Herbert Johnson Poet, Indy Fedora question

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:58 pm

GCR,

if richard swales prepped the hat himself, i would pay the difference.....then i'd wear a bubble on my head to protect the hat...i'll look like a giant indy snowglobe

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:45 am

Indiana G wrote:GCR,

if richard swales prepped the hat himself, i would pay the difference.....then i'd wear a bubble on my head to protect the hat...i'll look like a giant indy snowglobe

I hear ya! I'm planning on ordering an HJ from Todd very soon. I've already stated that I don't think I could bring myself to wear it out much. It's more of a collector piece for me, just to have a hat with the HJ name that will probably make a fine LC hat. But if I had me a "Swales" HJ, that'd be a different story, forget about wearing it, I'd probably keep it under lock & key!!!

Indiana_Tone wrote:GCR: Yeah. That's steep! They really don't want to sell them directly, do they?

Yeah Tone, I'm not sure HJ even wants to sell these things at ALL. Everything I've seen from and heard about HJ over the last few years, not only in terms of products but also marketing, customer service, etc. has led me to believe that they actually do not care one ounce about trying to tap into the potential business of the Indy Gear community. Nor do they care much about catering to our requests regarding their products. I truly believe they rely solely on the established history and fame of the HJ name to sell overpriced products to many people who don't really know better, or are merely buying it for the HJ name. I mean no offense to those who have purchased HJ's or wear HJ's, etc. Most of us here know when we buy a new HJ, it won't be an accurate Raiders hat. Most of us have done our homework. But the casual fan with some money in his pocket, looking for an Indy hat, might stumble across the story of "the hat", look up HJ, and spend a LOT of money on not a lot of hat. If HJ can get a someone to pay over $300 for one of those sorry looking hats, well, good for them, I guess.

I seriously doubt HJ will ever change their ways. They really have no reason to, after all, they are/were "hatters to the queen", they don't need gearheads to keep them in business.

Hey, G,

What are the specs on those Todd HJ's? Crown height, brim width, etc? Is the brim dimensionally cut to the Swales specs? How was the felt thickness and quality?

-GCR

geo · Post by **geo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:13 am

Todd's and SAW have the same price, at least when you order from Canada.
Todd's is US$ 240+20 for bashing =US$260=CA$300(X1.15, rate varies) X1.37 (for 37% tax) = CA$411+delivery.
SAB is 165 UK pounds X0.85 (UKVAT tax does not apply for overseas) = 140UKpoundsX2.15 (rate varies) X 1.37 (tax) = CA$412+delivery.

Most of us here know when we buy a new HJ, it won't be an accurate Raiders hat. Most of us have done our homework. But the casual fan with some money in his pocket, looking for an Indy hat, might stumble across the story of "the hat", look up HJ, and spend a LOT of money on not a lot of hat. If HJ can get a someone to pay over $300 for one of those sorry looking hats, well, good for them, I guess

You probably write this because you don't have an HJ yourself, because once you do, you will realize that it's not a sorry looking hat at all, and in fact it's the hat that looks the most Indy, and can even make an accurate Raiders hat. When I got mine, and after reading mainly negative comments here, I was so surprized by the accuracy of the hat, that I expected Harrison Ford to crawl out of the box from under the hat.

hp · Post by hp » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:38 am

You probably write this because you don't have an HJ yourself, because once you do, you will realize that it's not a sorry looking hat at all, and in fact it's the hat that looks the most Indy, and can even make an accurate Raiders hat. When I got mine, and after reading mainly negative comments here, I was so surprized by the accuracy of the hat, that I expected Harrison Ford to crawl out of the box from under the hat.

Well, you have to differentiate between Raiders, ToD and LC style...

I have an HJ, bought end of 2005 from indyfedora.com, the same hat Todd is offering.
I wouldn't say it makes a good Raiders, but it makes a very good LC because of the dimensional cut, the block shape, the ribbon - still not 100% screen accurate but close.

Cheers
HP

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:06 am

I wouldn't mind owning a Herbert Johnson for the name, but I'd also wear it to formals and functions in which I could wear it with a suit. That doesn't sound all that bad. Does anyone know if there is anyone anywhere who will reblock a modern day HJ?

moses · Post by **moses** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:23 am

I don't think you should over estimate the HJs that Swales put out. When I met him in London some years ago, the hat he showed me that he had just styled for a customer was awful. The guy did not know how to bash a hat. Needless to say, I didn't buy one off him. I did later buy a couple of open crown poets and I did like them very much although they taperd a little too quickly.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:48 am

geo wrote:Todd's and SAW have the same price, at least when you order fronm Canada.
Todd's is US$ 240+20 for bashing =US$260=CA$300(X1.15, rate varies) X1.37 (for 37% tax) = CA$411+delivery.
SAB is 165 UK pounds X0.85 (UKVAT tax does not apply for overseas) = 140UKpoundsX2.15 (rate varies) X 1.37 (tax) = CA$412+delivery.

