Is Herbert Johnson the holy grail of indy fedoras now?

NoBadDates · Post by **NoBadDates** » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:13 am

IJJTM wrote:Thank you for clearing things up Michelle, and I’m sorry for spreading misinformation.

Not your fault my friend. I did have words with the management over the offer text not being clear enough. Not to worry as there will indeed be other offers to come. Stay tuned!

And I am always thankful for Indy fans sharing the joy and the opportunities to collect more gear so thank you for the share!

I am looking to get a new whip next so I will keeping my eyes peeled for that. Do PM me if anyone has anything

Seasons greetings everyone!
M

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:05 am

Mulceber wrote:A Penman? Absolutely. Also probably an S&J. I would take the Penman over the HJ any day as I think the construction is better, and either of them over the HJ if I was looking to replicate a specific scene, as I don't think HJ has really mastered that. HJ has the pedigree and their materials are top notch, but I wouldn't call them the holy grail of Indy fedoras. They're another dog in the pack.

What size was your Herbert Johnson?

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:49 am

7 1/2 (60 cm). Why do you ask?

jgino · Post by **jgino** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:50 am

I'm in the process of selling my entire collection of hats, basically I just ran out of room. I'm only keeping two hats, one Herbert Johnson and one Penman. Both are beautiful, great built hats but I still say the HJ crown is just too tall, the penman for me personally is just right.

jgino · Post by **jgino** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:58 am

Mulceber wrote:
IJJTM wrote:
Mulceber wrote:I've also owned a bunch of these: ABL legacy from Penman, HJ reboot in rabbit by Jack, a couple original ABs, and a couple garrison hats. Of them, Penman tops out my list. HJ was a good hat, but the crown was too tall no matter how I bashed it.
Could you possibly post a picture with your Penman, ABL, and HJ together?
I actually can't because my Penman and ABL are one and the same, and I sold the Herbert Johnson late last year. Here are a couple separate photos of the ABL and HJ though:

Herbert Johnson:

Penman ABL:

Perfect example of what I just posted, the HJ crown is a little too high compared to Penman.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:47 am

Agreed - it's even more egregious from the side. That said, mine was purchased in the first months after HJ revamped their offerings, so it's entirely possible they've ironed out that kink by now.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:59 am

Mulceber wrote:7 1/2 (60 cm). Why do you ask?

I was wondering because I remember you saying that you thought it was too tall.

Illinois_Jones · Post by **Illinois_Jones** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:42 am

It doesn't necessarily look too high for the size, but the thing that betrays it is the ribbon doesn't seem wide enough for that height. But just slightly; just a few mm would do it. It would be awesome if millinery ribbon came in more incremental widths, but alas we only have what we have. But at least you can always crease it deeper and lower it some.

My basic philosophy with the Indy hat is that because Ford was a 58, the sweet spot in terms of *extreme* screen accuracy is in the 57-58-59 range. 60 and above or 56 and below and you're generally going to have to make some concessions somewhere. But at least too high is easily tweaked with a shot of steam and fingers.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:24 pm

IMHO, strict screen accuracy is overrated when we are specifically talking about the Indy hat. It is better to wear a hat that suits one's build than one that is 100% accurate to the dimensions of what Ford had on his head.

Don't know what's going on with the high crowns on bigger sizes, but my 56cm Poet worked out great.

Forrest For the Trees · Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:56 pm

There's a lot of personal preference here as well. I think clear communication when you order the hat would be good. You could probably specify crown height within reason. The proper crown height and brim width should be tailored to each person's head size and shape.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:16 pm

Illinois_Jones wrote:My basic philosophy with the Indy hat is that because Ford was a 58, the sweet spot in terms of *extreme* screen accuracy is in the 57-58-59 range. 60 and above or 56 and below and you're generally going to have to make some concessions somewhere. But at least too high is easily tweaked with a shot of steam and fingers.

Sorry, I don't think that holds up. The Penman is the same size (actually a bit bigger - when I first got it, it was a bit loose) and it manages to look both more screen accurate and just fits my face better. The plain fact is that the early HJ reboots, when they scaled above Ford's size, increased the crown height too drastically. I spent weeks messing around with the bash, trying to get it both to be the right height and the right shape, and it was simply a no-go. They very well may have fixed this since then, and I wish them the best in that, but saying that the problem is my head size is a weak attempt to defend HJ from what is, in the grand scheme of things, a mild criticism of their earlier work. I say it's a weak defense, because hatmakers adjust for large head sizes all the time. Go look at some pictures of anything from a Penman to an Akubra in a 7 1/2 or 7 5/8. They all manage to make it work.

