hello new j strain arrived today, is this normal?

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:13 pm

hello,
after lurking about here for a few weeks doing some research i purchased a j strain from WSP. It arrived today. is the condition that this whip arrived in normal? you can see pictures here
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/neosporing
It just seems a bit used. I don't know, perhaps this is normal and nothing to get all twisted up about. I ask the more experienced members here, how does this whip look to you?

also i was suprised to see how small it is. as you can see on the pictures it is less than 1 inch at its thickest. (each grid measures 1x1 inch)

how much thicker are the 8ft/ 10ft/ 12fts?

Thanks!

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:39 pm

where did you order it from? That does not look like a strain quality whip
At all... There are never gaps like that in his plating that i know of.
Where did you buy it from?
Mola

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:39 pm

Those gaps definitely are not typical of Joe's work. Did you specify that you wanted one by Joe Strain when you ordered? WSP has several whipmakers making the Indy whips, and if you didn't specify Joe Strain it could have been made by anyone. That aside, I would return that whip for an exchange or a refund either way.

Jim

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:44 pm

i did specify several times that i wanted a joeseph strain whip both in email and over the phone when i ordered it from Western Stage Props. The salesman assured me that his whips were made by joeseph strain.

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 3:44 pm

Yea,
Jim i thought the same thing. I wonder who made that? that is not very great looking and i dont know why WSP would sell a whip like that.
Strains whips are very tightly plaited which immediatly says: that does not
look like it is at all cause of its loose plaiting. Sorry about all this,
mola

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:00 pm

i don't want to offend the guy over at WSP. He told me it was a joe strain, and if i try to return/ exchange it because ... what...? Does anyone have any advice on going about this in a diplomatic fashion...

i was thinking of asking him to exchange it for an 8ft but then how do i go about in saying, 'with tighter plaiting' should i send him a photo? is that rude?

thanks again for all your opinions.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:40 pm

Based on the looks of the fall, which looks a bit ratty, I'd say it's been used, same with the fuzziness on some of the strands. Anyone who's ever cracked a whip knows they dry out and look like that after use. The other thing to look at is the popper, which doesn't look that old. A little gapping is normal when dropping strands, but not in multiple places as your pictures indicate.

Truthfully, I'd send it back to WSP, and tell them it wasn't what you thought it was. Then, I'd go directly through Joe Strain. www.northernwhipco.com for a couple of reasons:

You'll know for sure that Joe made it.

All of the money you spend on it goes directly to Joe, instead of paying for a middle man.

Anyone making whips for sale by someone else can tell you that they are doing the same work, just for less money, because they have to pay for a middle man. The other side of that is they are able to stay busy making whips, when direct orders would be slow. There ought to be a whipmakers union, as part of the American Whipmakers Association.

Let's all band together!!!

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:40 pm

Hmmm.... regardless you should return it for the reasons given. Those reason are:
- wear and tear
- gaps in the plaiting

I have never seen Joe do that before. It does look like his Turkshead, but knowing Joe he would never release a whip like that for sale. Never... and WSP either needs to do an exchange or cut you a deal for less.

-Sergei

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:45 pm

I agree with Sergei. I bought both of my Strains right from Joe and they are perfect and tight as a drum. And don't be afraid of insulting WSP or any other company. Remember, it is YOUR money and you deserve what you paid for. I'd use Sergei's advice here and contact Joe as well.

Regards
JJ

Mola Ram · Post by **Mola Ram** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:47 pm

There ought to be a whipmakers union, as part of the American Whipmakers Association.

Let's all band together!!!

Theres a American Whipmakers Association? or are you refering to the people who belong to the APWA and live in the states?
mola

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:50 pm

Hi Bodhi.

I have several Joe Strain whips including two same kind 6 footers that yours is.

In that first picture looks like your whip is exactly same kind that I have.
From pictures 2 and 3 I get strong feeling that someone have took some test cracks with your whip...
However, sometimes fall may be that fluffy when its new.
I have get falls as spare parts from the Whip Man and thay have surely been new but fluffy. Greasing helps here.

But that colour on end of the thong and keeper makes it look like it has been used somewhere. (pictures 3 and 8 )
My whips didnt have that kind of change of the colour when I got them...
They were natural colour all the way.
This of course MAY be cause of stockpiling if there has been many different coloured whips together touching each other and so...

About the gaps...well, my whips have one or two here and there if you look very closely but not that clear area as your picture 5 shows...

In picture 3 thong seems to be very loose if made by Joe!
Is it loose or do it just look that way!?
After 3 years of use my whips still are very tight!

Handle and Turkshead are typical Joe and all 8-12 ft. whips are the same size with Indy whips.

