Indy ribbon

[Briscott]

Since the discussion has been deleted in the other thread, I would like to start a new one, because this is still very much of interest for me and I think I am not the only one. First I want to say sorry for getting maybe a bit emotionally in the other thread. I don't want to accuse somebody of lying, I just think there is more than one opinion one could have on the "true" Indy ribbon.

Mr Penman said that Penman hats and AB hats are the only Indy fedoras out there who have the "only true" Indy ribbon. In my mind there can not be just one true Indy ribbon. We know that there were severall hats in the movies. Not only the felt changed between Raiders, ToD and LC. Mr Penman says he's getting the ribbon from the "man" who made ribbon for HJ when Raiders was filmed. Even if this was true, there is no evidence that this ribbon was used on the hats seen in Raiders. I also have doubts that HJ had just one supplier for ribbon in those days, especially in such a long period of time (Raiders to LC). That is why I dislike the words "only true" in this matter. Especially when it comes from a vendor who doesn't want or can't prove such a claim. Again, I do not accuse somebody of lying. Since there is no evidence, it's a question of belief and everybody is free to believe anything. I just would not constitute my belief as the only true belief.

I have made comparison shots of the ribbon Mr Penman uses (left) and of the ribbon that HJ uses on their poets nowadays (right):



Except from a very, very small difference in the color hue, I can't see any difference, even in the structure:



I think the only true Indy ribbon was on every single Indy hat that was used in the movies. Everything else is a replication. Some kind of ribbon maybe better than other, I don't know. Then we should talk about features (material, color, structure, size) and why "this" feature is better than the other.

Thanks for reading!

[Indiana Jeff]

Thanks for restarting this thread. I agree that the topic in and of itself is valuable.

My understanding is Penman and AB are the only hatters that use the ribbon that was made for the CS fedoras.

I'll allow BO to repost in this thread if he would like so I don't confuse the facts in regard to the CS ribbon supplier's tie to ROLA.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Hollowpond]

Briscott, you mentioned in the other thread that you are a custom hatter as well. I'm kind of outta the loop right now, so this might be a dum dum question, but is this something you do as a hobby, or do you have a business?

Just curious, as I love to see hatters work and I didn't know if you had a website or anything.

Thanks!

Btw, interesting thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Indiana Jeff]

I think that was Banky that said he makes custom hats.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[auntsugar]

Just my 2 cents, but if I were an Indy hatter and sourced (and labbed) original ribbon--I wouldn't disclose the source, either.
It's like giving the recipe to the secret sauce!
Hatting is his business--and he's quite fond of Indy feds.
I could see a difference in the weave...although slightly.
But, it's there. And those small differences make a ribbon quite characteristically different--hue, etc.

Just because he won't reveal the source doesn't mean it's not legit.

If he revealed it--other hatters would be scouring to grab as much as possible, and then Penman Hats would lose something special.

Bottom line is--you can choose to believe him, or not.
I have no reason not to--he's a pro.

[BendingOak]

Just my 2 cents, but if I were an Indy hatter and sourced (and labbed) original ribbon--I wouldn't disclose the source, either.
It's like giving the recipe to the secret sauce!
Hatting is his business--and he's quite fond of Indy feds.
I could see a difference in the weave...although slightly.
But, it's there. And those small differences make a ribbon quite characteristically different--hue, etc.

Just because he won't reveal the source doesn't mean it's not legit.

If he revealed it--other hatters would be scouring to grab as much as possible, and then Penman Hats would lose something special.

Bottom line is--you can choose to believe him, or not.
I have no reason not to--he's a pro.

Thank you. Look a reasonable person. There is such a thing.


Other hats in any of the movies were placements hats. The DP that gets thrown to the ground in indy 4, I wouldn't consider Indys hat since he never wears it. It's a placement so they can say the official hat is the official hat.

[Texan Scott]

I will say this and then I will step out of the discussion. I remembered previous posts that Steve made, having visited Swales in London, personally. I believe he got it straight from the source. Steve also knew that one day he would step out of hat making one day, and looked for an heir apparent, someone to carry it forward, and that was John.

[BendingOak]

That's the thing Scott. A lot about the Raiders hat information Steve had access to, like if the travel hat color was grey or brown but people will still claim that it was brown. As a Indy fan myself this ribbon is important to me, it's a link to to that hat I saw so many years ago. As a hat maker it's like having a time machine to the past on having a unlimited access to high quality ribbon of the past.


