all I am missing is the box set that came out at the beginning.

Anyway, as well as the Indy stuff, I also got a few older Harrison Ford biographies and came across something very interesting which I thought I would share with you all. In the biography written by Minty Clinch, released in 1987 (originally in the UK), I read something very interesting in the chapter regarding Raiders, titled Bullwhipper Extraordinairy At the end of the chapter it states the following:

'Of course Raiders had its minuses as well as it pluses. Indy's hat, for one. Spielberg had finally found the model he liked at Herbert Johnson's, London's most exclusive hatter, and ordered two dozen copies at £49 each so that Indy need never go bare-headed. And how Ford hated the battered brown Grosvenor, especially in 120 degrees of heat.'

Now, I know that some of the info surrounding the Raiders fedora is somewhat sketchy at best, but when I mentioned this to Chewie (and as you know, he is somewhat of a hat collector), he thought it would be important to mention this fact as a Grosvenor is not just a type of hat, i.e. like a trilby or a fedora but is an actual style.

This may not be anything, but he thought I should post this just in case this is the first time that this has been mentioned.

Thank you for listening.

[fifthchamber]

Interesting stuff...

I had a look online, and found a thread a long way back from Squiresurf in which he mentioned the hat...The photos he'd attached can be seen on a google search, but only in the big window, since they've been taken down from his photobucket account...

The hat looks similar..Smaller brim, and a slightly lower crown height as far as I can tell from the photos.....It might be the crown height that rules it out...It's not as tall as the Raider's hat in my opinion, and the brim is a touch less wide than I see when I watch Raiders....

Which isn't to say it's ruled out...But I think it being too small means that even with alterations, it'd be hard to get the Raiders hat out of it....

I'd suspect that the Grosvenor was so close to the Poet that the author assumed it was the former and used that name? But at this point, quite honestly, that's just my own opinion....

It is a very nice looking hat though...I think I'd buy one if I saw one!

Cool stuff!

[Chiliana Jones]

could this be THE ORIGINAL poet?:

http://www.bates-hats.com/store/fedoras ... od_42.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"i saw a hat with a very wide brim and the crown was a little bit too high. it was theyr australian model. with a couple of fittings(brim cut, block and ribbon change) we got the hat right for Harrison" - Deborah nadoolman


(they have "the Indi" and "Grosvenor" there too)


just found it a bit odd that it came up on the same search for Grosvenor


CJ

[WConly]

If their version of 'The Poet' was center dent -- it would be a pretty cool hat. Not bad, as is, but would look better center dent. Interesting finds here. Good thread. W>

[Bogie1943]

I have to say both the Bates Poet and Indi look like very nice hats indeed. Other than the ribbon color the Indi looks rather similar to the famous lid of our beloved hero. Looking throughout their website I see many things I like. I would enjoy seeing more detailed photos of some of their wears. Thanks for sharing this!

[WConly]

I have to say both the Bates Poet and Indi look like very nice hats indeed. Other than the ribbon color the Indi looks rather similar to the famous lid of our beloved hero. Looking throughout their website I see many things I like. I would enjoy seeing more detailed photos of some of their wears. Thanks for sharing this!

Yeah...agreed. Some very interesting offerings here. I, like you, would like to see some 'in use!' It would lend a better perspective as to how they really stack up with other offerings, which we have seen. W>

[Texan Scott]

The screenused fedora was thin felt, not of great quality, and more reminiscent of the felt used for the Christy's and HJ styled hats. At least, so it appears. There has to be a reason why such a hat would 'break down' with a relatively minimal amount of use in a short period of time, or so it would appear?

These results speak more to the type of felt used, than the style of hat. It is possible to shape the felt in vertually any style.

[WConly]

The screenused fedora was thin felt, not of great quality, and more reminiscent of the felt used for the Christy's and HJ styled hats. At least, so it appears. There has to be a reason why such a hat would 'break down' with a relatively minimal amount of use in a short period of time, or so it would appear?

