Introducing - "THE RAIDERS CINCH"

[3thoubucks]

The 2018 Auction and Comic-Con delivered the Raiders Hat super clues. 7 1/4 stamped on the felt, folded sweat and more. I noticed the sweatband wrapped around the brim break which is now the bottom edge of the ribbon - (under the glove). It's a crescent that starts at the front of the bow and ends at Indy's right ear. The apex is where the ribbon is slid up furthest on the crown which is also where the channel in the front dent is.
I finally got around to making this hat for myself. Fedora said he made 7 3/8 hats for KOTCS, same size as 7 1/4 U.K. . Ford picks the hat up twice in that movie and slaps it on his head with one hand. A 57 is kinda snug for me a 58 kinda loose. I adjusted my 360 stovepipe block to 58 and reblocked my pre Raiders HJ. A 58 Akubra sweat band fit perfectly, and I sewed it in at the original brim break (there's lots of old holes from old reblocks as you can see).

Now the tricky part. So tricky I might be the only person to pull it off since 1981. *** Cinch the ribbon tight enough to form the channel in the front dent, with the ribbon slid up the crown same amount as the Raiders hat, and turn 1/4 inch of sweatband into brim.

I searched this forum for "tighten ribbon, tightened ribbon, cinch ribbon and cinched ribbon" in 2005 prariejones and in 2007 kaplan cinched their ribbons and got the channel. And the pics are still up. But is seems both hats didn't have sweatbands. Fedora said he cinched hats with no sweatbands for his own wear in summer, which might be where they got the idea.
I think the reason it hasn't been done before is it's extremely difficult. The felt and sweatband resist and it feels impossible. It's a lot easier with a rare stovepipe, because the ribbon doesn't automatically slide up as bad. Fedora complained he and Marc could only tighten the ribbon so much because it slid up.
I didn't think I could get a channel with a hat my size so I used larger hats. But this gets me the channel with a hat my size, with the sweat folded, and it slams the brim down and puts Raiders features in the brim.

[Canyon]

Threethou, this is an incredible discovery and allow me to be the first on COW to congratulate you!

Impressive, most impressive!

[3thoubucks]

Thanks Canyon.

[bantufo]

Images not showing.

[IJJTM]

So, just to clarify, the discovery is that the ribbon is tighter than you would normally see?

[3thoubucks]

Discovery is the sweatband became part of the brim. Explains what the dimentional cut really was. It's the only hat like it since the Raiders hat, that I've seen, so I discovered it can be done. But yeah, you're right, it's just tightenining the ribbon a lot tighter than you would normally see, slid up a little in front and in the back.

[Thunderspy]

The ribbon is tighter and higher up the crown, is that right? I'm not a hat expert so I have trouble following this!
Does 'cinch' mean tighten? I've never seen it used as a verb before

[3thoubucks]

Yes and yes. The ribbon is still down to the brim at the bow and Indy's right ear.

[Thunderspy]

So just higher at the front?

[3thoubucks]

Back too. You can see the brim break is out on the brim like in front in movie stills. The sweat may or may not be attatched in back, because you can see the sweat doesn't curve out onto the brim like in front. My sweat is unattached in back. Don't think it makes a difference but not sure

[IJJTM]

Forgot to mention, but great looking hat my guy.

[3thoubucks]

Thanks IJJTM
Anyone attempting this mod but finding it too difficult? Now you know why maybe it hasn't been seen before. I wonder if there's a secret, easy way to do it. If I could only remember what it was...Hmmmm

[Forrest For the Trees]

Are you saying that the dimensional brim is really just an artifact of the front and back of the crown being pulled down and incorporated into the brim?

[3thoubucks]

Yes Sir. But all they did was tighten the ribbon and slide it up the crown a bit in front and back.

[Kokopelli]

Yes Sir. But all they did was tighten the ribbon and slide it up the crown a bit in front and back.

whoa.

[CairoIndy]

Excellent work 3thou!
Why do you think they raised the ribbon and transitioned the crown into the brim? was it to lower the crown?(deb nadoolman did say the original hat' crown was 'a little bit too tall')
Did they raise the ribbon to make the hat look shorter?

[3thoubucks]

Yes, I think that's why CairoIndy

[Mitch LaRue]

I continue to be Blown Away (but also kinda' "not surprised") by the observations, investigation, theory and discovery that 3thoubucks has made over the years with this hat

...you always Amaze, my friend!

