Nowak Indy1 "Temple" Jacket (w/ New Raiders Comparison Pics)

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:59 pm

Zendragon wrote:You know for the record, I do believe that Tony got a jacket to copy. I have no doubts on that. But when people suggest who might have provided it, some answers don't work for me which creates doubt. It's really beside the point. If you believe it, good for you. I have said it before, it's best to base the jacket on it's own merits. How does it look, feel, fit, etc... to you. What do you know about Tony? Do you like how you have been treated, or how others have been treated before you? What is his history in jacket making. All of those things add up to a whole lot more than which jacket was used to make this copy.

Yes, this is the thing. (Admittedly, your questions are clearly rhetorical, however...)

It all adds up to one huge thing, for me anyway - peace of mind. It was an odd sensation given SO many stories of jacket purchases that went bad on these boards, I had absolute confidence in Tony. No concern that he wouldn't give me what I wanted, beyond what I even tried to specify. Why? Because amongst other things, on numerous occasions he waited until MY head was straight and could articulate EXACTLY what I wanted. He ASKED me to provide him with diagrams of pocket placement, etc so when they were shortened, they would be where I wanted them, etc. He was in no rush to flog me a jacket.

And then after we shot the breeze about Arnie and the Pumping Iron days, he tossed me in a free Arnold Classic jacket as well.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:23 pm

You know I looked into training as a boxer a couple of years ago, but I would have had to quit within a year because of the age restriction cutoffs at 33. Anyway, I digress...

neutronbomb wrote: Can you describe the details of the training to get it to look like the "temple" jacket collar.

So the three things you did different on this jacket vs the straight up "hawaii" jacket is have the sleeves a bit longer, round off the collar stand/top stormflap edge, and downsize the pockets.

1. If that's the case, then it sounds like nothing was done to the collar itself or the tips of the collar. Does this mean your jackets collar is the standard TN "Hawaii" jacket collar that he makes and the only thing that makes it the "temple" version of the jacket is the "training"? If so, this seems very insightful. It would mean all you have to do to get a "temple" jacket is round of the collar stand/top stormflap edge and train the collar.
3. Is it really that easy to go from the "Hawaii" jacket to the "Temple" jacket by having TN simply round off the collar stand? All the back and forth on the collar on some of the different threads and the only real difference between the Hawaii jacket and temple jacket is a rounded stormflap edge and a trained collar. Please explain on how to train the collar for a "Hawaii" jacket look vs. a "temple" jacket look. I guess if your wanted the mismatched collar tips you could throw that in there to, but it sounds like as far as the way the collar itself works there is really no difference between the "hawaii" and "temple" except for training

Yep, that's right. And I think that it's quite possible the whole "one pointed, one rounded" is an illusion. It may not be, but the way that collar curves makes it achievable without wonky sewing.

OK, SO - The real "TRICK" is to wet down the collar, and make sure the stormflap side is moulded and bent how it should be. With my Nowak, it was pretty much like this anyway. I just had to kink the stormflap so that it has a definite bend rather than a curve OOTB.

THEN - to create the long, droopy side, take the collar edge and line it up to where the stand hits the shoulder seam. Then crease the collar to folded edge into place. You have to get the angle right when doing this. If you do, the whole shape you see in the movie just pops in there. You have to keep rolling, training it is it dries to get it to stay.
Once you do this, and see it in 3D, you can see how the nature of the way those lapels sit lends itself to an illusion of mismatched points.

DISCLAIMER: You may well only get the effect right with the Nowak-sized collar. It's got some wacky angles / dimensions. Also, the shrunken lamb gives it the right look via the texture and the way it lies - completely different lamb to what I've felt before. Also, Tony even put the patch of texture on the correct side of the collar that makes this inverse/converse collar look work and match the movie. Just awesome, and I didn't expect that.

neutronbomb wrote:2. How much did you downsize the pockets?

Not much - to 7.5 x 6.25. I got Tony to keep them in the same front/centre spots and remove .25 off both the height of the flap and off the pocket itself to even out the ratios so I wouldn't end up with one of the other disproportionate balances that are out there (and no, not talking about Dutch's thread)

neutronbomb wrote:I love how you have popped the collar in the back, but it curves back at the half way point. It's rare to see someone achieve that particular look with the collar. Super cool.