These results speak more to the type of felt used, than the style of hat. It is possible to shape the felt in vertually any style.

Many years back, Joe Peters Jr. made the same comment to me, while I was chatting with him (on the telephone) while ordering one of their hats. He said that he thought that it was a very light and flimsy type of felt. I am not quoting, here...but that was how I perceived what he was telling me. He (at least to me) indicated that it would have been very floppy and not have much stiffener, etc. So, yeah...I think you may well be on the roll here in referring to the felt used, as to the particular 'hat' itself; again...we will probably never know. That is what makes history so much fun. We know 'bits and pieces,' but as to actual facts, we are at a loss. W>

[Texan Scott]

"i saw a hat with a very wide brim and the crown was a little bit too high. it was theyr australian model. with a couple of fittings(brim cut, block and ribbon change) we got the hat right for Harrison" - Deborah nadoolman

If you read between the lines and into the Nadoolman quote above, it really does not matter what it was, as it could have very well been some type of "Australian" hat or some other style. The point is it was re-blocked and became something bespoked to fit Ford for this particular hybrid adventure film. The only variable that did not or could not change is the felt. What evidence do we have of the felt? If screenused is in fact the screen used fedora, then you have your link.

[BendingOak]

I'm still surprised that people think that the Raiders hat was a Australian model. When Debra stated she couldn't find a hat she liked so she used a " Australian model and stripped it down so she can use is like a raw body. She could cut the brim to what she wanted and shape the crown. Then she took it to Richard and he used the poet body to make the Raiders hat. It wasnt a model that was used for the actual hat but used as a raw body so she had the material to bring Richard. Remember she a designer not a hat maker so she didn't have the raw body of the poet so she grabbed the largest body she could find in a already built hat " the Australian hat"

[MARQ]

Bates Selection..If I´d be getting one maybe The Indi,The Poet,The Pioneer and The Berkley..and maybe The Faena in a different color Nice find all the same!

[Chiliana Jones]

If you read between the lines and into the Nadoolman quote above, it really does not matter what it was, as it could have very well been some type of "Australian" hat or some other style.

true, but it would be interesting knowing what the hat looked like before Deborah did her magic. For years i've heard "it's the poet, it's been around for years, even long before Indy" but then i came across a quote by Deborah that she designed the hat from scratch by using an "australian model" hat she found at HJ and redesigned it to fit Harrisons persona. could very well be this poet and the Indy-poet might even have taken the same name because it was designed after THE poet. but this is just a theory that popped up in my head as i write.

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

[backstagejack]

I have to say both the Bates Poet and Indi look like very nice hats indeed. Other than the ribbon color the Indi looks rather similar to the famous lid of our beloved hero. Looking throughout their website I see many things I like. I would enjoy seeing more detailed photos of some of their wears. Thanks for sharing this!

Using Google it's not pulling up anything substantial mwhen I type in Bates fedora.

oh, nevermind. Found it!

[Michaelson]

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

I've never understand that quote, as for anyone who watches films from the 1930's, or even newsreels from that era, you can see hat and hat after hat of that shape, height, bash and design.

I recommend the 1930's serial 'Dick Tracy' starring Ralph Byrd. He regularily wore tight front pinch fedoras with all the attributes of the Indy fedora.

Regard! Michaelson

[david_h]

Using Google it's not pulling up anything substantial when I type in Bates fedora.

I had a Bates fedora for a while. It was more of a Whippet design (with the bound brim and all) than an Indy hat, but it was quite nice.

[backstagejack]

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

I've never understand that quote, as for anyone who watches films from the 1930's, or even newsreels from that era, you can see hat and hat after hat of that shape, height, bash and design.

I recommend the 1930's serial 'Dick Tracy' starring Ralph Byrd. He regularily wore tight front pinch fedoras with all the attributes of the Indy fedora.

