HJ Location and dates!!!!!!!!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:15 pm

A big thanks to Mr. Khan who made the call to HJ to glean this great info. Now, Dave, you can date those hats a bit better, and so can I!

38 New Bond Street From circa 1899 - circa 1971

13 Old Burlington Street From 1971

30 New Bond Street - very approximately 1985-1996

10 Old Bond Street - From 1996 when the company was purchased by Swaine Adeney Brigg

54 St James Street - From circa 1998- present

Ok, but there is a big variable here. HJ may have changed locations, but that does not mean the new address would appear on the early hats sold from this location, right away. We found this fact out years ago when Mr. Swales was still at the store. So, you could have a hat that was from the shop on 30 New Bond St. yet, it has the older address on the sweat. Once their stock sold out, they would probably than get their new hats in with the new address.

It appears that the Raiders fedora came from the 13 Old Burlington Street. This would be imprinted on its sweatbands.

Also, most of my vintage HJs actually were made before 1971! Most had the 38 New Bond address on the sweats. But I think the vintage HJ LLS copied, was from the Raiders era address. Fedora

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:13 pm

Thanks for posting this Steve. This definately helps. And puts my HJ at least at '71. I'm going to try and research things like sweat/reed stitching, crest logos, sweat color, and the sweat bow to see if we can gain even more knowledge on dating HJs.

Dave

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:50 pm

Thanks for the great info, Steve! This certainly explains a lot. My circa 1999 Swales HJ Poet has the 10 Old Bond Street address on the sweatband, but the oval crest on the liner says 54 St. James Street. Pretty cool!

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:16 am

This deserves being stickied.

Regards! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:09 pm

Fedora wrote: 30 New Bond Street - very approximately 1985-1996

For some reason I've got this little note saved in my archives. No idea of its source but I see yours is also approximated...

30 New Bond Street date unsure but generally between 1990/1995

Don't ask me where I've got this info because I don't remember

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 pm

Don't ask me where I've got this info because I don't remember

My info came from HJ, via a guy over there, one of my customers. He called the person at HJ who he buys replacement liners and such from. Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:46 pm

Sounds pretty reliable then

Great info by the way, it was about time someone posted a detailed list and was made "sticky"

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:34 pm

Very interesting stuff. And there were different logos at individual locations too. In this pic, the two HJs with white and dark oval logos were from 30 New Bond St. and the one with the pentagon logo was from 13 Old Burlington Street.
http://s701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16 ... g&newest=1

RNomura · Post by **RNomura** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:28 pm

My 1988 Poet was purchased in July and has the 13 Old Burlington address inside the hat, and on the shipping box and invoice.

~Ron

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:17 am

Ron -

You still have the box?! I love it. Talked to Wood - we might see Phantom when it shows up here in Sep./ Oct.

IndianaSean · Post by **IndianaSean** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:09 am

I'm getting a very "James Bond" feeling out of this.

Sean

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:41 am

Morning Gents,

I normally hang about at the Real Life Archaeology section, but don't half enjoy reading through the posts here.

Steve, I could not have got anywhere in getting the dates without you lettiing me know the address details. On the dates, Nicky said the only approx date was the '85 one, the rest she was positive on. It would seem that the shift to 30 would have been closer to Erri's 1990 date seeing as Ron got his Poet mid '88.

Another piece of info I got that could help DR is that prior to the late '50's, the crest was black and white print (standard with many british manufacturers), where as through much of the 6O's it was a light to mid blue. The dark blue crest came about during the '71 move.

I hope this helps you folks.

Zee.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:56 am

achi11es wrote: I hope this helps you folks.

It most certainly does! You should come out of the Real Life Archaeology more often

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:00 am

An extract from my correspondance with a previous HJ employee. This might interest you Steve:

I first started working at HJ in about 1982 ish ..at 13 Old Burlington St , this was directly behind Savile Row
[...]
Within about a year ( i apologise , this is over 25 yrs ago !!) we moved back to Bond St , No 30 ... the shop was opened by Prince Michael of kent & it was a big deal moving back to HJ's original st .. I cant remember when HJ moved from 38 New Bond to Old Burlington St , Im guessing it was in the 50's ?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:26 am

achi11es wrote:Another piece of info I got that could help DR is that prior to the late '50's, the crest was black and white print (standard with many british manufacturers), where as through much of the 6O's it was a light to mid blue. The dark blue crest came about during the '71 move.

