Legal Carry - Barrel Plug and Dummy Rounds

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:09 am

Here is a question for the legal beagles out there.

With the many public events that will undoubtably come up after the movie I would like to be able to carry my Webley WG in my holster as part of a complete Indy presentation. Would putting a temporary orange plug in the barrel as shown in the photos allow me to carry it legally? What about the orange plugs in the dummy rounds? I would also use a zip tie to secure the hammer so that the trigger could not be pulled.

I know that you can bring a firearm into a public place like a gun show as long as the gun is zip tied. But what about a movie premier or costume party?

If anyone is wondering the orange plugs are the foam ear protectors that you can get at any gun or sporting goods shop.

IB

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:49 am

Unless you have a concealed carry license, "I" wouldn't do it, even with the zip tie and dummy rounds. A replica, sure, but not the real thing.
I can see a police officer confiscating it even with the "mods," just because it IS real steel.

Russ

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:31 am

That little orange plug isn't going to stop a live round if you chose to swap 'em in.

I think you'd be crazy to carry that in public as a costume piece.

Indiana Neri · Post by **Indiana Neri** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:47 am

I wouldn't chance it either, but I do, however, like what you did with the dummy rounds. I thought it was quite clever, Bond.

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:55 am

Basically you havent got a leg to stand on.
Carrying a concealable firearm with out a valid reason or permit, aand I mean valid reason "part of my costume" does not count.

Dummy rounds, no rounds, live rounds makes no difference. I kinda doesn't work, when someone points a gun at you and you ask , Hey do you mind if I check ya bullets?

Even a deacatviated firearm will get you in major trouble as well. The law in most countries makes no difference between a fake gun pointed at someone and a real one.

just my 2 cents worth.

IJ.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:08 pm

The key word there is" Concealed" carry. If anyone can tell you are carry it , it isn't concealed and you are in violation of permit.

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:52 pm

Concealed carry also covers carrying in a holster in plain view...
If however the firearm is secured in a suitable container for the express purpose of moving from one storage location to another without ammunition stored in the same container, then that is not covered under CCW. Local permits may very, however CCW covers carriage upon the person or luggage bag but not in locked secure container.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:06 pm

Thanks to everyone so far giving their input. I would like to hear more commments from others. Here is how I understand some parts of the law.

1. The gun, if carried in a externally worn holster, is not considered a concealed weapon, thus it does not fall under the need to have a concealed weapons permit. I know that in many states such as Montana people do carry a handgun in an external holster with no problem. Here in Los Angeles it's probably a different story though!

2. The gun is zip tied, it is identified as inert with the orange plug, and there is no live ammo that will fit the gun anywhere close. Does this not make it basically the same as a toy gun or prop? It is a totally harmless hunk of steal.

3. The orange plug identifies it as a "prop" to any police officer along with the fact that your are probably also carrying a whip and wearing a fedora and jacket. It would be obvious that it is just part of a costume. You are carrying the gun for a reason that is not connected with any illegal action.

4. Why is it OK to cary this way at a public gun show and not at a costume party? Especially considering it would be a lot easier to find some ammo that would work in the gun at a gun show versus a costume party!

I realize that the gun laws in the U.S. are often stupid and make no sense. And I figure if a police officer really wanted to, he could bust you for carrying a water pistol if he felt you where using it in a dangerous or threatening manner. I would surmiss that it would probably be up to a judge in a courtroom to decide if carrying a zip tied, orange plugged, unloaded handgun while dressed as Indiana Jones at a costume party is legal or not.

The question is do you want to go through all of that to find out!

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:21 pm

I think the trouble is that you are using the orange plug to falsely identify the weapon as a prop. It's not a costume piece, it's a live weapon. If you so chose, you could cause harm with it. Not so with a real toy (well, unless it's heavy and you hit people in the face with it.)

When you go to a gun show, visitors expect live firearms to be there. Not necessarily so when they go to a costume party.