Most of us here know when we buy a new HJ, it won't be an accurate Raiders hat. Most of us have done our homework. But the casual fan with some money in his pocket, looking for an Indy hat, might stumble across the story of "the hat", look up HJ, and spend a LOT of money on not a lot of hat. If HJ can get a someone to pay over $300 for one of those sorry looking hats, well, good for them, I guess
You probably write this because you don't have an HJ yourself, because once you do, you will realize that it's not a sorry looking hat at all, and in fact it's the hat that looks the most Indy, and can even make an accurate Raiders hat. When I got mine, and after reading mainly negative comments here, I was so surprized by the accuracy of the hat, that I expected Harrison Ford to crawl out of the box from under the hat.

I'm not trying to say that HJ's are sorry looking pieces of garbage. Just that the hat pictured on the current SAB site doesn't quite look up to snuff with what Todd has to offer. Todd's HJs look great, pre-bashed or open crown, while the SAB HJ looks rather sad.

And I'm not saying an HJ couldn't make an accurate Raiders hat, just that it won't be an accurate Raiders hat right out of the box. I say this because it does not have the correct bow on the ribbbon, the correct block shape and perhaps even the correct brim width for Raiders. That's what I mean by "homework". For those of us striving for extreme accuracy, the HJ might not be the best bet. Especially when you compare the price with that of an AB, which has the correct bow, block shape and a brim width you can specify to suit your taste, and never mind the price difference.

I don't mean to take away from anyone who has an HJ and loves their HJ. That's not my point. I've already said I plan to buy one myself. Plus the whole "different strokes for different folks" argument which has started in another thread can be applied here as well. My point is that for many of us, the quest has been for an Indy hat that has the right look, shape & details right out of the box. The HJ just seems like it needs a little work, and for the price, it shouldn't.

-GCR

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:58 am

Just wanted to weigh in here, I have an HJ from Todd and an Akubra Fed sitting next to each other on a book shelf. When I glance at them, it's kinda funny... The Fed, a great hat, almost has that Top Hat, boxy look, while the HJ, for some reason has "Raiders" all over it. I don't know why, it just screams Indy... But I love em both.

MB

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:17 am

the top hat boxy look IS the raiders look which is probably best seen in the seaclipper scene when it is still mint. sit on the fed, and then kick it around like a soccer ball and violla.....the HJ doesn't look much like raiders anymore.

i also received an HJ from todd this year. it has a slight taper so i removed the raiders bash and put in a TOD bash kind of like how i did it in "the smithbilt project". this is where i realized the sides were cut pretty short. too short for anything out of the 3 movies. do you have this on your HJ?

i have an e-mail enquirry into todd to see if wider brims on the side can be obtained. i also have an e-mail into SAB to see if they want my money but i'm not gonna hold my breath as i enclosed a long list of questions as well (....why does the hat on your website look like cr@p?...but more professional-like).

geo · Post by **geo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:46 am

The brim is 2 3/4 front and back and 2 1/2 on the sides, that is standard for HJs.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:32 pm

Indiana G wrote:the top hat boxy look IS the raiders look which is probably best seen in the seaclipper scene when it is still mint. sit on the fed, and then kick it around like a soccer ball and violla.....the HJ doesn't look much like raiders anymore.

Uh-oh, this little can of worms, again, eh?

The seaplane hat was a different hat, so it's not fair to use that as an example of the "Raiders" hat before it got all distressed and worn. The hat Muren wore as the spy shadowing Jones on the plane is probably a "real" Raiders hat. But then again, the clipper hat does have that box like look, so you're right about that. If anything, it looks even more "boxy" than the regular Raiders hat to me.

Indiana G wrote:I also received an HJ from todd this year. it has a slight taper so i removed the raiders bash and put in a TOD bash kind of like how i did it in "the smithbilt project". this is where i realized the sides were cut pretty short. too short for anything out of the 3 movies.

What are the specs on your HJ and what size is your hat? Heck, while we're at it, how about a few pics? I'm thinking about getting one of Todd's HJs, but if your hat size is anywhere near mine (7 3/8 ) and the brim is too short for you, I might have to rethink this.

Indiana G wrote:i have an e-mail enquirry into todd to see if wider brims on the side can be obtained. i also have an e-mail into SAB to see if they want my money but i'm not gonna hold my breath as i enclosed a long list of questions as well (....why does the hat on your website look like cr@p?...but more professional-like).

