To Turn or not to Turn?

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:34 pm

Hello all,
I have finally taken the committed steps to getting my Adventurebilt Raiders, and I'm pretty sure I'm going for the "turned" brim. However, I was just wondering how the AB owners here feel about that feature (those who know what I'm talking about).

I'd like to hear from both sides, those who prefer the turned look and those who don't. If you have pictures to share of either version, I'd love to see them, and I'm interested in your reasons, be it about screen accuracy or something else.
Chewie

conceited_ape · Post by **conceited_ape** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:40 pm

It's since been proven that the only way to achieve a 'complete' Raiders look on your hat is to have it turned. Aside from obtaining the appropriate brim distortions, this is how to get the bow to sit where it needs to - just in front of the ear.
So yes, the turn is a must for the Ark fedora. Hope this helps.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:49 pm

I agree, the "turn" is a key element for the Raiders look. Wearing a hat turned feels kinda odd a a short while. However, the hat will quickly adapt and fit normally.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:59 pm

I also agree that the turn makes the Raiders Fedora what it is. The only case in which I would not suggest you get your hat turned is if its supposed to look like the opening scene. But for every other scene its essential, especially the streets of cairo. :junior: -IJ

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:20 pm

I also want to add that the turn helps to get the so wanted stright sided effect!

Kilgour Trout · Post by **Kilgour Trout** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:06 pm

I'm going to sound weird but
"Turn Only" if you've got a flat spot on the back of your head
otherwise....I find the brim just plain "Wonky" with the turn.
I say make the hat suit you and you alone but if its absolute accuracy you need to be happy then I'll accept that.

Just my two cents...

Kilgour Trout

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:38 pm

Turn! Turn! Turn!

This might be the song for COW!

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:18 pm

Kilgour Trout wrote:I'm going to sound weird but
"Turn Only" if you've got a flat spot on the back of your head
otherwise....I find the brim just plain "Wonky" with the turn.
I say make the hat suit you and you alone but if its absolute accuracy you need to be happy then I'll accept that.

Just my two cents...

Kilgour Trout

Since you seem to be the "stand out" opinion, I'd be curious to see pictures unturned, if you have any...
Chewie

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:51 am

I don't have an AB yet (should be here in 2 weeks) but I will not turn it. My Akubra Fed (in the Avatar) is not turned either, but I got a nice swoop all the same.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:24 am

The turn requires maintenence. You have to poke and push at it in a mirror at all times. Ford was always massaging his into shape between shots. It looks great when set into shape perfectly, but it should be hot glued in place permanently somehow, to be really enjoyable.

Kilgour Trout · Post by **Kilgour Trout** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:55 am

Hey Chewie: I'll see what I can do this weekend. I'm going to take a few shot of the Ole Grey LC AB I've got aswell.

So, I'll post soon

Warm Regards
Kilgour Trout

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:04 am

Ahh, go ahead and turn it. It will look great, and with an AB, you will never notice it while wearing the hat. It just molds to your head. Steve told me that I wouldn't notice the turn, and it was hard to believe, but true.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:10 am

3thoubucks wrote:The turn requires maintenence. You have to poke and push at it in a mirror at all times. Ford was always massaging his into shape between shots. It looks great when set into shape perfectly, but it should be hot glued in place permanently somehow, to be really enjoyable.

I think this depends on the felt your hat is made of. I don't have to mess around with my rabbit AB at all. In fact I've found quite the opposite. The more I wear the hat the more dramatic and accurate the look becomes. The only thing I'll do is occasonally work a little curl into the brim.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:14 pm

Yeah, some hats hold the shape, some hats don't.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:57 pm

A Raiders fedora without the turn is just another fedora. The turn defines the look. Fedora

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:07 am

Don’t stone me but I think the turn is the silliest THEARY I have heard to date. Mine AB came turned because I did not specify and I had to reblock it so it didn’t look like I slaped it on my head while drunk. One good turn deserves another so once I got it that’s just what I did. I love the AB and when I order another for deress wear IT WILL NOT be turned.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:49 pm

A bold statement my friend but the turn really does replicate the look of raiders fedora brim flawlessly as evidenced by the hundreds of pictures posted already. You can have just a good looking indyesque hat with no turn or the definative raiders look with the turn. The only truly plausible way to replicate that screen accuracy is with the turn. Interestingly enough, having an long oval shaped head myself, all types of hats naturally turn on my head with time. It's the weirdest thing but happens naturally after a few months or so and I dont have an alien shaped head or anything. That the turn was intentional or a natural occurance is debatable but the fact that it exists I dont think can be denied.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:59 pm

Fletch, you make a point that been made many times, but folks just don't seem to grasp it.....I, too, have a long oval head. When you pull a standard round shaped hat on our head shapes, the hat naturally 'warps' to turn slightly one way or the other. To have one come to me already 'turned', ESPECIALLY if it's NOT a long oval shape hat, puts the ribbon almost on the front of the hat when worn.

