The original felt maker found....

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:46 pm

Posted by the request of Lee Keppler....

As Groucho Marx once said, "Love goes out the door, when love comes 'innuendo'!"

Regards. Michaelson

IndianaJames · Post by **IndianaJames** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:09 pm

SHARPETOYS · Post by **SHARPETOYS** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:58 pm

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:30 am

The sample arrived yesterday. Good news and bad news. The good news first. This indeed could be the felt used in the Raiders fedora, if the stiffener that was cooked in was the amount normally used for dress hats, i.e. very little. The bad news is the color. I don't know how to describe the shade of brown, but the color listed on the paperwork is "pino", or pine. My wife says it looks greenish, but I am not so sure. I think Cury just sent the wrong color, as we had talked about brown, not pine. The stiffness factor is about the same as the Fed line, but the felt looks to be finer, like some of the vintage hats found on ebay. One thing that makes me think this could be the Raiders felt is the thinness and the appearance of the finish. It was not a raw body, but had been pounced to a fine finish. Honestly, I really like the Cury felt, and wish you could buy this felt from our suppliers. So what do you guys want to do? We could request another sample, less stiffener, and brown this time or we could just drop the ball. I guess I will put this body on my block and have me a pine fedora, since it looks tan to me. Or, if anyone else wants to pick this up and try and get a brown sample, it is fine with me. My main thing now is the time. I don't have as much time for the hobby since other things are tugging at my sleeve currently, but could get back on it in a few weeks. Fedora

Cabinetman · Post by **Cabinetman** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:09 am

Did they send you an all-but-finished hat as a sample (given that it's pounced)?

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:05 am

Could the color problem be more of a factor with the stiffner as in the case with the early feds?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:12 am

You read my mind, Render, old buddy, and THAT is a dangerous thing to do!!

Regards. Michaelson

Renderking Fisk · Post by **Renderking Fisk** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:26 am

Yea... just like I knew someone was going to mention that once I get a hold of some of Bill's Khaki pants I would be saying they are the best pants I've worn in over 20 years.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:29 am

Who would have said a thing like that??!!

8-[ Regards. Michaelson

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:13 pm

Fedora, could you post a pic? How far off in color is it? Did they say anything else about the cost per minimum order? I guess I could make an inquiry with them as well.

Post by **Mike** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:27 pm

Fedora, my vote would be for you to continue the quest as time allows. You've already established a rapport with them and actually gotten further than anyone whose attempted before. If too many fans get their irons in the fire, it might scare them off, or cause them to be less proactive.

When asking about colors, did you ask for "sable"? That is what HJ has the color designtated as and might give them a better idea than just "brown".

Mike

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:21 pm

Fedora, If you still want the hat bodies, they have been loaded onto a truck for Cairo...This sounds like the big one, and you're the man! "thin, fine, vintage felt" !! They make this "social" hat color, #06, which is about the best Raiders color I've seen.. http://www.chapeuscury.com.br/ingles/li ... p?cat_id=5

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:42 pm

My vote is for Fedora to continue as he has time and is willing. I trust his judgement on color, thickness, and quality.

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:17 pm

add one more to the list and lucky me I'm a 7 1/4.
Lindiana

Lindiana · Post by **Lindiana** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:20 pm

time permitting, of course.

Lindiana

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:50 am

If you've got the time, I'm still in Fedora.

I concur, that the "social' Number 6 is a very good brown, but it is very early and my eyes are off. Perhaps someone with an early HJ could clear the air a wee bit and throw an opinion on the color?

Regards,
Farn

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:59 am

Fedora,

For what it is worth, I say go for it. You know as well as I do that you want to see the ark opened...er, want to know for sure if this is the felt or even a really good replacement for the felts we have now. It would be crazy to drop it on the basis of color if everything else seems to fit your expectations, and we all know how high those are

What is a few weeks or months in the scheme of things? Unfortunately, what I read in your last post did not mention anything about you pursuing this further, but it seems you wanted to know if anyone else wanted to pick it up. My vote would be that you continue to chase this as your time allows...

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:15 am

Hello Folks.
This is propably going to be the longest post I've written so far, as I have a lot to tell.

Though nobody answered my question wether I shall contact the owner of the German web page or not, I just got away from the phone.