Nice work, keep us posted!

geo wrote:The brim is 2 3/4 front and back and 2 1/2 on the sides, that is standard for HJs.

Those brim specs never seemed right for the Raiders hat to me. The Raiders brim always seems wider. Of course, it could be the distortion caused by the turn, but I suppose we'll never know until someone does a surveyor's style study on the brim, similar to what Fedora had doen with the others specs on the Raiders hat.

-GCR

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:47 pm

Sorry, I haven't checked in here for a while.

Brim is 2 7/8" front and rear, and sides are 2 1/2" - 2 5/8". They come pre-cut from the factory, and the dimensions are the same regardless of size. Crown height is 5 1/2". The felt is 2mm thick. I specify less stiffener in my hats and they come nice and soft, but still hold their shape.

The block is a little tall in the back and the only problem with doing the raiders style is that you can't quite push the back down far enough. But they do look very nice if styled right, and do conjure up the Indy image immediately. The block shape is definitely the same as TOD and LC.

The Poets from the Cambridge facility are not the hats offered from SAB. I had a SAB indy hat here recently and it was stiff as a board and had a teardrop crown. Definitely NOT the same hat I get. It did look a lot like a Dorfman 554 fur felt Indy hat (it wasn't, but it looked similar.)

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:08 pm

GCR,

specs on the HJ are pretty close to what geo wrote in on. the side widths are 2 1/2" bang on, but front and back is a hair over 2 3/4" but less than 3". the crown height is 4 1/2" from brim to the centre bash and considering that the bash is not as deep as fedora's i would assume that it is has a 5" open crown height.

my hat is currently a size 59 which is a tadd too loose unless i wear it up high on my head...which i normally do not do. the ribbon is 1.5" wide and the bow is pretty much the same as what you see on the website.

i received a message back from SAB and they are saying that they would recommend a size 57 hat for a 22 1/2" head....that is 2 sizes down from what i have now so i am questioning if this is the exact same hat as todd's. according to his site, he would recommend a size 58 hat.

geo, whats that 37% tax in your calculation for todd's hat?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:14 pm

todd,

did SAB's hat come from the same block as your hat? they mentioned to me that they can style it any way i want. what are the differences between the enlish hat and your hat besides price?

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:34 pm

Thanks Todd & Indiana G!

Size 59 (Akubra) is my size, but I think I'll be getting an HJ from Todd soon, anyway. 2 1/2 inches still seems a bit narrow for a Raiders hat, but if I were to get an HJ, it'd be for an LC look as the current HJ block shape and bow design seem better suited to that style of Indy hat. I checked out some shots of me wearing my old Dorfman Pacific wool felt from 10 years ago, and the brim width on that didn't look too bad (I think the dorfman brim is 2 1/2 inches all around). I was afraid the 2 1/2 brim would be too narrow for my face. Of course, those pics were from 10 years ago, I quit smokin' nearly 3 years ago, and gained a few pounds, so my face is a bit less "Harrison Ford" and a bit more "George Lucas" these days.

-GCR

geo · Post by **geo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:54 pm

The 37 % tax is the tax that all of us here in Canada have to pay when purchasing goods made in the non-NAFTA zone, i. e. not made in Canada, USA or Mexico. It's broken down into a 19% duty, and 15% PST-GST applied on top of the duty. So for every 100$, you pay 19$ duty and the PST-GST is applied not on the $100 value, but on $119. So, you have to multiply the value of the goods by 0.19 (19%) and then multiply the result by 0.15 (15%), which comes to multiplying by 37% in total.
Oh, and there's also a 5$ handling fee.

Different brim widths will look good on different face types. Many trim their Feds because the brim is too wide, and for me the 2 1/2 is perfect. Any more brim would make me look like Pancho Villa instead of Indy.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:56 pm

nice one GCR,

i just spoke to todd and unfortunately he is out of size 58's at the moment but should be getting them in stock any day now.

here is my second message to SAB:

- i was wondering how familiar you are with bashing the hat per the "raiders" spec. i have heard accounts where your hat comes with more of a 'tear drop' crown instead of a centre line bash. also, the hat in the website below looks quite different than the movie hat in raiders of the lost ark. the rear of the crown looks quite higher than the front which is not entirely correct. i am sorry to sound quite nitpicky, but i have several hats from other manufacturers including an HJ from a US source. i am interested in getting the hat directly from the place where ford and spieldburg got THE HAT and i was hoping to get it as close to the original as possible (though i know this is impossible as i have heard that the original hat block has been lost).

- i am concerned that the 57 cm hat will be too small as i have a size 58 hat from your Cambridge facility and it is a size 59. please confirm that a 22 1/2" head size will be accomodated comfortabley in a size 57.