Why haven't you made the connection that the ribbon you posted are the same?

[Texan Scott]

[Ridgerunner58]

The original Herbert Johnson hat was reportedly acquired from Swaine Adeney Brigg in the late 1970s or 1980. Swaine Adeney changed the ribbon from 50 mm to 39 mm.

Swaine Adeney is a very small, very exclusive company that prides itself on its heritage. It manufactures and sells the same umbrellas, luggage and other items today that it did 50+ years ago. The company made the attaché case for From Russia With Love and will sell you an identical case today. The umbrella I bought from them in the 1980s is the same as the one my Uncle bought there in the 1960s. I suspect if you dug into it, and providing the suppliers are still in business, they probably buy the silk and nylon for the canopies from the same people today that they bought from in the 1960s.

If they had a supplier of high quality hat ribbon in 1979 who is still in business today my suspicion is they are still buying their ribbon there. By contrast, I think it is unlikely that a company that prides itself on its traditions had rolls of random 39 mm wide brown hat ribbon from a dozen different suppliers lying around and just grabbed the closest one on any given occasion.

The fact that Herbert Johnson (which did not supply the ribbon) was forced to buy felt from a different company because the original stuff was no longer available, or changed its logo, is not relevant to what ribbon Swaine Adeney sewed on the hat at its shop. The fact that notwithstanding the material changes experienced by Herbert Johnson, Swaine Adeney stuck with them as the supplier of the hat supports my belief.

When you add that to John's statement (and I assume Steve's similar statement) that they have spoken with the supplier, who knows what he sold to whom, and who they say confirmed that he was supplying Swayne Adeney with hat ribbon in the time frame, and who still makes the same ribbon the same way today, I think the evidence is pretty compelling that it's the same ribbon.

I should add by way of clarification that I am not suggesting that Herbert Johnson itself might not have used different ribbon over the years on its own Poet hats. My comments focus on Swayne Adeney Brigg's Piccadilly shop only.

I own two Poets, neither of which were from Swayne Adeney. My Magnoli, however, was reworked by Steve Delk and I can say that the ribbon and bow work on it is different from the hat produced by Herbert Johnson and to my eye is identical to the ribbon on my Adventurebilt and Penman hats.

I do think that in having this discussion, which hopefully will remain civil, people need to keep the distinction between the two companies in mind and remember that the ribbon used on the original film hat was not the ribbon sewn on by Herbert Johnson's factory.

[Indiana Jeff]

I remembered previous posts that Steve made, having visited Swales in London, personally. I believe he got it straight from the source.

I don't remember posts from Steve about being in London. Tex, can you dig that thread up?


My concern over this specific ribbon is it's direct link to CS. I know my AB is as close to a screen used hat as can reasonably be expected. With the exception of the liner; ABs today are made using felt from the same supplier, same sweatbands, same ribbon and most importantly, by the same hands. Any tie back to ROLA is inconsequential to me since the rest of the materials are completely different. Heck, my ROLA hat is beaver fur.

I own two Poets, neither of which were from Swayne Adeney. My Magnoli, however, was reworked by Steve Delk and I can say that the ribbon and bow work on it is different from the hat produced by Herbert Johnson and to my eye is identical to the ribbon on my Adventurebilt and Penman hats.

I could be wrong, but the hats that Steve reworked for Mags got the AB/CS ribbon put on them as part of the rebuild. That would answer why the ribbon matches other ABs.


And with respect to BO, he knows what a picky crowd this is (he is firmly in that camp himself) and anything short of a signed affidavit will fail the 'proof' test. There will always be those that doubt a "trust me" statement by anyone here.

I can say I skipped through the park holding HF's hand. People are going to want to see a picture. (I have one, I do. Really. But you know, I can't figure out how to post them here. ).


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Indiego Jones]

I can't help it.
I wanted to stay out of it, but I must post.

FIRST:
I respect John and Steve. For their work, commitment and efforts through all this years. Nothing leads me to think they can be dishonest or liars in any way. (Now that I clarified this, I am ready to crush them !!! )

Now, on Briscott argument, I don't think he's attacking any credibility.
Depending on how do you interpret the syntax in the post. You can choose to interpret the words in a malicious way, or in a harmless way. I choose to interpret in a harmless way... I "choose wisely"...