Incredible info!

[jlee562]

So, I am assuming the claim is that these supposed modifications were intentional and not, say, just the result of a really beat up hat losing its brim break?

Has anybody behind the scenes ever mentioned anything about making such extensive modifications to the hat?

[3thoubucks]

On the "making of" DVD the costume designer said she needed a "unique" looking hat, and as mentioned above, she said the hat she started with looked too tall. Plus, look at the bow- there are 3 pieces of stray ribbon sticking out from underneath and one stitch is stretched out. It definitely looks like it was taken apart. As I hinted at, it's not even hard to do if you know the trick.

[jlee562]

I just can't recall anywhere when Nadoolman hints at anything like detaching the sweatband in back. I think it's possible some of the distressing we see is just the natural/random effects of said distressing process and not necessarily deliberately designed. It strikes me as pretty big leap in logic to go from "this hat is too tall" to 'the crown height must have been reduced by undoing the brim break and pulling the crown into the brim.'

[eazybox]

This is interesting, but a bit hard to swallow; anyone who has bought Indy hats from HJ as far back as the late 80s, as I I have, knows that the dimensional brim cut was a known and regular component of those hats. So (at least on those post-RAIDERS hats) it wasn't just an illusion caused by an extended front and back brim. Unless I misunderstand that part of your theory. I haven't watched the Deborah Nadoolman interview lately, but as I remember it, they WANTED the RAIDERS crown to look "too tall."

But it's an interesting idea, and if true could explain why the TOD crown looked shorter (not because the original block was lost, but because the film makers ORDERED a shorter crown) and also why some of the initial HJ reboots were deemed too tall. Or, it could simply be that a greatly distressed hat naturally loses its brim break, as has happened to some of my own well-worn hats.

Jack

[3thoubucks]

I just can't recall anywhere when Nadoolman hints at anything like detaching the sweatband in back. I think it's possible some of the distressing we see is just the natural/random effects of said distressing process and not necessarily deliberately designed. It strikes me as pretty big leap in logic to go from "this hat is too tall" to 'the crown height must have been reduced by undoing the brim break and pulling the crown into the brim.'

I don't think it makes a difference if the sweat is detached in back, not sure though, this is new. I don't think the brim break was undone or the crown was pulled, they just tightened the ribbon.

[3thoubucks]

I haven't watched the Deborah Nadoolman interview lately, but as I remember it, they WANTED the RAIDERS crown to look "too tall."



Jack

I watched "making of Raiders..." that came with the triology today. Her quote- "..and the crown was a little bit too high" refering to the hat at the HJ shop.

[jlee562]

I just can't recall anywhere when Nadoolman hints at anything like detaching the sweatband in back. I think it's possible some of the distressing we see is just the natural/random effects of said distressing process and not necessarily deliberately designed. It strikes me as pretty big leap in logic to go from "this hat is too tall" to 'the crown height must have been reduced by undoing the brim break and pulling the crown into the brim.'

I don't think it makes a difference if the sweat is detached in back, not sure though, this is new. I don't think the brim break was undone or the crown was pulled, they just tightened the ribbon.

...I guess I am not following you then. Your first post starts discussing the sweatband and brim break. What connection does cinching the ribbon have to crown height?

[eazybox]

I haven't watched the Deborah Nadoolman interview lately, but as I remember it, they WANTED the RAIDERS crown to look "too tall."

Jack

I watched "making of Raiders..." that came with the triology today. Her quote- "..and the crown was a little bit too high" refering to the hat at the HJ shop.

Okay. Still doesn't prove anything, but I don't want to appear as though I'm going out of my way to prove your theory wrong-- as I said, I do find it interesting, just rather far-fetched. But I guess this whole forum could meet that description.

Jack

[IJJTM]

Maybe that's just how Swales did it back in the day, semi-shoddy, then when they went Factory for TOD and LC they made the liners more standard.

[3thoubucks]

...I guess I am not following you then. Your first post starts discussing the sweatband and brim break. What connection does cinching the ribbon have to crown height?

They tightened the ribbon and moved it quarter inch above the brim break. Anything below the ribbon just flared out because it wasn't under pressure, so the bottom of the ribbon became the new brim break, effectively. Not a real brim break. The top of the ribbon was a quarter inch closer to the top of the crown, so the crown looked shorter, and was shorter, because the bottom of the ribbon was the new brim break.