- is mr. swales still available to shape the hat if requested? perhaps he remembers how it is suppose to look....tight front pinch, centre bash and camel humps on the top with a gentle rounded taper from the front to the back (side view).

i would greatly appreciate if you can answer these questions for me as your delivery time is looking quite attractive.

thanks for your time,

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:59 pm

geo....we can ask the vendor to put "gift only" and that usually kills the taxes. some vendors will do it, some won't.

geo · Post by **geo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:59 pm

You wrote spielburg?

Even when it's a gift, or the declared value is smaller, which happened to me, they sometimes open the package and assess a value to the product inside.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:09 pm

sorry....meant spielberg.....my bad.....and the first "size 58" shouldn't be there either.

your right geo. customs/duties are hit and miss sometimes.

geo · Post by **geo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:12 pm

I was sure you did it on purpose, because they wrote "spielburg" on the web site too.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:14 pm

i read that on the website so maybe it got stuck in my head....but mostly its because i'm typing too fast for my brain to keep up...and its monday. cheers!

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:52 am

Indiana_Tone wrote:Thanks for answering that, Todd. Was wondering if there was room for adjustments on those.

So........which one of you HJers is going to squashify and work on that one? (Not a vintage, but one of the newer ones.) Just to see what their actual tolerance and capabilities are?

I'm seriously contemplating the idea of getting 2 HJ's from Todd. One as the typical collector piece (just to have an HJ) and the other for some experimentation. I might sand it down to make it a bit thinner and then see if I can get it reblocked by someone with a good Raiders block and have the ribbon changed out to be Raiders accurate. Once I have a thinner HJ with the right block shape and ribbon, I will attempt to replicate the "Cairo" effect I achieved on my Fed Deluxe. Of course, experimenting on a $240 dollar hat might not be the best idea in the world. I think 3thoubucks had the right idea, working with regular Feds! But then again, I'm really curious to see how close someone can get to a Raiders hat with one of the new HJs.

-GCR

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:16 am

Here's my Herbie from Todd. It has a preliminary bash and unmodded brim - I'm going to do this one LC style.

There's a slight taper in both directions - the front to back taper basically disappears when center dent is put in.

If you look carefully, you can see the dreaded machine stitching just below the ribbon - this "perforation" is why the new HJ's are shunned by reblockers - not many want to risk tearing the crown off the brim when pushing the hat onto the block...

Note that the liner comes all white with "Herbert Johnson" text in gold - I added the maroon emblem myself. They're available from Herbert Johnson in Cambridge.

All in all, this will make a nice dress hat. Bashing this will take some time - felt's not very responsive, and I'm not going to risk premature tapering by steaming it.

moses · Post by **moses** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:24 am

Anyone is welcome to experiment distressing their HJs - but I might save you the bother by telling you that I ruined two HJs in a row: They don't take well to steam and moisture, and squashing through sitting seemed only to "break the seal" of the blockshape, allowing fast taper. My first HJ tapered in 2 weeks - my home attempts to reblock led to a shrunken crown very similar to the ebay HJ posted in another thread. I replaced it with another HJ, which again didn't hold up well. I think if you wear the hat in fine weather and don't continually mess with the shape, it might hold up reasonably well. Of course this is only my experience and you are welcome to try what you will.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:02 am

Moses, I can secound what you just stated. Almost word for word ( this happened to my HJ. It's just not worth it. It's not worth it if they dropped the price in half.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:20 pm

I wouldn't steam the crown - there's really no reason to, anyway, unless lightly for cleaning. The front pinch sets in by itself.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:33 pm

i steamed my HJ from todd out of the raiders pinch and wavey brim and into more of a TOD look and it took it quite well. the original taper did not get any worse and i am quite happy with the outcome except the sides are too short. i believe the TOD bridge hat probably didn't have shorter sides but i believe the TOD village hat did. if my herbie was a size smaller it would be quite close to the village hat.

GCR, i wouldn't recommend taking a sander to a an HJ as the felt is quite thin already....especially one that comes from todd as he mentioned to me that he orders his hats with less stiffener in them so they are already soft. if you are not careful, the sander may crumple/wrinkle the felt or even worse, wear right through it.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:49 pm

Indiana G wrote: GCR, i wouldn't recommend taking a sander to a an HJ as the felt is quite thin already....especially one that comes from todd as he mentioned to me that he orders his hats with less stiffener in them so they are already soft. if you are not careful, the sander may crumple/wrinkle the felt or even worse, wear right through it.

