Side by side of the Indy 4 brown hat and gray hat

[Fedora]

Since I was about to ship these out once I do the final tweaking, I figured it would be good time to post a pic of these hats side by side. Here goes.





It is raining here today, so the pics are a bit dark. Thought the white backing would lighten up the pic, but nope.


Believe it or not, these are not the same blocks. The gray hat is much more tapered than the brown. I just do what Bernie did on some of the hats in the film,(he was not always on set) and press the sides in on the brown ones, so they come back into proportion. The brown Indy 4 fedora is a squarer block than my Raiders block, and I am still puzzled as to why Bernie chose it over the more streamlined Raiders block that I use. I think being so straight sided, allowed him more felt to work with to get his final look. This Indy 4 block(brown hats) is a very versatile blockshape, and you can get many looks from it. Depending upon how far you push the creases back, how deep you crease the top, and even the shape of the creases used. You can also see these various looks throughout the film, with the relaxed creased hat looking too wide, for my tastes, especially compared to some of the other film fedoras. To me, when Bernie was riding trail on the hat, it looked pretty good, and you can tell the days he was not on set to keep the hat looking up to his vision. I am sure he was annoyed about it.


One of the critiques I have read about the Indy 4 hat is that it looks like a western hat. This was in reference to the felt we used. But, this is only true if you compare it to the Raiders felt, which was indeed the poruous type felt we see on "some" dress hats. Having seen the felt used on TLC, it was also what some would consider to be a "western felt" if compared to the Raiders felt. But as I have said prior, if you watch the old films on TCM, you don't just see the cheaper porous sort of felt, but also the smoother, good stuff. To identify all dress felt with the porous rabbit type is a mistake. Generally speaking, the finer the nap, and the less pourousity is indicative of the higher end hats, even back in the heyday of hats.

The major difference between western felt and dress felt is nothing more than the amount of stiffener used.(plus the amount of fur used per body) There is only one way for fur to mat! And in the past, a low quality felt(even dress felt) could be made to look smoother by the addition of shellac during the manufactering. Whilst a high quality felt could stand on its own, without adding shellac to keep the fibers glued together, hence providing a smoother finish. Fedora

[WalkingEye]

i always enjoy reading your posts Fedora! It's great having these insights into real hatting.

I've noticed that blocking a porous lighter body and a heavy thicker body on the same block results in hats that have the same basic open crown block but when bashed look rather different. meaning the take the bash differently. does this also happen when you block a rabbit body and a beaver body of similar weight on the same block? does the tightness of the felting affect the bash?

and beautiful hats as usuall!

[Mitch LaRue]

Thanks for this post, Steve (AND that side-by-side shot)... I love that I always learn a little bit more when I read your posts...

[Indycrazy5187]

Since I was about to ship these out once I do the final tweaking, I figured it would be good time to post a pic of these hats side by side. Here goes.





It is raining here today, so the pics are a bit dark. Thought the white backing would lighten up the pic, but nope.


Believe it or not, these are not the same blocks. The gray hat is much more tapered than the brown. I just do what Bernie did on some of the hats in the film,(he was not always on set) and press the sides in on the brown ones, so they come back into proportion. The brown Indy 4 fedora is a squarer block than my Raiders block, and I am still puzzled as to why Bernie chose it over the more streamlined Raiders block that I use. I think being so straight sided, allowed him more felt to work with to get his final look. This Indy 4 block(brown hats) is a very versatile blockshape, and you can get many looks from it. Depending upon how far you push the creases back, how deep you crease the top, and even the shape of the creases used. You can also see these various looks throughout the film, with the relaxed creased hat looking too wide, for my tastes, especially compared to some of the other film fedoras. To me, when Bernie was riding trail on the hat, it looked pretty good, and you can tell the days he was not on set to keep the hat looking up to his vision. I am sure he was annoyed about it.


