So how tall is the Temple Fedora anyway?

mooniteman · Post by **mooniteman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:16 pm

So how tall is the Temple Fedora anyway?

Moony

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:58 pm

same as the raiders hat, 5 1/2 crown

mooniteman · Post by **mooniteman** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:10 pm

.... but everybody always says it's shorter... am i missing something?

GoldenHistorian · Post by **GoldenHistorian** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:24 pm

the slight taper is crating an ilusion.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:38 pm

mooniteman wrote:.... but everybody always says it's shorter

Depends who you ask to doesn't it?

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:50 pm

Waitaminute...

I owned a Stetson Temple, and I adjusted and reshaped that crown a time or two. There's no way that crown was 5 1/2 inches when open, much less shaped. Mine measured 5 1/8 when open. If we allow that it shrank a little, (actually, that would be a LOT) I'm still discussing an open crown.

That can't all be taper illusion, can it?

DanielJones · Post by **DanielJones** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:54 pm

Now, are we talking about the Temple of Doom fedora or a Stetson Temple fedora? Because, like Michaelson says, we're talking apples & oranges at this point.

Cheers!

Dan

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:29 pm

The TOD fedora was a HJ so a stetson temple is by all account not something you can compare this with.

TOD
http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ns/t16.jpg

Raiders

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/ ... ns/r16.jpg

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:40 pm

Dutch_jones wrote:The TOD fedora was a HJ so a stetson temple is by all account not something you can compare this with.

TOD
http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ns/t16.jpg

Raiders

http://www.theraider.net/films/raiders/ ... ns/r16.jpg

that one honestly looks like the same hat to me. Bash and all. I never noticed that.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:49 pm

In Temple of Doom there were several different fedoras as part of the licensing agreements. So it's impossible to say THE ToD fedora was a HJ.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:46 pm

Bullitt wrote:In Temple of Doom there were several different fedoras as part of the licensing agreements. So it's impossible to say THE ToD fedora was a HJ.

LOL thats not true

stetson didnt have any hats in the movie , at least none of hats Harrison wore. All the hats in TOFD where made by HJ. Even the plane hat.

Weston · Post by **Weston** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:07 pm

Temple was the first Indiana Jones movie I ever saw, so to me, that was the Indiana Jones hat for a long time. It always mystified me that his hat seemed to change from scene to scene, with no real continuity at all. After he jumps out of the plane, gets soaked in the river, his hat actually grows by the time he gets to the village, rather than shrinks. In Temple of Doom, you can find not just a different bash in every scene, but an entirely different looking fedora altogether, from tall and straight sided to short and tapered, extra wide brim too small. In Raider, I could always tell when a stunt man stepped into a scene because the fedora looked different. In ToD, it was a wild card. That is why I think you can take almost any of the Indy fedoras made today and find a scene in Temple to match it. I think my favorite one is the hat he had when he's on fire after getting off the mine cart, with the fairly low crown and wide, swooped brim. That one shows up several times throughout the film, but not with any consistency.

Weston

Argonaut · Post by **Argonaut** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:50 pm

I didn't even realize the TOD hat was any different until I found COW. I wasn't the stickler for details I have become today. The Indy hat looked pretty much the same to me through all the movies back then.

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:50 am

Dutch_jones wrote:
Bullitt wrote:In Temple of Doom there were several different fedoras as part of the licensing agreements. So it's impossible to say THE ToD fedora was a HJ.
LOL thats not true stetson didnt have any hats in the movie , at least none of hats Harrison wore. All the hats in TOFD where made by HJ. Even the plane hat.

That's interesting, Dutch. I think I must have missed some new information then. Could you please elaborate?

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:18 am

The plane hat was auctioned off in 2005 and it was a HJ. It was used in two other scenes of the movie too.

It's the hat Indy is wearing in the raft.( obviously) and also the one he wears when he's fighting mola ram on the suspension bridge up on the wall. I know someone who is a journalist and had acces to info about the indy movies. This was one detail he learned that all the hats for the indy movies ( at least the ones that Harrison wears are HJ poets.

hope this helps

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:34 am

In addition to the fact that on auctions only HJs came out... if I'm not wrong, Swales also stated that HJ was the sole and only supplier of hats for ToD too. Stetson only came in the franchising, or whatever it's called

Good pictures up there Dutch

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:07 am

I have read that Stetson indeed placed hats in TOD. They still call their unlicensed hat the "Temple" when they gave up the right to sell it as their Indy fedora, that is, using Indiana Jones in the advertising. The Stetson Temple is 5 inches tall, BEFORE they crease it. I found this out from Stetson many years ago when I was trying to get a taller fedora from them. I was told by Stetson that 5 inches was the tallest hat they made, and at that time it was the Nostalgia that was sold open crown. So, the hats placed in the TOD film were less than 5 inches tall when creased, probably 4 3/4.

