Crystal Skull turn

[knibs7]

I noticed this the first time I saw Crystal Skull, but never got around to talking or asking about it. I thought I noticed a little bit of turn in the very first shot of Harrison back as Indy. Compare to Raiders SOC scene. (Oh BTW, I hope I age even HALF as well as he did.)



Kyle

[binkmeisterRick]

Kinda looks that way, doesn't it? I believe Fedora has said that he made no turned hats in CS, however, knowing the felt he uses, I know I can warp the brim that way on my CS fedora without having to turn it. It might be the way it was handled when put on his head, or it could very well be his head affecting the brim. If you look at the ribbon comparison, though, the CS ribbon is where it should be, so I don't think the shape is due to the turn. That said, the brim sure makes it look that way.

[mrkaboom]

Going off topic ever so slightly and in agreement with Knibs when Ford turns to the camera and says RUSSIANS! it made me get shivers. 20 years away and HE'S back! He has aged extremely well and can definitley pull off a final filmif they do it in the next 2 years which is what is rumoured.

Sorry no wback to you guys and the turn!

MK

[DR Ulloa]

I'm with you on this, Rick. I don't see the turn in this hat. I can get the brim to swoop like that just with my hands. Its not as drastic as the Raiders hat but it happens. It was probably banged up against something and caused the brim to look that way. For some reason, folks dobt associte the AB with softness of foppiness bu both of mine are floppy and are very maleable. Achieving this look can even be done accidentally.

Dave

[RaidersBash]

If Steve said he didn't put a turn into the hat, then there is no turn.

BUT... I did notice the difference in the shirts, where the epaulets end in relation to the vertical seems or whatever those are called.

[knibs7]

Sorry for the confusion, but I was merely saying that it LOOKED like a turn. I know Steve didn't make any turned hats, but I was just seeing if anyone else thought it LOOKED turned like in Raiders.

Kyle

[binkmeisterRick]

Which is why I said what I said.

Kinda looks that way, doesn't it? ... That said, the brim sure makes it look that way.

[theinterchange]

On another side note, notice how filtered that shot of CS is compared to Raiders.

I don't really see any turn there. Though, I chatted with John Penman about this and it seems like he thought it may have been inadvertently turned. But don't quote me.

Randy

[Satipo]

Ford seriously needs a tan in that CS shot. In fact a good tan is probably the most overlooked part of Indy's look. Back on topic, I reckon the CS hat looks better with that brim warp going on.

[BendingOak]

Ford could be a shape that a slightly off center hat and you get the turn effect. I know if I want a even brim ( unturned hat ) I have to make myself a hat that is slightly bigger.

[Chewbacca Jones]

I'm with John on this one. Few people have an even oval head shape, and a snug hat (which was the the tactic for keeping Indy's hat on) tends to warp unless it's a very stiff hat. The less even the head shape, the more warp. Also, this happens a lot with long oval heads wearing regular oval hats.

That said, I'd also like to point out that a turned hat cannot be reliably identified by the bow position. Bows can be sewn on anywhere on a hat, and repositioned if needed - even put on incorrectly from the get-go. Plus, with todays digital technology, Ford could have put his hat on sideways and they could fix it in the editing room!

[binkmeisterRick]

So... are you saying the replaced the bow on his hat with a walkie talkie?

[Chewbacca Jones]

So... are you saying the replaced the bow on his hat with a walkie talkie?

Yes, but when George saw it, he made them change it back.

[knibs7]

So... are you saying the replaced the bow on his hat with a walkie talkie?

Gotta love MOTB

Kyle

[Gater]

actually, I think it was a reference to the 'remastered' E.T.

[Chewbacca Jones]

actually, I think it was a reference to the 'remastered' E.T.

That's what I'm figuring.

[Texan Scott]

I think a few things are at work here. The hat was rolling around on the ground, etc. before he placed it back on his head. This could have caused some of the slight distortion, slight brim warp. Also, he could have placed it on his head in such a way as to appear slightly distorted. Some people, due to the shape of the head, can normally put on a hat it can naturally appear that way. Camera angle, angle of the brim makes it appear slightly distorted. They apparently did not intentionally 'turn' the hat as it is known today.

[knibs7]

Ok everyone for the last time,
I WASN'T TRYING TO SAY THAT IT WAS MADE WITH A TURN. IT JUST LOOKS LIKE IT IN THAT SHOT.