[jlee562]

...I guess I am not following you then. Your first post starts discussing the sweatband and brim break. What connection does cinching the ribbon have to crown height?

They tightened the ribbon and moved it quarter inch above the brim break. Anything below the ribbon just flared out because it wasn't under pressure, so the bottom of the ribbon became the new brim break, effectively. Not a real brim break. The top of the ribbon was a quarter inch closer to the top of the crown, so the crown looked shorter, and was shorter, because the new artificial brim break was closer to the top of the crown too.

So then the sweatband on your hat belled out from the brim break and shifted into the brim when you cinched your ribbon?

[3thoubucks]

Yes. That's it. It looks like the Comic-Con sweat. I should have posted a pic.

[Bdgsi11]

Wouldn’t a hat that fits really snug in conjunction with the turn cause the same effect as folding the sweatband?

[jlee562]

I wish there were some better pictures of the underside of the hat because I'm not so sure I'm seeing the same degree of the sweatband being rolled into the brim, so to speak.

Here are some cleaner screencaps from the Tested.com video



The one thing that did catch my eye is that the sweat looks to be installed a bit askew.

The rear part here is sunk in well past the brim break. Just spitballing/hypothesizing, but if the sweatband were crookedly installed front to back, with the reed tape riding high in the back and low in the front, the edge of the sweatband could be distorted towards the front of the brim when it was folded in half. Notice the darker areas on the circumference of the sweatband. That darker area that's not catching the light is the inside of the crown, at least that's what it definitely is on the rear of the hat where we can see how deep the sweatband sits. But we can also see this slightly darker part at the front of the hat where the sweatband is supposedly now in the brim.

Speaking of which, John Wayne also used this technique to snug up the sizing.

[3thoubucks]

Could be the sweat is detatched there. I've got about 5 inches detatched in back, but this would be a lot more. Not impossible though. First thing Ford does when he puts the hat on on top of the Well of souls is hook the back on then pull the rest down. This would keep the sweat from sliding up into the hat in back. Does the same in the biplane in Hawaii in the making of video.
Maybe it's ink from the signature. It's almost worn off. The guy he gave it too must have worn it a lot. Maybe he's the guy who unfolded the sweat. I heard it was a stuntman in Raiders. Maybe he did some post production stunts in Tunisia and sweated the ink off. Maybe it's just an area that didn't get any fullers earth.

[jlee562]

Could be the sweat is detatched there. I've got about 5 inches detatched in back, but this would be a lot more. Not impossible though. First thing Ford does when he puts the hat on on top of the Well of souls is hook the back on then pull the rest down. This would keep the sweat from sliding up into the hat in back. Does the same in the biplane in Hawaii in the making of video.

I doubt very strongly that the above picture is evidence of the sweat being detached. In my experience with hats with partially detached sweats, they do not significantly shift place upwards into the crown and stay there, especially when not being worn. I think a likelier explanation is that the sweatband was not carefully installed.

[jlee562]

What "it" are you referring to that you are claiming is the result of the ink?

I don't mean to rain on your parade, especially as your hat displays some excellent results, but I am just a bit agnostic of some of your explanations. The 'crescent' is much less apparent in other frames. Something is catching the light, so it's very possible that the sweatband is distorted in the way you describe (though as I said, the dark circumference suggests that the sweatband is in the crown). But is it the reason for the dimensional brim and was it deliberately manipulated that way by Nadoolman? That I'm not sold on, it's the most convoluted way possible to address the issue of crown height. Nadoolman says that they tried on many, many hats. Does it make sense that among the many, many, hats they saw, that they would end up picking one that still needed such a severe modification? Is it not just easier to crease the crown lower? Or keep the slightly wider ribbon on the hat? Or request a shorter crown height from HJ?

[Canyon]

Could be the sweat is detatched there. I've got about 5 inches detatched in back, but this would be a lot more. Not impossible though. First thing Ford does when he puts the hat on on top of the Well of souls is hook the back on then pull the rest down. This would keep the sweat from sliding up into the hat in back. Does the same in the biplane in Hawaii in the making of video.

Ah yes...

[3thoubucks]

Ah yes...