Thanks for the heads-up on that, G. I'm debating the idea of doing a Raiders style "project" with an HJ. I know I'll at least buy one, and after the input from other members here over the HJ's tendency to taper (2 weeks?!?!

that stinks Moses, I'm sorrry to hear that!), I may just stick with the single HJ and give it a loose LC bash and find it a nice spot for it on a shelf in my office. I really don't think I want to spend another $240 bucks on an HJ that might just end up getting sanded into oblivion, or shrunken into a dunce cap or brimless from an attempted reblock. But we'll see, if I get a nice Christmas bonus, that may sway my decision a little.

I could always just try and work with the stock HJ, without sanding and reblocking. I am curious to see how one of the newer HJ's looks with the Raiders turn and maybe a new ribbon with an accurate bow. I think all of the newer HJ's I've seen lately are un-turned, perhaps the turn will add a little "Raidersness" to it?

BTW, SJ, that's a nice looking HJ you got there! Did the HJ come in that box, or was that a seperate purchase?

-GCR

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:53 pm

GCR wrote:BTW, SJ, that's a nice looking HJ you got there! Did the HJ come in that box, or was that a seperate purchase?

Cheers, GCR! Nope, that box used to hold a Peters Bros. fedora.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:06 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:
GCR wrote:BTW, SJ, that's a nice looking HJ you got there! Did the HJ come in that box, or was that a seperate purchase?
Cheers, GCR! Nope, that box used to hold a Peters Bros. fedora.

Many thanks, SJ!

This, of course, prompts another question: What sort of box did the HJ from Todd's come in?

-GCR

moses · Post by **moses** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:26 pm

Here's my last HJ. Notice the stiches on the brim - it ripped off and I patched it up before putting it in my kids's dressing up box.

I wore this hat for a mere few weeks before it looked like this.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:11 pm

GCR,

if i recall, i believe todd's hat came in a cardboard box with the foam shipping peanuts....or was it just crumpled up shipping paper? it was very well packed from what i remember and i do not recall having to reshape it from any delivery mishaps.

Tone,

thats interesting and very much plausable...moreso than $3thou theories of how they achieved our beloved hat....though i find $3thou's theories and methods extremely interesting and his outcome has resulted in one fine hat.

i am embarking on an HJ project myself. i will post a thread when the dust settles.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:25 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote:From the land of "What if": (And it possibly supports some other thoeries here.)

Let's say the HJ, even back then, had the same machine stitching on the brim. Or at least the same craftsmanship issues.

1) During the course of distressing and filming, the brim tore (or began to tear) off.
2) They did not have a back up hat to use at the time on location (at some point during shooting on location.)
3) They had to reattach the brim onto the crown somehow (Pleat stitch may be a remnant stitch or point of completion).
4) The extra room under the ribbon is actually the entire section of the brim folded up under to reattach it. (Extra bulge under the crown and also explains why 3thou might have been coming up with an ironed down crown, or at least a point in the crown that is abnormally shorter than the hat comes with - theory.)

It's not so bizarre to think the hat gave 'em all kinds of problems back then. Even to the point of having to reattach the brim entirely.

Not to refute your theory, as I'm all for a good theory, but I think (and I could be wrong, someone like Fedora would know better) the issue with the current HJ's (and perhaps even the HJ's from the ToD and LC era) is the machine stitching at the brim break makes it very difficult to reblock the hat without the brim tearing. From what I understand, older HJ's (like the Raiders era hats and earlier) did NOT use the same kind of stitching, but were instead hand-sewn in a manner that guarded against the brim-ripping phenomenon.

Plus, in certain scenes of Raiders (mainly Cairo) the brim break (where a rip more than likely would have occured) seems to be slightly visible and no damage or repair stitching can be seen. Again, I could be wrong about the older "vintage" HJ's. They may have had this issue also, someone who has one or has handled one will have to comment on that.

Now, I WILL submit a theory of my own here, based somewhat on Tone's theory, at least in terms of the durability of the HJ hats. What if the hats made for the 2 sequels (or 1 prequel and 1 sequel, before anyone chimes in with "ToD wasn't a sequel!"

) are similar in construction and materials to the hats HJ sells today? We already have more than a few posts regarding the taper problems and other quality issues with the current crop of HJs. I firmly believe there were more differences between the Raiders hat and the other film hats besides just the block shape and the turn, such as felt thickness and quality. What if these changes to the HJ resulted in similar problems with the film hats in ToD and LC. That might explain why the hats in those films look nothing like the Raiders hat, in addition to looking VERY different from scene to scene. If these hats had problems with shrinking or brims ripping or whatever in such a short time span (2 weeks for Moses), how long would an HJ last after being "distressed" by the costume or prop people and then worn by Ford for scenes in the hot Sri Lankan or Spanish sun? A week, maybe? Less?