Regard! Michaelson

I agree, just look at Basil Rathbones Fedora in his "SHerlock Holmes and the Voice of Terror." I've seen MANY movies, serials, etc of that era that featured hats that JUMPED out to me as similiar or spot on as an Indy styled fedora.

[Texan Scott]

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

I've never understand that quote, as for anyone who watches films from the 1930's, or even newsreels from that era, you can see hat and hat after hat of that shape, height, bash and design.

I recommend the 1930's serial 'Dick Tracy' starring Ralph Byrd. He regularily wore tight front pinch fedoras with all the attributes of the Indy fedora.

Regard! Michaelson

Truly, there is "nothing new under the sun."

[Michaelson]

Nope, but we sure repackage a lot of stuff under 'new and improved', don't we?

Regards! Michaelson

[BendingOak]

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

I've never understand that quote, as for anyone who watches films from the 1930's, or even newsreels from that era, you can see hat and hat after hat of that shape, height, bash and design.

I recommend the 1930's serial 'Dick Tracy' starring Ralph Byrd. He regularily wore tight front pinch fedoras with all the attributes of the Indy fedora.

Regard! Michaelson

I agree, just look at Basil Rathbones Fedora in his "SHerlock Holmes and the Voice of Terror." I've seen MANY movies, serials, etc of that era that featured hats that JUMPED out to me as similiar or spot on as an Indy styled fedora.

Maybe true but not one of us went out of our way like we do with the Raiders hat. We owe all that madness to her, period.

[Illinois James]

That Bates 'Indie' gives a good impression, from the angle pictured, anyway. Have they been offered for awhile? Bates actually mentions Swales and Raiders in the description.

I know nothing of Bates, other than hearing of the brand, but I'm assuming they're quality equivalents to Christy's hats, and the like? Another old London battery?

Not that I'm in the market, but are the Christy's Adventurers still made?

It seems to me any H-J with large enough felt body could've been re-blocked and trimmed to make the Raiders hat, if an existing hat on hand and in stock wasn't satisfactory.

[backstagejack]

Deborah said she got a little disappointed when HJ started selling the Indy design because they didn't give her any credit for it even if she was the designer. "it didnt exist before" she said. the quote is around here somewhere

I've never understand that quote, as for anyone who watches films from the 1930's, or even newsreels from that era, you can see hat and hat after hat of that shape, height, bash and design.

I recommend the 1930's serial 'Dick Tracy' starring Ralph Byrd. He regularily wore tight front pinch fedoras with all the attributes of the Indy fedora.

Regard! Michaelson

I agree, just look at Basil Rathbones Fedora in his "SHerlock Holmes and the Voice of Terror." I've seen MANY movies, serials, etc of that era that featured hats that JUMPED out to me as similiar or spot on as an Indy styled fedora.

Maybe true but not one of us went out of our way like we do with the Raiders hat. We owe all that madness to her, period.

Speak for yourself, I wanted to be Sherlock Holmes before I ever knew there was an Indy,

But in all seriousness, I do agree with what you're saying,

[BendingOak]

That's exactly what I think happen. Debra took a Australian model hat ( because it had a big crown and brim) and stripped it down and used it like a raw body.shaped it, cut the brim down and so on. Handed to Richard. Picked the color and ribbon for him to use. He took the model and a HJ poet and transformed the poet into what the model was.

[Michaelson]

Maybe true but not one of us went out of our way like we do with the Raiders hat. We owe all that madness to her, period.

Not all of us. I was wearing 30's - 50's period fedora's LONG before Raiders ever hit the screen, and I, too, wanted to own (and DID own and wear) a fedora as worn by Basil Rathbone in his 1940's SH films.

Indy actually caught up with a lot of us rather than the other way round.

Regards! M

[fifthchamber]

Maybe true but not one of us went out of our way like we do with the Raiders hat. We owe all that madness to her, period.

Not all of us. I was wearing 30's - 50's period fedora's LONG before Raiders ever hit the screen, and I, too, wanted to own (and DID own and wear) a fedora as worn by Basil Rathbone in his 1940's SH films.