In the first post I can see he presents the possibility than someone else, besides John or Steve, uses the very same ribbon from the very same factory (see image).
Another point he's making is that, most probably, HJ didn't use the very same ribbon for the hats supplied in ALL the first 3 movies.

BOTH ARGUMENTS ARE VALID AND POSSIBLE.

Is the ribbon in ToD and LC HJ's fedoras, the same ribbon used in every Raiders HJ hats???
It is possible that today's HJ fedoras come with the very same ribbon from the very same factory where AB/Penman gets his ribbon ???

The first question is very difficult to answer without a lot of presumptions.
The second question is easier. Take a sample of both ribbons, send them to a laboratory, and find out if the "DNA" is the same.

[Ridgerunner58]

My point, and perhaps I was unclear, was that the ribbon on the original film hat was not the ribbon sewn on the hat by Herbert Johnson.

As originally delivered to Swayne Adeney the hat reportedly had a 2" (50 mm) ribbon and an even (non-dimensional) brim. The "story" (retold by Swayne Adeney to this day) was that Swales replaced the ribbon with a 1 1/2" (39 mm) ribbon and re-cut the brim.

So the question whether Herbert Johnson used, or currently uses one type of ribbon on its Poet hats is irrelevant, because the ribbon on the original did not originate with Herbert Johnson. (In fact, my comparison of the ribbons on my Magnoli HJ and the HJ I bought from Todd when he was selling them compels me to conclude that the ribbons are not even close to the same.)

My understanding is that at some point Steve Delk learned the source of the 39 mm ribbon stocked by Swayne Adeney in the 1979 - 1980 period and he was was able to contact the supplier, confirm that the ribbon was still available, and purchase it. That ribbon was then carried forward onto the CS hat.

It is possible, probable, even highly likely that the TOD and LC hats from Herbert Johnson used a ribbon supplied by Herbert Johnson itself, which was different from the 39 mm ribbon used on the originals. And it is highly unlikely that the mass produced Stetson version used anything close to the original 39 mm rayon ribbon.

Since the original hat was reportedly customized in the shop, I am not even going to suggest that a Poet purchased from Swayne Adeney today would have the correct 39 mm ribbon on it, because I don't know that they "re-ribbon" all of the hats they sell. My suspicion, since Herbert Johnson itself promotes the hat they make as a replica and now use the smaller ribbon is that Swayne Adeney does not replace the ribbon - but I don't know and it's irrelevant to the current discussion anyway because we are talking about the connection between the 1979-1980 ribbon and the ribbon modernly used on hats made by Penman and Adventurebilt.

So I think the reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that the CS ribbon is probably the same color, size, quality, material, fabrication and supplier as the ribbon used by Swayne Adeney in 1979-1980 on the original film hat, and therefore the ribbon used by Steve, Mark and John is as "genuine" (assuming by genuine you are confining yourself to the original film) or "close" to the 1979 - 1980 ribbon as you are going to get.

[BendingOak]

I don't think Steve traveled to London but I know he has contact with them and Swales.

As for the HJ/Mag Steve had to use his own parts because they were stripped down and re-worked. I have one here in my shop as Steve wanted me to take that over for him. I just don't have the time to do that.

Jeff I would love to show you proof but I can't. I would be putting becon on the supplier and I won't do it. As we know from other people from the past documents can be photo shop. There really isn't any point to it then, is it then?. You can believe what you like but I know what I have.

The ribbon does stand out from others, I can clearly see it. Its clear it nicks post of guess the hat makers. It was clear to me when someone miss quoted a hat maker having such ribbon. Why, because the way it's made. It's like having a time machine to the past when ribbon was made right. I more happy with the find of this maker because of the other colors and sizes. More so then the one Indy ribbon. It's like having a unlimited supply of high end vintage ribbon.

I have always had the thought of getting the best materials I can. Trying to have the best craftsmanship I can. I never want to just settle with "that's good enough." I will add a hour of my work time if it would increase the quality of my hats by 1%. It's not logical, it's not practical but it is me. It is just one part of why my hats are what they are. I am proud of that fact. I had the the choice a couple years back to go thirds with Garrison and Delk to use the modern stuff dyed to the Indy color. Like Steve, choose to take a different route. It would have saved me money and kept the cost of my hats down by a few dollars. I like this ribbon so much that I took that route. I know which part of the market I went for and proud of that choice, it's the right one for me.

[BendingOak]

Let me clear something else. mark is the one who found the supplier not Steve.