Thanks. And you know what? It's another of many little things that I didn't even notice it was doing this until I saw the photos. I just popped the collar and it kind of crumple/stands identically. Again, cool stuff, and it just seems it's because of the particular way the shrunken lamb behaves because of it's properties and thickness, and of course, the cut and training.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:42 pm

hey yojimbo.

Im curios to see the jacket half way zipped up like the raven bar look.

do you mind?

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 7:51 pm

N/P. How far zipped up? It seems to vary during those scenes a bit. Can you give me a shot to match?

Will get to it in the next day or 2 - visiting family for Easter hol. today.

Post by **Holt** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:02 pm

just the regular raven bar scene were he meets marion the first time after he walks in the door.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:06 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:just the regular raven bar scene were he meets marion the first time after he walks in the door.

Ok, zipped up to lower chest. Given I just lost my only pair of gloves in Japan

, It will have to be without them stuffed in the pocket.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 5:33 am

Great explanation Neutron.

I am going to try it right now in the kitchen with my rolling pin an iron! $\:D/$
Ok, I was joking....

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:41 pm

Sounds like a game of Clue....In the kitchen with a hammer, hitting a Nowak...

Or should I say NoWHACK

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:55 pm

NoWAY!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:47 am

"Just when I think I'm out...!"

Ok, Holt, here you go.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:48 am

Ha, see, your smile is askew to the wrong side

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:55 am

RCSignals wrote:Ha, see, your smile is askew to the wrong side

Hey, the jacket's a replica but the smile's all natural, baby!

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:06 am

neutronbomb wrote:Yojimbo, did TN send you the jacket with the "temple" collar or did you mold it from scratch.

I just sent him the bloody lip "Marion" shot and asked him to replicate the rounded off stand, saying I want the collar to look like that, but the context was the stand mod. I don't think he did anything beyond that on it as I think I did "move" the crease a bit. Because it hadn't broken in it didn't take too much work to do, though.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:30 am

Yeah, well I did give it a bit of a helping hand with that bit...

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:03 am

I actually think its because of the off the shoulder effect and the extra movement this jacket has while worn, and Ford's "action" posture. I think if you favour right-arm-forward action, the shoulder could well have a tendency to roll forward like that.

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:03 am

Thats the best looking Raiders collar I've seen. Yojimbo, thats one heck of a jacket you have there

Post by **Holt** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:14 am

looks great

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:23 pm

Thanks guys.

Something else for the "don't try this at home" files - you can create extra bubbling where you want with the shrunken lamb by wetting it down, letting it get 3/4 dry, and carefully stretching one way, then another. Creates extra ripples too, if you want them.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:06 am

Agreed NB , that's the only thing I worry about the goat....hopefully it will keep getting softer with wear and break in.....admitted I've only had experience with the 'old' wested 'hard shell' goat and the washed,not the newer soft BUT the shrunken lamb has no match for a "livin' breathin' movin' material" that continues to get better with time..........looking forward to Holt's, Rask's , Han's descriptions of the goat after break in period of months....

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27 am

the TOO short a jacket comments that are consistently given by Platon, Agent5, and DJ specifically related to Yojimbo's jacket are clearly biased.

Whatever, dude.

Biased by...what exactly? Since you seem to know all else, please let me know exactly what I'm biased about? I've also had many nice things to say about Tony and his jackets as well but those comments seem to get lost. What's even more funny is that this is still going back to personal opinions. You simply disagree and because you do that automatically makes us wrong, thus any opinions you can consider even slightly negative as biased. Look, we all know you're all knowing and all powerful so please, stop trying to prove us wrong when we know that in the end you'll just be correct and always the victor in this ever so important world topic.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:45 am

Riled?...no freakin way. I take pride in my words and felt a good deal of it when writing, as well as pity for you that you seem to feel you must always be correct. It gets old quick, like yesterday. I bet your personality traits are front and center stars of this HBO show you speak of since you do some pretty good heckling yourself. I can also tell by your "always right" mentality that you must not be short on insecurities yourself. Aren't we all?

I'll be sure to check it out if I see it on.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:08 pm

neutronbomb wrote:And it doesn't really bother me, but I suspect the mods aren't going to let this continue in this direction.