One of the critiques I have read about the Indy 4 hat is that it looks like a western hat. This was in reference to the felt we used. But, this is only true if you compare it to the Raiders felt, which was indeed the poruous type felt we see on "some" dress hats. Having seen the felt used on TLC, it was also what some would consider to be a "western felt" if compared to the Raiders felt. But as I have said prior, if you watch the old films on TCM, you don't just see the cheaper porous sort of felt, but also the smoother, good stuff. To identify all dress felt with the porous rabbit type is a mistake. Generally speaking, the finer the nap, and the less pourousity is indicative of the higher end hats, even back in the heyday of hats.

The major difference between western felt and dress felt is nothing more than the amount of stiffener used.(plus the amount of fur used per body) There is only one way for fur to mat! And in the past, a low quality felt(even dress felt) could be made to look smoother by the addition of shellac during the manufactering. Whilst a high quality felt could stand on its own, without adding shellac to keep the fibers glued together, hence providing a smoother finish. Fedora

what size is the grey hat?

[sam]

Steve, thanks for posting these. As always, your work is fantastic! It's so cool to see these two hats together, two peas in a pod!

[Hollowpond]

Beautiful hats!!!!

Travis

[DR Ulloa]

Steve, I absolutely love the grey hat you created for CS. It is, in my opinion, the hat that is closest to what Indy may have worn back in the 1930's. I will be ordering one of these babies soon. It is also great to see the comparison between the hero hat. I always assumed it would appear much taller than the hero hat, but they look about the same. Thanks for this photo.

Dave

[Hairyloft]

Great now I want a gray hat as well! but I have nothing else to sell apart from a kidney. ah well Great post to read, always great hats to see!

[RCSignals]

Two great hats. It is interesting the Grey uses a different block.

I like that red hat stand too

[Indy35]

Those are beautiful hats, and to be honest i prefered the Grey lid that Ford wore in CS. I know, i know, its blasphemy, but i really loved the shape and look of the hat.

I do have a question, are those crowns a notch taller than normal? They both look taller than the 5.5 inches.

[The Penitent Man]

That CS GRAY is a beaut!!

[nicktheguy]

drooling yet again over here.

[DR Ulloa]

Those are beautiful hats, and to be honest i prefered the Grey lid that Ford wore in CS. I know, i know, its blasphemy, but i really loved the shape and look of the hat.

I do have a question, are those crowns a notch taller than normal? They both look taller than the 5.5 inches.

The CS train hat was 5 3/4''. It appears to be just a hair taller than the brown one, so I'd say they look about right. I always assumed the difference would be more noticeable. Maybe I'll stick to the stock measurement when I order my CS grey travel hat.

Dave

[ANZAC_1915]

So which liners did the 2 gray film hats have?

[DR Ulloa]

I can't remember ever reading which liner those two had.

I would assume that they had the vintage white liners like the hero hat, but I can't be sure. Maybe Steve can enlighten us?

Dave

[Fedora]

To answer the question.....both hats are 23 inches. Which means both were made on the same blocks I used for the film.

The photo is deceptive in presenting the crown heights. The brown hat is a little shorter than the gray, but you would be hard pressed to determine that going by those pics.

And yes, if you block a stiffer felt on the same block as a softer felt, the final creased hat will differ. That is an illustration of how different felts react to a particular blockshape. A softer felt may appear to be a straighter hat than a stiffer felt, coming off of the same block. The reason is obvious of course, so I won't get into a long winded explanation as to why this is.

On the liners, I am not 100 per cent sure on the first gray hat I made. It would have been a plain liner, or the Staff of Ra liner, and I just don't recall for sure. I do think though that once Bernie commented on our Ra liners, we stopped using them, for obvious reasons. I think all of the sample hats had the Ra liners though, and once we made the contract order, we put the plain ones in. So, perhaps since the first gray hat was a sample(and used in the film) it had the Ra liner. I do know the contract gray hat did get the plain liner, that is for sure.

