Raiders crown height, how tall was it?

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu May 11, 2006 9:18 pm

David Garrison sent this to me. He is good at this sort of thing and shares with me what he comes up with. This is one of Marc's hats, and David somehow transposed it on top of Indy's hat. I just wondered what the various thoughts were in regards to this pic. How much back taper was actually on Indy's hat? Marc's seems to have alot more. Mine as well when I use the straight blocks. What about the crown height? Imagine Marc's hat being dropped down in the front to match Indy's as to get a better idea. To me, Indy hat is shorter. How much?? I am asking you guys. The brims seem to be the same length, the ribbon matches up. But look at that back taper. Notice that the very bottom of both hats, at the bottom of the ribbon match up, as well as the front, down low. What happens as both hats move up toward the top? I find this comaparions intensely interesting. Now, I think Marc's hat are around 5 1/8 tall on the sides, but will have to measure the one of his I have in the shop. If so, then what do you think Indy's hat crown height was in this pic?? I have always said, we, me included, tend to caracature the hat, in reverse taper, and especially crown height. When I first stared selling hats, I always make them 5 3/4 tall, open crown. Once I started seeing pics here of guys in my hats, I always thought, wow, too tall!! So, I dropped the default hat down to 5 1/2 and since that time, they look more accurate. Anyways, check this out. Amazing.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu May 11, 2006 9:29 pm

Wow, that is interesting indeed!

Its one of those the more I know the less I understand kind of thing.

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Thu May 11, 2006 10:42 pm

I must say that for much of the time I have been out here I thought that people were not pinching their hats low enough in the front. This photo seems to support that notion so far.

I would be cool to see this hat bashed differently and superimposed again.

And doesn't some of the back taper disappear as the hat settles into shape? A little bit? Sometimes?

After a couple more rains it might look perfect.

I would hate to have another hat that looks perfect when I get it and then too small and tapered after a couple (coughHJcough) rains.

Nice photo though!

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu May 11, 2006 10:55 pm

I'll tell you what Steve. Send the AB Deluxe to me and I give it a few months of field testing here in the mountains of WV. Who knows it might settle in perfect like Darth said.

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Thu May 11, 2006 11:06 pm

Ha! Cool proposal.

I can't wait to get my AB. It will certainly see some time in the elements. I hope to send in some cool pics as a little bit of wear helps it decide on a shape.

And don't get me wrong - we all know that an AB is not going "change" anything like an HJ. An AB "settles". An HJ "changes."

Texas Raider · Post by **Texas Raider** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:10 am

Maybe it is just a matter of Fords head shape? Maybe the top of his head is shorter than average. Meaning the distance from top of ear to top of head is quite short, allowing the extremely deep center dent, which shortens the crown, and changes the dimensions and angles of the front and back. I dunno. Marcs hat in this pic is definitely way to tall, though.

TR

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:26 am

Steve,

One question; is the AB deluxe in the photo being worn, or is that a shot from it sitting on a table? In any case, several people have observed that Ford's main hat in the desert scenes fit quite snugly, and that tends to alter the front/back taper.

Also, the Raiders hat shows major back tilt in the shots of it sitting on the table and the flying wing (I'm sure 3thou$ has these pics somewhere). Personally, I think the distortion in this profile is largely from the hat being a tight fit. Another thing I'm wondering about is whether the HJs for Raiders were blocked on a regular oval block; since you now know that Ford is a long oval, I suspect this may have caused a few of the strange features we see on screen...

As far as the height, it's hard to tell with the center crease that high. What I'd be curious to see is comparison pics with the crease lowered so that the front and back break points line up, with the AB down snugly on someone's noggin...I strongly suspect that you could get a nearly identical profile out of Marc's hat with a little fiddling.

If I figure out how to download pics maybe I'll put some photos of my own up here to show what I mean...