IndianaJustin · Post by **IndianaJustin** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:15 pm

These last 3 posts make sense to me. I've seen some great looking hats...then when they're put on something doesn't seem right.

NoBadDates · Post by **NoBadDates** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:13 am

Mulceber wrote:
Illinois_Jones wrote:My basic philosophy with the Indy hat is that because Ford was a 58, the sweet spot in terms of *extreme* screen accuracy is in the 57-58-59 range. 60 and above or 56 and below and you're generally going to have to make some concessions somewhere. But at least too high is easily tweaked with a shot of steam and fingers.
Sorry, I don't think that holds up. The Penman is the same size (actually a bit bigger - when I first got it, it was a bit loose) and it manages to look both more screen accurate and just fits my face better. The plain fact is that the early HJ reboots, when they scaled above Ford's size, increased the crown height too drastically. I spent weeks messing around with the bash, trying to get it both to be the right height and the right shape, and it was simply a no-go. They very well may have fixed this since then, and I wish them the best in that, but saying that the problem is my head size is a weak attempt to defend HJ from what is, in the grand scheme of things, a mild criticism of their earlier work. I say it's a weak defense, because hatmakers adjust for large head sizes all the time. Go look at some pictures of anything from a Penman to an Akubra in a 7 1/2 or 7 5/8. They all manage to make it work.

Mulceber I have the same gripe myself over some early reboots so please feel free to be critical of those times past.
Forrest for the Trees - I agree with you that the key to creating a hat that fits and suits a client is communication! Always.

I agree that there can always be a balance between getting that screen accuracy some crave but also working with proper proportion and the wearer's face and what suits them. I have made sizes 54cm right up to a recent 66cm and the only giveaway of them appearing small or large is not the hat itself but the ribbon being a fixed 38mm. You can play about with brim width and open crown heights and pinch heights but at the end of the day it really needs to suit the person wearing it and they feel comfortable to do so. A hat belongs on a head and not all of us are Ford doubles - certainly not me!

Oh and by the way - new offer on over at Instagram for anyone interested!

Seasons greetings to you all!
Michelle

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:23 am

Thanks Michelle! I'm glad to hear this issue was resolved. My criticism wasn't meant as a dig against your current offerings - I follow HJ on instagram and all of the hats I've seen in the last few years have looked fantastic.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:59 pm

Indiana_Nate wrote:Brace yourself Castor, #3 is ordered, and I am now anxiously awaiting those first creation pics from Michelle. Poetic indeed, my friend, poetic indeed! I spent the better part of the day yesterday corresponding with Michelle on how I want it to look. Something about ordering a new hat makes me giddy as a schoolboy.

Here are some links to my hats as well:

Raiders Poet
https://www.instagram.com/p/B40EeWDpqC-/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.instagram.com/p/B5p5eD2JH_8/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Clipper Poet
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7oCvQZpBRM/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9REDqqpI-9/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Indiana Nate.. I've been in touch with Michelle... I'm having difficulty deciding on sable or deep sable. Which is the color of your Raiders poet?

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:56 pm

I'll throw my two cents in here because MY HAT HAS ARRIVED! $\:D/$

I don't have nice photos yet but hopefully by the weekend I'll be able to post a few. I did a Raiders poet in Deep Sable Beaver which is why it took a little longer than usual because they had to wait for a restock on that felt. I am the above mentioned 66cm hat (technically 65.75 cm). For context I am 6'5" tall and fairly athletic in build. I also like my hats to sit a little lower toward my ear and more secure than most folks I'd imagine. So when we were discussing crown height, I opted for a 5-inch tall crown. I know that it's too tall for true screen accuracy but it looks proportional to my face and build. And honestly, it's my hat. Not Indy's. It looks great on me. In another divergence, I opted for a subtle turn. It's definitely turned and looks like Raiders but it doesn't have that huge brim warp that some people like. Again, I think it looks better on me. It comes down to how it looks on you in my opinion. Sadly, Harrison Ford we ain't.

All that aside, this hat is amazing. The Deep Sable is gorgeous and light but dense. Michelle styled it perfectly. I've had it only for a few days so again I can't speak to general ruggedness but the stitching, construction, and felt are top notch so I have exactly 0 worries. Michelle and her team are a dream to work with, answering every question and concern quickly and thoroughly.