The thing is, Bernie had this gray hat block shape in hand when he chose the CS block instead. So, it was his call, which one to use. There was something about the CS block that he liked over the others........and while some thought the brown CS fedora to be ugly, there were uglier hats in TOD and TLC, IMO. Some of those CS brown fedoras look good to me, while others don't. The ones I don't like are the ones that appear to be too wide, but NOT ALL have that appearance. As with the other costume designers for Indy, each one put their own signature on the hat, and this happened for the last film as well.

One other thing that affected the hats is Marc would block half of the hats on his round oval Raiders block, so he could do the brim cut and the pouncing. I would then have to take these hats from Marc and reblock them on the CS block. He did such a good job in setting the shape that some of the hats morphed back into a round oval after I sent them in. I think this is the reason some of the hats appear to be wider, or a round oval. And some don't. Guy Morse Brown had botched the blocks taken from a techical drawing early on, and I basically had to reblock all of the hats Marc made so we would be consistent. And since time was of the essence, these reblocks were done fast and dirty, which came back to bite us in the end. Marc is just too good of a hatter!! When he set that round oval shape, he REALLY set it. Neither of us thought about this at the time. Fedora

[DR Ulloa]

So the only way to have a true CS fedora is for Marc to block a hat on his round oval block and then have you block it on your CS block?

...Hey Marc!

I love reading about how you guys made these film hats. Its like I'm sitting there next you while you make them.

Dave

[binkmeisterRick]

I knew it! The Indy IV fedora was blocked on a Folgers can!

[DR Ulloa]

You mean we all could have made our own CS hats and had that "best part of waking up" smell all day long?!

Steve, I want my money back!

Dave

[Indy35]

I knew it! The Indy IV fedora was blocked on a Folgers can!

I used that exact same plastic can on my fed to square up the sides, i never thought it would work, but it did. It didn't make it razor straight, but sure took out a lot of the bad taper, it still tapers though.

[3thoubucks]

The CS hats looked consistent to me, and NEVER ugly. They were all great looking. It's fun to hear these inside details about the film hats, thanks Fedora!

[jacksdad]

I often wondered wha the secret block was for CS and now I can tell everyone it was a coffee can ha ha

[XPLSV]

I had originally peeked at this post from work and the images were blocked...getting back to the thread from homeand viewing the pics (finally), it reminds me I'm likely in need to order a gray Adventurebilt to go along with the brown one that has yet to arrive... Suppose I should do that sooner rather than later

[Fedora]

Actually that coffee can contains the bows that go on the sweats.

Also, half of Ford's brown hats were blocked originally by Marc with me doing a quick reblock. The other half were done completely by me. Same with all of the stunt hats. I also tweaked Marc's bows to match my own, since Bernie wanted each hat a clone of the other. We also installed many of the hats with Marc's kangaroo hide sweats, with half of Fords getting mine, and half gettting his. We both wanted ourselves represented in this film. I think we pulled it off nicely, although the round oval block of Marc's did change the look of some of the hats. My fault though. I just did not set the new shape well enough, but remember, we were on a hectic time table. I got very little sleep during this period. To the point that it is hard to even recall making most of those hats. I had a picture of 6 of them sitting outside on my mom's patio table, and apparently lost the pics, or never saved them. I would regularly box the hats up on that table and also match the colors out there in the bright daylight. I could kick myself for this!!! But, I was dog tired, and that is my excuse.

If I could do this all over again, I would have never of sent the CS block though. That would have made Bernie pick between the gray block or either Marc or my own Raiders block. I think the hat would have looked a little better, but that is just me and my love of the Raiders look. It is funny now, in a way, because Bernie already had our other blocks and there I go sending him another choice. But, we were trying to get this gig and I thought the more looks we showed him, the better off we would be. Later on, after the film was in the can, I then found out that Bernie had picked us as soon as he got in our samples. He just did not tell us!!!! He made us work for it. But a nicer gentleman, I have never met. I sort of hate it that he has some detractors, but hey, it's a free country and opinions are part of that. For me, I will never forget the experience, and Bernie is such a class act. My life is richer that is for sure. Fedora

[DR Ulloa]

Did none of your roan sweats make it into the film, Steve? I'm a fan of those. Much nicer than the ones in most of the film and on your current hats. I understand, of course, why you continue to use them. If someone wants a CS hat, they need the same sweat also.