Antone

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:08 am

Let's say Ford wears a 7 1/4. ... But the Raiders hat was a 7 3/8 or 7 1/2 with a folded sweat and/or stuffing in the sweat. Now, let's say Marc's hat as shown above is a size 7 1/4 with a 5 3/4? inch open crown. If you superimposed a 7 1/2 size of Marc's hat instead of 7 1/4, still with a 5 3/4? inch open crown, the height would be shorter in relation to it's length, and the Raiders hat and Marc's would be closer in height. .... I showed you the increased front to back dome of my block a few weeks ago. I have since added even more front to back dome. The front pinch of the Raiders hat is only about 4 1/2 inches high after all. I thought I'd nailed the side profile, but the front profile was wrong. I had reverse taper in the sides, so I started rounding off the side corners of the block. .. I started to think I was making something like the Akubra Federation block. The Poet block is just too square edged all around, it seems to me, although it makes a handsome hat. .. So, my first Akubra Federation shipped last Monday from Katoomba! .. What if the Raiders block was, in fact, the Federation block, oversize, thick sweat, tightened ribbon- factors resolving the shape shortcomings it has otherwise? ---- Akubra seems to be the only felt hat maker left in Australia. Was that pretty much the case 25 years ago? Nadoolman said it was their (HJ's) Australian model. And, I don't know the whole story, but did Akubra design a new block with COW help, or just dig out an existing set of blocks? Akubra makes the Fed. If you could spot your own block in Raiders, Akubra probably could have. It seems the ancient history of COW was all about converted Akubras, maybe that should tell us something. I found these pics of Pyroxene in a Fed Deluxe with a Google Image search... oversized with a thick sweat, tightend ribbon, I think this could duplicate the Raiders hat. Hope my oversized Federation arrives tomorrow, or Monday! I'll fold the sweat, tighten the ribbon, put a pleat in the felt under the ribbon in the right hand front dent, turn it and see what I get! (After I sand It thinner!)-----

This is very close to the Marhalla hat.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:29 am

I haven't read all the thousands words written already... wow guys you're fast!

I just want to add a consideration from seeing the pictures. If i'm not wrong I remember that the kind user who sent you the lucas walkthrough, Steve, said that some of those hats (and I believe the ones used in cairo) were too small for harrison ford so they had to stretch them...

now my thought is... wouldn't a smaller size HJ hat have also a smaller crown? In this case it's explained why the cairo hat looks not as tall as in other scenes (shot in Elstree etc).

Thanks for considering my thought.

Regards

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:54 am

As far as the height, it's hard to tell with the center crease that high.

Yes, and also the angle the hats are being viewed is not the same. You can see underneath the front of the brim on Indy's hat, while you cannot on the AB. So the shot of the Indy hat is from a lower angle. This would affect the comarison of the heights. Marc's AB there has a 5 1/2 open crown height, and so does the HJ, IMO. I do not think anyone here assumes Indy's HJ was a short hat relatively speaking. But, it was not 6 inches tall either. I too would love a comparison of both of those hats, creased the same, shot from the same angle. I think they would be so close it would be uncanny. I guess my whole point revolves around the old cliche, of "figures don't lie, but liars can figure"

What you guys are looking at is what Marc and I have debated for years, offline. It can be a very confusing endeavor.

We have experimented with various domes, various straightness of the front and back, and sides and arrived at what we have now.

I am glad I pulled 3M$ out, as I knew he loves this stuff as much as I.

And there is no doubt in my mind, we will still be taking about the Raiders specs for years to come. That is the shortcomings of taking a picture, or film of a hat and trying to compare it to a 3 D version. I think one can draw the wrong conclusions, sometimes.

Now that I have everyone confused, I will mosey out and get some work done.

I just wanted to share the madness of hats, and how I have become a mad hatter. It can drive you nuts, if you let it.