[shade88]

I have always had the thought of getting the best materials I can. Trying to have the best craftsmanship I can. I never want to just settle with "that's good enough." I will add a hour of my work time if it would increase the quality of my hats by 1%. It's not logical, it's not practical but it is me. It is just one part of why my hats are what they are. I am proud of that fact. I had the the choice a couple years back to go thirds with Garrison and Delk to use the modern stuff dyed to the Indy color. Like Steve, choose to take a different route. It would have saved me money and kept the cost of my hats down by a few dollars. I like this ribbon so much that I took that route. I know which part of the market I went for and proud of that choice, it's the right one for me.

Having both an AB KOTCS and one of your Raiders beaver fedora, I can say without a doubt that the money, and the time to make these hats, are well spent.

[Indiana Jeff]

BO, I wouldn't expect you to provide information on your supplier. You have a proprietary product there and should make efforts to protect it.

BUT there will always be those that will cast doubt. That's just the way of the world.

Maybe COW should move our corporate headquarters to Missouri: The Show Me State.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Ridgerunner58]

I like this ribbon so much that I took that route. I know which part of the market I went for and proud of that choice, it's the right one for me.

As you should be. It's part of the reason why I have 8 (or is it 9 - I forget) of your hats. (so far)

[BendingOak]

Thank you shade and ridgerunner.


Jeff, you are correct. I know there will be some that will have doubt and wont believe me. I'm ok with that but in the same breath I can NOT take someone word when they post based on their word.

[BendingOak]

I can't help it.
I wanted to stay out of it, but I must post.

FIRST:
I respect John and Steve. For their work, commitment and efforts through all this years. Nothing leads me to think they can be dishonest or liars in any way. (Now that I clarified this, I am ready to crush them !!! )

Now, on Briscott argument, I don't think he's attacking any credibility.
Depending on how do you interpret the syntax in the post. You can choose to interpret the words in a malicious way, or in a harmless way. I choose to interpret in a harmless way... I "choose wisely"...

In the first post I can see he presents the possibility than someone else, besides John or Steve, uses the very same ribbon from the very same factory (see image).
Another point he's making is that, most probably, HJ didn't use the very same ribbon for the hats supplied in ALL the first 3 movies.

BOTH ARGUMENTS ARE VALID AND POSSIBLE.

Is the ribbon in ToD and LC HJ's fedoras, the same ribbon used in every Raiders HJ hats???
It is possible that today's HJ fedoras come with the very same ribbon from the very same factory where AB/Penman gets his ribbon ???

The first question is very difficult to answer without a lot of presumptions.
The second question is easier. Take a sample of both ribbons, send them to a laboratory, and find out if the "DNA" is the same.

crush me.

stop please your killing me.

I or should I say we can not stop anyone from having access to this ribbon that had it before us.

[Ridgerunner58]

Let me clear something else. mark is the one who found the supplier not Steve.

That makes more sense.

[BendingOak]

one more thing. I have sent this ribbon to two different modern ribbon companies to have them tested. I also sent both of them a few high end vintage ribbon. Both came back with the same results. If you want to spend the money to do what I already have done. please be all means. Just remember Im not taking anyone word that doesnt take mine.

[BendingOak]

here are a couple of photos showing exactly how much ribbon I use.




yard stick with ribbon next to it. It's hard but you can see the fold nearing the bottom of the pic. these are the folds that will be the bow. My bows and rap around is one piece. this is clearly more then a yard. the amount past the yard stick is 2 1/2 inches.

next photo is of the knot.



you can see that it is 3 inches.

This is for a hat for a person who measures 23 5/8 inches of course the outside of the hat will be a little more then that.

yard plus 5 1/2 inches. which is what I said. yard to yard and a half.

[Briscott]

One more thing I would like to say is about the purple hue of other ribbons, which Mr Penman does not like or says that it is wrong for an Indy hat. In the films you can find several scenes in which the ribbon shows exactly this hue:



At least I'm seeing it. I don't know if anyone else does. These are just a few examples.

Furthermore I am remembering the pics of Desi's screen used fedora (don't know if I am allowed to re-post these pics) and the red-brown color the ribbon had. This also does not look like the very dark ribbon AB / Penman uses. Of course it bleached out over the time, but it would not bleach out to a red-brown. At least this is what I think.