Somehow, if comparing to my own whips,
this whip seems like made with big hurry...

Bernardodc · Post by **Bernardodc** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:00 pm

Hi,
Follow this link to see some pics of a Joe Strain bullwhip:

http://www.adventurersplace.com/IJPages/whip.htm

Hope that helps,

Regards,

Bernardo

Indiana Blizzard · Post by **Indiana Blizzard** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:52 pm

I can only compare it to my Stenhouse 10 footer, but I mine looked like that when I got it I would have been a very sad Jones boy.

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:38 pm

Hey gang,

I just got off the phone with Joe Strain.

After about half an hour of examining all the photos, he was able to identify about 6 or 7 reasons why
this is NOT one of his whips.

Not being a whip maker, I won't try to recount them all, but Joe will try to post on this topic as soon as he can.

As to your dilemma, again, follow Sergei's advice and then give Joe a call.

Peace to all,

Ken / JJ

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:13 pm

JerseyJones wrote:Hey gang,

I just got off the phone with Joe Strain.

After about half an hour of examining all the photos, he was able to identify about 6 or 7 reasons why
this is NOT one of his whips.

Not being a whip maker, I won't try to recount them all, but Joe will try to post on this topic as soon as he can.

As to your dilemma, again, follow Sergei's advice and then give Joe a call.

Peace to all,

Ken / JJ

Good work there Ken. I really doubted that the whip was one of Joe Strain's. While the knob looked pretty good, the way the strands were cut and the plaiting just didn't look like his work. Especially, I couldn't imagine Joe sending a whip to anyone with all of those blemishes on it.

Jim

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:46 pm

well, WSP says if i'm not happy with the whip i can exchange it or get a credit. So it doesn't sound like he'll give me a refund. But actually i actually failed to ask if i could get a refund. If i could get a refund, i'd definately order directly through the whipmaker. I went through WSP because I didn't see indy styled whips on joseph strains website. I thought i had read on a post somewhere on this board that WSP was the outlet through which joeseph strain sold his indy whips...(but i should've asked the man himself).

zohar · Post by **zohar** » Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:06 pm

I'm sorry that you had this happen. Joseph will make you an Indy whip if you ask specifically for it. If I am not mistaken, the only real difference between one of his Lone Star whips and the Indy-style whip is the type of heel knot on it. When I got my new Strain, I had him make me one with a Morgan-style heel knot in the Whiskey color, and he said he would be happy to do it that way for me.

I hope you end up getting what you want.

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:31 am

Hi, sounds like you’ve already gotten some great advice from members here, and have already gotten a hold of WSP to have them resolve the problem, so that’s good. I’ll tell ya, if I paid for and received that a whip like that from WSP or from any other whip maker for that matter, I would have to sent it back. I don’t like those gaps or the overall roughness and rattyness of it, I am really surprised they sent you that whip. While I would imagine WSP’s will do there best to correct the problem, Go though Joe. Just tell him what your looking for, you’ll probably be able gets one made with the more “Indyish” type turkshead knot if you ask.

Dan

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:41 am

bodhidiver wrote:well, WSP says if i'm not happy with the whip i can exchange it or get a credit. So it doesn't sound like he'll give me a refund.

That's not much satisfaction if you ask me. What if you just want your money back and have lost trust in the seller? It's like I'd take my money elsewhere if I want to. If you put it on a credit card, I think you have some rights.

They should give you your money back if you demand it. Don't let them make you think you cannot. Return the whip for a refund and go on. Then call Joe.

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:58 am

Robert Duke wrote:
bodhidiver wrote:well, WSP says if i'm not happy with the whip i can exchange it or get a credit. So it doesn't sound like he'll give me a refund.
That's not much satisfaction if you ask me. What if you just want your money back and have lost trust in the seller? It's like I'd take my money elsewhere if I want to. If you put it on a credit card, I think you have some rights.

They should give you your money back if you demand it. Don't let them make you think you cannot. Return the whip for a refund and go on. Then call Joe.

I guess it depends on the state. Now I'm no attorney, and maybe one of our local lawyers(Jerseyjones!) can help here. But the way I understand it in New Jersey from being in retail, is that a purchase is a contract, and the seller is under no obligation to refund money once the purchase is complete. Now I'm not saying this is a good policy to have, but it's the way a lot of retailers do business, and I've been screwed this way myself in the past.