Fedora

Bufflehead Jones · Post by **Bufflehead Jones** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:51 pm

Fedora wrote: I just wanted to share the madness of hats, and how I have become a mad hatter. It can drive you nuts, if you let it. Fedora

I didn't think anyone used mercury anymore.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:18 pm

If you superimposed a 7 1/2 size of Marc's hat instead of 7 1/4, still with a 5 3/4? inch open crown, the height would be shorter in relation to it's length, and the Raiders hat and Marc's would be closer in height. .... I showed you the increased front to back dome of my block a few weeks ago. I have since added even more front to back dome. The front pinch of the Raiders hat is only about 4 1/2 inches high after all. I thought I'd nailed the side profile, but the front profile was wrong. I had reverse taper in the sides, so I started rounding off the side corners of the block. .. I started to think I was making something like the Akubra Federation block. The Poet block is just too square edged all around, it seems to me, although it makes a handsome hat. .. So, my first Akubra Federation shipped last Monday from Katoomba! .. What if the Raiders block was, in fact, the Federation block, oversize, thick sweat, tightened ribbon- factors resolving the shape shortcomings it has otherwise? ---- Akubra seems to be the only felt hat maker left in Australia. Was that pretty much the case 25 years ago? Nadoolman said it was their (HJ's) Australian model. And, I don't know the whole story, but did Akubra design a new block with COW help, or just dig out an existing set of blocks?

I know you have theorie regarding that hat, and I know you have thought long and hard about this. But, I think, the truth of the matter is, that hat was fitted to Ford, as is the common practice, So, his hat is indeed a size 58. It was distressed, artificially and then got distressed from him sweating in it, and it problaby shrunk in spots and places the way rabbit felt tends to do. And most of those hats he wears in the film look new, blockwise, but dirty and knocked around. His hats do not look like a real rabbit hat worn out in the elements, rained on, etc for an extended period of time. If that would have been the case, his hat would have tapered like real hats do, in the real world. And we would not be pulling our hair out trying to maintain that look that was presented in the film. In the real world, Indy's hat would not have looked like his does in the film Yes, for awhile it would, but not for an extended period of time.

My experience with the Federation is it has too much dome on top. And this was a stock block used by Akubra, and one they had in house. Ron just went there trying to find the straightest block they had that would lend the look we were after. The Federation is a fine hat, but is suited better for the other two films rather than Raiders. At least that has been my personal experience, as I have owned probably a dozen of them, and have reblocked scores of others.

I personally feel that film hat was around 5 1/2 inches open crown. This normally lends, in my block shapes a 5 inch tall hat at the sides. I seriously doubt if the film hat was taller than this. But, that is a fairly tall fedora, when you take into account what the heights on modern dress hats are. Stetson does not make a dress hat today, in more than a 5 inch open crown height. It would crease down to 4 1/2 on the sides. Add 1/2 inch to that, and what you end up with would look like a tall hat. But it is relative. Most of the vintage dress hat blocks that I own run from 5 1/2 to 5 3/4 open crown. This was a very common height back years ago, prior to the crown heights dropping down in the 50's. So, common sense would tell us the Poet used fell into this category. Now, all you have to do is extend that ribbon up on the film hat and you come up, or at least I do, with a 5 1/2 open crown hat, creased to around 5 on the sides. What is left now, is what was the overall shape of this block. Well, from what I can tell it was a barrel looking hat once creased. The front pinch height was 4 3/4 inches. The back was 4 1/4. The sides were 5 inches. Now, the block has to have enough dome, so that when you creased it at the mentioned height, there was enough dome on top to give you the fairly deep top dent. But not so much dome that the dome actually gave you too much taper on the left and right top of the hat once the top crease was put in. I have had this happen when was experimenting with blocks. Too much dome, and the caracature arises, and throws off the look of the humps on top. The real truth of the matter is, if you can get the block shape close, the hat will look great. And, all you have to do is to get it close. The trouble has always been, our offerings were just not close enough, except some of the blocks Optimo used. Everyone else was way off base. Fedora

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Fri May 12, 2006 3:22 pm

Hi all,

It would take some extraordinary new evidence to convince me that HJ had some sort of secret block, extremely similar to the poet block we know they used in the early 80s but ever-so-slightly-different, which apparently was only used in the Raiders hat and no one has ever found an example of another hat from the same block since

This theory fails Occam's razor, especially since we know that differences in the turn, bash, felt, distressing process, head shape of the wearer, etc. can create enormous variations in the look of hats from the same block...