[BendingOak]

I have photos where the AB/Penman looks like what you just posted. The modern ribbon look completely purple undertone. I'll look for some photos when I get a chance.


Do remember a lot of these hats have been distressed .

[Briscott]

I have photos where the AB/Penman looks like what you just posted.

So, when you see the purple hue in the pictures above, you now say your ribbon has it too? Not just as purple as other ribbons?

The modern ribbon look completely purple undertone.

I don't think so. I have two Poets, one I bought last year, the other back in 2002. Neither ribbon has a complete purple undertone, even in bright sunlight. In my opinion they look just like the ribbon in the pictures above. I'll make some pics when the clouds are gone.

[Dalexs]

FYI

Using any screen shots are almost completely worthless in this discussion due to lighting differences, film stock used, and film post processing used.

This is why it was always so difficult to nail down the colors of the hats, the shoes, etc...
The ribbon generally appeared very dark brown, almost black, but look at the scenes we're always comparing.

Also, the color brown, in terms of dye, can be formulated using a variety of different colors.
I found this out when we were going down the road of redying those pumkin orange Aldens many years ago.

Not all browns are created equal.
Thats why some of the older Feds would fade out to green...)

The best anyone can hope for is to match what we all think seems to be the best color.
Personally, when I'm builkding a hat, I buy a small quantity of Schiff ribbbon in their darkest brown du'jour,
and redye it to meet my needs. Go dig thru the archives, color mating ribbon has been going on for a very long time.

John and Steve seemed to have gotten the best we can hope hope.
We've come a long way...

[auntsugar]

I just don't understand why this is such a big debate.
BO has provided more info than he needs to. He already went out of his way to lab them, and now showing these extra pics just to try to satisfy a few. People can either take his PROFESSIONAL word for it, or not--and that's it.
It's not like he's upped the price on his lids because of the ribbon--he's just sharing a great find with the one place that matters most.
There is nothing else he can do, or should do to prove it.
There will always be naysayers.
Nobody jumped on other vendors when a huge cache of vintage gear was found in a warehouse--could have been repros.....but we all snatch them up as a great score with a pat on the back to the vendor.
I'll also add that I do NOT own a Penman fedora...yet, so my posts are not biased in any way.
I'm just trying to make sense of the great debate here, and why it even exists.

[Indiego Jones]

I'm just trying to make sense of the great debate here, and why it even exists.

I think the reason this debate exists, is because of the greatness COW forum it is.
Open to discussion and civilized exchange of thoughts between members.
Giving the opportunity, to anyone, to clear their doubts about any aspect/detail of the Indy gear.
And allowing vendors to demonstrate and defend their products.
Regards.-

[BendingOak]

FYI

Using any screen shots are almost completely worthless in this discussion due to lighting differences, film stock used, and film post processing used.

This is why it was always so difficult to nail down the colors of the hats, the shoes, etc...
The ribbon generally appeared very dark brown, almost black, but look at the scenes we're always comparing.

Also, the color brown, in terms of dye, can be formulated using a variety of different colors.
I found this out when we were going down the road of redying those pumkin orange Aldens many years ago.

Not all browns are created equal.
Thats why some of the older Feds would fade out to green...)

The best anyone can hope for is to match what we all think seems to be the best color.
Personally, when I'm builkding a hat, I buy a small quantity of Schiff ribbbon in their darkest brown du'jour,
and redye it to meet my needs. Go dig thru the archives, color mating ribbon has been going on for a very long time.

John and Steve seemed to have gotten the best we can hope hope.
We've come a long way...

I so agree with you. It's near impossible to use screen grabs to prove color.

[BendingOak]

I just don't understand why this is such a big debate.
BO has provided more info than he needs to. He already went out of his way to lab them, and now showing these extra pics just to try to satisfy a few. People can either take his PROFESSIONAL word for it, or not--and that's it.
It's not like he's upped the price on his lids because of the ribbon--he's just sharing a great find with the one place that matters most.
There is nothing else he can do, or should do to prove it.
There will always be naysayers.
Nobody jumped on other vendors when a huge cache of vintage gear was found in a warehouse--could have been repros.....but we all snatch them up as a great score with a pat on the back to the vendor.
I'll also add that I do NOT own a Penman fedora...yet, so my posts are not biased in any way.
I'm just trying to make sense of the great debate here, and why it even exists.