The HJs? I am not sure, but I figure 5 1/4 to 5 3/8, just going by what I see, and guessing. Fedora

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:12 am

Yep.
Barely 5 inches is my recollection on the crown of the Stetson Temple when pushed up.
According to this site, the creased crown you receive is 4 1/4 inches...

www.dadshats.com/temple1.html

- and 4 inches even according to this one...

http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/page/H/P ... t/3201-blk

4 or 4 and a quarter, still too dinky to be a decent vintage fedora, much less a passable Indy.

Consider another option is my vote.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:41 am

Don't know Fedora, sounds like another claim to fame like every company does. They don't seem like saying it openly that they made hats for the film (I think because they would get their arse sued by Herbert-Johnson or Lucas) therefore it sounds like a big bull to me, like the many that now claim they made Indy4 hats, well at least they try.
Where have you read it anyway? I'm sure more recently we've heard from many respectable sources that the Indiana Jones hats in ToD and LC were all Herbert-Johnsons (as well as Raiders of course) and that a Stetson involvment was only one of the legends of early-COW.

Fedora wrote:So, the hats placed in the TOD film were less than 5 inches tall when creased, probably 4 3/4.

Mmhh I would like to see a screengrab of such a shorter hat. I know there are scenes where it looks shorter but not too many. Afterall also the cairo hat in Raiders looked shorter till you take the measure out and, wow, it's the same hat. Tricky hat indeed

Bullitt · Post by **Bullitt** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:48 am

Thanks Dutch and Erri, I didn't know that part of the story completely. With all these different claims it's kinda hard to identify what's true and what not.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:46 am

I'm sure more recently we've heard from many respectable sources that the Indiana Jones hats in ToD and LC were all Herbert-Johnsons (as well as Raiders of course) and that a Stetson involvement was only one of the legends of early-COW.

Wait a sec... Does this mean there were absolutely no Stetsons used in TOD? I didn't hear that this was "legend" until now.

Just curious.

MB

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:57 am

Well I say is legend, like the belief that the raiders hat was 6" (or 5.75") or that there were no grey hats in Raiders. Unless of course a proof from reliable sources can be shown (then I would change mind, but has to be a good source). If we just stick to what we've heard from other users as the truth, we're not going anywhere, just messing up.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:02 am

Well, knowing what I know, we'll just have to agree to disagree, Erri.

Regards! Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:09 am

Let us know what you know or i'll just have to keep agreeing to disagreeing too

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:12 am

Ummm.... it's all here Erri. In the Fedora section, do a search. It's on the main page for Fedoras on IG.com as well. Yes, Stetson DID have product placement in ToD. Look at the fedora he's wearing during the scene when the Tri-Motor is crashing, that is NOT a HJ. That's a Stetson.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:15 am

I read on indygear just yesterday but couldn't find where this information was heard from (while on other details is clearly stated who said what).
I'm actually very curious. Tell me if i missed some lines Minnesota

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:16 am

Erri wrote:Let us know what you know or i'll just have to keep agreeing to disagreeing too

Well for one, as you're fond of quoting Steve Delk:

I have read that Stetson indeed placed hats in TOD. They still call their unlicensed hat the "Temple" when they gave up the right to sell it as their Indy fedora, that is, using Indiana Jones in the advertising. The Stetson Temple is 5 inches tall, BEFORE they crease it. I found this out from Stetson many years ago when I was trying to get a taller fedora from them. I was told by Stetson that 5 inches was the tallest hat they made, and at that time it was the Nostalgia that was sold open crown. So, the hats placed in the TOD film were less than 5 inches tall when creased, probably 4 3/4.

These were the hats that kept appearing on Ford's head that looked like pie pans from one shot to the next...then a taller HJ would appear in the very next shot.

Regards. Michaelson

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:21 am

From the main fedora page:

A couple twists came along with Temple of Doom. First, Herbert Johnson was no longer able to supply the original Brazilian manufactured hat, substituting instead the Borsalino manufactured hats - the current source for the Poet and McAlpine hats. In addition, clothing merchandising began to take-off with the release of Temple of Doom in 1984. With this, Stetson reportedly secured product placement in both the actual movie as well as in the marketing material. As a result, there appear to be about as many hats in the movie as there are scenes with the hat.

Paramount decided to really get into the marketing/retail act, and requested items for sale IN the movie theaters when Temple of Doom was released. Paramount did this for ALL the movies that came out in the Summer of 1984, such as Gremlins. What ever didn't sell was returned to Paramount and was then sold off through their store or outlet locations.

As a result of the wide variety of hats used in the movie, one has a fairly broad range of different looks to choose from. One of the more popular seems to be the "Suspension Bridge" hat, which appears to have been lightened during the editing process, having what appears to be a wider brim - though I believe this may just be because the brim is snapped down all the way around the hat. Given the variety of hats seen throughout the movie, specific measurements really have little meaning.