I hope this helps you folks.

Zee.

Thanks, Zee. When I get home, I'll check my HJ and see. It definately has the blue crest, just not sure if it is light or dark blue.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:19 pm

I have to wonder when the blue unicorn looking crest was used. We did see this unicorn looking crest as well as the burgundy 5 sided crest in the hats from the Lucas Warehouse walkthrough video, that some folks probably still have a copy of.

I have seen the black and white crested liners, but not sure if it was one of my vintage HJs or a customers sent for a reblock. But, I have only seen on, to my recollection. Fedora

WyoWilliam · Post by **WyoWilliam** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:44 pm

Fedora wrote:I have to wonder when the blue unicorn looking crest was used. We did see this unicorn looking crest as well as the burgundy 5 sided crest in the hats from the Lucas Warehouse walkthrough video, that some folks probably still have a copy of.

I have seen the black and white crested liners, but not sure if it was one of my vintage HJs or a customers sent for a reblock. But, I have only seen on, to my recollection. Fedora

I was considering asking this in a seperate thread, but as it's mentioned here, I thought I'd ask. In TLC, I believe you can see two seperate liners in the hats. One with a red (burgundy?) crest during the Donovan party scene and a blue one as it flys off Harrison's head on the tank. For a brief moment I wondered if Christy's was around then as I know they have red crests on the liners now. And since they are currently the same hat, I thought if perhaps they existed then...?
It sounds like the party scene liner, though, simply has a burgundy crest. Thanks for clearing that up!

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:46 pm

The one seen with the Burgundy crest is a Herbert Johnson. Their pentagon crest was used from very late 80's through to the 90's. As Steve pointed out, the Blue crest hat would have been older stock which probably had their old address on it. This would suggest that the Herbert Johnson had moved premises at about the time of TLC. The crest of Christies today is a larger and glossier version of one that has been in use since the 60's (I have a Bowler from Christies dating back to then). Infact, when Christies was using black and white stamped logos they had the same design. I once saw a Christies very wide brimmed mid 19th century hat that had a very very faint inked Christies logo on a very worn liner. My own silkplush topper from the 30's has this very same stamping.

One thing that perplexes me about Herbert Johnson from the 30 New Bond Street period is that they have numerous crests with this address, and all that I've seen, mostly from a vinage hat shop in Fulham, are fabric stickers slapped in the middle of the liner. These stickers I've also seen on flat caps and military headgear.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:02 pm

achi11es wrote:One thing that perplexes me about Herbert Johnson from the 30 New Bond Street period is that they have numerous crests with this address, and all that I've seen, mostly from a vinage hat shop in Fulham, are fabric stickers slapped in the middle of the liner. These stickers I've also seen on flat caps and military headgear.

It is my guess... and ONLY a guess, that the ones with the sticker on are "lower quality" hats (still good felts though) or perhaps just cheaper models, saving costs on the liner, thinner sweatbands etc.
Maybe Fedora knows for sure.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:55 pm

It is my guess... and ONLY a guess, that the ones with the sticker on are "lower quality" hats (still good felts though) or perhaps just cheaper models, saving costs on the liner, thinner sweatbands etc.
Maybe Fedora knows for sure.

No, I sure can't say. I do know that the blue unicorn looking crest was actually on the liner, imprinted and not a sticker. Every oval burgundy crest and burgundy pentagon crest were all decals. I think we can assume that the Raiders fedora came with the blue unicorn crest.

Now, I don't know for sure, but I think when the crest changed, coincided with a change of suppliers for the hats HJ sold. And crests could overlap moves of the shop as well. I recall Swales telling someone long ago, that just because the sweat had an older address did not mean the hat was sold from that place. They apparently used up inventory kept at whatever factory they used, before putting the new address on the sweats. And that makes sense, as they would have paid for those imprinted sweats and crests, and would not just throw them away.

