Considering a whip on my walks - almost dog attacked 3x

[AttyOzzy]

Today we had very nice weather. I decided to go for walk. I was almost attacked by two dogs that escaped from their back yard. I froze with my hand on my 1911 which is always my walking companion. The dogs got within 4 feet of me and stopped. I stood there frozen and thinking to myself that I did not want to get myself arrested for discharging a firearm, or reckless conduct in a residential area, etc. I also did not want to destroy two family pets as the owner lazily exited her front door in a bathrobe. Dogs retreated. No apology from owner. I walked on.

I no sooner made it to the hiking trail in town. A nice wooded area. Once again I cam face to face with a large angry dog. This one was bearing teeth and running at me. I saw the owner (different dog - different owner) run after it. This dog got way too close and almost met a swift end. As it came within snapping distance I yelled "whoa". The dog retreated. Owner never said a word. Had a loved one or a child been with me this dog would have met a fate analogous to the Cairo Swordsman's.

So here is my question. I obviously dont want to hurt animals. And clearly I am not inclined to exact lethal force when faced with a snarling dog.

Anyone think I have lost my mind in comsidering a bullwhip on my walks? I am not particularly comforted by the closeness one must have tonan animal to deploy mace.

Thank you all. This has been bothering me all day. I not a sensitive type and I dont scare easy - but three dogs (not poodles either!) in a matter of an hour - and neither owner even giving a toss.

Your collective and individual words and wisdom is respectfully requested.

Thank you!

[Chewbacca Jones]

Unless you're and expert at fighting with a whip, I doubt it would help you. The mace will be more effective. Plus, you might get in trouble for wandering the streets with a bullwhip.
If you carry one of those little pocket whips in your hand, and can crack it fast, that might scare a dog off due to the noise.

My father dealt with the same issues (from dogs and owners) as a walking letter carrier. He taught me a thing or two.
1. If using mace or a similar spray, don't stop spraying until the dog backs off, or you empty the can.
2. A bag, backpack, or briefcase makes a good shield. Placing that between you and a dog might cause it to pause. If not, better the bag gets bitten than you. (Consider slinging a pack over one shoulder, filled with old towels or the like, when you go on your walks).
3. A sturdy walking stick or cane. It's legal, it's long, and makes a good non-lethal weapon in a pinch. Many dogs will back off at the sight of a brandished stick.
4. If the same dog or owner becomes a recurring problem, report them to the police, or the homeowners society if it in that sort of community.

[Michaelson]

...Also, if you have to smack the dog, aim for the nose. It's the most sensitive part on the animal.

They usually back away when that is done.

Regards, and stay safe!

Michaelson

[Cajunkraut]

I've had similar problems as a jogger.

Ixnay on the whip. One of the perceptions will be that you were proactively preparing to injure an animal with it. Most aggressive dogs can close the distance and get a bite in faster than you can effectively deploy it anyway. Pepper spray and/or a golf club or walking stick seem to be the walker/jogger standard. Remember that pepper spray doesn't always achieve the desired results, and is often painfully (pun intended) messy for the person deploying it and anyone else in the vicinity.

Make sure you get a police report and document seeking medical attention immediately after any incident.

I like dogs as much as the next guy. But if you think one of those irresponsible, unapologetic pet owners is gonna admit that their pooch would ever threaten anyone enough to make them fear for their safety, think again. They and their attorneys WILL play the victim card after you justifiably defend yourself.

[Michaelson]

Years ago I had the same situation with a dog in our neighborhood who was sneaking up on my daughters walking to school and biting them.

I started walking with them and it tried to do it to me. I had my walking stick. Needless to say, it never tried that again, but while talking to our police chief about the situation, HE told me to 'shoot the @#$% thing. I'll back you 100%!"

Fortunately it never came to that as the family moved out of the area, but it was a bit disturbing to have the chief tell me to just put it down and forget it.