I talked to someone there who really seemed to know, what he was talking about. He states that Herbert Johnson did the designs on the hat and then they let whole hat produce in Brazil then they put their lining in the hat and sold it. I know what you are saying: HJ states that only the felt came from brazil. But if you think about it, would you give away your source, when your customers could buy directly for less money? No, you wouldn't. So this German company states the hats will be ready to ship by the end of the month. The hat is going away at the price of 148,00 € and it contains hare and 5 % beaver. The good thing is that German postage is very low. So shipping would (maybe) be cheaper as shipping from inside the U.S.

They are selling a whip too. I have forgotten the price (it was something about 150 €or so) but he claims that it is Brazilian too. And it is made as a tool for the Brazilian cow boys. Sounds good to me.

I asked him, why the bag on their web page doesn't look real, and he said it is going to be a replica (WPG you better beware

) in this was the first proto type. The real thing will look nothing like the bag in the picture.

I gave them my mail address, and asked the to send me pictures. I also told them (or him) about this forum and Indygear. And he answered he knew Indygear and tried to get in touch once, but he never got a reply....

He said he wouldn't post at this forum because he thinks it's against Netiquette. I answer that it would be no problem, because it has been done before, and as long as he just introduces himself it actually would be wished by the majority of us. (I hope this was right) He said he would talk about it with his partners, but he would at least read the forum.

I asked about the background of the company and he stated it originally came fro the riding sport, and is now Germany's leading Internet shop for riding gear.

That's it for now. What do you think? I'll keep you updated, when I have something new.

Cheers,
Redbeard

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:08 am

Wow redbeard! You are all over the hatscape these days! First Cury now this!

Thanks a ton for all the legwork, it's certainly very interesting.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:37 am

On the color issue, this hat is not an Indy brown, it is not even close. It is more of a tawny color. But, they do have different browns available. I don't know why this sample was sent as I requested the brown used by HJ way back when. There is a bit of a problem in communication but I think I can end up with the right color with some more time invested. I am requesting some swatches of their different shades of brown felt and this should help out quite a bit. I must say that I am surprised that they sent me a hat sample minus the liner, ribbon and band. There was an invoice included that showed a 2 dollar charge!!!

On the minimal, I have been told once again the minimal is a dozen, but all have to be the same color, you can't mix em. And they are still 25 bucks per hat body, less if you buy more. I will post pics later this weekend. I will stay the course and see what we can get. Fedora

Cabinetman · Post by **Cabinetman** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:47 am

Appreciate your efforts.

Take care.

Post by **Mike** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 9:29 am

Fedora wrote:I will stay the course and see what we can get.

Good on ya, Mate! ...(sorry I'm on Nemo overload at the moment

)

Thanks for continuing the quest, Fedora. I'm sure you'll "choose wisely".

Mike

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:42 am

Glad to hear you are still in the hunt, Fedora. Perhaps you have 'found the grail'

LNBright · Post by **LNBright** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:46 am

Fedora,

I'm not in anything resembling a rush, you've established contact....

I'm in for the ride, with you at the helm.

-L

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:50 pm

OK Dakota, here they are. I have a couple here that have my vintage Stetson for a color comparison. http://public.fotki.com/Fedora/hats/cur ... etson.html The Stetson is close to the same darkness as the Fed Deluxe, but the brown is a differnt shade. BTW, the Cury body as received was roughly pounced by them, as this is the way you normally buy the bodies from Cury. If pounce further, especially by a hatter with a commercial pouncer, the felt would be really fine, in my opinion. It ain't bad now as received, but you can tell if you look close it is uneven and needs to be sanded down to a uniform smoothness. While this felt is thinner than the Akubras now, after a good pouncing it would be close to the Optimo lightweight, or vintage fedora thickness. Cury did in fact send the wrong color, as I have found out. They thought I wanted to look at just the felt quality and not the color for some reason, but like I said, the language gap is a problem here. It was again confirmed what the minimum order was, one dozen in a single color at 25 bucks per hat body plus shipping. regards, Fedora

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:01 pm

Fedora, that almost looks like the color Resistol calls 'bronzine'. I had a Resistol hat that made an acceptable fedora, but then I went and sanded too much off the brim( AGAIN!). I wouldn't mind that color, but if we can get a bit more red in the mix, we are on the right track. Shoot, I'd get one of each color at that price! Good work!!