When HJ changed from the pentagon to the oval crest, the decals, this was when HJ changed to Borsalino for their hats. It is no coincidence that the Borsa HJs had a similiar crest as was being used on the Borsas of that era. Both the HJ and the Borsa featured an oval shaped crest. IN fact, except for the script, they look identical. HJ still has these ovals in stock as sometimes that will remember to include them with the hats Indy Mag has shipped to me. Otherwise, you get the gold scripted liners with HJ on them. Fedora

The felt hat made by Borsalino, was a stiffer, almost a western kind of felt, compared to what is used now.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:41 pm

Just whistling in the wind here....but, has anyone tried to lift up one of the decals before? Is there a chance, JUST a chance, mind you, that maybe they created the stickers to place over top the old address emblem of old existing stock liners that had the old address printed on them?

Like I said, just tossing that out there as a point of discussions.....or not.

Regards! Michaelson

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:37 pm

You're right there Steve, the HJ I got recently, a tan fedora with a 1" gold ribbon seems to date to the late 80's early 90's and is quite stiff. What I find intriguing is that the liner is sewn in, the sweatband is sewn in about 1/4" above the brimbreak and the grosgrain stitching is barely visible. This hat, though not a vintage, is of a much better quality to what is available from Swaine Adeney Brigg.

Michaelson, I was wondering the same. I think I may just take the liner out to have a butcher's underneath. These stickers are exactly the same as those found in flat caps and military hats from this period. I also think they may have slapped those stickers on the old addressed liners.

Zee.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:24 pm

Michaelson,

My HJ oval crest sticker peeled off in the humidity of North Carolina back in the summer of 2003, and there was nothing under it. It's just a fabric sticker with adhesive. I found some matching burgundy thread and sewed the sticker back onto the liner when I got home from the trip. Good as new!

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:18 am

What I find intriguing is that the liner is sewn in, the sweatband is sewn in about 1/4" above the brimbreak and the grosgrain stitching is barely visible

Yes, I find it intriguing as well. No brim break stitching as seen in the LC fedora, plus the factory that made this hat, still sewed in the liners, like all of the old companies used to do. Before they took the easy route and used glue. I wish I could recall if Marosy's HJ he got from Lee had the brim break, or higher stitches. I was too new at the time to notice stuff like this. Fedora

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:33 am

I just checked my liner, and it's glued in.

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:12 am

I checked under my liner, and it too is blank under the decal.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:27 am

You know, in talking about HJ and their suppliers, of which we know very little of course, I found out last year that the UK still had a big hat making company, but can't recall the name of it now. At the time it surprised me as I had thought all of those companies were long gone. Now, I don't know if this company even still existed last year, but did exist in the 80's for sure. Should have wrote that stuff down I guess, but didn't. Anyways, at the time that I saw this, being referenced online, I thought, why in the world would HJ use other suppliers from various other Countries when they had one right there fairly local? Funny that I recall my thoughts more than I recall the data the thoughts pertained to.

The hat posted about above with the stitches above the brim break and sewn in liner wreaks of old English hatmaking. Makes me wonder IF that hat was actually made in England? Prior to WW2 England was a huge hatmaking nation! They supplied headwear to their Empire. Which as we know at one time was huge. The war ended that, and they lost much of this business, due to hat factories being built to supply the demand, in various parts of the world. They never recovered. But apparently, they still did make some hats.

Also, the brim break stitches that we see in the LC hat and the current Christies and HJs, is used by that factory in Spain who is their supplier today. Makes me think the LC hat was made in Spain! These little fingerprints, like the unusual brim break stitching can possibly be used to determine WHO made particualar hats for HJ. I think we can conjecture that the Raiders fedora was not made in Spain, due to those stitches. The factory that made them, used above the brim break stitches. Which doesn't narrow it down at all, as most factories use above the brim break stitches!

Spain seems to be the only one today that uses those brim break stitches, as seen in the LC hat. May be more than coincidental. Fedora

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:44 am

Hornets is about a minutes walk from where I get my haircut, so I tend to pop in everytime I'm there. On one occasion the fella in the shop also mentioned hats being made in the UK - I think he said north England, will ask him again on my next visit. In south London there is an old firm that refurbishes formal hats like toppers and bowlers, but don't make hats from scratch. I have a feeling that the HJ that I'd picked up may have been refurbished by HJ in Cambridge - Nicky once mentioned that they did that on site, but I'll confirm with her if that is so.