Regards! M

[ChrisMD]

I would stick to the 1911 honestly. Style points by the way..(ok I'm biased). Some sort of OC spray is an option but remember you spray it you also receive it. It isn't fun being sprayed. And many times with animals it isn't an instant fix. My advice is some sort of walking stick or the like and keep the 1911 for an absolute last resort. I too have found myself in the scary dog situation and making lots of noise with a big stick helps most of the time. Good luck!

[backstagejack]

I definitely wouldn't use a bullwhip.... and even a gun might be considered too much only because I can see all kind of legal battles. The number one thing you don't want is for YOU to seem like the wacko that's out to harm animals. Your actions, and carrying around weapons (especially something as out of place as a whip) can easily be misconstrued, especially if no one has complained about this owner/animal before.

I'd personally tell animal control/police about it and have them speak with the owner, which would then start a paper trail (hopefully) that you could then use to back your claims up if any thing happens and you are required to harm the animal. Then I'd carry a stick and/or carry Bear Mace

Then the 1911 but only if it's the absolute last resort.

If all else fails.... though you shouldn't have too, you can always find other places to walk.

[AttyOzzy]

Thank you all very much. I appreciate your advice, and I will abide. I am very grateful that I have a community whereby I can speak freely and express some
concerns without fear of ridicule.

You want to hear something ironic - and unfortunate. As I was driving home tonight (not more than 24 hours after my original post) I witnessed some poor dog get hit by a car. Apparently the owner decided to let it out near a main road without supervision. Terrible.

I plan on attending my next town council meeting to voice my concerns about lax dog ownership in my town.

I am truly appreciative and humbled by my new friends on this site. I am pleased to be amongst all of you.

[Tibor]

Here's a nice choice in a style that fits the purpose:

http://www.fashionablecanes.com/80470.h ... aQodIfgITg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Indiana Jeff]

Good suggestion for a cane.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[ChrisMD]

Get a sword cane like Oswald Cobblepot! Not THAT's functional style...I could almost see Michaelson using one.

[Michaelson]

[Tennessee Smith]

Here's a nice choice in a style that fits the purpose:

http://www.fashionablecanes.com/80470.h ... aQodIfgITg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's the one!!!!

[AttyOzzy]

All very helpful suggestions. Thank you!

[darthjones2]

Yes! I had been doing this for years (until my dog died However, just the sound of it would keep the other dogs away usually. Never had to actually hit them but then again never ran into anything like a truly huge, overly violent animal. Attacks? Yes. But only once from a feral dog which was middsized.

[chenricy]

poor guy is trying to find any excuse he can to carry a whip (I would assume a dream of all of us) and you guys poo-poo him. I say good enough for me, don that fedora, find a whip holder that won't let the whip move as you walk (good luck with that btw) and use the dogs as an excuse if someone asks. If you get arrested we can start a gofund! account for you here

[backstagejack]

..... find a whip holder that won't let the whip move as you walk (good luck with that btw)....

I've found that the double wrap whip holders that Wade Egan used to sell worked pretty well in this regards. Not sure if he's still selling or other's have the design....

[Nearadyn]