[3thoubucks]

The 'crescent' is much less apparent in other frames. Something is catching the light, so it's very possible that the sweatband is distorted in the way you describe (though as I said, the dark circumference suggests that the sweatband is in the crown). But is it the reason for the dimensional brim and was it deliberately manipulated that way by Nadoolman? That I'm not sold on, it's the most convoluted way possible to address the issue of crown height.

Wearing the hat would make the crescent more defined, but it hasn't been worn in 40 years. It's not convoluted. The only thing they did was tighten the ribbon, didn't even have to buy a new ribbon or detatch the old one. A dimensional cut is convoluted. I have never seen a hat other than an Indy knock-off that has a dimensional cut. You set a brim cutter to a specific width. They probably had to invent a new piece of equipment to make tons of Indy hats. For years the common knowledge around here was Richard Swales did it freehand with a scissors.

[eazybox]

The one late 80s--early 90s era HJ I still own (that Swales himself made for me) has a dimensional cut and an unevenly trimmed brim that looks as though it was done by hand with scissors, like the Prop Store auction TOD hat in the recent Adam Savage video.

Jack

[jlee562]

Dimensional brims have indeed existed in different iterations at several points in hat history.

[3thoubucks]

That one is wider on the sides, not front and back. The brim cutter is "C" shaped and will cut the brim at 2 1/2 inches at the front of the block, but the ends of the "C" contact the the block on the sides and push it further away.

If narrower sides were purposely requested for better camera shots as claimed, why didn't they do that in the next 3 movies?

Anyway, if you cinch a crown tight enough to put a channel in the front dent, it's bound to have other effects on a hat. If you can figure out how to get the channel without cinching the ribbon, that'd be great, but cinching the ribbon Raiders style creates a new brim break.

[3thoubucks]

The one late 80s--early 90s era HJ I still own (that Swales himself made for me) has a dimensional cut and an unevenly trimmed brim that looks as though it was done by hand with scissors, like the Prop Store auction TOD hat in the recent Adam Savage video.

Jack

Excelent! ... So why does the brim look perfectly even in the 3 pictures of the actual Raiders brim in this thread?

[jlee562]

That one is wider on the sides, not front and back. The brim cutter is "C" shaped and will cut the brim at 2 1/2 inches at the front of the block, but the ends of the "C" contact the the block on the sides and push it further away.

If narrower sides were purposely requested for better camera shots as claimed, why didn't they do that in the next 3 movies?

Anyway, if you cinch a crown tight enough to put a channel in the front dent, it's bound to have other effects on a hat. If you can figure out how to get the channel without cinching the ribbon, that'd be great, but cinching the ribbon Raiders style creates a new brim break.

As I said, SEVERAL iterations have existed throughout hat history. This is merely one example because you seemed to not believe they ever existed.

You do not need to explain a rounding jack to me, I own one which I use to make my own hats.

If the sides were not trimmed, why did Swales invent a whole story about it and do this for customers for decades?

[eazybox]

The one late 80s--early 90s era HJ I still own (that Swales himself made for me) has a dimensional cut and an unevenly trimmed brim that looks as though it was done by hand with scissors, like the Prop Store auction TOD hat in the recent Adam Savage video.

Jack

Excelent! ... So why does the brim look perfectly even in the 3 pictures of the actual Raiders brim in this thread?

Does it? Hard to tell for sure. The effect is not extreme or erratic, but can clearly be seen in the photos of the Cairo hat from the auction of a few years back.

Jack

[3thoubucks]

[quote="jlee562"]
If the sides were not trimmed, why did Swales invent a whole story about it and do this for customers for decades?[/quote]

The first views of the Raiders hat filmed were the Bantu Wind dock, (see the daytime still of Ford sitting and Steven standing by) and the tarantula and "Forrestal" shots. The hat hadn't been turned yet, so the look was still a work in progress. Obviously Swales was out of the picture at that point. I think a wardrobe person cinched the ribbon and Swales never knew about it. He didn't talk about the cinch or the turn. Later, people were asking for a wider brim in front so he gave it to 'em. If he refused it would be like a Monty Python skit. He probably did cut brims with a cutter, from 3 inches down to 2 3/4. Deb said the brim was VERY wide, and Fedora said Swales started with 3" brim Poets. Maybe he believed he accidentally cut the Raiders dimensional cut when the cutter had a glitch, because he didn't know how to explain it otherwise.

