'Straight' vs. tapered back panel

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:45 am

I just noticed this picture from MN Jones's roadtrip thread (hope you don't mind me using the pic MN! ) :

<img src=http://www.minnesotajones.com/EC-17.jpg>

Compared to:

<img src=http://www.indygear.com/gear/images/Fs_vs_Wested1.jpg>

(FS left, Wested right)

The back panel looks very tapered on the original jacket - much more so than current jackets pictured. The shape looks more \/ than [ ].

The bottom of the back panel looks to be MUCH narrower than the top, probably providing a much snugger fit.

Is this just an illusion created by the display in the picture?

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:48 pm

Is this just an illusion created by the display in the picture?

No, you're right. The FS Expo has a tapered back panel, while on Westeds the back panel is square, unless requested to be different (which is why I just love Wested: there's almost nothing you can't change, and it won't cost you several hundred bucks).

Regards,

Marc

Gobler · Post by **Gobler** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:06 pm

I too like the tapered look but did the Raiders jacket have it as well? Or is this jacket a Raiders? (thought it was LC)

Cheers,
Jeff

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:09 pm

It's a LC jacket. I think.

Flash Gordon · Post by **Flash Gordon** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:40 pm

On the right action pleat on the original jacket, it almost looks like there's a seam running parallel to the edge about an inch or so in. Is THAT why the action pleats don't wave and buckle on the original as much?

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:05 pm

Good eyes, Flash.

You can make it out on the left side top as well.

It looks to be an inch in from the edge of the pleat. The distressing of the jacket has done us a favour here and clearly shown the depth of the pleat.

This suggests to me that the LC jacket had action pleats no deeper than 1", and a very tapered back panel going down to a narrow waist. We already know the jackets were made from very stiff, thick lambskin. Together, these factors would explain the lack of movement in the action pleats in LC.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:20 pm

Here are a few stills to reinforce this theory, from theraider.net:

<img src=http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/ ... ns/c13.jpg>

<img src=http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/ ... ns/c69.jpg>

<img src=http://www.theraider.net/films/crusade/ ... ns/c60.jpg>

Very little action pleat...erm...action

at all in the above shots.

It makes sense to me that. as the jackets in LC were made from scratch to a new pattern, the movement of the A.P's might be limited - it must have been a bind for the wardrobe dept. people to keep readjusting them between takes in the other movies.

BTW - I am an action pleat fan, but I now believe the A.P's in LC were very minimal indeed. Perhaps Peter could help us out here when he's next around?

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:41 pm

Thank you for your pics....its great to see the BACK of the Last Crusade jacket on display, lol,.....

However, to me this Last Crusade jacket looks smaller than the Last Crusade jacket that is on display at the Smithsonian....and it looks like the back of the Temple of Doom jacket that Chris King wore on MK's web-site at www.regular-guy.com....But, perhaps its just me....

Thank you for posting!
Captain D

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:54 am

I can confirm with certainty that the jacket at the Museum of Science and Industry is indeed a LC Jacket - it has the snap buttons on the storm flap, it's distressed as all get out (including tears even) and the right coat pocket appears it's been stretched out a bit (Grail Diary anyone?).

And I don't mind people posting my pictures here, that's what they're for!

Here's the two jackets on display (the Chicago jacket is first, and then the Smithsonian one...)

Rixter · Post by **Rixter** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:09 pm

Geez, you think they could display a brand new jacket for such a prestigious display as in the Museum of Science and Industry. Maybe someone could sneak in there over night and apply some globs of Pecards to it, maybe a moderator familiar with using Pecards.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:11 pm

Can't think of a soul, myself....

8-[ You have anyone in mind?

Regards. Michaelson

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:55 pm

Rixter wrote:Geez, you think they could display a brand new jacket for such a prestigious display as in the Museum of Science and Industry. Maybe someone could sneak in there over night and apply some globs of Pecards to it, maybe a moderator familiar with using Pecards.

As an act of self-sacrifice and philanthropy, I'm prepared to swap my brand new Wested for that old, battered rag they have on show.

I think I'll email them right now with that big-hearted offer.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:52 am

Thanks _ - was the jacket which you examined a Raiders or a LC jacket?