As far as the original question goes, the HJ is definitely now my Holy Grail. I sadly cannot compare it to a Penman (maybe one day), but I am 100% confident that it would be neck and neck. Some may question the price (I know my wife did

) but honestly, with HJ you definitely get the best.

Thank you Michelle!!!

Pictures to come soon.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:12 am

Deep Sable beaver is a thing now?

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:55 pm

Restocked in early November! I preordered during their summer sale and had to wait for it to get back in.

NoBadDates · Post by **NoBadDates** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:59 am

Ranger36 thank you for your kind words and lovely review! It was a pleasure creating for you and I am looking forward to the photos and seeing it on you!

The deep sable beaver felt is brand new and just arrived after a lengthy order wait since June. It is beautiful, lightweight, flexible and dense and I am very pleased with the specs I ordered it in with and will most assuredly be keeping this felt in stock and restocking exactly this weight, finish and colour when I need to. I have yet had time to get a sample up and photographed for product photos for the web but I plan to very soon. Bear with me as it is that busiest time of year!

Anyone wanting to order this felt can do so by contacting the enquires page here enquiries-hj@herbert-johnson.co.uk

Toodles!
M
x

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:24 am

Yesterday HJ posted a picture on their Instagram that says next year they will be releasing a limited edition hat to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Raiders. Now I’ll probably be waiting till next year to pick up one of their hats.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:17 pm

^ Interesting. Do we have any details on how it will be different than their current offerings? I was going to pull the trigger soon on a Beaver Deep Sable, but I wonder what the difference will be? A licensed piece? An off the rack hat?

Should I wait? I hate making big decisions.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:32 pm

I’m in your same boat, I asked them and they said “stay tuned”. I have no evidence to back this up, but my best guess is that they will try to make it exactly the same as they made it back in 1980 with the same liner that has the certain font and IJ on the side. That’s my best guess, I’m hoping they announce it soon.

Forrest For the Trees · Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:20 pm

IJJTM wrote:Yesterday HJ posted a picture on their Instagram that says next year they will be releasing a limited edition hat to commemorate the 40th anniversary of Raiders. Now I’ll probably be waiting till next year to pick up one of their hats.

Looking forward to finding out more details about this!

drftfan · Post by **drftfan** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:21 pm

They did? I didn't see anything. Was it in their story?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:35 pm

It was on their post with the code to get 10% off of Crusade and Clipper hats. On the first picture above the fireplace it says “40th Anniversary of Raiders of the Lost Ark Limited Edition Hat Coming 2021”.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:30 pm

IJJTM wrote:I’m in your same boat, I asked them and they said “stay tuned”. I have no evidence to back this up, but my best guess is that they will try to make it exactly the same as they made it back in 1980 with the same liner that has the certain font and IJ on the side. That’s my best guess, I’m hoping they announce it soon.

Me too. I was hoping to use one of the advent discounts, but now am feeling like I should wait and see what this is. Could be worth the difference in any discount. Or not.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 6:47 pm

Same, but if they have a really good discount I’ll probably go with their Raiders turn in sable.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:59 pm

Don’t like the deep sable? I’ve been back and forth.

drftfan · Post by **drftfan** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:18 pm

Oh I see it now... ####. Now what to do?

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:22 pm

I like the deep sable, but that’s more of a Last Crusade color while sable is more of a Raiders look.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:29 am

Just an FYI if you are interested in getting a Herbert Johnson, tomorrow might be the day, apparently they have a “BIG OFFER”coming up tomorrow, so keep an eye out.

Forrest For the Trees · Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:46 pm

Pretty sure the deep sable color is based on vintage examples of the brown felt used during the Raider's era at HJ. I think it is probably a close match to the hats used when filming Raiders, but due to studio lighting, color balance, and direct sun, etc. what we see on screen appears to be lighter in many scenes. Kind of like how everyone thought Han's jacket in Empire was navy blue, but it turns out it was charcoal gray.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:54 pm

Yeah, that’s what they told me, but on top of that, to my eyes the Raiders hats look to be a lighter color compared to the other films.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:44 pm

I don’t do Instagram, are these specials also going to be offered on their site?

Croft

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:37 pm

They are offered on their site, but the code itself will be on their Instagram and probably their Facebook

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 12:44 pm

10% off is active now.

I seriously cannot decide what to do.

Sable/ Dark Sable?

Wait for the 40th Anniversary Edition?