You're right. And when you feel the need to post such observations, it probably means that the thread needs to get back on topic. So everybody grab their stuffed bunnies and get back to the topic in hand, please.

Yojimbo Jones · Post by **Yojimbo Jones** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:42 am

Hey _, Unless I missed something, what happened in 2000?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:00 am

Thats when _ had access to and examined a raiders stunt jacket. But I have to say I remember reading those post in the archives and you didn't discuss the leather.

moses · Post by **moses** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:53 am

What's a shill?

_, any idea when the jacket write up will be posted - very much looking forward to reading the new info.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:06 am

Shill - guy who promotes, sells, loves some other maker's jaket but won't say he's actually associated with who he defends or promotes.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:07 am

Raider S wrote:Actually, it schill.

No its Shill, he means a plant, somebody plugging a product ordered by a company, basically advertising it.

Shills on the Internet

In online discussion media, satisfied consumers or "innocent" parties may express specific opinions in order to further the interests of an organization in which they have an interest, such as a commercial vendor or special-interest group. Websites may also be set up for the same purpose. For example, an employee of a company that produces a specific product may praise the product anonymously in a discussion forum or group in order to generate interest in that product, service or group. In addition, some shills use sock puppetry where they sign on as one user soliciting recommendations for a specific product or service. They then sign on as a different user pretending to be a satisfied customer of a specific company.

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:10 am

Dutch, doesn't trolling get boring? Or is this all there is for you? You should watch that movie The Wrestler.

Post by **Holt** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:14 am

ok, drop it...

this has not'n to do with the topic.

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:40 am

Could anyone tell me how may I find that thread in the archives? I have tried with the search mode but the furthest I can get is 2003... And it seems such an interesting topic.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:05 am

The entire event, as well as the eventual lead up to and creation of the G&B Expedition all took place at Indyfan.com, before Indygear ever came to be. You'll have to do your digging here:

http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/

It's all there, but you'll have to do some digging.

Regards! Michaelson

Raskolnikov · Post by **Raskolnikov** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:09 am

Ok. I see. I'll have to start diggin' then.
Thanks a lot.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:13 am

I went back to _'s 2003 posts on earliest page in active archives on his 'all massages posted link' and even then he was talking about the thinness of current and past Wested lamb as well as lack of 'grain'.......tried to post link but can't get to transfer .....maybe someone with more computer skill than I can.....it's on pg 40 or earliest of his pages of posts.....

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:15 am

...or, they can just go to page 40 and read it for themselves.

That's the fun of the hunt! Let's not spoon feed folks!

Regards! Michaelson

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:18 am

Sorry, didn't mean to take the 'thrill of the hunt out of it ', Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:20 am

Just kidding, old friend!

Here's one that's interesting, going back to 2000 when _ was posting his research for all to read, and catching just as much flack as he does today. Here's what one person wrote:

Posted by Brian K. from kbowen.xyplex.com on August 08, 2000 at 17:29:05:

In Reply to: Hey _ - Don't leave! Read this! posted by Richiana on August 08, 2000 at 15:00:54:

Hi All

I know I haven't posted in a long time but I have been watching the board, and well, I must say that this is really disturbing to me.

I must admit I'm mystified. _ is providing a service to all of us as well. Regardless of how Mr. Botwright conducts his business or whether he decides to continue offering this jacket I find his research invaluable.

Why, you ask? Put simply this is not a quest to force Wested's hand into producing a more authentic jacket, but a service provided by _ for those who really care. A majority of those who call or write to Peter want a Raiders style jacket and then wait the 2 or 3 months to get it, not really caring if the bi-swing a 1/2" too short or something like that.
For these people, what Peter provides is a great jacket that to them, looks just fine. For those who do care, Don't you find this invaluable that such a list as _'s EXISTS?!?! So that, if you choose, you could request all/some/none of these variations?

I certainly would. Add to this the time and energy he has poured into this...the countless hours squinting at still frames from the movies, checking the original production jacket this weekend. He has spent more time on this than 1/2 the people out there put into their jobs. I for one find this bashing of _ the ultimate in rudeness. His insights were
invaluable to me to get the proper fit, finish, and extra touches so that I would be as happy as possible with my jacket. I would never have known to request leather facings inside the jacket zipper, or a zipper on the inner pocket, but these types of things make the jacket ten times more enjoyable to me.