It always seemed to me that the (brown) Raiders hat worn by Ford could have been the same hat throughout the film, with one or two very brief exceptions. This could be a testament to the quality of the Raiders era HJ's, as opposed to the later film (and retail) versions...

-GCR

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:14 pm

Indiana_Tone wrote: It could be that the HJ actually will make a fine Cairo as it comes now. (YES, I said it. With the block it comes with now and without steam!)

The problem is that it's a fragile trick to soften it up and get all those details out of it without "breaking it" so to speak. The original HJ back then may have "broke" as well.

You're right about that Tone. We may never know, until someone tries to make a nice Cairo hat out of a current HJ AND out of a vintage HJ. I'm still considering giving a current HJ the "Cairo" treatment, and even if I don't someone else may want to step up and take on that project someday. But convincing some of the few lucky people who own one of the vintage HJ's to squash it, beat it and cover it with sand might be a bit hard to do. I know, if I had a vintage HJ, NO ONE could convince me to give it a good dose of "Cairo", that thing would stay MINT. So I suppose we may never know.

As much as we'd like to think the HJ was a fine, super indestructable fed that held up to Indy's adventures, it could very well have had these same characteristics and problems even back then. And yes, even with a different or better felt back in the day.

I know even the vintage HJ's aren't going to be indestructable, and I think even the Raiders hat had some obvious shrinkage happening in the Cairo scenes that caused some of the bulging and mushrooming. But I think that whatever type of felt they used in Raiders stood up better to the distressing the hat received, both artificial by the costume folks and natural that occured on location. That might be the key to the good continuity in the Raiders hat, the fact that it might have actually been the same hat throughout most of the film.

After all the success of Raiders, when ToD rolled around, perhaps HJ made certain changes to the hat that allowed for quicker production, in order to meet the needs of the costume people. Perhaps these changes included the machine stitching, or different felt...who knows?

By the way, this somehow gives the impression that the HJs from Todd's are garbage and that's not the picture I'm trying to paint. Like I said I think Todd's HJs look pretty good and that picture of Scandinavia's proves it.

No, I don't have an HJ so it's all a far-fetched theory in itself, but for someone looking to recostruct the ideal Cairo, Raiders, Indy, hat at an exact moment in time, that scenario isn't out of the realm of possibility.

I agree on both counts! I think the HJs Todd is offering are some of the best looking hats I've seen with the HJ name in a while. I also commend Todd for his efforts to provide folks an HJ hat for less than it would cost to order it straight from the source (in most cases). An HJ hat is still on my list of "must have" gear items, for sure. I just can't decide if it will be one or two! The more I think about it, the more I want to give the "Cairo HJ" project a shot.

-GCR

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:30 pm

i say go for it buddy! when you get your HJ, you will notice right away how floppy and moldable the felt is. with todd's lack of factory stiffener, it gets soft really fast, but when i steamed her up, she got pretty stiff again because the stiffner that was in it originally was reactivated and redistributed.

i would order the one hat IMHO and bash it like the idol/grab or ravenbar scene. be sure she fits right or else you'll have my problem. let time take you to the SOC bash which it will eventually when we keep grabbing/poking/prodding it just on a day to day basis. you will find that she will form naturally to an SOC. i would be very careful if you do decide to artificially distress it as like fedora said, its not the same felt as back then and creases and wrinkles that you created may be hard to take out.....but just a little assurance for you...my raiders pinch that was constantly in my hat and pinched for more than 2 or 3 months came out with the steam treatment.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:45 pm

Indiana G wrote:i say go for it buddy! when you get your HJ, you will notice right away how floppy and moldable the felt is. with todd's lack of factory stiffener, it gets soft really fast, but when i steamed her up, she got pretty stiff again because the stiffner that was in it originally was reactivated and redistributed.

i would order the one hat IMHO and bash it like the idol/grab or ravenbar scene. be sure she fits right or else you'll have my problem. let time take you to the SOC bash which it will eventually when we keep grabbing/poking/prodding it just on a day to day basis. you will find that she will form naturally to an SOC. i would be very careful if you do decide to artificially distress it as like fedora said, its not the same felt as back then and creases and wrinkles that you created may be hard to take out.....but just a little assurance for you...my raiders pinch that was constantly in my hat and pinched for more than 2 or 3 months came out with the steam treatment.

