Jimmy Pierce vs. Miller vs. Keppler Indy
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Jimmy Pierce vs. Miller vs. Keppler Indy
Can someone please comment on the workmanship, quality and durability of the hats made by the above three individuals - Jimmy Pierce, Miller and Lee Keppler? I have read excellent reviews for all of them and their prices are excellent. Would owners regard them as a toss up? Thanks
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Chewbacca Jones
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If by Miller you mean millerhats.com; Both JP and Keppler make a better hat. At one point I owned one of each (Miller, JP, Kep). I rather like Millers - rich color, very classy looking, and not bad for the money - but in the areas that concern you, Miller is not the top choice.
If you're looking into a Keppler, it's a good hat and it's the one I'd pick out of the three. Several of our mainstay members like them, and it's hard to find bad things to say about their hats.
As for JP, mine has (quite by accident) never gotten wet or been through any harrowing adventures, so durability remains unknown to me. Otherwise, I like the hat and I think it holds it's own against the Keppler. I have issues with JP's service and practices, though. Some have had better luck in that area, and others are willing to overlook those issues to get his hats. Ultimately, a personal choice.
If you're looking into a Keppler, it's a good hat and it's the one I'd pick out of the three. Several of our mainstay members like them, and it's hard to find bad things to say about their hats.
As for JP, mine has (quite by accident) never gotten wet or been through any harrowing adventures, so durability remains unknown to me. Otherwise, I like the hat and I think it holds it's own against the Keppler. I have issues with JP's service and practices, though. Some have had better luck in that area, and others are willing to overlook those issues to get his hats. Ultimately, a personal choice.
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Michaelson
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JPD hat pure beaver, Miller rabbit felt, Keppler beaver blend.
It's comparing a Cadillac with a Chevy with an Olds. All GM, but all different material and styles of making.
JPD is a custom, Miller a production line creation, Keppler production line creation but craftsman hand shaped.
Completely different price ranges as well. How is a comparison possible?
Regards! Michaelson
It's comparing a Cadillac with a Chevy with an Olds. All GM, but all different material and styles of making.
JPD is a custom, Miller a production line creation, Keppler production line creation but craftsman hand shaped.
Completely different price ranges as well. How is a comparison possible?
Regards! Michaelson
Jimmy Pierce makes rabbit and beaver hats. The rabbit hats are the ones in the $125 range... I owned one and it was a great hat. It tended to look best with temple of doom bridge bash. Jimmy can make a custom hat in different open crown heights for those with different face shapes.
C3
Here's a JPD in Raiders and TOD bash -
C3
Here's a JPD in Raiders and TOD bash -
Last edited by coronado3 on Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've never owned a Keppler, and I commented on the Miller in another thread, so I'll just throw my two cents in on the Jimmy Pierce Hat.
The JPD is available in a rabbit felt option as well as beaver, the rabbit being the more affordable of the two (around $125 I think). I own one of the JPD rabbits and beat the @#$% out of it, so it's not really in the greatest shape anymore, but I can't blame that entirely on the hat itself. Jimmy is switching his rabbit felt (or already has, I don't know for sure) so even if I could give any input as to durability, it wouldn't do any good anyway, as the felt would be different on the newer JPDs. Not a bad hat for the money (if you're talking about the rabbit version, I wouldn't buy a beaver hat from Jimmy when there are other options in that higher price range that get more of the SA details right) but like Chewie says, there have been some issue with service and turnaround times, so just be aware of that. The JPD blockshape isn't half bad, but the ribbon is too wide by an 1/8 of an inch, and the ribbon color is a peculiar grayish brown.
Again, if I were in your shoes and had to pick between the three, I would personally go for a Keppler, because I've already owned two Millers and a JPD and while both were fine hats, neither brand lived up to expectations.
-GCR
The JPD is available in a rabbit felt option as well as beaver, the rabbit being the more affordable of the two (around $125 I think). I own one of the JPD rabbits and beat the @#$% out of it, so it's not really in the greatest shape anymore, but I can't blame that entirely on the hat itself. Jimmy is switching his rabbit felt (or already has, I don't know for sure) so even if I could give any input as to durability, it wouldn't do any good anyway, as the felt would be different on the newer JPDs. Not a bad hat for the money (if you're talking about the rabbit version, I wouldn't buy a beaver hat from Jimmy when there are other options in that higher price range that get more of the SA details right) but like Chewie says, there have been some issue with service and turnaround times, so just be aware of that. The JPD blockshape isn't half bad, but the ribbon is too wide by an 1/8 of an inch, and the ribbon color is a peculiar grayish brown.