KYLE

[darthbish]

Hey Knibs, can you give us the same shots but show us the crown??
I wanna see the change in pinch etc.

Cheers
Bish

[Indiana Jeff]

Ok everyone for the last time,
I WASN'T TRYING TO SAY THAT IT WAS MADE WITH A TURN. IT JUST LOOKS LIKE IT IN THAT SHOT.

KYLE

Gee whiz, no need to shout.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Cannuck_Indy_Fan]

What does it mean to 'turn' a hat anyway?

E

[Indiana Jeff]

The "turn" refers to taking the hat and, well, turning it slightly so what would be the true front-center of the hat is off-center in relation to the wearer's head. Then the hat is bashed in the off-center position so the front crease lines up with the center of the wearer's face. This turn causes the hat's brim to curve in specific ways. It is generally believed that the only hat with turn is in ROLA and even then, only specific scenes. Check out this thread http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10903 (located at the top of the Fedora Section BTW) for an extensive analysis of fedora characteristics.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[binkmeisterRick]

Ok everyone for the last time,
I WASN'T TRYING TO SAY THAT IT WAS MADE WITH A TURN. IT JUST LOOKS LIKE IT IN THAT SHOT.

KYLE

No need to shout or get worked up over it, we heard you the first time, Kyle. Folks are just surmising what may have caused this hat to look this way. Lay off the caffeine a little, okay?

[beaverlid]

Ok everyone for the last time,
I WASN'T TRYING TO SAY THAT IT WAS MADE WITH A TURN. IT JUST LOOKS LIKE IT IN THAT SHOT.

KYLE

No need to shout or get worked up over it, we heard you the first time, Kyle. Folks are just surmising what may have caused this hat to look this way. Lay off the caffeine a little, okay?

Bink, I read in another thread you were a counterfeiter, wallet thief.... You can add Negotiator to your resume now.

Talk him down, Talk him down.....

[Mike]

It is generally believed that the only hat with turn is in ROLA and even then, only specific scenes.

Lets keep in mind…especially when addressing newbies with info…that the "turn" is a theory that was started here on these boards. We don't know for fact that any were turned, but have talked about it for so long that it has been accepted as "fact".

In fact, the same effect has been achieved by jamming a too small hat on someone's head (my too small HJ does this), and it has also been supposed that this could've been the case in the SoC scenes.

Its always been my opinion that the turn is just a more comfortable way to achieve the look while not inducing a headache.

[Indiana Jeff]

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.



You mod types are always on your toes!

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Fedora]

Lets keep in mind…especially when addressing newbies with info…that the "turn" is a theory that was started here on these boards. We don't know for fact that any were turned, but have talked about it for so long that it has been accepted as "fact".

In fact, the same effect has been achieved by jamming a too small hat on someone's head (my too small HJ does this), and it has also been supposed that this could've been the case in the SoC scenes.

So very true. And remember the CS hats were according to Ford, " a bit tight", while he was being fitted with the AB. The hats were made 22 7/8. This is when I found out Ford did not wear a 7 1/4 hat, (58) but rather his true size, is 7 3/8, US sizing. Bernie wanted the hats tight, so as to help Ford keep it on! May have been a headache in the making. Fedora

[BendingOak]

It is generally believed that the only hat with turn is in ROLA and even then, only specific scenes.

Lets keep in mind…especially when addressing newbies with info…that the "turn" is a theory that was started here on these boards. We don't know for fact that any were turned, but have talked about it for so long that it has been accepted as "fact".

In fact, the same effect has been achieved by jamming a too small hat on someone's head (my too small HJ does this), and it has also been supposed that this could've been the case in the SoC scenes.

Its always been my opinion that the turn is just a more comfortable way to achieve the look while not inducing a headache.

This is true but the to tight theory would not explain why the bow is moved forward but the turn theory does explain the bow being moved forward.

[DR Ulloa]

Maybe Swales did a poor job of placing the bow. The ribbon was tacked on pretty badly so who know. By the way, I believe the hat in Raiders was trurned and that that was Noodleman's idea buut I just want to add fuel to the fire.

Dave

[Texan Scott]

It is possible to place your hat on your head, and for it to not be perfectly centered.