Thanks G, that's good to know. I'm always glad to hear about other gearhead's experiences with their gear. If I do attempt the "Cairo HJ" project, it will have to be with a second HJ hat. My original reason for getting an HJ wasn't just to have an actual HJ, but also to have a good LC hat. All the Indy fedoras I've purchased over the years have been made into Raiders hats. In some cases, this was without success (Dorfman & Stetson). But I really do like the look of the other Indy hats as well, especially the more relaxed pinch that can be seen in certain parts of LC. The current HJs seem like a near perfect match for LC, in terms of color and shape and bow configuration, etc. So if I got an HJ, it would HAVE TO BE for a nice LC style hat, just to keep on a shelf and stare at and say to myself and others "well, it's an HJ, that's what Ford wore". If I were to attempt my little experiment, I'd need another HJ. If I ruined the one and only HJ I owned, "I'll never forgive myself".

-GCR

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:20 pm

you got to wear it GCR...thats part of the fun. i think the slickest hat in LC was the motorcycle chase hat....i do not know if this is the same as the hats earlier on in the movie (venice pier) but it definitely looks different than the tank chase hat and the petra hat.

i also think that you should just get an open crown one from todd. though he does an excellent job in bashing the hat, i think its much more fun to do it yourself...and its quite easy. that way, its like your own personal signature on the hat and then that hat can never look wrong to you.

cheers and i hope you find your HJ!

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:53 pm

Indiana G wrote:you got to wear it GCR...thats part of the fun. i think the slickest hat in LC was the motorcycle chase hat....i do not know if this is the same as the hats earlier on in the movie (venice pier) but it definitely looks different than the tank chase hat and the petra hat.

i also think that you should just get an open crown one from todd. though he does an excellent job in bashing the hat, i think its much more fun to do it yourself...and its quite easy. that way, its like your own personal signature on the hat and then that hat can never look wrong to you.

cheers and i hope you find your HJ!

If I get an HJ, I'll definitely wear it, but not very often at all. Nice, clear days with no chance of rain or snow only. I wear my Akubra almost all the time, and I'll wear my Beaver AB (once I get it), just as often. I'm used to not even thinking about what the weather is like when I go to put my hat on so I probably won't be reaching for the HJ much at all. If I get more than one HJ, I'll be more likely to wear at least one of them from time to time, but given the rep these hats have for tapering under less than ideal conditions, I'll have to be VERY careful.

No matter how many hats I get from Todd, they will all be open crown. I do prefer bashing the hat myself, like I did with my Akubra and my Indiana Millers before that. One of my ABs (the "bargain" rabbit) is set to be open crown as well, though I'm not sure how I'll bash that one, yet. I only opted for pre-bashed instead of open crown on my other two ABs, becuase I think Fedora has the Raiders bash down to a science in relation to the currently accepted specs, his block shape and the "turn" and all that, so I trust him to put everything together just right. But usually I'm an open crown guy. I'm really leaning toward attempting the "Cairo HJ" project. I think it's worth a shot. Considering how much I have spent on other Indy hats that didn't live up to expectations (most of which I don't even own anymore), what's another $240 bucks? If I ruin the hat and it turns into a tapered mess, I can always sell it on ebay! (Kidding, kidding)

-GCR

Mississippi · Post by **Mississippi** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:24 pm

You would be in luck if you did. I'm currently on the market for a new felt dunce cap. My last one was really too nice for daily wear.

DeWayne · Post by **DeWayne** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:25 pm

Just for reference, here's a couple old, bad pics of my HJ. I got it in June '99 and it was prepped by Swales. I don't know if it was before the rush or what, but he was very pleasant with me on the phone and I had the hat in about a week and a half.

Except for a few occasions, it has spent most of it's time in the box.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:56 pm

sorry dewayne, you can disregard my request for pics on that other thread. nice lid.

i see mr. swales put a teardrop crown in instead of a center bash. this is why she has the level silouette instead of the rounded look on the side view. also, the rear brim has been flanged up pretty high which continues on all the way around the rear of the hat from what i can see. usually the hat goes pretty flat at the rear (or thats what i notice on the screen).

how is the felt on her? todd orders less stiffener in his but i am curious to see how it comes standard from england.

i put my oversized HJ in regular rotation and i just can't get over how soft and comfy she is. i am expecting to get one straight out of the SAB shop with an open crown pretty soon, with the correct head size. i am interested to see the differences with that and what todd offers.

cheers

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:13 pm

Indiana G wrote:i am expecting to get one straight out of the SAB shop with an open crown pretty soon, with the correct head size. i am interested to see the differences with that and what todd offers.

cheers

I'd be interested in the differences as well. The only visible difference I can see (aside from the bash style, but since you're getting open crown I guess that doesn't matter) is the styling of the bow on the ribbon. I have to say, while neither bow is screen accurate for Raiders, I actually think the SAB bow is closer than the hats Todd has. The bows on Todd's hats seem better suited to ToD and LC. Anyway, I'm sure there are more differences, but until you have your SAB HJ and post your review, it's all speculation.