Whether or not you're a threat is up to the local authorities to determine. Question is whether you want to risk having guns drawn on you in order to determine it. So the question you should be asking yourself is, "Do I feel lucky?"

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:24 pm

Even with the plug and unloaded, it is still a fully functional firearm and will be treated as a firearm by law enforcement. Most laws on carry do not differentiate between loaded and unloaded carry on the body (as opposed to the previously described transport regs).

Carry in a holster Indy style is "open carry" not "concealed" and California does differentiate between the two.

http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

-BUT-

LA itself might have additional rules as will the theatres and such.

You need to get on the horn to a local shooting organization and get in touch with a local attorney before you walk out the door.

Carry laws are not a topic for supposition, there's no "but I thought" exemptions for violations.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:15 pm

I you were in UT, you could carry a gun on a holster without any permit whatsoever. There may be specific cities that would modify the law locally. As long as the gun or hoster is visible on three sides (like when it's mounted on a belt) you're good to go. This is for real guns loaded with ammo. But if you're in some parts of CA, watch out.

Yeah, in L.A. you're toast if it's a real gun and they find out. I imagine there is potential for jail time, possible fine, and weapon confiscation, but I don't know what the law prescribes or dictates in those parts. Boy what a difference location makes.

IndyWannaBee · Post by **IndyWannaBee** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:16 pm

You are definitely taking your chance carrying that piece in a holster and putting in the orange safety plug really makes no difference.

We debated this to death regarding carrying around the Captain Jack Master Replica piece as well as those who modified the plastic toy making it look more realistic.

You are bound by the facilities rules as well as any other rules that pertains to the event (Con, movie showing, etc.).

When we attended the Pirates marathon at the El Capitan theater in Los Angeles we were wanded by metal detectors. All replicas were wanded as well even though they were resin props.

I attended another event with the flintlock tucked into my belt fully exposed and had the local police officers running security follow me into the event and were hanging around my peripheral eyeballing the weapon. I finally approached them and showed them it was a prop. At the same time others were running around with their Star Trek phasers in full view as well but we all know those are fake!

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:55 pm

Thanks again for all the great comments!! As I suspected, from reading the link that carebear posted, it seems that even in California you can technically carry a loaded gun in a holster as long as it's not concealed. Thus carrying an unloaded gun is also technically legal as long as you are not in any restricted areas such as schools or post offices.

Now, even though it may be legal, it's probably not a very good idea to do so! As was stated by IndyWannaBee there may be specific local laws that create restrictions along with any rules that apply to the event that you are attending. Plus, with things the way they are nowadays, it would probably cause a public "scare". So at any "public" event it would be best to keep those holsters empty!

Now at a private get together, such as a costume party at a friends house, as long as you have permission from the owner of the house, there would be no problem carrying the handgun in the holster. Even a real one.

Let's keep the comments comming as there may be something that we all have missed. Also any stories of real life experiances with your guns in public would be great to share at this time also.

It's a shame that our society has become so paranoid. In Indy's time this type of discussion would never have been neccessary as we as Americans had a full understanding and appreciation of our Second Amendment Rights.

RC Halliburton · Post by **RC Halliburton** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:59 pm

I'm going to cast my vote on the "NO" side.

From personal experience, I can assure you that law enforcement/security will definitely err on the side of PUBLIC SAFETY, and you will be asked to step outside/lay face-down on the pavement, while they check out the bonafides of your weapon/permit/etc. (I've been lucky enough to survive looking down the barrel of the patrolman's 12 gauge, but it was an unpleasant experience.) While doing so, there will be discussion amongst them as to which book they can throw at you.
Barring any actual law, they may ask/drag you, downtown so they can keep an eye on you and your piece, while they delve deeper into the law books, looking for one to throw at you.

You may get a great story that'll get you a beer or two at the bar, but the hassle, and DANGER is frankly, not worth it.

Why blow the fun of opening night with a boot on your neck, and having your car ransacked? Who knows, if you are carrying a 100+ year old pistol on your person, you may have a Carl Gustav Anti-Tank Missile in your trunk. ;-)

That's how they look at it!