Dave

[Fedora]

Did none of your roan sweats make it into the film, Steve? I'm a fan of those. Much nicer than the ones in most of the film and on your current hats. I understand, of course, why you continue to use them. If someone wants a CS hat, they need the same sweat also.

No, we did not use the antique roan color at all in the film, samples or otherwise. I don't know if Bernie had wanted the brown over the roan, I just can't recall, but something made me change to the choc brown sweats, as I had been using the antique roan color for a long time. Oh, NOW it just came back to me!!! I had ordered a gross of sweats at the time we first talked to Bernie, and prior to us getting the gig. I had ordered antique roan, but they messed up and sent me the choc brown ones instead. So, I had to use that because I did not have the time to get in new ones for the sample hats. So, while the antique roan is NOT my fav sweat color, I am inevitabley stuck with the brown ones, since they were used in the film. I was letting my stock run down on the roan because I was fixin' to change to Singer as my source for sweats. The film changed that plan. So I am stuck with the F and T sweats from here on out, at least for the CS fedoras. I may change to the Singer sweats for the raider's fedora at some point in the future though. Just have to use up my huge inventory of the antique roan ones first. Since I have sold mostly CS fedoras since the film, it might take a few years to use up the 3 gross that I bought for the Raider fedoras last year.

More on the CS block. One thing is for sure about this very old hat block. It is a rare one and a very old style that you really don't see today. 3M$ might be gratified that this is almost a 360 block, but only on the sides. The back and front has some taper, but not very much at all. The shallow top crease in most of what you see on the film down not help this hat from the side view. But, drop that baby down to the Raider specs on the front and back, and you do get a nice arc. They just did not do that for the film. A crying shame, to me personally. It would have gotten rid of the boxy shape you see in some of the CS hats, as well as improving the side views. I may style one of these hats in a couple of variations and show pics to illustrate what I am talking about. It is a very versatile block, depending upon how it is creased. Bernie was after TLC look in so far as creases were concerned, and he liked how deep the front of the hat could be creased due to its very full crown.

Lately I have been watching alot of old films, and I swear I have seen this same blockshape in some teardrop and C-dent hats from the 30's. The weakness of the block shows up on folks with really thin faces. It is not the blockshape that looks good on this facial shape. Remember, way back, a man picked his hat in order that it fit his face. So various blockshape came into play in the old days. Afterall, most wanted to look good in their headwear. So crown shape and brim width was considered heavily for most men when choosing their hats. Fedora

[DR Ulloa]

Good thing I don't have a slim face then.

Dave

[crismans]

Good thing I don't have a slim face then.

Dave

For once, we're in good standing!!

[DR Ulloa]

Not even when I was in shape did I have a slim face. I have always been bulky. I am built like an action hero, I've just let myself go. I've started working out though. Need to get back into shape for the big day.

Dave

[sam]

Steve, could you list some of the scenes/stills that are your favorite in regards to the hat? Also, I just wanted to quickly add my two cents in support of Bernie. As someone who grew up hiking and still spends a good bit of time outdoors both for work and fun, the fact that Bernie wanted Indy to have gear that would work in the real world greatly endeared him to me! That and the fact that he seems to be a nice guy and appreciated Steve and Marc and Tony's kindness! I'm actually a big fan of the CS gear. It's great to be able to get Indy gear that works, that is money well spent. Thanks again for posting these hats together, Steve. Off the top of your head, what are your favorite hat scenes in CS?