[BendingOak]

It is possible to place your hat on your head, and for it to not be perfectly centered.

Yes, and that what I think happened to the CS pic that is posted here.

[VP]

Noodleman

Classic.

[Texan Scott]

This image is from the CS activity book for kids, one of my fav. hat photos of CS, and continuity (movie) wise, is sequentially just before the first still was posted in this thread above. This is just after the hat was rolling around, he then put it back on his head. The hat was styled in such a way as to be very reminiscent of LC, the low crown and loose front pinch. About the only difference in style between it and the LC fedora is the wider dimensional brim cut and no brim curl. Other than that, it looks alot like a LC fedora. No turn...

To me, it was the camera angle and position of the hat's brim that hinted of this illusion.

[beaverlid]

This image is from the CS activity book for kids, one of my fav. hat photos of CS, and continuity (movie) wise, is sequentially just before the first still was posted in this thread above. This is just after the hat was rolling around, he then put it back on his head. The hat was styled in such a way as to be very reminiscent of LC, the low crown and loose front pinch. About the only difference in style between it and the LC fedora is the wider dimensional brim cut and no brim curl. Other than that, it looks alot like a LC fedora. No turn...

To me, it was the camera angle and position of the hat's brim that hinted of this illusion.

Isn't the crown height on the CS fedora as tall as the Raiders?

[Texan Scott]

Judging from the ribbon, the crown height looks to be 4" to 4 1/4".

[Fedora]

Certain scenes in the film are similiar to the Raiders brim. Some look more LC. But all were cut exactly the same, as I have a formula I use.

In the above two pics, it could be the hat was moved around during filming. You know, you cut to another face, and then come back to Ford. The hat could have been monkeyed with, or Ford could have taken it off, put it back on, etc. The hat he wears at the start of the film, while on the outside, is also not creased down to the specs I was given. I saw that right off. The back crease had moved up, a bit.

On alot of the film hats, Bernie also steamed and defined the top crease in some of the scenes. Choosing the front and back height that he did, did not give you much left for good humps. If you do see good humps, that is an indication he dropped the back crease down to 4 inches. Which is what I personally would have done if I were him.

You see some changes in the hats, in this film, mostly due to Bernie putting creases back in, and using mucho steam. Not to mention you will also see hats that were saturated and then used again. A good thing really, because as you wear your CS, it will over time give you all of the looks you see in Indy 4. The right block will do this. Fedora

[beaverlid]

Judging from the ribbon, the crown height looks to be 4" to 4 1/4".

I asked about the crown height because I orderd a CS from Steve and the crown at its highest point is 5 1/4

[Chewbacca Jones]

This is true but the to tight theory would not explain why the bow is moved forward but the turn theory does explain the bow being moved forward.

Maybe Swales did a poor job of placing the bow.

I do believe that most people prefer to ignore the possibility that the bow was attach further forward than on most hats. I notice that when I've suggested it over the years, nobody ever acknowledges it. I have owned several hats that would be judged as "turned" based on the bow position, but were not.

So, for this thread, this idea has now been stated THREE times, twice by me, once by DR Ulloa. And I will further his comment by saying that Swales' work might not have actually made it to screen. Costumes are frequently altered during a production, and some evidence has been found that other pieces of Raiders gear were altered after leaving the hands of their original makers.

[BendingOak]

I can see one or maybe 2 hats where swales made the mistake on placing the bow but not all of them, not that much.

[Chewbacca Jones]

I can see one or maybe 2 hats where swales made the mistake on placing the bow but not all of them, not that much.

True, unless that's where he placed them by habit. Maybe he (or his customers) liked the bow there so it could be seen better. Or, the continuity guys realized that the hats didn't match after the forward bow was already on film, and moved them all to match that one. It's just not all that far fetched. The possible explanations don't end there, and are at least as likely (if not more) than somebody thinking to deliberately spin every hat on the star's head before bashing it.

I'm not saying I must be right, but I do have to insist on equal plausibility.

[BendingOak]

Not highly likely my friend. There are other signs to show the hat was turned rather than not getting the bow centered. You can clearly see that the top of the " camel humps" when seen from above has more on one side than the other. Remember turning the at does more than warp the brim or movers the bow. It makes the hat more boxy. Notice the hats that don't have "the turn" they don't seem as boxy and the center dent looks even.