Jim

IndianaGuybrush · Post by **IndianaGuybrush** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:32 am

Usually if you make it an issue and go high enough up the chain of command you can get your money back. Now, I'm not a person who likes to kick up a fuss, but if demanding to speak to a manager, and if that doesn't work an owner, is going to get back money that I spent on a shoddy product then that's what I'm going to do. From what I understand there isn't usually a quality control problem from WSP, but there is no telling if your whip is going to be the first in a string of bad whips... Who knows. What it boils down to is what you feel comfortable with. If you don't feel comfortbale ordering through them again demand your money back, it's your right as a consumer. If you get someone hemming and hawing on the phone about refunding money not being store policy ask to speak to their supervisor. You go high up enough and you'll get it back.

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 12:34 pm

hello again,

thanks again for all of the helpful responses. I can't help but wonder if the gaps in the plaiting are a significant problem. Is it possible that gaps like this can occur from the leather drying out from sitting on a display shelf for a period of time? If this is the case could some leather conditioner solve the problem? If not, is it a problem at all? I'm not an expert but compared to my old 6 plait, the whip is tightly woven.

Aside from the slight tendency to want to bend in one direction just off the handle (i'm assuming from being stored in a tightly wound configuration), the whip is quite stiff overall. Is the off-handle 'kink' going to even out, or could this develop into a more serious problem?

I guess what i'm asking is would any whip stand up to the scrutiny of the macro lens on a digital camera?

I haven't seen any macro pictures of David Morgan's whips but it seems that he has quite a few gaps in his whips.

I'm also wondering if this is a joeseph strain whip, but one that is just slightly used and not quite new. I'll add a couple of more pictures to illustrate what i'm talking about.
http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/neosporing

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:27 pm

Gaps in the plaiting are from plaiting itself, not drying out. And, leather conditioner won't cause the leather to swell, if that's what you're thinking. The natural curve is supposed to be there, and shouldn't ever develop into a problem.

Send it back and ask them to put themselves in your shoes. It may have been an honest mistake on their part shipping you a non-Joe Strain whip.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:32 pm

Well Joe Strain, just joined Club Obi Wan! He will be responding to this thread soon. We just chatted....

-Sergei

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:46 pm

You already confirmed it’s not a Strain. End of discussion, send it back. I would tell they “I paid for a Strain and want my money back”. It’s as simple as that.

Good Luck
Bill Walton

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:25 pm

I have been long time customer with WSP and they have ALWAYS been very polite and good service for me!
I am certain they will treat you same way Bodhi.
Why in earth they wouldnt!??

We are only humans.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:49 pm

Whiper Jones wrote:I have been long time customer with WSP and they have ALWAYS been very polite and good service for me!
I am certain they will treat you same way Bodhi.
Why in earth they wouldnt!??

We are only humans.

I agree with Whiper Jones, WSP has always been a straight up company. This is the first issue I heard of anyone experiencing with these guys. They are a good crew.

-Sergei

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:56 pm

Like Paul_S said (Who makes some very fine looking whips himself) those type of gaps and irregularities are caused from poor plating, not from drying out. While some minor ones might be acceptable, to me the ones I am seeing in those pictures are not. Also the “kinks” you’re describing in the thong are not a good thing. In my opinion the over all look of quality on that whip is not worth the price you paid. Have I seen worse, yes, but thats not what I have come to expect form WSP.

If the sales people are giving you the run around, ask to talk to the Mark Allen. Tell him the situation. They are a pretty reputable company with a good track record; I can’t see them not wanting to make things right and clear this up as soon as possible.

Mistakes happen even under the best circumstances, but the bottom line is your not satisfied with the product they provided. Especially since you clearly requested one of the bullwhips made by Joe Strain, and he can verify that its not one of his. You should be able to receive a refund, unless it is clearly stated in their policy that there are no refunds on returned merchandise. You might have to pay a 25% restocking fee if they don’t consider it defective, unfortunately a lot of companies will get you with that. All the best!

Dan

mechinyun · Post by **mechinyun** » Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:39 pm

If i were in your situation, i would return it, ask for an exchange or a refund. Period.

If there is any kind of question to its condition, you should return it. If not the question (Did i get a used/defective whip?) will nibble at you for a long time.

Nip it in the bud now. Dont take no for an answer, its your money, you paid for a bran spanking new, as close to perfect whip as they come.

Life is to short to settle.

JStrain · Post by **JStrain** » Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:43 pm

Hi All,
I'm usually very busy and it is hard to find time for this sort of thing. That being said, I'm posting this because it concerns something that was represented as my work.