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:47 pm

I see what you mean. Thanks for the pics. Here's hoping one of the samples will turn out to be "the" color.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:24 pm

I want to get a group opinion on the right color, so when I get the swatches in, I want to send them around so all that are interested can see what they have and vote on the best Raiders color. Since these will be swatches, they should all fit in a regular envelope. I am interested to see what they show as the HJ sable color. No need to get into any hurry on this as we have been lookin' for the right color/felt for years. A little while longer won't hurt. For me, unless they can provide a felt with the proper stiffness, i.e. very little, I am not convinced that this in the original felt. But, that and the color are all that is lacking as of now. Stay tuned. Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:09 am

I believe the hat Ford wears in the opening of Raiders, before entering the temple, which actually is the last hat he wore during filming, is a thicker felt than the hat(s) worn in the rest of the movie. Could HJ have lost Cury as a supplier that soon and had to revert to another felt supplier? Or maybe this was the Chelsea from Lock hatters?
Yes, we have time, no need to hurry. Pass the envelope and send back with your vote. Sounds like fun.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:23 am

6 or so questions. Those pictures are very dark, but the color looks pretty good- Does Cury claim this is the original color? What size is this hat? Crown height? Brim width? Are other sizes available? What do you think of this block? -Any way it cold be the Raiders block? The top of my PBBM looks a little too square up top- maybe this block would round it off more Raiders like. The newspaper article claimed that they came up with a special distressing process for the Raiders hat- maybe you won't get the stiffness you are looking for unless you find out what the process is and perform it on the felt sample?

GB_Cinch · Post by **GB_Cinch** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:57 am

Great work, Fedora! This has been very exciting to me since I've been out of the loop a while. Time is the key, because true progress is made in small steps, not hurdles. Time, for alot of us, will help with our money situations, too. I for one, am anxious to see where this is headed, but am willing to wait until Fedora gives it his seal of approval. He's really onto something, and I don't think he would get us into something we would regret.

Keep your insight coming Fedora, I'm behind your opinions 100%!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:45 am

3M$ wrote: "Does Cury claim this is the original color? What size is this hat? Crown height? Brim width? Are other sizes available? What do you think of this block? -Any way it cold be the Raiders block? The top of my PBBM looks a little too square up top- maybe this block would round it off more Raiders like. The newspaper article claimed that they came up with a special distressing process for the Raiders hat- maybe you won't get the stiffness you are looking for unless you find out what the process is and perform it on the felt sample?"

No, they sent the wrong color. The size of this hat was around a size 6. You can specify the size hat body that you want. I think this is just the generic block that is put on hat bodies, and are meant to be reblocked to whatever style the hatter wants to put on it. I am still waiting to hear on the stiffness factor. I assume like most other felt makers, the degree of stiffness is to be specified by the buyer. I know that there is an accepted stiffness for dress hats versus other hats. On the distressing part, this is the one facet that bothers me. I think that the company that supplied the hat bodies to HJ during that time period, supplied just hat bodies. It remains to be seen if this was the company, or just another hatter making false claims. I have high hopes, but honestly I have not seen enough to be able to make a judgement. I do know that the color sent is not even close. And, the body that I received had a 3 inch brim(they asked and I specified this width), but the open crown was only 5 1/4 in height. There are still several issues to be ironed out before we go to the next step. regards, Fedora

Redbeard · Post by **Redbeard** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:11 pm

Fedora wrote: It remains to be seen if this was the company, or just another hatter making false claims.

I asked the same question. The answer I got was: "What do you think, would Cury risk to be sued for a million $ if he could not proof it? Maybe you heard the lawyer of LucasFilm a some pretty sharp dog, who do not bark but bite"

Cheers,
Redbeard

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:03 pm

That is indeed encouraging RB. I think we will have an answer before all of this is over. It has been my experience from past dealings with Stetson that sometimes the employees know very little about particular hats. I got the private number from a hatter friend of mine who bought straight from Stetson and this was where I started my Indy fedora search prior to finding the internet as a information source. The folks that I talked to at Stetson could basically give me nothing but false information. The person finally admitted that he did not know, and that no one was around that was there when Stetson supplied some hats for one of the films. This may be part of the problem with Cury, and then throw in the communication problems and it is no wonder that things still seem unclear. But, I still have my old knarled fingers crossed. Hope my eyes don't cross before this is finished.

Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:47 pm

An update. Just heard from Cury. They are sending me another hat body, this one in the right color. They call it a chocolate brown, plus they are sending other samples of the various shades of brown that they produce. Fedora

Post by **Mike** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:56 pm

Your persistence surprises even me. (sorry couldn't resist)

Two words: Sa-Weet!