Again, if I were in your shoes and had to pick between the three, I would personally go for a Keppler, because I've already owned two Millers and a JPD and while both were fine hats, neither brand lived up to expectations.
-GCR
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Dr.Seuss
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Just:
My suggestion, a few moments in the "search" mode for this forum. A plethora of information on those hats. Presume, you read my recent JPD review?
I have two JPD's. One 5 1/2 crown height, and far too short; and the recent 6 1/4 open crown. As to durability, concerning the 5 1/2 hat, I tried every trick I knew (which, in actuality may not be too many) to stretch it and gain some crown height without sacrificing brim width. I could not. That crown, despite repeated wettings, steamings, pulling, tugging, and assorted fulminations, remained the same height.
The hat after the "abuse."
In short, if the 6 1/4 hat is anywhere as shrink/stretch resistant as the 5 1/2, it is quite the rabbit felt.
Jimmy posted, he could gain almost one inch in crown height; I am taking him up on that offer. If, for some reason, it is a "no go," look for that "short" hat in the Bazaar. 5 1/2 does not work for me. JP's price for a custom hat, made to your specs, is currently seeming to be a good deal.
Sincerely,
My suggestion, a few moments in the "search" mode for this forum. A plethora of information on those hats. Presume, you read my recent JPD review?
I have two JPD's. One 5 1/2 crown height, and far too short; and the recent 6 1/4 open crown. As to durability, concerning the 5 1/2 hat, I tried every trick I knew (which, in actuality may not be too many) to stretch it and gain some crown height without sacrificing brim width. I could not. That crown, despite repeated wettings, steamings, pulling, tugging, and assorted fulminations, remained the same height.
The hat after the "abuse."
In short, if the 6 1/4 hat is anywhere as shrink/stretch resistant as the 5 1/2, it is quite the rabbit felt.
Jimmy posted, he could gain almost one inch in crown height; I am taking him up on that offer. If, for some reason, it is a "no go," look for that "short" hat in the Bazaar. 5 1/2 does not work for me. JP's price for a custom hat, made to your specs, is currently seeming to be a good deal.
Sincerely,
Last edited by Dr.Seuss on Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr.Seuss
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Aeris_Canon wrote:When you order these really tall versions of an Indy hat you're not keeping the brim dimensions the same as what they'd be on a 5 1/2" open crown hat are you? I can't help but think that 6 1/4" with the 2 3/4" by 2 1/2" brim specs would look more like a top hat than a Raiders at that point. What do these hats look like on your head?
Actually, I have kept the standard brim widths. Surprisingly, the hats do not look like "toppers."
I will get a couple of pictures up, shortly.
Sincerely,
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Mississippi Jones
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Michaelson
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Michaelson
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I've had one in hand to review. I REALLY liked that one, let me tell you....but it was too small, so it went back to the shop. 
From what Joe told me later, he had hardly taken it back out of the box when someone walked in the door and bought it right out of his hand!
Without giving specifics, his felt is EXACTLY comparible to both Steve Delks and Art Fawcett's beaver and rabbit felt hats. Trust me.
Sorry to have tossed a 4th hat maker in this thread, but since you were looking for comparisons, I thought I'd make you aware of that company as well.
Regards! Michaelson
From what Joe told me later, he had hardly taken it back out of the box when someone walked in the door and bought it right out of his hand!
Without giving specifics, his felt is EXACTLY comparible to both Steve Delks and Art Fawcett's beaver and rabbit felt hats. Trust me.
Sorry to have tossed a 4th hat maker in this thread, but since you were looking for comparisons, I thought I'd make you aware of that company as well.
Regards! Michaelson
No problem. I appreciate it. Jimmy Pierce's hats are still the least costly of all the custom makers, though. He quoted me $125.00 + shipping. I have to wonder if the others are so much better in quality to pay an extra $100 or more, especially if they use the same felt now. That is why I just asked Jimmy to make me a new hat. Any thoughts about this?Michaelson wrote:I've had one in hand to review. I REALLY liked that one, let me tell you....but it was too small, so it went back to the shop.