Buy a $3.99 squirt gun, leave it orange or green and stick that in your holster. Showing those interested, a nice 5x7 glossy of your Webley will be fun enough. Join a reenacting group, and you'll have plenty of chances to wear your pistol!

Good Luck,
Halliburton

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:09 pm

Halliburton,

Great advice! That's also why I'm a member of SASS. Get to wear and shoot every weekend!

IB

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:21 pm

Halliburton,

Thanks for answering my poll. I have a question. If you are carrying a prop gun that looks just like the real thing, what stops the chance that law enforcement won't hold you at gunpoint until they find out it's just a toy? Could they not also arrest you for causing a public scare even though it's just a toy?

I agree you won't be in as deep as if you were carrying a real gun, but, before they could discover that, they would sure would treat you as if you had the real thing.

Let me know. Thanks!

IB

Rook · Post by **Rook** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:10 pm

I think it all boils down to a combination of common sense, and paranoia.

Common sense dictates that you don't whip out even a replica gun unless
it's perhaps for a photo op, and even then only after consideration of your
surroundings.

Paranoia dictates that you treat EVERY weapon (even a solid cast one
made from resin) like a real weapon. If it's in the holster, and a police
officer approaches you, you treat them with the utmost respect and
courtesy. In a convention situation ALL the police I've encountered
have been extremely interested in the prop guns, and courteous when
they ask to see them.

However, waving a realistic gun about in a public venue is just asking for
trouble, depending on the circumstances.

Russ

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:17 pm

Hey Russ,

How's it comming with the WG reproduction? My name is on the list and now you know why! Will we have them by "the day"?

IB

ANZAC_1915 · Post by **ANZAC_1915** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:20 pm

IndigoJuliet wrote:Concealed carry also covers carrying in a holster in plain view...

What? So what is NOT concealed then? Carrying it in a holster on your hip is pretty much plain sight.

RC Halliburton · Post by **RC Halliburton** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:09 pm

I reckon if you're on a movie set, or at a well posted public event, there will be more tolerance.
You may be able to get by at a costume party. Internal security may be cool with it, but the local law enforcement types may not.
I transport all my weapons in locking travel cases, and keep replicas in boxes or out of sight.
I try to avoid any "Reasonable Cause" red flags that may instigate searches or questioning.

I don't have any illegal weapons, but some of these guys don't know ALL the laws and they seem to have adopted the "Kill them all, and let God sort them out" attitude.

Back in the 80's we had a Machine Gun very obviously made from plastic tubing and 2x4s mounted to a vehicle on top of an old camera tripod for a video shoot, and we got the riot act from the local constables. My previously mentioned encounter with the PD's 12 gauge arose from playing with cap guns in a big deserted field. I was a kid back then and we still got roasted for hours.
You may remember the halloween party in LA several years ago, where a party-goer was killed by the PD?
http://home.pacbell.net/rsdotson/source ... 0Party.htm

True, this buffoon did point his gun at the cops, but they always seem to be on high alert nowadays.
"So long as the paperwork's clean, you boys can do what you like out there"

Some chaps have brought live weapons on the Queen Mary for events. All it takes is one uninformed visitor to call the cops, and everyone will have a bad evening while the law sweeps through.

The Queen Mary recently held an reenacting event, and all participants were requested to REMOVE FIRING PINS OR BOLTS from their weapons in th edisplays, JUST IN CASE.

Snakewhip_Sable · Post by **Snakewhip_Sable** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:12 pm

RC Halliburton wrote:"So long as the paperwork's clean, you boys can do what you like out there."

Kudos on the Mad Max line.

RC Halliburton · Post by **RC Halliburton** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:18 pm

A point to Mr. Sable! I mean, a PINT to Mr. Sable.

"He sings, and I tap dance.";-)

Indiana · Post by **Indiana** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:33 pm

Your best bet is that if you do NOT have a Concealed Carry License, then do not carry a live handgun. Period. Even if it has orange or it it's hidden, exposed, anything. If you do, then have fun and carry it!!