Thaaaaaaank you. Oh my goodness yes. You are sooo correct. I really dont know why im the guy being singled out when no one else has when they say they have found a something like this. I guess I'm so dishonest. The bottom line is I know what we have. Some can either choose to believe me or you can not.

[erikgunnlugson]

Here is where Marc and Steve talk about finding the ribbon in case anyone is interested. I know I find this all very interesting

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38344&hilit=ribbon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BendingOak]

Steve is wrong in that statement because he assumed because they way the Indy ribbon behaves that it isn't pure rayon but I had it tested in two labs and it is 100% also there has been more information that came our way about that ribbon.

[Indiego Jones]

Another point he's making is that, most probably, HJ didn't use the very same ribbon for the hats supplied in ALL the first 3 movies.

(I can't believe I'm quoting myself... )

John, in your opinion, the HJ hats supplied for the original trilogy, had the same ribbon???
Because I see important differences between them.

[BendingOak]

desis screen used hat?????? How do we know it's a screen used hat? Did we see proof as such?

[Odo]

My opinion is there are two options you must decide at first:
(this is valid for the ribbon, as much as for any other piece of gear or part of it)

1-You want a hat that looks like the one in the movie
2-You want a hat that looks like the one used in the making of the movie.

If you chose "1", then you just get some screen caps, or production pics, and you compare them to all hats available, and chose the one you like more. But you should know you are buying something that matches the hat seen in the screen, so you can't say "it is like the original hat was", cause you don't know.

If you choose "2", that's much more difficult, cause unless you can travel in time -and still seems unlikely- and get into the making of the film, back then, you don't know 100% how the hat was.
You may assume how it was, and get to be a 99.99% sure that you are right, but that never will be a 100%.
For this option, we can't for sure use any screen cap. We may get some closer watching some production pics, or grabbing those Screen Used pics as a reference, but the only certain thing you know from them is the hat wasn't any lighter than that, cause time has passed, and felt gets lighter after some time, so you assume it was darker than that, but you don't know how much darker.
So I guess, If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall.

That being said, I preffer a hat that matches a scene I've seen, or a pic I like, (though I may imagine the actual hat might be some different, but I can't compare mine to something I don't know).
I guess there's no point in saying a hat "is the Holly Grail of hats", cause I guess everybody has different ideas of how this "perfect hat" should be, and that would always lead into different opinions and there will be hardly and agreement.

After all, this is a hobby for all us, I think, and we should enjoy it...

[BendingOak]

I can agree with your statement but I know what this ribbon is, same maker, same material used, spun The same way. I know it by severally of differences ways. It is a great find not only because of the Indy hat but because it's made like the truly high end vintage ribbon that was made many years ago. Tested in two different labs and both came back with the same results.


I agree if you , find a hat that you like and it's a good replica of the hat you see on film. That's great. Go buy that hat. That is all that matters to that person but I don't see the need for people to go out of there way to attack and dispute me for no reason at all. To say I don't pay what I pay for this ribbon or I don't use the amount I use is insulting. I don't care what a jacket maker pays for his leather to make a jacket. Is the end results worth what I'm paying, that's all that matures

It's funny that most of the people that do this are other hat makers or sell hats.

I do understand that we are all gear heads and we love talking and searching out what is what with the gear. I wouldn't be doing what I do if I wasn't a gear head myself.

I never knocked your hats nor have I praised them. I never seen them in person so I can't say anything about them. They look good in photos and you guys have a passion for what you do. I also like the way you handle your biz. I glad that you guys fill that part of the market.

[Odo]

I'm in no way doubting of your work, or your ribbon, which actually I think is great, and if you know its the real thing, that's enough, nothing else to say.
I didn't mean to atack anyone. I'm just talking about when should film pics be used as a reference, and when not, please don't misunderstand me. I'm trying to let clear that this is a hobby, and people can have different points of views about what they want, and in no way I'm talking about any hatter's job, but I'm talking from the point of view of the guy who buys hats.
Maybe is not the right moment to talk cause there have been some sensitive facts these last days, but far away from trying to atack anyone, I'm just trying to say there isn't always 100% true about any item, or at least, other points of view should be allowed.
For exampel, I've got a Crystal Skull jacket made by Tony Nowak in 2008. He said he used the same batch of leather than the one he used for the movie. It looks exactly like the jacket in the movie. But then I see that Behind the scenes DVD, and see they have about 20 jackets, and many of them possibly made in different leathers, cause they look much lighter or darker one next to other.
So the one I have is 99.99% dead on, I guess...but now I'm not so sure...
I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...it just a thought...its about any piece of gear, and please, again, it's not against anyone or his job...