Ugh.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:08 pm

Here’s my two cents, the 40th anniversary won’t come out till spring and the only major difference I see happening is on the inside of the hat. If you aren’t going with Raiders, get deep sable. If you want a Raiders I would recommend Sable as that is what the color looked like onscreen, but deep sable is supposedly the actual color it was. Like Forrest said, it’s like Han’s ESB jacket, some people like it blue as it was shown onscreen, while others prefer black as it was in reality. I’d go with sable.

Charybdis · Post by **Charybdis** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:44 pm

I always say go with what was onscreen.

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 2:36 pm

I’ll throw in my two cents and say that I did deep sable for my Raiders because I know with time it should fade just enough to be the perfect color. Plus it’s just pretty.

Forrest For the Trees · Thu Dec 24, 2020 3:44 pm

Ranger36 wrote:I’ll throw in my two cents and say that I did deep sable for my Raiders because I know with time it should fade just enough to be the perfect color. Plus it’s just pretty.

Second this. If I were buying one of these, I'd go with Deep Sable. Great looking color, and matches what I see in the Idol Grab scene, which is my favorite Raiders hat. If I were going Streets of Cairo, I'd probably want Sable.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 4:21 pm

Darn, now I keep going back and forth about getting an HJ rabbit, ABL Raider, or an ABL KOTCS, anyone got advice to help me on the decision?

IndianaJustin · Post by **IndianaJustin** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:03 pm

How bout you get all 3 and do a comparison for us?

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:26 pm

IJJTM wrote:Darn, now I keep going back and forth about getting an HJ rabbit, ABL Raider, or an ABL KOTCS, anyone got advice to help me on the decision?

I am all over the place too. I don't feel like I'm in the right place to make such an expensive decision, despite the savings.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:27 pm

IndianaJustin wrote:How bout you get all 3 and do a comparison for us?

I wish I had the funds to do so.

drftfan · Post by **drftfan** » Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:11 pm

I just paid for a Raiders turn in sable. Took alot for me to buy it especially since I just bought a gray Advintage Harrison as well. But I want the original. I reached out to a few other hatmakers and I only heard back from one. As a maker myself in a different medium that was a little disappointing. The discount wasn't my personal deciding factor but it did help.
I reached out to Michelle to let me know when she is back so we can discuss specifics prior to them starting on it. I want to confirm my size in her opinion as well the overall style. She has been fantastic in regards to discussing my purchase prior to doing so.
Plus the idea of waiting 6 months or longer didn't appeal to me.

Hedji · Post by **Hedji** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:38 pm

I still couldn’t decide... deep sable or sable.

So many swirling thoughts.
I could get the Beaver in Deep Sable, and maybe the 40th Edition Rabbit in Sable.

Do I need more than one fedora?

Ultimately, I didn’t order last night because I feared no matter what, I’d question my decision.

Also, my own fault for not checking sooner, but HJ doesn’t accept PayPal, which is where my “play” funds are. To put it on the family credit card would be to risk having my heart ripped out and lowered into a hot pit, or being chopped into fish bait. I will have to figure out a way to pay under the radar.

To Michelle, I apologize... I WILL be ordering. It’s just a matter of when (this year) and what kind.

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:01 pm

Same here, now I’m leaning more towards the ABL hats, but I could just change my decision again at the drop of a hat.

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 5:57 pm

IJJTM I have a ABL SOC from Penman, and well I love it. true to screen appearance, minus the mushroom affect that I’ve only see advantage make.

These days there’s to many choice, to many. I’m getting another hat for my collection, just don’t which and finding out the HJ doesn’t do PP........

Good luck to all who are try to figure whose hat to buy. I’m in the same boat.

Croft

IJJTM · Post by **IJJTM** » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:11 pm

Indiana Croft wrote:IJJTM I have a ABL SOC from Penman, and well I love it. true to screen appearance, minus the mushroom affect that I’ve only see advantage make.

These days there’s to many choice, to many. I’m getting another hat for my collection, just don’t which and finding out the HJ doesn’t do PP........

Good luck to all who are try to figure whose hat to buy. I’m in the same boat.

Croft

Thank you for the kind words, do you happen to have pictures of your hat that you would be willing to share?

Indiana Croft · Post by **Indiana Croft** » Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:11 pm

Well not to derail.
Hat is oh about 7 yrs old, thinking of sending it in for a cleaning and re-block, by the picture it doesn't really need it, but the back brim does get wonky, it is a rabbet felt, not beaver so if it's going to rain, I don't wear it. Been caught in some drizzle only, beaver for RAIN and beaver felt can take it.
Here's one I took this summer, 2020

From when I got it. 2014

Side shot

Croft