To all the people worried about the legal issues of using a whip to defend yourself against dogs or people... Legal issues are irrelevant. You use what you have. It's ALWAYS better to be answering a few questions than horribly injured or dead. Always.
I started using a whip when I was 11 years old. I'm 37 now. I've carried my whip regularly for many years, and used it. I've had to use it for self defense twice. Once against a dog and once against a man. To me my whip has always been a very real and valuable weapon, not a movie collectable.
The dog incident was back when I worked as a camp counselor at a boy scout camp around 1998 I think. I carried my David Morgan whip on my belt everywhere. It entertained the scouts, it relieved boredom, it gave me some exercise, and one day it saved my hide. I was taking my students on a hike where they had to identify different plants correctly. A mean nasty stray dog came down the trail growling and snarling at us. I told the students to get well behind me. The dog came at me just as I got my whip off my belt and behind me. I landed a crack across it's face, cutting it. It yelped a lot, turned, and ran off. I know had I not had my whip and known how to use it well, either me or the kids would've ended up torn up at the least. That dog meant business, but so did I.
The incident with the man was about 3 or 4 years ago. I was living in Texas at the time. I was driving my Jeep to meet up with a friend. I just happened to have my whip on the passenger seat since I was getting to practice in on some dandelion heads earlier. I parked on the side of the street in town and was doing something on my phone. Maybe texting him or something. A guy who looked drunk came up to my window and asked if I would give him money. I said "no". He kept pestering me. I told him to "get away from my car". He then yelled things which are unrepeatable here at me and opened my door. I usually carry a gun. But didn't have it then for some reason. I grabbed my whip and used the handle like a club to begin beating him in the face and punched him a few times. He staggered back. I got out of the jeep punched him a few more times in the gut. Then I took a few steps back and began peeling flesh from bone with my bullwhip. I don't know how many times I cracked him with it. Pretty much did it until I was tired of doing it. The whole time he was screaming in the fetal position on the ground like a baby with bloody welts all over his arms and face where I was hitting him. He should thank the gods above that I was kind enough not to aim for his eyeballs. I could have if I had wanted to. But when I felt he had had enough. I quickly got back in the Jeep and sped away. Had I not had the whip, would I have lived? Probably.. he didn't have a weapon and I'm 6'3", reasonably strong, and I don't have a belly. But having the whip and knowing how to use it right made things a heck of a lot easier for me.
I was able to use my whip and come out on top in those situations because I do know how to use it very well. For many many years now, when I'm bored or want exercise, I've gone outside and practiced target cracking and quickdrawing it. I always practice getting it off my belt and onto very small targets as lightning fast as possible. I do this sometimes for hours on end. If you have this kind of whip practice under your belt and don't just collect them, then I would say carrying the whip as a weapon is an excellent idea. Don't worry about what other people think. Do worry about it if they think it's silly or not useful. A whip, like a pistol or a knife, is just exactly as useful as the person using it. And if you don't have the training and you don't practice several times a week, then I'd say leave the whip hanging on your wall and carry a gun like everybody else. But even a rolled up magazine or newspaper can put a man on the ground if you know what you're doing with it.
But as for me, when I go hiking on the trails in the woods behind my house, I carry my 20 year old David Morgan Indy whip and my .45 auto. There's no cell phone service out here, and hardly any people at all. My whip is more "distressed" than any film prop. It's dark brown with dirt and grease and the handle is nearly black where oils from my hand soaked in. It's all scratched up all over and the knob on the handle has a flat spot on it where I nearly cracked that one bum's skull with it years ago. (this makes my OCD tingle but there's no way to fix it) It's seen real adventures and saved my butt. Yours might do the same for you.

[Woodsrunner79]

While I agree with 90% of what Nearadyn says I offer a word of caution.

The adage "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 " is it often used as an excusable defense for bad judgment. Knowing when to stop and how to do only the NECESSERY damage is often more useful then the " give'm both barrels" approach.

So, wether it's a gun, knife, whip, cane, katana or tiger tank. Practice. Practice not just till you're comfortable or lethal but till you can use "it" in all levels of defence.

[backstagejack]

While I agree with 90% of what Nearadyn says I offer a word of caution.

The adage "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 " is it often used as an excusable defense for bad judgment. Knowing when to stop and how to do only the NECESSERY damage is often more useful then the " give'm both barrels" approach.

So, wether it's a gun, knife, whip, cane, katana or tiger tank. Practice. Practice not just till you're comfortable or lethal but till you can use "it" in all levels of defence.

Agreed. Unless you have years of experience with a whip like Nearadyn or Anthony Delongis, it's not the best weapon to try and use for defense, especially as it's not actually intended as a defensive weapon.

Also, again. Carry a whip or not. If there have been no complaints about these dogs in the past and someone with a whip seriously injures a dog, there will be more than just "a few questions" asked.

In the right or not, a guy that walks into a park or trail and is then seen beating a dog with no prior history of complaints with a freaking bullwhip will be in serious trouble.

You can say all day long you were defending yourself but unless there are witnesses or bite marks or a video of the dog attacking you....... the guy with a whip will be seen as the weirdo out to harm animals.