[darthbish]

I'm in no way doubting of your work, or your ribbon, which actually I think is great, and if you know its the real thing, that's enough, nothing else to say.
I didn't mean to atack anyone. I'm just talking about when should film pics be used as a reference, and when not, please don't misunderstand me. I'm trying to let clear that this is a hobby, and people can have different points of views about what they want, and in no way I'm talking about any hatter's job, but I'm talking from the point of view of the guy who buys hats.
Maybe is not the right moment to talk cause there have been some sensitive facts these last days, but far away from trying to atack anyone, I'm just trying to say there isn't always 100% true about any item, or at least, other points of view should be allowed.
For exampel, I've got a Crystal Skull jacket made by Tony Nowak in 2008. He said he used the same batch of leather than the one he used for the movie. It looks exactly like the jacket in the movie. But then I see that Behind the scenes DVD, and see they have about 20 jackets, and many of them possibly made in different leathers, cause they look much lighter or darker one next to other.
So the one I have is 99.99% dead on, I guess...but now I'm not so sure...
I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...it just a thought...its about any piece of gear, and please, again, it's not against anyone or his job...

Wouldn't lose any sleep over it Mate.......In my experience of this board, some people can get a little over precious..

[youngjedi71]

99.9999% of people wouldnt know one ribbon from the next.and that goes for most everything debated here lol

[BendingOak]

It isn't logical to use screen grabs and photos to prove or disprove anything. You cant match the same conditions.

[Ridgerunner58]

I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...

When it gets right down to it I'm not 100% sure that I actually exist.

[BendingOak]

I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...

When it gets right down to it I'm not 100% sure that I actually exist.

I think you exist but I don't really believe I'm going to die 100%. I'll believe it when it happens.

[Dalexs]

Well, I can say with 100% accuracy... that the Indy ribbon was black... no wait, brown!
Aaaaaaahhhhhh

[Ridgerunner58]

I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...

When it gets right down to it I'm not 100% sure that I actually exist.

I think you exist but I don't really believe I'm going to die 100%. I'll believe it when it happens.

Yeah, . . . I guess I must exist.

If I didn't exist, your bank account would probably be overdrawn . . .

[BendingOak]

I was just thinking if anyone can be 100% completely sure of anything...

When it gets right down to it I'm not 100% sure that I actually exist.

I think you exist but I don't really believe I'm going to die 100%. I'll believe it when it happens.

Yeah, . . . I guess I must exist.

If I didn't exist, your bank account would probably be overdrawn . . .

Now that we can be sure of.

[Indiego Jones]

I have made comparison shots of the ribbon Mr Penman uses (left) and of the ribbon that HJ uses on their poets nowadays (right):



Except from a very, very small difference in the color hue, I can't see any difference, even in the structure:

This is huge. It means it isn't AB/Penman exclusive. Some other hattery is using the same ribbon!
If HJ also have "the ribbon", maybe I can manage to have than ribbon too...

John, how can we know if it's the same ribbon?
A cousin of mine is chemical engineer (I'm sorry if the translation is incorrect), and he can make tests to the ribbons.
But, I need to tell him what to looking for.

[BendingOak]

Your assuming that this person is in fact showing you what he states is a AB and HJ ribbon. Point two, I can't block out anyone who has gotten the ribbon before us. Point three, why in the world would I help out anyone to find the the Indy ribbon? Sorry brotha, but this is business.

[Briscott]

Your assuming that this person is in fact showing you what he states is a AB and HJ ribbon. Point two, I can't block out anyone who has gotten the ribbon before us. Point three, why in the world would I help out anyone to find the the Indy ribbon? Sorry brotha, but this is business.

You mean you can't tell if the ribbon on the left is one of your ribbons? Or you don't trust me that the one on the right is a Poets ribbon?

[BendingOak]

Your assuming that this person is in fact showing you what he states is a AB and HJ ribbon. Point two, I can't block out anyone who has gotten the ribbon before us. Point three, why in the world would I help out anyone to find the the Indy ribbon? Sorry brotha, but this is business.

You mean you can't tell if the ribbon on the left is one of your ribbons? Or you don't trust me that the one on the right is a Poets ribbon?

WHy would I trust anyones word, when no one trust mine????