I turned 18 a month ago and have already applied for my lifetime CCL. I'm lucky that I live in Indiana, it's one of only 5 or 6 states that allow people to get a CCL at 18. Just waiting to get it back. Should be here this month...

Terryhimself · Post by **Terryhimself** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:56 pm

This goes under the even if you are right your wrong. Are you willing to see your collectors revolver melted down. Police agencys in the U.S. are increasingley destroying any firearm they come into possesion of. If they get into trouble later, they say oops, sorry and might write you a check for the lowest value they can. In Maryland, departments are noted for going to a residence, locking up a family member for a crime and confiscating all firearms no matter who owns them. If a person can not prove registration of the firearm ( not a law until I think 1996) the firearm is destroyed.
Our local News Reporters love showing the firearms being thrown into the smelters and burned.
Again just a thought....Terry

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:33 am

Minnesota (or was it just Minneapolis?) just put thru some law recently on realistic resin guns in public. I'm sure we're not the only ones. At least with the Indy Holsters, the flap helps disguise the fact if there is no gun in it. And with ToD, no gun in the holster IS screen accurate...

I usually display my resin guns at shows, cons, etc. But rarely in the holster. As crimes get more violent and resin guns show up more in violent crimes, just be on the lookout for more laws cracking down on these.

Chewie Louie · Post by **Chewie Louie** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:34 am

The desire to carry a gun in a holster just to complete a costume has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:01 am

ANZAC_1915 wrote:
IndigoJuliet wrote:Concealed carry also covers carrying in a holster in plain view...
What? So what is NOT concealed then? Carrying it in a holster on your hip is pretty much plain sight.

Thank you

Someone who understands the word concealed.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:45 am

In almost every state, a holster worn on a belt, not covered by another garment, is "open carry" not concealed.

The almost universal key to "concealed" under the law is whether a gun can be identified as a gun without moving aside a garment.

A firearm in a firearm holster is obviously not "unidentifiable as a firearm".

The desire to carry a gun in a holster just to complete a costume has got to be one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of.

Why?

If it's legal to do so, why not carry a gun in a holster to complete a costume? What makes it dumb?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:53 am

The reason for concealed carry is somepeople might feel uncomfortable.

nicktheguy · Post by **nicktheguy** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:06 am

The reason that it may not be the best idea to pack around a fake/deactivated/real/resin/ firearm as part of a costume is the "what if" factor....
What if a law enforcement officer sees it and calls in for ERT...people have had this happen to them
What if a person mistakes it for being real and calls it in
What if it gets drawn and aimed at someone (even if it's not real)...there are laws everywhere that make this act illegal...

..there are so many more "what ifs" that you should consider before putting that gun in the holster to complete the look.

I know people who have made pistol grip stuffers for holsters to make it look like the holster is occupied. If asked, it's immediately recognized as a bar with a grip on it, nothing that can be mistaken for a firearm when outside the holster.

carebear · Post by **carebear** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:09 am

nicktheguy wrote:The reason that it may not be the best idea to pack around a fake/deactivated/real/resin/ firearm as part of a costume is the "what if" factor....
What if a law enforcement officer sees it and calls in for ERT...people have had this happen to them
What if a person mistakes it for being real and calls it in
What if it gets drawn and aimed at someone (even if it's not real)...there are laws everywhere that make this act illegal...

..there are so many more "what ifs" that you should consider before putting that gun in the holster to complete the look.

I know people who have made pistol grip stuffers for holsters to make it look like the holster is occupied. If asked, it's immediately recognized as a bar with a grip on it, nothing that can be mistaken for a firearm when outside the holster.

If it's legal, as it would be in many states, the what if's don't apply.

Location, location, location.

Indiana Bond · Post by **Indiana Bond** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:59 am

Yes, what has happened to this country and our second amendment rights?! Now only criminals carry weapons. An upstanding, honest citizen can't even carry a toy gun while wearing a costume, without the chance of getting arrested! Boy, how things have changed since the days of Indy!