If I order a long oval hat for my long oval head and want the ribbon to move forward, then and ONLY then would this 'turn' work for me...otherwise, it's a moot point. The turn happens naturally, as well as the sought after brim 'swoop' everyone trys to create.

Personally, I've found wearing the 'round' hat on my oval head is uncomfortable. I'd rather be comfortable than 'screen accurate' at my age.

Regards! Michaelson

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:45 pm

Knower of things, I know exactly what you mean. Consequently I look like a complete dork in a ballcap (can I say ballcap here

) because the dang things are always moving over to the right on me. With Steve's advice I ordered my AB in long oval to avoid that uncomfortable pinching from front to back and the gaps on the side that I get with all of my other round leather sweatbanded hats but will have some turn in there also to get the look. Steve tells me that you can do so without any uncomfortability. I have yet to receive it but everyone else says that you can hardly notice the turn when you wear it with the AB. Like you I prefer comfort over a torturous application to acheive the ultimate in screen accuracy. We will see how it works out. I also really liked the symetrical brim look of Fedora's old avatar. That was a sharp looking lid! Really classy in an everyday sort of way.
Long heads unite

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:57 pm

Fletch wrote:Long heads unite

Amen!!!

HIGH regards!

Michaelson

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:54 pm

Alright alright - Fair enough that a hat on a long oval may turn I would not know I am a round oval and my lids stay put Natural Raiders Swoop and all. But Harry did not wear just one lid in Raiders and having worked wardrobe it is unlikeley that the costumer said "Ya know this looks better if we block it with a turn lets do it to all of the hats. The cocked look you all speak of is not the scene by scene look but rather issolated scenes in the film and not even consistant in those few scenes. There are times his lip looks downright semetrical - right off the block so to say the offset and swoop is The Raiders Hat is not correct. It is "A" Raiders hat and if yo like that look than it might be right for you. I got it out of ignorance being told it's definitive ROTLA and when I got it I my heart sunk. Like I said I have rebloked and rebashed my AB and TO ME..... Its what an indy hat should be....For Me. I have yet to see a turned lid that does not look like a cross-eyed hatter was spending too much time near the mucury shed.

Fletch · Post by **Fletch** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:14 pm

You know T.E. that's all that really matters. -That you have a hat that you like that reflects your appreciation for Indy's look and style. I didnt mean to bust you chops brother. I'm sure I wont look like Harry when I wear my hat but I hope that I am happy with the look when it comes. From what I've seen from everyone else I'm sure that I will be with some tweakin'. Cheers
Fletch

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:56 pm

Ironically, I've worked hard for years to get AWAY from the so called turned look that a round hat does on my long oval head....so go figure!

Regards! Michaelson

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:09 am

My writing skills must be off if I came across as put off by this thread. Forgive the curtness. As many of us fans are, I am passionate and oppinionated and could learn from restraint of tongue and pen. Thanks for your graciousness. And I am sure that a turned hat looks as good as any other if not better on the person who adopts that as their signiture.

Michaelson, that is ironic. I guess the hat is always browner on the other side.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:59 am

T.E. Lawrence wrote: Michaelson, that is ironic. I guess the hat is always browner on the other side.

That's why the hat I wear the most is.....an AB dark gray!

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:18 am

Are you sure it is not brown and you have some kind of special light that follows you around?

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:21 am

Nope. Dark gray is dark gray...in the light, in the dark, doesn't matter. (grins)

Regards! Michaelson

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:28 am

Stay out of the light!

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:29 am

Yep. Me and old Forrestal.

Regards!

Michaelson

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:13 pm

In re-reading this thread I have the urge to make it perfectly clear that My opinion on the turn has nothing to do with my opinion and HIGH PRAISE for Steve and his AB masterpieces. Not one day has gon by that I have not worn my AB lid ---- I will be ordering another when I can........ (No Turn Ofcourse...Hehehe)

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:37 pm

Well, I have to say the discussion on this has been fun to follow. I see that the "turned" fans are in the majority, but those who prefer "unturned" have excellent points. I don't think I have a long oval head... maybe a medium oval?

Seriously, though, my regular hats don't turn on their own, although I tend to put them on my head at a slightly jaunty off-center angle, anyway.