[3thoubucks]

Hard to tell for sure. The effect is not extreme or erratic, but can clearly be seen in the photos of the Cairo hat from the auction of a few years back.

Jack

The brim is wavy, which could be mistaken for a spotty scissors cut from certain angles.

http://indygear.com/images/gear/fedora/ ... edora3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jack, if you post some pics of the Swales cut, it would probably be the first time it's been documented at COW! Brim measurements would also be instructive.

[eazybox]

Hard to tell for sure. The effect is not extreme or erratic, but can clearly be seen in the photos of the Cairo hat from the auction of a few years back.

Jack

The brim is wavy, which could be mistaken for scissors damage from certain angles. http://indygear.com/images/gear/fedora/ ... edora3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Jack, if you post some pics of the Swales cut, it would probably be the first time it's been documented at COW!

I was afraid someone would ask me that. Posting pics here is an involved process, and unfortunately I'm one of those tech-challenged older guys. I did manage-- with some difficulty-- to get a pic of my HJ reboot on here a few years back-- with the assistance of a mod, who kindly transformed the link I was able to post into an actual photo. There is a pic of my Swales HJ somewhere, but alongside a Christy's Adventurer for comparison, and probably not close enough to show the Swales cut. Anyway, in person my hat's brim cut can't be mistaken for waviness, and looks just like the TOD brim in the Adam Savage Prop Store video. It's possible that not all my LC era Poets had the Swales cut (because they were not all made by Swales) but those hats are in other hands now, and I can't recall. Wasn't that aware of the feature in those days.

Jack

[jlee562]

If the sides were not trimmed, why did Swales invent a whole story about it and do this for customers for decades?

The first views of the Raiders hat filmed were the Bantu Wind dock, (see the daytime still of Ford sitting and Steven standing by) and the tarantula and "Forrestal" shots. The hat hadn't been turned yet, so the look was still a work in progress. Obviously Swales was out of the picture at that point. I think a wardrobe person cinched the ribbon and Swales never knew about it. He didn't talk about the cinch or the turn. Later, people were asking for a wider brim in front so he gave it to 'em. If he refused it would be like a Monty Python skit. He probably did cut brims with a cutter, from 3 inches down to 2 3/4. Deb said the brim was VERY wide, and Fedora said Swales started with 3" brim Poets. Maybe he believed he accidentally cut the Raiders dimensional cut when the cutter had a glitch, because he didn't know how to explain it otherwise.

14 edits on that post, eh?

This is all nothing but conjecture. Maybe he didn't mention the cinch because it doesn't exist? Also, contradicting yourself. If the cinch was done by Nadoolman or some anon wardrobe guy during production, Swales would have no reason to know about it or talk about it. And when/if the hat was cinched has NOTHING to do with whether the brim was trimmed by Swales or no.

If you're trying to rewrite the history of the hat as we know it, you're going to have to bring more to the table than a picture you took of your computer screen (a picture that is contradicted by actual screencaps no less).

Ok, I will edit my post to add if you look at where the signature is on the sweatband, the "Ford" ends just below the edge of the side crease (right ear). This puts it on the edge of the crescent you are claiming is evident in your picture of your monitor. But the sweatband is clearly well inside the crown here. If any portion of the sweatband has somehow been shifted into the brim, it's clearly not as significant as you are claiming.

[Illinois_Jones]

I tend to take a view of sort of a version of Occam's Razor or Hanlon's Razor which is basically "don't ascribe to design that which is more easily explained by accident." Especially with regard to the Raiders hat. There was some degree of intention there, but also a high degree of randomness. We're evaluating images of a 40 year old hat that saw a significant amount of abuse and what was likely a period of improper storage etc. And we all know they basically didn't have the number of hats they should have had for production, and I don't think they could have known at the time, so they made do with what they had and made some adjustments as they went.

AFAIK, they were fairly normal Richard Swales Poets. There may have been a few quirks and even some errors in manufacture, but to think that the signs of wear and tear and repair and other stuff we see on the remaining hats is a result of design is a bit of a stretch.

And that hat with the cinched ribbon does look good, btw.

[eazybox]

And that hat with the cinched ribbon does look good, btw.

Yes, that's something I neglected to mention in my comments, and I'm happy to correct it now-- great looking hat, despite the theoretical twists and "turns."

Jack