Mike

Oklahoma Jones · Post by **Oklahoma Jones** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:49 pm

Fedora, you are the best! Again, here's hoping that we 'find illumination' when you get the correct hat color. Best to you, O_J

Mattdeckard · Post by **Mattdeckard** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:38 pm

do you have any felt pics

Just close up of the fur and the thickness

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:49 pm

3 pics are posted in the link above, the first two are too dark I think, but the 3rd one is a fairly closeup of the felt, but it has not been fully pounced so unless you can visualize what the extra pouncing will do to the finish, it may be moot. I sent that body back and when the brown one gets here I will take some close up pics after I pounce the felt to what I think looks fine enough. regards, Fedora

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:24 pm

Man I am glad you are on our side.

Thank you Fedora.
Bill Walton

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:42 pm

Fedora,

Thanks for all your leg work.

I haven't followed this thread too much as I have had my interests buried in the Guns & Ammo section of COW.

Anyway, 1.) put me down for a felt body. I a would love to take a shot at building my own hat. 2.) sounds like if this project kicks off, I am going to have to get some more ribbon.

Keep me posted,
Pyro.

Modern Jones · Post by **Modern Jones** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:40 pm

Great work Fedora! Sounds like we might have to have a class in "pouncing" before this is through!!!

Skip

P.S. I'm still in for one if you're counting!

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:20 pm

Hey guys and Gals,

I just read this post from some time ago by Fedoralover in another thread:

Fedora lover wrote:

Here's the process in making a felt hat today, it doesn't include the mercury but you can see about what it takes, have fun and let us know how it turns out.

fedoralover

There are numerous steps involved in the making of a fur felt hat body. Described herewith are the steps:

CARROTING: After the skins are thoroughly cleaned to remove grease and other impurities, they go through the carroting process. This is an application of an acid solution that prepares the fur for felting. Carroting treats the fur like a home permanent, so that the fibers curl when exposed to hot water. It is very important to ensure that this application be exact or it will weaken the fur causing it to not felt properly.

CUTTING: With the fur side down the skins are fed into the cutting machine. This procedure cuts the skin from the fur as opposed to the fur from the skin. This procedure is critical to the quality of the hat. By cutting too deep it will increase the amount of skin particles and should you cut too shallow you would waste the better fur.

SORTING: The cut fur is then fed into blowing and picking machines. These machines are used to separate the guard hair and skin particles from the fur. Guard hair is the name for the long strands of hair that protects the animal from the weather. Should the sorting process not be done properly and thoroughly, the guard hair or skin particles could later ruin the felt body.

BAGGING: Various grades of fur, such as cheeks, flanks, sides, entire, center-backs, etc. are packed in different bags to be delivered to the manufacturer.

MIXING: The mixture must be pulled carefully as it will directly affect the strength and quality of the felt. As many as eight different types of grades of fur may enter into a single fur mixture, depending on the price of the hat, the color to which it is to be dyed, etc. A mixture will also provide a stronger hat than one made from a single fur.

BLOWN: The fur mixture is then hand fed into a blowing machine. The blowing machine removes clotted fur, air and dirt from the mixture.

FORMING: After the blowing machine the fur is picked out in 7 to 8 ounce increments (equals one hat body) and laid out on a conveyor which empties into the forming machine. A forming machine is a large vacuum cylinder with a cone in the middle. The cone revolves slowly. The fur settles on the revolving cone by being stunk downward by the exhaust fan in a circular motion. This stage is known as the heart of the hat making process. After the fur has formed around the cone the result is a very delicate felt cone. You must handle the thin layer with the greatest care, so before removing it from the form it is wrapped with burlap and dipped in hot water for a short period of time. This is actually when the felting starts. The hot water shrinks the fibers enough to knit them into a flimsy layer of felt.

SHRINKING: The layer of felt is then stripped from the cone. It is several times the height of the finished hat and must be handled with utmost care. Still wrapped with the burlap the fur is then put through a series of steel rollers (like big wash ringers) that constantly press and turn the fur, creating a stronger material by shrinking the felt cone. The shrinkage is a result of the fur fibers tightening with pressure, pounding, and hot water pouring over the rollers. There are a series of machines that will twist and turn the felt cone with increased pressure at each stage. The pressing, twisting and hot water is what creates the durable felt. During this process the belt body shrinks from approximately 28" to a final size of 10". This process must be done rapidly, should the bodies cool off you the outcome would be a poor felt body. Although machines play a part in this process, more in the lower and medium grades, than in the fine grades, much shrinking is done by hand, especially during the early stages when the cone is large and extremely delicate.