Indy actually caught up with a lot of us rather than the other way round.

Regards! M

<Ahem>.......Umm...That's because it WAS 1930 when you were wearing it?....



Sorry Mark...I couldn't let that one pass without a slight jab ...Please forgive me?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled forum-debate...

Regards..

[Tennessee Smith]

It's okay M, I've got the "Member Delete" button covered for you

[Michaelson]

Touche, old friend!!!

[fifthchamber]

It's okay M, I've got the "Member Delete" button covered for you

Hehe...Apologies..Apologies..


My regards to you both though..

[Tennessee Smith]

Good times

[Michaelson]

[BendingOak]

Yes M but don't you see my piont.

[Michaelson]

I always see your point, John. I just don't always agree with it, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Regards! M

[BendingOak]

I still think you exception not the norm.

[Michaelson]

I take that as a compliment.

[BendingOak]

Yes, it's crazy how information gets mixed up. For the original question,I would say no it's not. It's a HJ poet that was custom worked using Debra's proto type as a model ( she used a HJ Australian model hat as a raw body). Again, a Australian model was stripped down and used like a raw body, that's all. The Raiders hat wasn't a Australian model hat. It was a HJ poet. Just trying to be clear. I think people in the past have read way too much into things.

[indydude18]

You guys are in the ballpark! I personally feel that the Grosvenor model was used, but in ToD.

Here are the photos fifthchamber was referring too.

[BendingOak]

They would have to change that hat so much just to get it to either of the TOD or LC. While the current offering is so close to both movies.

[indyhan]

That Bates 'Indie' gives a good impression, from the angle pictured, anyway. Have they been offered for awhile? Bates actually mentions Swales and Raiders in the description.

I know nothing of Bates, other than hearing of the brand, but I'm assuming they're quality equivalents to Christy's hats, and the like? Another old London battery?

Not that I'm in the market, but are the Christy's Adventurers still made?

It seems to me any H-J with large enough felt body could've been re-blocked and trimmed to make the Raiders hat, if an existing hat on hand and in stock wasn't satisfactory.

i hope bates hats are a notch better than the Christy's, given the prices they charge...
been quite tempted myself to get one their indis but never managed to find anything much on the web to make up my mind...
intriguing they remain...

[jlee562]

Well, one thing is for certain, Bates puts far more atttention into their ribbon work.

[Texan Scott]

Yes, it's crazy how information gets mixed up. For the original question,I would say no it's not. It's a HJ poet that was custom worked using Debra's proto type as a model ( she used a HJ Australian model hat as a raw body). Again, a Australian model was stripped down and used like a raw body, that's all. The Raiders hat wasn't a Australian model hat. It was a HJ poet. Just trying to be clear. I think people in the past have read way too much into things.

When I look at screenused, I see Christy/HJ type felt. Wherever they sourced that felt, it does not look like it changed much over the years. It really does not matter how the hat was originally styled, just what it became. This keeps us beating a path to the hatters...

[backstagejack]

Yes, it's crazy how information gets mixed up. For the original question,I would say no it's not. It's a HJ poet that was custom worked using Debra's proto type as a model ( she used a HJ Australian model hat as a raw body). Again, a Australian model was stripped down and used like a raw body, that's all. The Raiders hat wasn't a Australian model hat. It was a HJ poet. Just trying to be clear. I think people in the past have read way too much into things.

When I look at screenused, I see Christy/HJ type felt. Wherever they sourced that felt, it does not look like it changed much over the years. It really does not matter how the hat was originally styled, just what it became. This keeps us beating a path to the hatters...

Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't Swales say they couldn't source the original felt anymore which is why no other hat has ever looked like the Raiders one?

[Michaelson]

That's what he told me years ago.

Regards! M

[BendingOak]

I think that's partly true. Why can't he sew the ribbon on the same way or crease it the same way. The one I got from his was so far off. I throw the BS flag at richard on that one.

