Club Obi Wan

I like my Bushman enough to look for it's chin strap grommets on the Raiders hat. --- From the truck explosion scene. Of the 3 dusty spots on the ribbon on Indy's right side, the rear one seems to stand out in 3D. ................................................................................................................. . This probably rates up there with my Wire theory. ... Note on my hat, the stitching below the ribbon, below the grommet. This is a reinforcement, because there is a gap in the sweat attatchment stitches, where the chinstrap inserts between the crown and sweat. Note it's width, then look at the grove up the crown on the Raiders hat-

I can't imagine Indy wearing a hat with a chin strap...

Is it posible that something got caught in the ribbon?

Castor Dioscuri wrote:I can't imagine Indy wearing a hat with a chin strap...

This might help.



Sorry, Jens, couldn't pass up the opportunity!

Gotta say, I can't help but wonder if 3K is on to something............at least 2 of my Akubras of different styles have the same grommet/missing stitch configuration.................things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm........

Oklahoma Jones wrote:...things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm........

Kind regards,
Magnoli

You always notice something new after looking at these pictures over and over for years.



I never noticed the word "Freeze" on the Raiders hat before, yet there it is as plain as day. Steve - how did you miss this making your Raiders hats?

geez rick.......i almost snorted coffee all over my keyboard

I'm not claiming it's proof the Hat was an Akubra, but What makes a Poet an "Australian model"? Perhaps one with chin strap grommets installed. For riding around the windy Outback.. Chin strap grommets could be main reason it's HJ's "Australian model". http://www.davidmorgan.com/product_info ... cts_id=467

Why didn't you point this out before 3thoubucks? Now they're gonna have to completely re-shoot Indy IV.

Aeris_Cannon wrote,

Marhala bar - discussion with Belloq. Front of hat has similar marks

Frame by frame the truck explosion shot. As Indy slowly turns his head, you will see no shadow below the front two marks, only under the rear 3rd one.

But if the hat is turned, wouldn't it mean that the spot would have been more towards the back when it wasnt turned? I don't think a chin strap would be that far on the back, but i dont know.

The strap is supposed to go in front of the ear. You can see the grommmet is behind both Indy's and my ear - my hat is turned.

Ok nevermind, I was thinkin' the reverse direction. I blame it on lack of sleep. lol

Here's the naked grommet. Here it is on the inside, with the sweat folded out of the way.

Sure looks like Indy's hat originally had the grommet which was covered by the ribbon during conversion from a thin leather band and chin strap to a wide grosgrain ribbon and no strap.

Most interesting 3kB! I've so far not seen a single HJ with grommets, neither vintage nor modern, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have attached them on the movie hats. What about the ring shaped highlight on the ribbon at 2 ó clock? - To me it alsways looked like it's from the stitching...

Regards,

Marc

Didn't Terry Leonard have a chin strap on his HJ shooting the truck chase scene?

I have to check the bonus DVD.

Probably installed afterwards if so, but still!

Regards,
Swindiana

..I remember a thread, a guy named antiquity collector claimed to have bought an authentic stunt hat from Raiders from a reputable movie prop auction. I remember I thought it was faked, and he said it had a chin strap. .... I just went back and reread it- I had forgotten it was an HJ- I remember thinking it was some wreck someone had put an HJ liner in. (He said the liner was loose). So maybe, HERE's AN HJ WITH A CHIN STRAP for you Marc! (but, it's not clear if it was attatched with grommets) ....... Here's something that really freaks me out- I had posted that it was no Raiders hat, because I could see that it was originally BASHED WITH A TELESCOPING CROWN! .. 11 months later I noticed the same lines on the Raiders hat, then spent 1000 hours trying to convince you guys, but I never remembered this hat had the lines... Here's the thread. viewtopic.php?t=6520&highlight=chin+strap The pics are gone, but here's one I saved (coming in 15 minutes)

3thoubucks wrote:...... Here's something that really freaks me out- I had posted that it was no Raiders hat, because I could see that it was originally BASHED WITH A TELESCOPING CROWN! .. 11 months later I noticed the same lines on the Raiders hat, then spent 1000 hours trying to convince you guys, but I never remembered this hat...

how'z that crow tastin 3thou? i wouldn't know as i've never been wrong about anything on this forum.....nope....not a thing......

this is pretty big in the collection of facts to base your inferences on....i'm looking forward to what you're going to put together

Here's antiquity collector's "authentic HJ used in Raiders" , that has a chin strap. The line indicating a telescope crown passes across the front pinch about an inch from the peak. Indiana G wrote

how'z that crow tastin 3thou?