Please don't ask us to go back and dig thru records to scan copies of letters and such proving this for you. It's on the main page for a reason. The Staff knows and believes this to be fact, or we would have removed this statement from the main page, revamp done or not.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:26 am

I find it disheartening that so much documented information gathered first hand by founders and members of this site years ago is being doubted by some now. THIS is what starts the rumour mill and causes the facts to get muddied.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:27 am

Minnesota Jones wrote: Please don't ask us to go back and dig thru records to scan copies of letters and such proving this for you.

Fair enough. I know you have done this before. My doubts come from the fact that unreported sources can lead to misleading information that in the end no one knows where they came from. Example, from the website of the Brazillian Felt maker used by HJ back in the days, they clearly states THEY actually made the hats for the film (not the felt). Same thing could have happened since most of us don't know what documents you actually had access to... therefore my original doubts.
This of course is just for the sake of talking. I know what you mean Minnesota and I trust that you had confirmation from many different sources for this. Therefore I shut up about this and I eat back what I said about the legend

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:37 am

Minnesota Jones wrote:Ummm.... it's all here Erri. In the Fedora section, do a search. It's on the main page for Fedoras on IG.com as well. Yes, Stetson DID have product placement in ToD. Look at the fedora he's wearing during the scene when the Tri-Motor is crashing, that is NOT a HJ. That's a Stetson.

THAT IS A HJ!!!!!!

IT was sold in 2005 and is on www.screenused.com It is a Herbert Johnson hat.

http://screenused.com/index.cfm?section ... ndyhat.cfm

OH YES and like Erri said all those claiming the stetson in TOD please show us photographic proof... I don't see a short crowned hat in TOD..

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:52 am

Ummm.... where does it say on his site that the hat in question is a HJ? I don't see that listed anywhere.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:58 am

Minnesota Jones wrote:Ummm.... where does it say on his site that the hat in question is a HJ? I don't see that listed anywhere.

Argh you're right the listing is gone. Maybe Desi knows?

Well.. All the hats left at Lucasfilm are HJ's from different years. No stetsons..

But I only had this link. But still the stetson thing is just about the same as the Barons claim. If we didnt know Fedora and Marc from these boards. We would have said that KOTCS would have a few Barons in there too!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:15 pm

I tend to side with the documented proof. Besides, I believe Fedora said there was actually one DP in KotKS—product placement—so take that as you will.

Dutch_jones · Post by **Dutch_jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:33 pm

Ok, I found the link with more info:

http://www.screenused.com/index.cfm?sec ... em_id=2557

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:03 pm

viewtopic.php?t=13434&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Check out this thread, made here a while back. A ways down, on page 2, Desi (aka Screenused) comments on the hat in question, and notes some features on the interior which clearly establish that it is indeed an HJ.

I'm still not sold on the idea that there were NO Stetsons in TOD, but I doubt there are anywhere near as many as some of us (myself included) had assumed. I also seriously doubt if ANY ever made it onto Ford's head. But that's just me.

-GCR

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:13 pm

This is what I was eventually talking about. With documents buried deep it's easy to end up messing up and say wrong information such as the plane hat was a Stetson (just because tapered) etc etc. For all we know Stetson could have provided hats for some other character other than Indiana Jones but they can still say "some of the hats in Temple of Doom were ours".
It's very dangerous when not everyone has access to the same information.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:26 pm

Why bother.

Even when hard core, documented proof about items of gear that been researched and photographed is presented, most of the time it isn't believed, so what's the use anymore?

I give up.

Michaelson

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:29 pm

Minnesota Jones wrote: However, I also will still stand by the Staff of this site that Stetson had product placement in Temple of Doom too.

Since some of you have access to the documents and probably remember what's stated in them. Can you confirm that the actual indiana jones hat (and not other characters' hats) was also provided by Stetson?
For what I know, a Stetson could be the one on the Commonwealth soldiers in this scene (not the turbans, the two in the back have that kind of hats that looks like could be Stetsons)

http://www.theraider.net/films/todoom/g ... ts/384.jpg

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:34 pm

For the record, I have no issues with the fact that Stetson produced hats for product placement in TOD. I've just reconsidered the idea that many of those Stetson hats made it on film and specifically on Ford's head. Is it possible? Of course, I just think that with the most likely Stetson candidate (the cockpit hat) now proven to be an HJ, we may have to rethink some of our long held believes as to how many hats in TOD were Stetsons. I have no dispute with the idea that Stetson made hats for the movie. I've never had any reason to doubt that, personally.

-GCR

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:13 pm

Erri wrote:Where have you read it anyway? I'm sure more recently we've heard from many respectable sources that the Indiana Jones hats in ToD and LC were all Herbert-Johnsons (as well as Raiders of course) and that a Stetson involvment was only one of the legends of early-COW.