I looked at all the pics as JerseyJones said and I will admit that until I looked at all the pics I would have sworn it was one of mine. The handle looks like my work. It's a very good copy. But only the handle is a good copy. After looking at all the pics and other factors, here is why it is not one of my whips.
1. Gaps in plaitting....this would never leave my shop!
2. Shape and weight of the thong. The thong is lighter than those I make and the taper is bad. The last couple of feet taper very little and will make for a whip that "floats."
3. Laces are cut too narrow. After you've cut a few hundred whips out you realize that there is some leeway in the width of the strands. Even if the strands are cut too narrow they can be pushed up to close gaps in plaitting, called packing, but will most likely open up the more the whip is used. So even if the strands are cut too narrow, there is no reason for gaps on a new whip. Narrow strands are still not good.
4. 8 plait point. I finish my 12 plait whips with a 6 plait point because the strands can be cut wider and will take more abuse.
5. Although the fall hitch is similar to mine, that is not my work and the fall would not have been replaced yet on a new whip.
6. I make VERY few short whips for WSP. I've sent them maybe two or three in the last few months and that is not one of them.
7. I shellac my whips unless someone specifically requests otherwise. I don't see a finish on this whip.

I think the rest has been said by others.

It's a pleasure to join your group.

Joe

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:40 am

Joe,

Let me be the first to welcome you aboard.

Thanks for detailing the different aspects of your craftsmanship. I learned much by reading you post. That combined with cracking a few whips of yours, I appreciate your work even more.

Thanks for sharing,
Pyroxene.

Post by **Ken** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:22 am

I am also fortunate enough to own a genuine JS whip:

http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5524

All I can say is thank you. Its incredible. and thanks for taking the time to post here!

Ken

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:01 am

Thanks Joe. I think that finally settles it. I realize you are busy and have very little time to be messing with forum's, but your post was highly appreciated.

For those of you that don't know Joe Strain, he is the master of whipmaking that most aspire to be at his level. His bio that I put together at the Indygear site is here:
http://www.indygear.com/gear/whip_vendors.shtml

Take care...
-Sergei

ecwhips · Post by **ecwhips** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:11 pm

Sergei wrote:Thanks Joe. I think that finally settles it. I realize you are busy and have very little time to be messing with forum's, but your post was highly appreciated.

For those of you that don't know Joe Strain, he is the master of whipmaking that most aspire to be at his level. His bio that I put together at the Indygear site is here:
http://www.indygear.com/gear/whip_vendors.shtml

Take care...
-Sergei

Yes, I only wish to be that good at this point! Welome aboard, Joe.

Regards,
Jim

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 5:11 pm

hello all,
first i'd just want to thank everyone for the responses and encouragement. As a newcomer into a community, i have to say i've never in my life experienced a warmer welcome and generosity from a group of people that i've never met.

I am especially honored and privileged to have heard from both Joseph Strain and Mark Allen within a 12 hour with regards to this now infamous whip.

I just got off the phone with Mark Allen. We spoke about the whip and this messageboard thread a bit. I told him how i first learned of WSP was through this board and that my decision to purchase a joe strain through WSP was based on the positive experiences customers have had doing the same.
We then talked in length about how special Joe Strain Whips are and the qualities that makes his whip stand out from others.
One thing for sure, Mr. Allen has a passion for whips and has great respect for the works of art created by the all of the master craftsman he doing in business with.
Mr. Allen was dismayed that a whip looking like that even made it out the doors of WSP becasue that is not how WSP does business. He assured me that the whip sent out to me was an accident and asked me to send it back ASAP so he can 'make it right' and send me a real J Strain. I thanked him but nervously told him that i 'kind of wanted a full refund' in an effort to go directly through Mr. Strain. He reassured me again that what happened never happens and then said he'll talk to Joe Strain himself and have him make a 'special' whip just for me.
Who am i to look a gift horse in the mouth? So I told him that it sounds great except that this time, I would like an 8 foot.

I just can't thank everyone enough for helping me with this situation.
sincerely

dave h

Whiper Jones · Post by **Whiper Jones** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:21 am

As I said WSP stands behind its word...

Happy for you Bodhidiver.

JerseyJones · Post by **JerseyJones** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:09 am

That sounds like the WSP/ Mark Allen we all know !

In the words of Sallah:

"SEE ! I told you it would be alright !"

Ken

bodhidiver · Post by **bodhidiver** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 12:33 pm

Thanks again.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:14 pm

Well I am not surprised over what Mark did. He is dedicated in providing good service to his customers. His business model relies on the "instant gratification" and great products. I know that he has "fired" whipmakers from his catalog due to repeated returns back to WSP. Everything in his stable of products is high quality. I'm sure whoever made this mistake will get an earful from Mark. He is always nice to the customer, but behind the scenes he is tough and demanding from his employees and vendors.

I am glad everything worked out.

-Sergei

whipman · Post by **whipman** » Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 pm

I own 95 whip from WSP and they are the best people to deal with and I myself love the great service and there expert knowlege. I now only buy for WSP and soon I will own over a 100 whips.

Whipman