Well, few would believe this hat is the real deal . The ribbon is too wide. They changed the original liner just because HJ moved? But I notice it says HJ on the sweat, so I guess it is an HJ, and it does have a chin strap. My apologies to antiquity collector, but it seems I'm the only one who noticed or commented on the lines, so it looks like I proved myself wrong, which makes crow taste not so bad... more like turkey . Again, the link to the thread about this hat viewtopic.php?t=6520&highlight=chin+strap

Here's the Australian Guy with the Australian accent, in the Raven Bar. Doubtless his hat is Australian. Looks like it has a chin strap grommet. Looks like the sweat reinforcement puts a channel up the side of the hat, like on the Raiders hat, causing an inch wide shelf above the grommet where dust accumulates.

What makes a Poet an "Australian model"? Perhaps one with chin strap grommets installed.

The line indicating a telescope crown passes across the front pinch about an inch from the peak.

The telescope crown deal is still hard for me to believe. Mostly because the blockshape used for telescope crowned hats is NOT what we see in Radiers. A telescope crowned hat starts with a tall, pointy blockshape, so it can be creased down in the hat, with the pointy dome becoming the top of the hat. Think of the Croc Dundee hat. A very similiar block was used for the Maltese Falcon hat worn by Bogie. These blocks are made with the idea of using them to make particular creased hats, generally telescope crowns, teardrops and C-dents. Other blockshapes were used for hats intended to be worn open crown, like the derby, which is only one among many open crowned styles common in the late 1800s and early 1900s. If you own a Stetson Book, look in the back at the pics of the Stetson catalog, and you will see 50 hats, all open crowned, with each a little different from the others, but none came with the tall pointy dome used on later telescope crowns. Since the Raiders fedora did not have the tall pointy dome, it is not logical from a hatmakers perspective, to use a pointy dome for a homburg type crease. Oil and water here.

Since the blocks used by HJ at the time of Raiders were supposedly originally created in the late 1800s, it would be logical to assume it was a hat that could be worn open crown, or creased. This would tell me it was not the sort of block that was designed specifically for telescope crowns, although they may have had a tapered pointy crowned block for that sort of hat in stock at their factory. Basically blocks are designed for particular hats, and there were literally hundreds of block shapes, back then. These days, there are much fewer, with only a few left, and being used by hatters. When hats went out of vogue, so did the variety of block shapes, and the only ones left today are the common ones of yesteryear.

This was driven home to me when the costumer for Ford could not find the right looking block from several other hatters. What he was looking for, was not in their block inventory. All of what he got in, were just too tapered, that is, the block used to make the hat was too tapered to match up with what he had on hand from Lucas.

I think any lines seen on the Raiders fedora was from sitting on the hats, or crushing them. There are other ways to get these lines, other than it being a telescope crowned hat. Plus, most telescope crowned hats are pressed and molded in the factory, which would be so noticable that even I would notice it. A factory molded telescope hat looks weird when you pop out the crown. Too weird to be what the Raiders fedora was. IMHO.

ON the grommet theory, could be, I guess. They ended up using some of the hats we made for Ford on a stunt man, so it is possbile that in Raiders, they used a stunt hat on Ford, with the stunt hat having had the grommets added to keep the hat on in the long distance scenes. ANYTHNG is possible when it comes to filming. I always thought the Cairo hat was just well worn, but now I think it was all cosmetics after doing the hats for the new film. They want new hats to look really old and well worn, and will go to great lenghts to do that. They really believe in using Fullers Earth, I can tell you that! Makes me want to go and buy some. Fedora

A telescope crowned hat starts with a tall, pointy blockshape

To get the lines I see on the Raiders hat, the block shape needs to be quite sovepipe. That way the felt folds back on it's self sharply. A pointy block would be less likely to leave lines, as the folds couldn't be as sharp. A telescoped AB, with it's minimum taper would be the Indy hat most likely to produce the lines! This is one reason I'm dieing to get a Rabbit generic AB when they become available ............ Here's an open crown Bushman with different bashes, including telescope. http://www.davidmorgan.com/popup_image. ... 4=1&tab5=1 ......... Chin strap on the KOTCS set http://weblogs.variety.com/photos/uncat ... ones_4.jpg

3thoubucks wrote:

A telescope crowned hat starts with a tall, pointy blockshape

To get the lines I see on the Raiders hat, the block shape needs to be quite sovepipe. That way the felt folds back on it's self sharply. A pointy block would be less likely to leave lines, as the folds couldn't be as sharp. A telescoped AB, with it's minimum taper would be the Indy hat most likely to produce the lines! This is one reason I'm dieing to get a Rabbit generic AB when they become available ............ Here's an open crown Bushman with different bashes, including telescope. http://www.davidmorgan.com/popup_image. ... 4=1&tab5=1 ......... Chin strap on the KOTCS set http://weblogs.variety.com/photos/uncat ... ones_4.jpg

This Bushman is a very good argument for the theory that it may not have been a Fedora that was chosen by Deborah Nadoolman back then at the Herbert Johnson job.
There's that confusing Nadoolman sentence "it was an Australian model".
I mean, did she consider a Fedora to be an Australian type of hat?
What do you think, Steve?