Stetson told me. Bernie said Stetson was trying to place one in this one too. No luck.

I may have it wrong, and Stetson may have only placed one in TLC.

There was certainly a Stetson placed in TLC. Stetson had a sales poster that said, Indy is back, and he is wearing a Stetson". Placing the Stetson in the film is common business practices when hocking a big name hat like Stetson. It means bucks in the pockets.

But in those films, the HJ was the main hat. No doubt about that. Fedora

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:44 pm

I've removed some of my extra comments above as it doesn't really matter, as Michaelson states. People will continue their quests for information already clearly documented, and nothing we can say or produce will change that.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:47 pm

Steve, Stetson and the Paramount prop department folks both told me back in 1985 in phone conversations that they placed a hat in TofD, and it was one of the hats seen in the cockpit scene.

There are two hats seen in that series of close ups, and the Stetson was supposed to have been the larger of the two with the flater brim. The super tapered hat was the HJ.

Now, back at that time we didn't have anyone sign anything in blood, nor did we know that all these years later our word would no longer be believed, but as I said above, even when documented proof is provided, it's still debated, so it doesn't seem to matter.

Thanks, MJ. Like I said, I'm done with providing much more info now. Even when you're holding a smoking gun, it's questioned now, so why bother.

Regards! Michaelson

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:14 pm

Erri wrote:It's very dangerous when not everyone has access to the same information.

Information is only useful when you choose to accept its value when presented by people who've already done the research. If you choose not believe the information presented by the people who have done that research, then I suggest you do your own research and draw your own conclusions -- and I don't mean just clicking a few websites... the web is as much a cesspool of misinformation as it is a font of information. Pick up a phone, write letters -- correspond with people, as the folks you're doubting did. Don't just regurgitate stuff posted on the web.

As for danger? ...It's just a hat.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:19 pm

Minnesota Jones wrote:Look at the fedora he's wearing during the scene when the Tri-Motor is crashing, that is NOT a HJ. That's a Stetson.

Michaelson wrote:There are two hats seen in that series of close ups, and the Stetson was supposed to have been the larger of the two with the flater brim. The super tapered hat was the HJ.

I stand corrected. So actually... it's both.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:30 pm

WeeMadHamish wrote:then I suggest you do your own research and draw your own conclusions -- and I don't mean just clicking a few websites... the web is as much a cesspool of misinformation as it is a font of information. Pick up a phone, write letters -- correspond with people

Even with hundreds of people having done that for years still we're getting different answers (when not opposite) from different sources regarding several pieces of indygear so please let me be if I want to have some doubts about information that I cannot access but I only have to take as an act of faith of who has done it for us. Sorry if I wasn't around 10 years ago when you started quesitoning people, does it mean I can never have doubts?
How many times should you make me eat my words before the sin is punished anyway?
By the way, don't worry, if you want to be on someone's good list you're on the good path WeeMadHamish

Spatterdash · Post by **Spatterdash** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:32 pm

Gad.

Caught on a plane where your hat morphs between a Stetson and a tapered old HJ, I'd jump out, too. That's a little too threatening.

In a situation like that, "hero" becomes subjective; the little kid and nightclub songbird had better get movin', 'cause if the hat be changin', I be bailin'.

I wouldn't want to look down and see the Aldens become Nikes, would you? Yeah, that's what I thought, gearhead.
Jump, gearhead, jump.

Minnesota Jones · Post by **Minnesota Jones** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:56 pm

Erri wrote:...so please let me be if I want to have some doubts about information that I cannot access but I only have to take as an act of faith of who has done it for us. Sorry if I wasn't around 10 years ago when you started quesitoning people, does it mean I can never have doubts?
How many times should you make me eat my words before the sin is punished anyway?

We'll leave you be, for now. BUT when you start questioning facts and trying to call into doubt items Michaelson has unearthed for us, you trigger a red flag. I wouldn't have even posted in this thread otherwise. Michaelson has researched alot of all this back before the net, when most of us were either kids playing in a sandbox or goofing off after school. So be aware anytime you start questioning our research, Michaelson's research... the Staff, Administrators, and Owners of the site that you're posting on will start questioning YOUR motives.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:01 pm

Questioning my motives is something. Being cheeky and aggressive also in other threads where I write (expecially for a staff member) is something else.
I should make a list of who-researched-what so I'll know which things I will not be able to question ever.

WeeMadHamish · Post by **WeeMadHamish** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:57 pm

Erri wrote:By the way, don't worry, if you want to be on someone's good list you're on the good path WeeMadHamish

I'm not trying to get on anyone's good list. I'm just saying that if you're not satisfied with the answers that have been given, then you should seek your own answers from the sources.