IB

IndigoJuliet · Post by **IndigoJuliet** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:37 am

Concealed/Cancelable Carry Weapons, Semantics and wording per state regs, read the permits and the state laws pertaining to your area, I thought some people on this forum had more intelligence (How wrong was I).

If you are a member of a firearm club, or state firearm body then the question is mute, as a responsible member, you would know.

This is the most important fact “Be Responsible” Check the local laws, just saying I was on a forum and so and so said… will not cut it in court.

I have worked for Police departments, and where I lived and competed locally the laws were very strict. To even take my pistols from my bolted down, fire proof almost indestructible safe to the range, they had to be carried in a secured case chained to the car boot, no ammo, and I had to have a 0 alcohol blood level whilst in transit and shooting, get caught, lose both my licenses, my car, pistols and suffer a long jail term. I kid you not.

The simple point is check with the local authorities, check with the police in your area, and in fact perhaps even tell them as a courteousy.

Sound pedantic? Tough, if it’s real its not a toy, used for a prop, or whatever it’s a firearm, (Bruce Lees son was killed by a prop pistol…)

IF ITS REAL then there is a big difference between a “toy looking gun” and a REAL ONE.

Its not a toy and you should not treat it as such, being cavalier about it, won’t help you in court if you do run into trouble., showing responsibility will.

BTW There are crowd control rounds that look exactly like your dummy rounds, boy do they hurt… wont kill you but they will maim if put into the wrong spot.

CHECK STATE LAWS AND REGULATIONS. They are different state to state country to country; wording is also different, concealed carry or concealable carry in some places means the same thing as does permit to carry. Openly brandishing a firearm in some counties and states is not a problem.. as I found in a small town in Texas, however do it somewhere else, say hello to MR Swat and the RED DOT.

Most police offices are reasonable, some are just down right storm troopers, without a sense of humor and a limited interpretation of the law. (e.g. they take a narrow view other than a broad view)

Carebear conceable firearm is a pistol, open carry or not . Legal or not it also carries the word responsible use, and thats open to interruptation, by the public, the police officer, the police officer pointing his gun at you and the judge.

Correct if you have permission form the householder, do as you wish, in a public gathering I would also check with the organizers, its called being responsible.

The question you have to ask your self is “am I going with a real firearm to be authentic or to just show off”.

I am afraid the real firearm, responsible, and authentic do not work in public for costume, it is purely an ego thing… and shows no responsibility or maturity and reflects poorly on the firearm owning community. ( that’s my opinion, and I am a firearm lover/collector, ex services and I like hunting and competing, but I was brought up with a strict upbringing and respect for a firearm and the responsibilities of owning one) (BTW zip lock and be off in seconds and its useable again)

If however you are at a Firearm met and the firearm is going to be used, then that is a different matter. (Like some of the western revival shoots)

I for one would not feel comfortable with someone walking around in a public costume party with a zip locked firearm... (I would if I knew them)

Sorry you have touched on subject that I take passionately and have had to suffer because some people have not taken their responsibilities seriously.

Indiana Bond the last statement is what has happend, people not doing the right thing has made it tougher.. I do remember the good old days and miss them.

:evil: Rant off…

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:50 am

Okay, folks, this has gone on long enough. Suffice to say, the SAFEST and WISEST idea would be to use a prop gun and NOT a true firearm for costume purposes. Period. Laws vary from state to state and country to country and you are bound by them, so choose wisely. You are responsible for your own actions, and if they land you in trouble or jail or you lose a real or prop gun, it is no one else's responsibility but your own. You suffer the consequences. This is not a forum for political debate on the subject (as posted in the sticky at the top of this forum) so this argument has gone as far as it can. Read the thread above and be responsible and sensible in your actions.

Legal Carry - Barrel Plug and Dummy Rounds

Legal Carry - Barrel Plug and Dummy Rounds

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