"Fluffy was just being friendly and this psycho pulls out a whip and starts beating him, officer." will be much more believable than, "this dog attacked me and I pulled out my bullwhip for protection."

A case could easily be made for "intent to harm" by carrying around a very unconventional weapon and using it on animals.



Perception is reality. In this lawsuit day and age, I'd first make sure the establish a paper trail. Make complaints to the right authorities. Then carry a proper defensive weapon and only use a gun if you have literally no other choice. JMO.

[Cajunkraut]

I got out of the jeep punched him a few more times in the gut. Then I took a few steps back and began peeling flesh from bone with my bullwhip. I don't know how many times I cracked him with it. Pretty much did it until I was tired of doing it. The whole time he was screaming in the fetal position on the ground like a baby with bloody welts all over his arms and face where I was hitting him. He should thank the gods above that I was kind enough not to aim for his eyeballs. I could have if I had wanted to. But when I felt he had had enough. I quickly got back in the Jeep and sped away.

I'm a staunch supporter of the rights to self defense and being armed. That said, I'll play devil's advocate here.

Based on your account, the first question any investigator/prosecutor/Grand Jury would ask is what prevented you from simply driving away. The second would be why you exited the vehicle after you initially repelled the attacker. Use of force is generally considered reasonable only until the threat has ceased. A defensive victim-turned-offensive aggressor can rarely claim self-defense. The third question would ask what prompted you to flee the scene after the attacker was subdued and severely injured.

Just bringing the potential issues to light so that other readers can consider every consequence in similar situations.

[JohnnyD97]

So yeah, that story quickly went from self-defense to a full blown assault.

[Glenville86]

During the end of my Army career, a Guy I knew carried a ball bat when he ran since he had a couple big dogs chase him prior to that. It was a smaller bat and not a regulation one.

Had another city guy in Germany run across a wild boar outside the base. He never went back in the woods after that....

[ChrisMD]

So yeah, that story quickly went from self-defense to a full blown assault.

Yep. After 6 years in LE, I can say with 100% certainty if the police rolled up on that there would be no talking out of it. You never, ever get out of the vehicle. If you can flee, you flee. Especially from a beggar with no vehicle. If he put his hands on you...drive away and call it in.

That being said, self defense is absolutely your right, but with that comes avoiding it all together if possible. Situational awareness, risk mitigation, and avoidance. Hence the drive away part. OP I would get some mace and try to find a class. Sometimes local PDs will teach them. If you have a CCW use it but remember: the tool is only as effective as the training of the individual using it. Training, training, training with whatever you choose.

[cm289]

With apologies to Indy, no whip will ever be as good a dog repellent as a walking stick and a gun.

My friend was walking his dog along a ditch bank near his house when two pit bulls attacked his dog and drug it into a ditch. Tough old Viet Nam vet that he is, he was able to fight them off with a small pocket knife. Basically he stabbed them repeatedly while they were latched onto his dog. He was very lucky that they never turned on him. His dog survived with some lacerations and bite wounds; the pits were euthanized by Animal Control.

A whip might be useful against a single dog. If one has lots of practice, has room to swing it, and gets to use it while still on one's feet. But a stick can be used by almost anyone, with no practice, and while on the ground. And a gun comes in very handy against multiple attackers, be they canine or human.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tibor]

The incident with the man was about 3 or 4 years ago. I was living in Texas at the time. I was driving my Jeep to meet up with a friend. I just happened to have my whip on the passenger seat since I was getting to practice in on some dandelion heads earlier. I parked on the side of the street in town and was doing something on my phone. Maybe texting him or something. A guy who looked drunk came up to my window and asked if I would give him money. I said "no". He kept pestering me. I told him to "get away from my car". He then yelled things which are unrepeatable here at me and opened my door. I usually carry a gun. But didn't have it then for some reason. I grabbed my whip and used the handle like a club to begin beating him in the face and punched him a few times. He staggered back. I got out of the jeep punched him a few more times in the gut. Then I took a few steps back and began peeling flesh from bone with my bullwhip. I don't know how many times I cracked him with it. Pretty much did it until I was tired of doing it. The whole time he was screaming in the fetal position on the ground like a baby with bloody welts all over his arms and face where I was hitting him. He should thank the gods above that I was kind enough not to aim for his eyeballs. I could have if I had wanted to. But when I felt he had had enough. I quickly got back in the Jeep and sped away. Had I not had the whip, would I have lived? Probably.. he didn't have a weapon and I'm 6'3", reasonably strong, and I don't have a belly. But having the whip and knowing how to use it right made things a heck of a lot easier for me.