As for my decision, clearly turned is the way to go for the authentic Raiders look. At the moment, I want a distinctly Indy hat, so that's what I'm going to do. Perhaps, when the money comes my way, I'll order an "unturned" dress version. Maybe the gray that Indy wears at the end of Raiders! I always liked that one.

Anyhow, thanks for tossing this issue around... and please don't let me stop you, by any means!

Chewie

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:57 pm

Chewbacca Jones wrote:Perhaps, when the money comes my way, I'll order an "unturned" dress version. Maybe the gray that Indy wears at the end of Raiders! I always liked that one.

Chewie

Hey Chewie,

Right now, all I have is a brown AB. When I wear it with my navy blue suit, I make Mrs. Bufflehead walk behind me, shining a flashlight on my hat that makes it look gray. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Hey Steve, hurry up and send me my gray Raiders AB. Thank goodness for rechargable batteries.

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:02 pm

It's always a good topic, and everytime it comes up, I realize something new. I've been in the minority that NEVER understood folks need to produce the turn.....until I realized that the long oval head is what CAUSED a round oval hat to turn. ALL my hats did that, and when I was finally told what was going on by Joe Peters those many years ago, I realized that I needed to have hats made in long oval...and that eliminated the hat rotation.

Next thing I know, the 'turn theory' comes up, and everyone jumped on the bandwagon that the hat HAD to be turned. Well, not necessarily....and DEFINITELY not if Ford has a long oval head. We now know he does, and therefore that explains what we see in the 'turn'. So, for those who DON'T have a long oval head, the turn makes sense if you're wanting to duplicate the 'look'. For those of use who HAVE a long oval head...well, we DON'T want the hat turned as it makes the bow even FURTHER forward than it should be....and is really odd looking when the hat is made in the correct long oval shape. Why would I want THAT done when I can exactly duplicate the look by just ordering a standard round hat?

Anyway, it's been a complicated issue for those without the long oval head shape, and a simple one for those of us who see our standard round hats do this 'turn thing' everytime we pull on a hat. I have a classic Borsalino that 'turns' everytime I wear it, and the front dents sit slightly to the side as well. It EXACTLY duplicates some of the shots from Raiders. I think it was even Dakota who PM'd me once when seeing me wearing this hat in the PB shop photo that ITG posted a while back, asking me if I had the hat 'turned' for the photo. Uh, no. That's just what they do!

Like I said, always an interesting study.....

Regards! Michaelson

T.E. Lawrence · Post by **T.E. Lawrence** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:40 am

Michaelson, Thanks for your perspective and experience and also for acknowledging the "Theorey" aspect as well as rightly mentioning the the "turn" only appears in some of the Raiders shots. I think the thought that there is a definitive Raiders hat is in the eyes of the beholder. Some like the opening Temple others like cairo - Heck some even prefer taper. Alas - Everybody wear your hats in good health.

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:35 am

I didn't discover the turn, but I may have been the first to illustrate it on my own hat here, and, I started a web site that probably did a lot to popularize it. ...Now, my cause is the channel in the right front dent that dissapears under the ribbon. As I discoverd yesterday, when done right, (BIG), a pleat in the felt that can reproduce this channel, also distorts the brim, increasing the front's snap down on the right side of the brim. I think I'm the only forum member who has brought up the channel in the last 4 years... I don't think anyone wants to deal with it... But, please read about it my latest topic-viewtopic.php?t=18179

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:07 am

3thoubucks wrote:I think I'm the only forum member who has brought up the channel in the last 4 years...

don't worry, there is someone else who's brought it up, VP will let ya know.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:43 am

Well, not necessarily....and DEFINITELY not if Ford has a long oval head. We now know he does, and therefore that explains what we see in the 'turn'. So, for those who DON'T have a long oval head, the turn makes sense if you're wanting to duplicate the 'look'. For those of use who HAVE a long oval head...well, we DON'T want the hat turned as it makes the bow even FURTHER forward than it should be....and is really odd looking when the hat is made in the correct long oval shape. Why would I want THAT done when I can exactly duplicate the look by just ordering a standard round hat?

Sorry to disagree with my friend, but PB told ya wrong. A long oval head in a long oval hat will give you the same results.(the spin) Remember, the brim warping comes from the opening of the hat being spun on the head. In your case, you would only have to spin the hat a wee bit to get the brim warp. On a regular oval head, inside a regular oval hat, the hat has to be spun more to get the distortion. I see this all of the time. I can do the turns at the shop, and do that most of the time. I noticed right away that I did not have to spin the long ovals much at all to get the brim warp.

Now the biggest problem is with hats like Gorak orders. He has a round head. If he spins a reg oval blocked hat, he does not get the warped brim. Even if he spins a round oval hat he would not get as much warp, because his head shape is not changing the shape of the hat at the sweat area.