Zee.

achi11es · Post by **achi11es** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:10 pm

The fella at Hornets confirmed that it was north of England where Christies hats are made, adding that Locks and Bates have their hats made there too. Now I don't know how much of that is actually true, but I will pop into Bates (they've moved from their old premises, which had a lot of charm, and are now sharing premises with Turnbull and Asser on the same street, just further down) and Locks and ask the assistants there.

Oh, and Steve, funny thing. I went to Swaine Adeney Brigg to get a large hat box for storing my HJ's and the address on the box they sold me had the 10 Old Bond St. All my HJ's have every address bar 10 Old Bond St, but the box has it - now anyone who inherits my hats are really going to be left scratching their heads!

warped in storage · Post by **warped in storage** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:22 am

Well don,t know if this is any help me being a "noob" and all but there is a hat factory in failsworth greater manchester

which is of cause oop north so am guessing that could be the factory in question making todays hats of christie,s et all

if i am way off the mark then i will leave the cogitating an ruminating to the " TOP MEN "

Gary

Collectedin89 · Post by **Collectedin89** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Very interesting thread.

I will always remember meeting Richard Swales when I was 12 years old and travelled to London and placed my order with him for a hat.

He was a really nice guy and gave me a tour of the shop and sent the hat to me a week later.

Does he still work at Swaine Adeney Brigg?

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:12 pm

Collectedin89 wrote: Does he still work at Swaine Adeney Brigg?

Nope, he's retired. Not sure if he's still alive

Collectedin89 · Post by **Collectedin89** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:20 pm

Erri wrote:
Collectedin89 wrote: Does he still work at Swaine Adeney Brigg?
Nope, he's retired. Not sure if he's still alive

Thanks for the reply! Much appreciated.

Pete#9 · Post by **Pete#9** » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:00 am

Hi lads, has anyone here seen a HJ Poet with a Old Burlington St address with no liner and the label directly on the felt?
I thought all HJ Poets had a liner of some description?
Were all HJs from this era made with rabbit or did they have a beaver option too?

Thanks
Pete

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

parfaitelumiere · Post by **parfaitelumiere** » Tue Jul 23, 2024 1:50 pm

Thanks, would it be possible to get pictures of those variations, also, is there explanation about lining or no lining?
Thanks

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:12 pm

Probably not. This thread is 14 years old, and Fedora passed away last year.

Regards! Michaelson

parfaitelumiere · Post by **parfaitelumiere** » Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:30 pm

Sorry about that.
I found two hats one with 38 New Bond street and other with 13 Old Burlington, one has no lining.
I also don't know about lining, I asked the company before seing this thread, so I will post reply, depending on what they will tell me.

RNomura · Post by **RNomura** » Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:41 pm

I didn't know he had passed. Even after 16 years, I always had hope that I would see a new hat.

I'm glad I still have my "Ford Felt" hat.

~Ron

Michaelson wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:12 pm Probably not. This thread is 14 years old, and Fedora passed away last year.

Regards! Michaelson

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jul 25, 2024 5:10 pm

RNomura wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:41 pm I didn't know he had passed. Even after 16 years, I always had hope that I would see a new hat.

I'm glad I still have my "Ford Felt" hat.

~Ron

Michaelson wrote: ↑Tue Jul 23, 2024 2:12 pm Probably not. This thread is 14 years old, and Fedora passed away last year.

Regards! Michaelson

Still have and wear mine, too.

Regards! M

parfaitelumiere · Post by **parfaitelumiere** » Wed Jul 31, 2024 10:13 am

I used the intels earlier in this thread to try to date old 38 Newq Bond St design.
I found a hat, and I was suspecting it to be quite late production, the colors synthetic lining and plastic layer, looked so 60's 70's.

And I was right, in fat the hat is from 1971:

Would there be some lucky owners of 38 new Bond Street hats to share their pictures, showing date?
I would like to know which kind of lining can be found inside a 1910's H&J hat, can be a fedora or bowler.
Thanks a lot.

parfaitelumiere · Post by **parfaitelumiere** » Tue Aug 06, 2024 5:41 pm

Here is what I found for now, regarding dates, this is only for the 38 new bond street era.
The appointment is supposed to be from 1901, but the earlier appointment I found is from 1936, so I am not sue about pre-1936 design, except what is described here, the colored shield seems to appear between 1936 and 1952.