[Texan Scott]

Yes, it's crazy how information gets mixed up. For the original question,I would say no it's not. It's a HJ poet that was custom worked using Debra's proto type as a model ( she used a HJ Australian model hat as a raw body). Again, a Australian model was stripped down and used like a raw body, that's all. The Raiders hat wasn't a Australian model hat. It was a HJ poet. Just trying to be clear. I think people in the past have read way too much into things.

When I look at screenused, I see Christy/HJ type felt. Wherever they sourced that felt, it does not look like it changed much over the years. It really does not matter how the hat was originally styled, just what it became. This keeps us beating a path to the hatters...

Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't Swales say they couldn't source the original felt anymore which is why no other hat has ever looked like the Raiders one?

...somewhere out of this type of discussion, it was rumored that the original Raiders hat was made of Curry felt from Brasil, but that may be another part of the puzzle we may never know. As i had hoped to imply, the Raiders felt used for the fedora looks very similar to the type of felt used for the Christy/HJ, but obviously not the same. It was obviously not too terribly expensive, nor high quality, and that could have very well been why it morphed into the SoC that many know and luv.

[backstagejack]

...somewhere out of this type of discussion, it was rumored that the original Raiders hat was made of Curry felt from Brasil, but that may be another part of the puzzle we may never know. As i had hoped to imply, the Raiders felt used for the fedora looks very similar to the type of felt used for the Christy/HJ, but obviously not the same. It was obviously not too terribly expensive, nor high quality, and that could have very well been why it morphed into the SoC that many know and luv.

True to that. It's weird how information from a highly documented and monumental film can be lost just from 30 years..... makes you wonder what we really know from even 200 years ago, hahaha.

So forgive me for not knowing, is Grosvenor a style of HJ hat?

[BendingOak]

Curry is a type of rabbit felt. Curry rabbit felt today is different then it used to be. Heck a lot of felt is different. I think the reason it was lost is because it was a truely custom order just for Debra and the movie.

You can't just go to Richard and say make me a Raiedrs hat. You left out a big factor, Debra. More then one person had their hands into that omelette.

[whiskyman]

You can't just go to Richard and say make me a Raiedrs hat. You left out a big factor, Debra. More then one person had their hands into that omelette.

Not to mention the fact that Richard Swales is dead.

[indydude18]

They would have to change that hat so much just to get it to either of the TOD or LC. While the current offering is so close to both movies.

I'd have to disagree with you there John, I think the Grosvenor is THE model used in ToD.

[BendingOak]

I'm sorry but please show me why? We already know that the TOD was the poet for sure as was the LC except for the couple of Stetsons in TOD.

Besides all that the question was is the Raiders and by no means is it.

[Indiana Jeff]

I think that's partly true. Why can't he sew the ribbon on the same way or crease it the same way. The one I got from his was so far off. I throw the BS flag at richard on that one.

Sounds very similar to the Wested stories of not being able to replicate the film jacket for years and years. Close, but not what is seen on screen.

That's not meant to start a jacket discussion in this thread, nor a Wested bashing. I'm pointing out the similarities in experiences. I'm also not implying Richard didn't make the ROLA hats. All accounts from multiple sources mark him at the maker.

My understanding of the history of trying to get good ROLA reproductions from Richard/HJ was largely with the block used. The ROLA block used for the movie is not the same block subsequently used for the Poet line regardless of whether a Poet hat was originally used as the basis for the ROLA hat. HJ may have continued to call them Poets, but at some point the block shape changed subtly.

Regards,


Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

I think Richard did make the hat but he wasnt the one who have us the look, that was Debra. I think the reason we can't get the same work out of Richard is because things changed. The block he used wasn't the one he normally uses for the poet and when the new designers came for TOD he gave them the poet stock hat, same goes with LC. That's why both bow work is exact,y the same and the over shape of the crown is the same. When Debra left the magic of that costume went with her. And that's my two pennies.