_, if you're listening I have to give you a hearty pat on the back and a job well done. It's unfortunate that everyone's forgotten that this is a hobby, and like any hobby it's supposed to be fun.

If Peter was offended by any comments/suggestions you made about the jacket, I still see no reason why it should affect his production of the jackets in any way. Worse case scenario, he ignores _ (and loses one of his best customers), best case we all get more authentic jackets in the future. I don't see the downside here for anyone to be upset with him.

I have never seen a post ANYWHERE where anyone told Peter to change the jacket...either by _ or anyone else.

Relax, chill out, Wested's not going anywhere, the jacket's not going anywhere and these attacks MUST stop, otherwise this ceases to be a hobby, in which case there's no reason for any of us to be here

Thanks for letting me vent,
Brian K.

Doesn't THIS sound familiar? This was posted NINE YEARS AGO!!! and the exact same discussions etc. are going on to this very day! Do you NOW see why the administration and mods are constantly pounding our heads against the wall (and not because it feels good when we stop either.

)

Anyway, there's you a 'start' date to do your reading. This was posted on Tuesday, August 8th. According to his statement, _ viewed the jacket that weekend, so it must have been August 5th or 6th, then posted his review around the 7th, so start there and go forward with your research.

A side note, for you Civil War folks, August 8th, 2000 was the same day they raised the CSA Huntley.
Regards! Michaelson

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:49 am

Great, I just spent the entire day searching for those posts in the Indyfan Vault and now Michealson posts the dates it started

(Just kidding Michaelson)

Seriously, It was a good thing I had to search for myself: I learned a lot of things and it was great fun. I recommend it to everyone here.

Regards, Geert

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:00 am

Neutron, great to 'have you on the case'......man, that side strap anchoring detail does sound a lot like the pics of the 'Bantu Wind'.......

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:32 am

gwyddion wrote:Great, I just spent the entire day searching for those posts in the Indyfan Vault and now Michealson posts the dates it started (Just kidding Michaelson)

Seriously, It was a good thing I had to search for myself: I learned a lot of things and it was great fun. I recommend it to everyone here.

Regards, Geert

Yep, it's not always arriving at the destination that's important, but the journey.....

You also pick up little nuances in separate posts that are completely overlooked in the 'general' threads by sifting through the discussions.

Regards! Michaelson

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:30 pm

_ wrote:LOL!

I love the the revisionism. Zen says the leather was never discussed - so it must be true. Actually, no...

Something sad happenned back in 2000. I never saw it coming but Michaelson did. The "needy" turned into the jeolous. They could not fathom actually having access to this stuff and could only find selfworth in casting doubt. I had forgotten Zen was one who "deep-ended" around this time.

The people who mattered, ie who put their necks out saw what they needed in the form of proof. Saddly every wanna be thought they should be included. People have a right to be protected from intrusive fans. Period.

"Old Boys" is often a reference used when one might be too "unstable" to be privy... Keep throwing rocks if that's what you need to feel good...

I never said the leather was never discussed, where you getting that from. If I said anything, I said I don't recall it ever being discussed. Reading what you wrote below, I don't see the leather texture being discussed, only the thickness.

That being said though, please don't confuse me as not liking TN's jacket.

On a side note, I have to defend Dutch_Jones... calling someone a shill isn't really fair, and if you are gonna call him one, you may as call supporters of TN's jacket one too. Just because someone has doubt, doesn't mean that they are working for another vendor and pushing their product by down talking this one.

Granted, for all I know, Dutch_Jones could be working for Wested, and Neutronbomb, Rc Signals and Raider S could be working for Tony. But I don't know that, as far as I know, they are just guys who like what they purchased, don't appreciate their choice being bashed and defend it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:34 pm

Indiana Holt wrote:ok, drop it...

this has not'n to do with the topic.

Last warning.

Michaelson

Raider S · Post by **Raider S** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:18 pm

Zendragon wrote:But I don't know that, as far as I know, they are just guys who like what they purchased, don't appreciate their choice being bashed and defend it.

I don't about anything I buy being "bashed". My satisfaction comes from what I wear everyday and how smart I was to have made that choice to begin with, not in tearing down someone else's jacket. What is trying, however, is to constantly see the same argument again and again from the same two or three people who enjoy doing harm for no reason other than to do harm.