I was like you at first a few years ago and didn't believe in the turn but it's just way to easy to get some of the look of the raiders hat by only turning and bashing the hat off center.

[Texan Scott]

Judging from the ribbon, the crown height looks to be 4" to 4 1/4".

I asked about the crown height because I orderd a CS from Steve and the crown at its highest point is 5 1/4

Right. That would be the total unbashed crown height at 5 1/4".

[Chewbacca Jones]

To Turn or not to Turn? That is the question. To suffer the slings and arrows of gearheads...
(ahem)

There are other signs to show the hat was turned rather than not getting the bow centered. You can clearly see that the top of the " camel humps" when seen from above has more on one side than the other.

I agree that other signs exist, and this is one of them. But being a daily hat wearer and excessive hat buyer, I've seen my share of interesting behavior from hats (including uneven crowns from un-turned fedoras). No doubt you have, too, and will see even more as time goes by.

Still, the detail that, for me, most argues in favor of the turn is the brim width. Because of the dimensional cut, turning the hat has the effect of making one side of the brim look wider when viewed from the front. While this could be accounted for with careless measuring and trimming, it stacks the deck when you have the bow placement, brim warp, and strange crown shape all in.

I don't know if I'll ever be totally convinced, because it's such an odd thing to do... and for nobody from the production to ever have mentioned it. I would find that a memorable detail and fun story to tell.

And, for the record, I never said "highly likely." I think I said, "Holy Blimey!" But that's another thread all together.

[Restless Dreamer]

sorry to quote an older post but

Ford could be a shape that a slightly off center hat and you get the turn effect. I know if I want a even brim ( unturned hat ) I have to make myself a hat that is slightly bigger.

I agree with Oak and add this: it's VERY difficult to bash a hat that is PERFECTLY symmetrical. it is more likely to bash it with the center pinch slightly off center, in a way that you can't notice. let's consider this: the ABs sent for the movie to Pollack were freshly bashed, and some of them arrived on set with the bashes pop out. Now, while it's difficult to change the position of a Raiders center pinch, it's very easy to move a little left or right a CS/LC/TOD pinch, just by pushing; plus, add the fact that, while the Raiders pinch is a straight line, other bashes are composed by two curved lines that gradually meet the ribbon. The left curve can be more curved that the right one, or vice versa.

What I'm trying to say - in a confused a chaotic way, I know - is that can be quite tricky to obtain a PERFECT symmetrical bash. Add this to the angle of the camera or the fact that the brim could have warped due to the distressing process, and you obtain some shots in which the CS hat seems to be turned - or IS turned, even if in a very slight way.

EDIT: and I wouldn't blame knibs for "shouting". It's very likely to get misunderstood in this board - I had this issue a while ago, very unpleasant. Probabily, seeing how the topic was becoming "hot" and the discussion growing and calling in many folks, he got worried about being misunderstood - I would have done the same

[Fedora]

My own opinion is that most of the Raider fedoras were indeed turned. Occam's Razor.

I can arrive at this conclusion by just comparing the Raiders fedora to the TOD and TLC fedora. The brims were not warped on those later hats. And I know for certain that turning a hat, either on purpose or accidently will certainly yield that warped brim that is so much a part of the Raiders fedora. I cannot think of one old film that shows a warped brim, like the Raiders fedora has. This adds to the evidence, to me.

It very well could be that when given a real soft hat like the Raiders fedora was, the bump on the backside of Ford's head automatically turned the hat. Wheras a stiffer hat, like the LC fedora would not turn when he put it on. Ford's hats in CS were as soft as beaver can get, from the outset, and then I added one that was stiffer, because I added shellac per Bernie's request, while he was in N.M. doing those opening scenes. I got a call back after I had shipped a stiffer hat, telling me to nevermind. Bernie's hatshaping skills had come back to him, while working with the N.M. hats. He was initially frustrated by the creases popping out in action scenes, and thought more shellac would stop this. I have to assume he did not like the stiff hat that he had requested, and I had sent, because he wanted no shellac added in the remaining hats to be made.