My theory is that the jackets for the third film were cut quite differently, as I understand the original patterns had been misplaced at the time. This would account for the increased taper to the back hem, the almost non-existent action pleats (see above) (plus the larger collar and pockets, press-stud fasteners and so on which we know about already).

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:21 pm

Quick, Ma, hand me the shotgun. Looks like _ is crawling into the yard again.

High regards, old friend! Michaelson

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:59 pm

_ thanks for that very fascinating history lesson. It explains a lot, IMO.

What I would be most interested to learn now are the differences between the patterns reproduced from the Keppler prototype and the final patterns for the LC jackets, which presumably incorporated extra input from Ford and the filmmakers?

Ford was a little older, and certainly must have been ‘measured-up’ over again for LC. What tweaks were made at that time to the Keppler prototype pattern and how, if at all, do these changes reflect in the LC jackets which are available today?

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:15 pm

Who can say why they put a press-stud on the jacket...

That's an interesting one. If they were trying to recreate the Raiders jacket, the inclusion of the top press stud particularly was such an obvious deviation from the original jacket that it must have been deliberate, and it must have served some purpose.

Running the movie through in my mind, I can't think what that purpose was....

Mr. Das · Post by **Mr. Das** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:24 am

They probably had a scene in the nazi mansion that was scrapped. The press studs are used to hold the flap in place so it doesn't flap around during a storm. So maybe there was an alternate scene where Indy stayed outdoors a bit more.

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:06 pm

The only time in L.C. that Indy had his jacket zipped up, that I can think of, would be escaping from the German zepplin....all the way to where Henry Sr. says, "these people are trying to kill us!" Then Indy says, "I know dad!" I'll have to check on the DVD to see if he has it snapped on the lower button or not.....Also, on the Young Indy episode (The Mystery of the Blues) Indy also has his L.C. jacket zipped up, but I can't remember seeing if he used the lower press-stud or not on it......

Kind Regards,
Captain D

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:12 pm

After wearing the Indy jacket for as long as I have, I ALWAYS request the studs on my storm flaps, regardless of version. In the wind, they're a God send. I imagine Ford got tired of being beat with his own jacket anytime the wind machine was turned on.

Michaelson

Gater · Post by **Gater** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:18 pm

Before I got my Wested, I had a 'close enuff' jacket that had press studs, and instead of zippering it up, if I didn't want the bottom hanging open, I could just snap the bottom closed, so it wasn't restrictive in any way, but wasn't hangin out, either. It was quite functional and practical.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:29 pm

My (new) Wested goat is a Raiders version, but I included press studs both top and bottom, they are really practical. But this still doesn't really explain the inclusion of the studs on the LC jacket. I bet Peter would know.

Post by **Ken** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:31 pm

I was speaking to Peter yesterday and heard the about the James Dean jacket for the first time. Basically they took the james jean jacket, took the top breast pocket off, added A2 pockets and extened the action pleats at the back and that was how the Indy jacket we know and love came into existence. The thing which really impressed me was that this all happened within the space of a week - they saw the jacket, got Peter to make it, took it to Ford to try on, made tweakings and adjustments and then made an initial 10 more for the film all in the space of a week! What a feat!

Ken

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:33 pm

WOW! Not THAT'S service!!! Maybe as a related "Indy" trip I should go back down to James Dean's hometown, which is less than an hour south of me!

Magnum · Post by **Magnum** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:33 pm

Flash Gordon,

You make a very interesting observation. It looks almost as though the back panel on the Wested in Chicago was taken in on either side, approximately 1 inch from the end of the action pleat. By taken in I mean as anyone would have done to a shirt that blouses out too much in the back and provides a more fitted look and feel.

So could this be the answer to the tapered look we all seek? Just have your Wested's taken in to provide that V look. Thoughts anyone?

schwammy · Post by **schwammy** » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:40 pm

_ wrote:remember EVERYTHING in the late 1980's had big collars!

Actually, I remember it being the opposite. Big collars were popular in the late 70s, but by the late 80s, wasn't the trend more toward skinny 'Blues Brothers' ties, suits with narrow lapels, and polo shirts with tiny collars? My suit from high school had such tiny lapels, it looked like one of those sack suits from the fifties.

An irrelevant point, I realize; I just wonder if I am remembering it wrong.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:40 am

By the time the 80's really rolled around, there was a throwback to design inspired by the 1950's. Just look at Pee Wee's Playhouse. (Indiana Jones and the Playhouse of Doom?