-GCR

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:53 pm

i will make a full report. i'm expecting it early next week.

cheers.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:12 pm

Love this stuff!!! I have seen scores of HJs from the 1990's, and I think around 7 or 8 that were made before that, a few being really old ones. These are my observations. The hats made in the 1990's were thicker, stiffer felt as received but would soften up with wear. The stitches at the brim were there in the 1990 hats but the felt was more durable and would not tear at the brim break under reblock conditions. Now, on the HJs I have seen that were made back when HJ made fine hats, the sweats were handstitched in, at the same part of the crown that me and Marc use. Well above the break and less numerous, way less numerous.

The felt used in the 90's and the felt used today is not of the same quality as what they used to use. Same with most other factory hats. Fedora

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:31 pm

Fedora wrote:Love this stuff!!! I have seen scores of HJs from the 1990's, and I think around 7 or 8 that were made before that, a few being really old ones. These are my observations. The hats made in the 1990's were thicker, stiffer felt as received but would soften up with wear. The stitches at the brim were there in the 1990 hats but the felt was more durable and would not tear at the brim break under reblock conditions. Now, on the HJs I have seen that were made back when HJ made fine hats, the sweats were handstitched in, at the same part of the crown that me and Marc use. Well above the break and less numerous, way less numerous.

The felt used in the 90's and the felt used today is not of the same quality as what they used to use. Same with most other factory hats. Fedora

Fedora, would you say that the HJ felt from the 90's is the same (or similar) to the type of HJ felt used during the ToD / LC era? If so, how does that felt compare with the current offerings from Todd's? Is it the same? Do these brim-break stitching problems only occur with the newer HJ's? I am very curious about this, as I plan to get an HJ and I would like to have it reblocked into a more Raiders accurate shape if I can, perhaps by JP Design.

Also, if I may ask, how does one manage to get their hands on one of those nifty "vintage" HJ's from the late 70's? Ebay, perhaps?

-GCR

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:07 pm

Fedora, would you say that the HJ felt from the 90's is the same (or similar) to the type of HJ felt used during the ToD / LC era? If so, how does that felt compare with the current offerings from Todd's? Is it the same? Do these brim-break stitching problems only occur with the newer HJ's? I am very curious about this, as I plan to get an HJ and I would like to have it reblocked into a more Raiders accurate shape if I can, perhaps by JP Design.

Also, if I may ask, how does one manage to get their hands on one of those nifty "vintage" HJ's from the late 70's? Ebay, perhaps?

Yes, all of that felt that I saw was very LCish. I think it may have been the same felt. I saw some color variations in this felt, but that is normal with hats, at least hats that do not use powder in the finishing. The felt on those 90ish HJs were more like the Federation felt, to me. The felt that was used on Todd's hats is a truer dress felt, but pretty unstable, and that isn't unusual either. This sort of felt is the rule rather than the exception nowadays. But, with that said, it looks very nice. I like the softness of it.

The older HJs were hand stitched, above the brim break. The 1990 HJs had the brim break stitches, but the felt was substantial enough not to tear at this perforated line. The new felt used by HJ is so weak it will tear easily at this stitch line if you are not extremely careful during a reblock. Hopefully JP keeps up with this stuff so he will not have to replace one like I had to do.

You can find a few HJs on ebay from time to time. I have bought a couple there, and if you are lucky, the seller will have one that he hasn't listed yet and you can get it privately. That is how I got 2 of mine in the past. Along with numerous hat tools. I picked up a vintage rounding jack this way, and paid 20 bucks for it. A new one from JW is 750 bucks. Quite a savings.

If anyone ever gets a vintage HJ you will be shocked at the difference in quality. At one time, HJ indeed sold fine hats, with many hand operations in the construction. But, then so did Stetson. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:38 am

...and Stetson still does:

http://cgi.ebay.com/STETSON-DIAMANTE-10 ... dZViewItem

...with 5 grand retail price! Except for the gold, the diamonds and the leather suitcase, I'd be more than happy to offer you the same quality for 30% less!!!

That's right folks! Only 3,500 bucks for a top of the line fur felt hat! Contact either Steve or me for further details

Here's a vintage HJ I was lucky to get for a bargain:

COULD be THE block, but I'll have to check once it arrives.

Same liner as in the walk through vid. White sides, stained plastic cap (the liner underneath IS white).

Mint condition sweatband.

I'm not a particular HJ fan, yet I do have a weak spot in my heart for the vintage HJs. They're GREAT for analyses on how HJ made their hats once and Steve and I both have the desire, not only to make our hats LOOK screen accurate, but also to copy their techniques used (if desirable

).

Regards,

Marc