Cheers
HP

To get the lines I see on the Raiders hat, the block shape needs to be quite sovepipe. That way the felt folds back on it's self sharply. A pointy block would be less likely to leave lines, as the folds couldn't be as sharp.

I dunno about that. Here is a typical telescope crown.




Notice the the severe creases it takes to pull this off. This hat here is a pointy crown model, but it does not end up looking that way by the time you do the telescope crease. To pull off the classic telescope crease requires a tapered, pointy block. I can see it clearly on this hat. The sort of block used on the Raiders fedora was not a tapered pointy block. IMHO.
Also, most telescope crowned hats that were designed to be this sort of crown, came with this tapered pointy blockshape. Now, you could take a straight sided hat and do this telescope crease, but the end results are not traditional when speaking of the telescope crowned hats in general.

I would bet, if you bought the above hat, or one like it, you would see right off that the act of putting the telescope crease in it(generally done by a factory machine) actuall distorts the upper crown to the point that you would have to reblock it in order to get those "set in" telescope creases out enough to even approach a Raiders fedora, and then it would look more like the TOD fedora, if it looked that good. IMHO. Fedora
Fedora

There's that confusing Nadoolman sentence "it was an Australian model".
I mean, did she consider a Fedora to be an Australian type of hat?
What do you think, Steve?

I think she had a vision of the Australian hat as being wider brimmed than traditional fedoras, and remember that that time, most fedoras she would have been used to were the 4 inch tall hats of the 60's and 70's, when the brims got short, and the crowns dropped in height. So, any wide brimmed, taller crown hat(taller than 4 inches) would appear to be too tall, with a wide brim.

She had access to other hats, but perhaps those hats were all the 60 and 79 styled hats with stingy brims and low crowns.

HJ was also a traditional hat shop, Those old hat shops for many years had only open crowned hats on display. It was left up to the salesman to hand style these hats to fit the customer's features, or to fit the style he was after. That was the way it was done for many years until the preformed factory hats arrived on the scene, But the good hat shops left the artistry to the hatter in residence, or at least very experience hat salesmen. You got to take the history of hats into account when doing detective work.

Also, if you take one of those Raiders fedora, and sat on it, you surely would expect the same sort of lines present on telescope crowns to show up. Sat on one and see for yourself. Fedora

This proves nothing, but in this picture of Richard Swales in the shop, with stacks of hats, the short stack to the right of, and the one to the left of his head, the hats on top are bashed. Maybe the ones underneath are not.- But maybe they are. We could be looking at stacks of pre-bashed hats here. .... What is that, some kind of white steam machine in front of Richard? This is the only pic of Swales I have ever seen. I got it from a French Indy site that dropped off the web. In the foreground there's a bowler, a top hat on it's side in front of somethig that looks fairly Indy, that Swales is shaping.

It was obvious the grommet on my hat was high compared to the Raiders hat. But I got a new Bushman, and the grommet is a half centimeter lower. 2 cm at the center vs. 2.5 cm.

Have you found any screen caps showing the grommet outline on the opposite side, somewhere over Ford left temple I'd guess?

Doug C

That's very interesting... I don't saw the grommet anyway...

Doug, I haven't bothered to look very carefully, because it's under the front of the bow, which is puffed out, which would hide it. ............... Another thing about 3:10- Russel has a wooden handle whip on his saddle. When we first see the whip, there's a "rattlesnake" sound effect on the soundtrack. You get the message he's deadly with that whip. ... He never uses it though.

3thoubucks wrote:This proves nothing, but in this picture of Richard Swales in the shop, with stacks of hats, the short stack to the right of, and the one to the left of his head, the hats on top are bashed. Maybe the ones underneath are not.- But maybe they are. We could be looking at stacks of pre-bashed hats here. .... What is that, some kind of white steam machine in front of Richard? This is the only pic of Swales I have ever seen. I got it from a French Indy site that dropped off the web. In the foreground there's a bowler, a top hat on it's side in front of somethig that looks fairly Indy, that Swales is shaping.

They probably are stacks of pre-bashed hats.

They were still storing them and selling them that way when we went to the HJ shop a few years ago:

Thanks ob1al. ....... Now, here's another theory. (completely disregard that jagged oval drawn on the hat) .... Look at the middle mark on the ribbon. It looks like there might be a hole in the felt under the ribbon. What if, once the hat was turned, they still needed a chin strap, and they made a hole in the hat, in the location the grommet used to be?... Also interesting here, is the pinpoint highlight on the rearward mark. Something a small, round, standout metal grommet would be more likely to produce.