DYEING: The body still cone-shaped and the color of the original mixture of fur will be placed in a large vat for two hours to be dyed a certain color according to the order placed.

STRETCHING: The "hat to be" at this point has no shape. The first stretching is done on the "tip" which will later be the crown of the finished hat. The second stretching is done on the brim. Both processes are basically the same with different movements. The resulting bell-shaped body will have an approximate size of small, medium or large.

WET-BLOCKING: The bell-shaped body is drawn over a metal block which is made of several separate rubber covered levers. Metal fingers grab the edges of the body and pull it down over the block as the levers spread out and widen the bell. A metal collar is brought down over the body to hold it in place and the body is stretched to the shape of the block, while at the same time cold water is poured over the hat to cool the felt and set the shape. Blocking to final size is done with steam and an iron.

SAMPLE RUN: After air drying overnight, three bodies are selected to run through the final stages to determine the felting quality of the body. After a successful sample run, the rest of the bodies are scheduled for production.

At this stage you have a completed raw body which can then be processed into a specific style and size of hat.

Making A fur felt hat
There are five main final stages and approximately 75 different processes to complete a fur felt hat. Each of these stages and processes is specific and requires skilled workmanship and would take several pages to detail each one. Therefore, we will simply list them in the proper order:

1. BLOCKING – stiffening and shaping of the brim and crown.

First blocking
Stiffening of the brim
Drying
Second Blocking
Brim Plating

2. FINISHING – pouncing to smooth the surface of the felt.

Cutting of the brim
Pouncing
Powdering
Pre-creasing
Inspection
Final cutting and bevel
Flanging
Steaming & Inspection

3. TRIMMING – application of the leather sweat, bow, band and lining.

Flanging of the sweat band
Back stitching
Application of the bow
Sewing of the leather in the hat
Band tacking
Application of the lining
Inspection
Steaming
Hot Blocking

4. FINAL INSPECTION – inspection and quality approval

5. PACKING – wrapping and boxing.

Probably a little more involved than most people realize.

END

In otherwords, we are looking at quite the project with what seems like rather specialized tools to make these bodies from Cury into Indyhats.

Regards,

Farn[/b]

Fabian · Post by **Fabian** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 6:21 pm

Don't know if I missed something on this - but reading all the posts in here it's unbelievable that the last one is older than a month.

So here comes my lovely *bump*

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:47 pm

Here, lemme assist in that bump as well.

I could be counted on as an interested party if these felt bodies become viable, though the search for a Raiders block for a 7 5/8 head may still be underway. Fedora tells me he is working on it, and the archives endure the man to any new member here at COW.

He has my confidence.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 11:02 am

Well, I have run into a wall on this one. I never received the Indy brown sample and can't get a response from them. It was going fine until the owner started answering my emails. Audrey(the original one that I talked to) seems to have been pre-empted by Paulio. So..... who knows? After talking to someone who has received samples, several, it seems this may not be the Raiders felt afterall. TOD felt perhaps? I may never know for sure. regards, Fedora

Paulcrastination · Post by **Paulcrastination** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:55 pm

Was there any other update or closure on this topic?

Relic Raider · Post by **Relic Raider** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 5:37 pm

I was just searching for historical pictures of fedoras being made. One particular picture led me to a site that mentions Cury. One caption seems to claim or imply that at least one of Indy's Temple of Doom hats was made by the Brazilian company Cury. Maybe someone cares to translate.

http://maran.via.t-online.de/

Cassidy · Post by **Cassidy** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:51 pm

Here a few pictures of the old factory. In this factory is the famous Panama hat by the way developed, that at that time around 1911 the workers of the Panama channel carried and the hat of INDIANA JONES was manufactured also here.

This seems to be the most relevant part of the text. A quick translation with AltaVista, so there are a few grammatic errors, but this seems to be what they're getting at.

BTW - what's up with this picture:

Is it just me or does that fedora look strange...could just be the poor quality of the picture and the lighting...

Anf the hat that (Mr. Cury I presume?) is holding here, look very, very interesting:

Good find anyway.

Cheers,
Cassidy

BTW - It looks like Cury is forging that lid in the actual Temple of Doom!

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:24 pm

Cassidy wrote:

BTW - what's up with this picture:

Is it just me or does that fedora look strange...could just be the poor quality of the picture and the lighting...

BTW - It looks like Cury is forging that lid in the actual Temple of Doom!

It looks like an artist drawing or painting of the still photo as it doesn't quite match of to the stills I have of this picture:

The original felt maker found....

Cury hat body pics