) It seems as though things go retro for whatever was 20 to 30 year prior, which explains the resurgence in 60's, 70's, and now 80's fashion.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:50 am

Actually, it was a mix of both decades. Example? Look at the trousers. Definitely WW2 officer pinks in design, but the belt loops were for the then popular wide leather belt! I remember them well.

Regards. Michaelson

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:10 pm

Speaking of the 80's, just remember, nothing comes between Brooke
and her Jordaches...

I fell in love with the way those pants fit... every curve...... of.....Oh baby...

Flathead

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 12:23 pm

Easy there, big fellow....take a deep breath....

Regards. Michaelson

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:16 pm

Strange, my Wested DOES have a tapered back panel. After all this discussion, I just assumed mine was square. Well, I took a tape measure to it, and sure enough, it's pretty tapered.
I get 21" up top, 17 1/2" at the bottom.

Anyone else check theirs?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:29 pm

IndyBlues,

It fit that cut bod of yours so well, you never noticed how tapered it was. Mine is tapered, too. The taper just runs in the other direction.

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:35 pm

Actually, all joking aside, my Wested Raiders measures 19 3/4" across the top, and 17" across the bottom.

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 9:52 pm

Bufflehead Jones wrote:IndyBlues,

It fit that cut bod of yours so well, you never noticed how tapered it was. Mine is tapered, too. The taper just runs in the other direction.

I wish that were the case my friend. My JACKET is tapered the right way, infortunately, my BODY is tapered in reverse, too.

Indianafred · Post by **Indianafred** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:17 am

Is there any pics of the "james dean" jacket, as it looked before the indy transformation?

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:38 am

Strange, my Wested DOES have a tapered back panel. After all this discussion, I just assumed mine was square.

I always assumed there was a little taper to the current back panel - my point is the taper on the pictured LC jacket looks much more extreme (plus without action pleats as we know them).

It It looks as though the back panel on the LC jacket was taken in on either side, around 1 inch from the end of the action pleat, for a more 'fitted' look.

Indiana Joe · Post by **Indiana Joe** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:41 am

FLATHEAD wrote:Speaking of the 80's, just remember, nothing comes between Brooke
and her Jordaches...

I fell in love with the way those pants fit... every curve...... of.....Oh baby...

Flathead

Flathead, I believe nothing came between Brooke and her Calvins.

Indiana Ken wrote:I was speaking to Peter yesterday and heard the about the James Dean jacket for the first time. Basically they took the james jean jacket, took the top breast pocket off, added A2 pockets and extened the action pleats at the back and that was how the Indy jacket we know and love came into existence. The thing which really impressed me was that this all happened within the space of a week - they saw the jacket, got Peter to make it, took it to Ford to try on, made tweakings and adjustments and then made an initial 10 more for the film all in the space of a week! What a feat!

Ken

That is a very interesting tidbit. I hadn't heard that before.

I.J.

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:45 am

I was speaking to Peter yesterday and heard the about the James Dean jacket for the first time. Basically they took the james jean jacket, took the top breast pocket off, added A2 pockets and extened the action pleats at the back and that was how the Indy jacket we know and love came into existence. The thing which really impressed me was that this all happened within the space of a week - they saw the jacket, got Peter to make it, took it to Ford to try on, made tweakings and adjustments and then made an initial 10 more for the film all in the space of a week! What a feat!

Ken

I hope this can be incorporated into the main site during the revamp - it's a little gem of design information!

ob1al · Post by **ob1al** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:03 am

Here's a comparison shot between the Wested and a James Dean Jacket.

<img src=http://uk.msnusers.com/_Secure/0VQCz*64 ... 4133030105>

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:31 am

I remember doing a google search for James Dean jackets and ended up with several results... Is there any way of finding out which Dean jacket was used as a model? Was it a movie jacket or a personal jacket of Dean's? At any rate, this is a good comparison pic and the closest match I've seen.

FLATHEAD · Post by **FLATHEAD** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:14 am

Flathead, I believe nothing came between Brooke and her Calvins.

That right! My mind never really got past just looking at her. Oh,
by the way, You got the look. No, YOU got the look...

Flathead