I think the old HJs you have Steve are clearly the same hat form that was used in Raiders, especially since I saw pics of another one here that had started to Cairo naturally, just because of the way it fit on the owners' head.

As I see it, there are only two questions on this subject: what conditions caused the Raiders hats to achieve the look they had and (to me the more important of the two questions) how can we get the same effects from modern hats, especially dense beaver felt?

Fedora wrote: I just wanted to share the madness of hats, and how I have become a mad hatter. It can drive you nuts, if you let it. Fedora

Well in that case, a very merry unbirthday to you!

So does that make Marc the March Hare of COW?

Antone

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:23 pm

Hi, Gang. Just want to correct something - and I'm sorry if I mispoke somewhere along the line: I never meant to state that the hats up at ILM were over or under-sized and then stretched and such. All of the HF IJ hats were 7 1/4. The other sizes were for stuntmen and such.

What Steve states in this thread fits VERY comfortably with the Raiders hat I saw in 84. And not only that, the hat I got in 84 (which said '83 under the sweatband for some reason) came open crown and, while I no longer have it, I recall the following:

It was noticeably tall with a somewhat "flat" top and the sides were almost straight up and down (i.e. all sides were just about parallel). That is all I remember but it fits perfectly with the hunches and such above.

I wish I still had it!!! But it did go through some serious shrinking later on.

The hats got "sloppy" in the mid-90's in the two main following ways according to Swales - the fur was lower quality and the crowns were shorter. He said that this was mainly the result of the fabricators cutting corners.

Like others here I have been assured by HJ that the original blocks are now in use but I have yet to acquire a hat and test this claim.

Looking more forward to my upcoming AB than to another HJ though.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:10 pm

Hi Darth,

Perhaps this is slightly off topic, but do you recall which crest the Raiders hat had in the liner? Oval, Pentagon, neither? Apologies if you have already addressed this elsewhere, but I didn't see any comments when I read through your older posts...

3thou-

That hat looks great! What hat did you make that one from? Is it blocked on your 360 stovepipe block?

In reading through my previous post, I think I come off harsher than intended. I love hearing your theories, they are always thought provoking even when I am not convinced they are necessarily the case.

Antone

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:52 pm

That hat looks great! What hat did you make that one from? Is it blocked on your 360 stovepipe block?

Neither. That is Pyro's hat, on Pyro's head. An old pic when Pyro was blocking his hats on a block he had made. Fedora

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:51 pm

Hi. I forget the exact shape of the crest inside but it was blue and gold.

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:06 pm

Thanks Darth! This has been another topic of debate here for some time as well, since you never actually see the lining in Raiders. I appreciate the info.

Antone

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Sun May 14, 2006 3:40 am

Are you sure Fedora? Pyro first turned his stock (apparently, from his description, here,) Fed Deluxe on Dec. 2 2003, viewtopic.php?t=5725&highlight= ,and I put the pictues on my site a couple days later- http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead. ... dHats.html Not the same block? ........ Here's Indy Doc's Poet (L) and Fed (R). .. Mask off the left side of each hat with your fingers, and only view the right halves. Maybe the increased side dome in the Fed makes it look shorter than a Poet?

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Sun May 14, 2006 7:04 am

Interestingly I was just watching an episode of Hollywood's greatest stunts featuring Vic Armstrong performing the jump onto the tank scene from IJ&TLC. Seeing pictures and video of HF and VA stood together you can see the huge differences in crown height and shape on VA's fedora to HF's.