You may have the swoop confused with the warp. You can take a hat and pull the sweat fore and aft and get the swoop. But the brim distortion requires the original blocked opening of the hat to be moved off center. When you move an oval head or a long oval head inside the hat, one way of the other, the brim warps. If you were to put a long oval head inside a regular oval hat, you would get front and back taper, because the length of a reg oval hat is shorter than a long oval head. So, the head presses on the front and back, pulling the original block shape out of kilter, and this is normally seen as a slight taper on the front and back. This is assuming the hat is a soft felt and not western felt. In that case, you would just get a headache because the stiffener will not allow the hat to distort, that is, the felt does not "give".

Since I have never seen you with a warped brim, I know your hats are not turned, regardless of what PB told ya. In your case, if you received a long oval hat(like the one I am making you) if you wanted the Raiders brim, you would still have to spin the hat a bit to get it. Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:49 am

I think I'm the only forum member who has brought up the channel in the last 4 years... I don't think anyone wants to deal with it...

Speaking only for myself, the reason I do not pay much attention to it is because with the right felt, you do not need the stitches. You can do it with your fingers, or by tightening the ribbon. Only when you work with the wrong type of felt do you have to go to extremes as you have done. Of course, I realize that if your forhead is not slanted like Ford's this channel would just push out when you pull the hat on your head. His slanted forehead allowed this indentation to remain in place.

But, 3M$ has a great idea for those they do not have the Ford shaped forhead. And and perhaps the only way to nail this channel so that it stays permanent. Fedora

inexpensive_jones · Post by **inexpensive_jones** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:25 am

I don't get it. I tried turning my hat and got the goofiest looking brim ever. (The drunken look T.E. spoke of). Not only that, but since my brim is dimensionally cut, the turn puts the wider brims on the sides and the narrow ones in front and back. I know my brim isn't as accurate as I'd personally like it, but what can I do? Is it my head or my hat?

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:55 am

It sounds like you turned your hat too far. It is supposed to have a dimensional cut on the brim. Try turning it in a small increment like an inch.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:42 am

I tried turning my hat and got the goofiest looking brim ever. (The drunken look T.E. spoke of).

I have never heard of the warped Raider's brim as being drunken.

And, I have never seen anyone here wearing a hat with the distorted Raiders brim without it being turned. If you are claiming you can put the hat on straight, long oval head or not, and get the warped brim, you just gotta post pics.(I am from Missouri, so show me

) Stretching the hat fore and aft will not give you the warp. It can give you the swoop, but not the warp.

If anyone is after the true Raiders look(with the exception of the pre-temple hat) you must turn the hat. There is more to the total look than just the straight sides and tight front pinch. The turn, gives the hat "attitude". Otherwise you are wearing a hybrid. A Raiders/TOD/LC fedora. Nothing wrong with it, but you are missing a key element in what we generally consider to be the Raiders fedora. Regards, Fedora

Indiana Blooze · Post by **Indiana Blooze** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:46 pm

Fedora Wrote:

When you move an oval head or a long oval head inside the hat, one way of the other, the brim warps. If you were to put a long oval head inside a regular oval hat, you would get front and back taper, because the length of a reg oval hat is shorter than a long oval head. So, the head presses on the front and back, pulling the original block shape out of kilter, and this is normally seen as a slight taper on the front and back.

OK, that being said, what happens if you put a regular or round oval head in a long oval hat. I would imagine that this would give some side taper, due to the hat being narrower than the head, but how would the brim/turn issue play out.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:28 pm

OK, that being said, what happens if you put a regular or round oval head in a long oval hat.

Yeah that is what happens. The sides of the head would push out the sides of the hat, with the round oval head presenting the most noticable side taper. There would be some front and back reverse taper happening at this time. What would happen if you spun a long oval hat on a round oval head? To be honest, I have never tried this and can't say personally what the brim would look like if you spun the hat. I tried some weird things when I was trying to make Gorak his fedora, but in the opposite direction. His head is wider than it is long. Now, try to make a hat that would give you the Raiders brim distortion on a head of this shape. I don't want to bore you with the details here, but in the end, it was almost impossible to do it. Of course, a heavily shimmed hat, front and back would pull it off, like Optimo did for Sergei, but Gorak did not want to resort to this. This could be done, without the shims, but it would require the strangest looking hat block you have ever seen. The bottom half of the block would have to be one oval, while the top would have to be another, different oval. I can imagine in my mind's eye exactly what it would look like, but making one would be a pain in the rump. But, it could be done. Fedora

To Turn or not to Turn?

To Turn or not to Turn?

Hmmm....

Re: Hmmm....

ASap