So, it may be that Ford's particular headshape turns a real soft hat. That would be one explanation. Because I see a turned hat in Raiders. I have no doubt about this at all. Fedora

[Indiana Jeff]

So what we're saying is the brown sea plane hat was turned and the grey SOC hat was too tight. Both of these combined with Ford's irregularly shaped head (I mean, look at him, he's looks like the Phantom of the Opera) and we got all the warpy, distorted, loopy, curved, off-centered features of the hat we all know and love.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Chewbacca Jones]

Fedora, you're being a little unclear about something, I think. A head shape does not actually turn a hat, it distorts it. On the other hand, getting hat, especially a snug one, to fit on an unusually shaped head can require one to turn it slightly off center.

You seem (from what I'm reading) to be combining these two concepts into one, which I don't think you mean to. They are not the same thing. Either the hat is physically placed on the head crooked to accommodate the head "bump," or it is placed on straight but reacts to the push and pull of Ford's "bump."

I do think Fedora has an excellent point about the later movie hats reacting differently. I have some hats that wouldn't distort Raiders-style unless they were on almost sideways. Also, many of us gearheads have discovered that turning works to varying degrees depending on head shape, the fit of the hat, and how stiff it is.

[Fedora]

Fedora, you're being a little unclear about something, I think. A head shape does not actually turn a hat, it distorts it. On the other hand, getting hat, especially a snug one, to fit on an unusually shaped head can require one to turn it slightly off center.

Yes, indeed. I can be unclear, no doubt about that.

What I was trying to say was that given the bump on the back side of Ford's head, a soft hat that was put on, MIGHT slip to one or the other side, in this case, to the non bow side of the hat. Because of the bump. Now, it's just conjecture, on my part. I am just looking for other reasons for the turn. Whereas a stiffer hat, has the opening really set in stone, sort of, with the stiffness of the brim, that would not allow this sliding to one side to occur. It would just feel uncomfortable to Ford.

I do know one thing for sure, that is a fact. The warped brim of most of the Raider fedoras can be achieved easily by turning the hat, on purpose, or accidently. Something is causing the brim to warp, and a turn is the simplest answer. The long oval head doesn't fly here, because Ford isn't really a long oval. I don't know where that urban myth got started. But it still is very alive today. We custom made the hats, for Harrison, and Bernie was aware of round ovals, reg ovals, and long ovals. We made the hats in regular ovals.

And you are right of course about the stiffness of the hat affecting the brim. It would be very uncomfortable to just turn a stiffer hat while on the head, but you would not notice a real soft hat being turned. So easy to put on a real soft hat off center, if you don't check the mirror. We even see the Raiders hat moving in the Raven scene. Right when he thinks he gets shot. The hat has spun back to the bow side, and shows the crease off center. A stiffer brimmed hat just tends to stay square.


To me, the warped brim and the bow being set forward is a pretty good indication of the turn. Now, if the bow was centered, it would be less clear to me, personally.

But with that said, I really don't see much of the asymetrical look, of the turn, by looking at the top of the crown. If you turn a hat too much, one hump is smaller than the other, noticably. I see this all the time when I turn hats. The Raiders fedora, on the top, doesn't show very much of a turn at all. In fact, I can't see it. But, a slight turn, would not affect the top that much anyways. But move past a certain point, and you get humps that don't match. One will be smaller in width. The Raiders fedora actually looks to be pretty even, in regards to the top humps.

Remember that close up of the Nazi wearing a gray hat? A previous tight front pinch is visible, and it is moved back from a turn. So, it sits left of center. To me that looks like it was Ford's airplane hat, that was pinched off center, or turned, but when the actor used it, it sat straight on his head. That almost says to me, the turn was intentional. I reckon we will never know if it was or not. Fedora

[crismans]

Even though this picture is not a straight on shot of the top, to my mind at least, it does show the turn in that the dimensional brim just seems off.

http://www.theraider.net/showimage.php? ... ts/036.jpg

[Chewbacca Jones]

The long oval head doesn't fly here, because Ford isn't really a long oval. I don't know where that urban myth got started. But it still is very alive today. We custom made the hats, for Harrison, and Bernie was aware of round ovals, reg ovals, and long ovals. We made the hats in regular ovals.

I think it got started by the grapevine effect. Once people understood that the warp COULD be caused by a long oval head jammed into a round oval hat, the theory that Ford might be LO formed and the myth was born. But some of us know better now, thanks to you and Bernie.

I did just remember a tight soft felt fedora I had many years ago that warped in a really cool way on my head. Not like the Raiders warp, but it was neat.