From what Joe told me later, he had hardly taken it back out of the box when someone walked in the door and bought it right out of his hand!
Without giving specifics, his felt is EXACTLY comparible to both Steve Delks and Art Fawcett's beaver and rabbit felt hats. Trust me.
Sorry to have tossed a 4th hat maker in this thread, but since you were looking for comparisons, I thought I'd make you aware of that company as well.
Regards! Michaelson
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Michaelson
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Not really. Each hat maker has his/her own formula as to what they need to pay for their overhead, materials, and time.....as well as you're paying a man/woman for their knowledge of the craft.....so it's all a matter of who has the most experience, and the quality of the product you get in hand that helps determine price I suppose.
In Peter's Bro's case, they're $75 more than what Jimmie produces in a rabbit felt hat, and they're custom made too.
This directly from their site:
Regards! Michaelson
In Peter's Bro's case, they're $75 more than what Jimmie produces in a rabbit felt hat, and they're custom made too.
This directly from their site:
Could it be the fact you're dealing with a 4th generation hat maker that accounts for the additional $75?The Peters family has been professional hat makers
for four generations and these Indy Hats are exclusively
made to order. Felt is individually selected and is then
hand blocked and CLOSELY coordinated with each
customer to ensure exact and total satisfaction in every
regard--shape, brim, style, etc. Product quality & accuracy
are guaranteed to the customer at his discretion.
Regards! Michaelson
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binkmeisterRick
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Edit: I see Michaelson chucked in an answer as I was typing. He brings up excellent points, though!
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Just because a group of hatters use the same felt doesn't mean each hatter will produce the same quality hat. In the case of Steve Delk (who I will use as my example) he individually pounces each hat by hand to his specifications. (Other hatters would likely have their own specs and methods.) Steve also designed and engineered his own set of custom hat blocks which NO ONE else can get, so that adds to the uniqueness of his hats. He also sources specific sweatbands, as well as the exact hat ribbon that Herbert Johnson used, which you will find from no other hatter. Add to the fact that he cuts and stitches his sweats and ribbons completely by hand (most hatters use a sewing machine to attach the sweat) and you have a hat which will stand out from the rest.
There is more to a hat than just using the same felt supplier. Keep in mind that hatters will even get specific felts and colors and the quality of the bodies they purchase can vary greatly. Now, you can put all the before mentioned hatters together and give them the exact same hat body and leave them to their devices. They will all make a good hat, but I bet you'll be able to tell them all apart by sight and by touch.
The price of the hats should also be adjusted depending by the amount of work which goes into it, though some pricing does seem arbitrary at times. The mass majority of hatters use machinery which allows them to knock out many hats in one day. Stitching the sweat in with a sewing machine alone saves an incredible amount of time versus sewing it in by hand. Blocking machines also save on time if they are used. But when you get a single hatter like Steve or Marc at AB, each hat is created 100% by hand, without machinery, and by one man and no one else. This takes time, so in order to make a living at it, it makes perfect sense to price your hats so you can afford to keep making more while being able to pay the bills. You'll likely pay more for a hat that takes a long time to make, versus one that's cranked out in an hour.
That said, direct competition will also affect pricing to a degree. The felt used (rabbit, blend, or full beaver) will be the first deciding factor on pricing, but in the arena of Indy hats, competition has kept many recent offerings within certain price ranges. At the end of the day, it comes down to the customer's choice based on research, design, budget, customer service, and product quality.
...
Just because a group of hatters use the same felt doesn't mean each hatter will produce the same quality hat. In the case of Steve Delk (who I will use as my example) he individually pounces each hat by hand to his specifications. (Other hatters would likely have their own specs and methods.) Steve also designed and engineered his own set of custom hat blocks which NO ONE else can get, so that adds to the uniqueness of his hats. He also sources specific sweatbands, as well as the exact hat ribbon that Herbert Johnson used, which you will find from no other hatter. Add to the fact that he cuts and stitches his sweats and ribbons completely by hand (most hatters use a sewing machine to attach the sweat) and you have a hat which will stand out from the rest.
There is more to a hat than just using the same felt supplier. Keep in mind that hatters will even get specific felts and colors and the quality of the bodies they purchase can vary greatly. Now, you can put all the before mentioned hatters together and give them the exact same hat body and leave them to their devices. They will all make a good hat, but I bet you'll be able to tell them all apart by sight and by touch.