Sounds like it was fortunate you didn't have your gun with you. I don't think you'd have internet access from your cell.

[Dangerfreak]

There are some pretty unfortunate accounts here. Where I live is pretty rural and there are loads of dog owners and there always have been. Most dog owners in my experience are very responsible, but a few are dreadfully neglectful. There's a saying that 'there's no such thing as a bad dog just a bad owner'. It's no joke being confronted by an aggressive dog and as wolves have been Mankind's deadliest hunting competitor since the dawn of time, instinctively we remember that. However, a serious bite or simple misunderstanding can be avoided with a little dog know how.
Dogs communicate via posturing and body language, so here's some tips.
1) No eye contact! Never look a strange dog in the eye. Unfortunately it's natural for people to look things in the eye as people guage moods by facial expressions. Dogs take a look in the eye as a challenge. Look to one side, but keep him in your side vision.
2) Dogs show confidence by walking tall. If a dog eyes you directly with tail up, he's either excited to see you, or he's warning you he's boss. Watch him. If the hairs at the base of his neck, across his shoulders and at the base of his tail are up, he's angry and means business. Back off or give a wide birth.
3)Play submissive, but hold your ground. This goes against the grain with most people. With Humans it's more important to act tough in a confrontation, but dogs live by the maxim ' attack is the best defence'. If the dog is already aggressive, acting tough will merely challenge him to attack. Instead, drop your gaze slightly, look past the dog, but keep him in your side vision. Turn yourself side on, which is better defensively for you, and give him a wide birth, or back off.
4) The bark is normally worse than the bite. Most dogs put on a great show of an attack, but a person still seems very tall to a dog. Adopting the above body language and holding ground can be very unnerving for a person, but usually a dog will stop up short and be as threatening as possible. Don't drop your guard, but back off gradually.
5) I'm not a threat, but I'm not afraid. Adopting the submissive posturing says your not a threat, but don't show fear and be ready. You want to tell him you're no immediate danger, but he needs to think you'll be able to go for him if he pushes it.
This stuff isn't full-proof, but I've found it helps and has always worked for me. Reporting incidents to your local authorities is a good idea. There were increasing reports in the UK about horses and even guide dogs for the blind being attacked by out of control dogs, so the law was changed to make it easier for the police to punish irresponsible dog owners. Perhaps if you voiced concerns with your community, others may have had similar experiences and the authorities could be compelled to act. I hope you find a safe resolution to this problem. All the best.

[Cajunkraut]

Danger,

Great advice there. I will tell you that most walkers or joggers focusing on a workout aren't interested in sticking around to decipher what's on the dog's mind. The bottom line is if it's on a leash and not in pursuit, no worries.

The last dog event I experienced should've concluded with a police report after the owner followed me and my running partner in a vehicle because I aggressively shooed his pursuing dog away and loudly reminded the owner about leash laws. The point is, you may have to worry as much about the owner as the animal.

[Dangerfreak]

Good points there Cajun. I have distant memories of my mother having a stand-up row with a woman who's Labrador had been chasing children on a village green. She simply refused to restrain her dog. The police arrived in the end and sorted it.

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Get a 4 plait cowhide stockwhip that cracks like a cannon. I can't count how many times I've turned dogs around and changed their attitude by cracking it right in their face--never hit them, I didn't need to. Just let 'em come, knowing you're going to straighten them out shortly.

The most priceless part of it is seeing the glass eyed, slack jawed look of the owner when I tell them, "You're welcome!"