Personally, I'm weary of the guys who demand "proof" from Tony Nowak like they deserve it because they are fans of a 30 year old movie. How about proof of the ORIGINAL jacket maker? I see a lot of contradictions there and my feeling is some of the Nowak bashing is a cover to keep people distracted that can of worms. Who in fact did make the original?

Zendragon · Post by **Zendragon** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:33 pm

Raider S wrote:
Zendragon wrote:But I don't know that, as far as I know, they are just guys who like what they purchased, don't appreciate their choice being bashed and defend it.
I don't about anything I buy being "bashed". My satisfaction comes from what I wear everyday and how smart I was to have made that choice to begin with, not in tearing down someone else's jacket. What is trying, however, is to constantly see the same argument again and again from the same two or three people who enjoy doing harm for no reason other than to do harm.

Personally, I'm weary of the guys who demand "proof" from Tony Nowak like they deserve it because they are fans of a 30 year old movie. How about proof of the ORIGINAL jacket maker? I see a lot of contradictions there and my feeling is some of the Nowak bashing is a cover to keep people distracted that can of worms. Who in fact did make the original?

but that doesn't make you a shill ;-)

And as far as proof... I don't think it is unreasonable to ask such a thing when someone says that they did something yet offer nothing to support what they are saying, outside of circumstantial observations. Again, not saying that it didn't happen. But also can't say that I am certain that it did.

As far as proof of the original jacket maker... We can only go by what has been said by people like Noel Howard. To be totally honest, there is more proof of TN making the Indy 4 jackets than there is of the original jacket maker.

Post by **COW Admin** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:38 pm

If moderators continue to be ignored, and this thread continues to go off topic, suspensions will occur.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:09 pm

Has anyone gotten a NEW Indy1 lately, different leather,tweaks etc, looking to match a particular scene or look.......seems like a new pic dry spell.....

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:15 pm

Tony has promised me a replacement jacket made with this cowhide. I'll post a pic when I get it.

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Whiskey can you tell or what has he said about the suppleness, drape of this batch of cow.......the only thing that makes me a little slow to try something besides the shrunken lamb is how it drapes, molds, moves on the body??

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:29 pm

neutronbomb wrote:Well this is Yojimbo's thread about his jacket and it looks like all of page 5 is off topic. I would like to explore more on the jacket that _ examined and how it may relate if at all to the bantu wind jacket. I'll post on the Bantu thread for that.

It appears that we all want to discuss, debate, and argue about shills, biases, bashing, and express our thoughts on those subjects as it relates to the ROLA jacket. Maybe we could start a thread to hash this stuff out and get it off our chests. The title could be, "shilling dead horses". Just an idea, but I suspect approval would have to come from the admin's for this thread or I'd just start it myself. It may give an outlet to what's always spilling out across multiple threads.

To try and get back on topic with this thread I think it was very interesting what Yojimbo was discussing about his "temple" jacket having the standard "Hawaii" collar, but depending on how it's molded it can become the "temple" collar. I think this is a very valuable insight from Yojimbo and I appreciate his contribution to understanding more about the original ROLA jackets and the differences we see in them.

I think the perspective is thrown off a bit by his long arms when discussing the length of his jacket because it clearly matches HF in his comparison photos. I'm very interested to see how the jacket evolves after it becomes more "beat up".

Neutron could you and/or Yohimbo go over the process again maybe with a few pics or drawings still not 100% sure on the 'where shoulder seam meets collar tip and direction of creases etc'.......thanks

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:39 pm

Hatch wrote:Whiskey can you tell or what has he said about the suppleness, drape of this batch of cow.......the only thing that makes me a little slow to try something besides the shrunken lamb is how it drapes, molds, moves on the body??

Tony sent me a bunch of leather samples and asked me to choose a hide - i chose that one. Seems tough yet not too heavy, has a nice interesting grain, good colour, good underneath colour...

Hatch · Post by **Hatch** » Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:47 pm

Whiskey, it looks like a good choice for grain.....does it have brown undertones ?...does pic just make it look dark grey/black ?.......looking forward to hearing you take on the drape compared to the lamb you had (man, that was a good looking jacket in pics)....sorry it didn't work out......