The price of the hats should also be adjusted depending by the amount of work which goes into it, though some pricing does seem arbitrary at times. The mass majority of hatters use machinery which allows them to knock out many hats in one day. Stitching the sweat in with a sewing machine alone saves an incredible amount of time versus sewing it in by hand. Blocking machines also save on time if they are used. But when you get a single hatter like Steve or Marc at AB, each hat is created 100% by hand, without machinery, and by one man and no one else. This takes time, so in order to make a living at it, it makes perfect sense to price your hats so you can afford to keep making more while being able to pay the bills. You'll likely pay more for a hat that takes a long time to make, versus one that's cranked out in an hour.
That said, direct competition will also affect pricing to a degree. The felt used (rabbit, blend, or full beaver) will be the first deciding factor on pricing, but in the arena of Indy hats, competition has kept many recent offerings within certain price ranges. At the end of the day, it comes down to the customer's choice based on research, design, budget, customer service, and product quality.
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Michaelson
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Exactly right, bink. Add to that mix, using PB once again, where Steve has used his skills to design have have custom made his own set of blocks, PB has original blocks in the basement that haven't seen the light of day since the 20's and 30's that they can pull out and use, so you're paying for the opportunity of having a hat made like they used to make them 3-4 generations ago.
Jimmie brings his experience to the table, as he's apprenticed with the best, and his quality is right up there. I have one of his hats in my stable, and it's a VERY well made hat. A bit heavy (this felt was before he sourced a good fedora weight felt), but something I wouldn't think twice about wearing in the heaviest weather. Tough as nails, and VERY well made.
Everyone brings something different to the game....it's just what do they believe it's worth to potential customers.
Another factor is the price is kept high to SLOW incoming orders. As Steve has learned the hard way, keep the price low, they'll beat your door down. Problem with that, you have more work than you can possibly handle in a good turn around time.
I heard from Joe Peters just this morning. He's currently working a stock show, and will be out of the shop until February 1st. That said, he told me as of yesterday, he has so many fedora orders awaiting him when he returns, he's currently 10 weeks out for delivery! So, even with a shop as busy and as well manned as HIS, he's got a pretty good lead time.....consider poor Steve and Marc's situation!
Regards! Michaelson
Jimmie brings his experience to the table, as he's apprenticed with the best, and his quality is right up there. I have one of his hats in my stable, and it's a VERY well made hat. A bit heavy (this felt was before he sourced a good fedora weight felt), but something I wouldn't think twice about wearing in the heaviest weather. Tough as nails, and VERY well made.
Everyone brings something different to the game....it's just what do they believe it's worth to potential customers.
Another factor is the price is kept high to SLOW incoming orders. As Steve has learned the hard way, keep the price low, they'll beat your door down. Problem with that, you have more work than you can possibly handle in a good turn around time.
I heard from Joe Peters just this morning. He's currently working a stock show, and will be out of the shop until February 1st. That said, he told me as of yesterday, he has so many fedora orders awaiting him when he returns, he's currently 10 weeks out for delivery! So, even with a shop as busy and as well manned as HIS, he's got a pretty good lead time.....consider poor Steve and Marc's situation!
Regards! Michaelson
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Dr.Seuss
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That felt body supplier must be running 24/7.Aeris_Canon wrote:Yes, JPD, PB, AB, and AF use the exact same felt in beaver and rabbit (with the exception that JPD had a blended felt used on the $100 Raider, which currently comes in full rabbit now.)
Felt aside, I haven't seen a PB that didn't look too tall to me. Does someone have one that is closer to a 5 1/2" than what looks like their standard 5 3/4"?
"Tall" at 5 3/4? My PB Custom, was delivered at roughly 6 1/8 open crown. I had asked for the "_." PB Custom, but "stock" specs. (Yes, somewhat oxymoronic.)
(The "top hat" photos are just about done cooking; need to check the developing tank.)
Sincerely,
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Kokopelli
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What are the specs on that one? Is it his standard 5 1/2 crown?coronado3 wrote:Jimmy Pierce makes rabbit and beaver hats. The rabbit hats are the ones in the $125 range... I owned one and it was a great hat. It tended to look best with temple of doom bridge bash. Jimmy can make a custom hat in different open crown heights for those with different face shapes.
C3
Here's a JPD in Raiders and TOD bash -