Shape and size of head obviously reflect size of hat, and way it forms to the head. If HF and VA's head were the same I stil think both hats would be unalike in every way.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:05 am

As far as I know, in LC and TOD Vic Armstrong was wearing the fedora given to him on Raiders, so it had been through alot and had tapered and shrunk over time.
I believe it was MK who had the opportunity to see this hat in person.

Here's a pic of it from Raiders and you can see the different bash and apparent lower crown, which I think may be the result of the bash put in it.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Mon May 15, 2006 2:29 am

Most interesting!!!

Now, in order to defend myself

The hat shown in the picture (mine) was a size 8!!! A GIANT hat

And it did NOT have the Raiders ribbon, but a wider vintage ribbon that may distort the proportions a little as well (not much, but it may just have been enough).

So, to be fair, I'd prefer comparing apples with apples and that would be a 7 1/4" hat with the 39mm Raiders ribbon, preferable worn on Ford's head

Ok, I'm off to read the rest of this thread.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Mon May 15, 2006 8:30 am

Now, in order to defend myself The hat shown in the picture (mine) was a size 8!!! A GIANT hat And it did NOT have the Raiders ribbon, but a wider vintage ribbon that may distort the proportions a little as well (not much, but it may just have been enough).

Great!!! I thought that hat was that big'un you made. And, that would matter as well, especially the ribbon being wider. Fedora

rick5150 · Post by **rick5150** » Mon May 15, 2006 1:09 pm

The coolest thing about the SOC hat to me is the brim. Other than the difference in the crown which is more obvious in the superimposed picture, look at the brim curve. Much more exaggerated than the AB.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:27 am

...which is another thing that looks more screen accurate, if that little amout of stiffner is not suppose to hold up a 3 1/4" brim...

Don't get me wrong. I like to be as screen accurate as possible with my hats and I'm about as picky as it gets (I reckon some other hatters would gladly aggree to that), but I'd just rather see a hat in that actual size compared that way.

I'll see if I can take some pics of my own lid when worn... That's a 7 1/4" l.o., so that would make quite a difference IMO.

Regards,

Marc

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:25 am

3k, is that you in those pics you posted? The top half of your face looks a lot like pictures of Pyroxene that I've seen. Unless that is Pyro.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:41 am

Here is something that will blow your mind, and challenge our collective opinions of the Raiders crown height. Here is a quote from an email I just got from David Garrison, whom I have made several hats for.

I have read what you have worked from to get crown heights and how you and Marc have pulled information from photos and stated records. Follow me on this analysis, if you please. I have a photo program that has a measuring tool on it. I can drag a line across a photo and get a distance, I then use ratios to convert it to inches.

The Cairo profile 2 photo is an overlay of Mike hat(HJ) on top of Indy. I have matched to the ribbon width. I have assumed both are 1-1/2". You can see a crown height difference. When I measure these, I get Indy's crown height at the middle of the hat to be about 4.5". Mike's hat measures 4.9" which I'll call 5".
You can see that there is a definite difference in the distance from the top of the ribbon to the top of the crown.
Knowing that the Cairo hat has been abused, I also measured the Raven Bar hat (107 photo). It's crown measures 4.75 (4-3/4").
Oddly enough, The 1987 Poet photo, the crown height measures 4.75"(4-3/4").
Now, I know a photo can be inaccurate due to angles, distortions, etc., but I am trying to reach a proportion factor. The more I study behind the scene shots, the Cairo hat appears to have a definte lowered crown look. My guess as much as a 1/4". Maybe due to squashing, maybe a slightly lower crown all together.
Remember, this is all based on a 1-1/2" ribbon. Now if the ribbon is wider, all bets are off.
Food for though.

Now, it seems the Cairo hat had the ribbon slid up some, so pairing the ribbons up might account for this difference he is seeing. But, not so on Raven hat, where he is facing Marion in that famous pic. I have always been troubled by the distance from the top of the ribbon to the top of the crown, as it always looked to be shorter than what a 5 1/2 open crown would lend, but when you look at the overall picture of the crown height on Indy's head, it seemed to be taller than a 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 crown height.

Let me upload the pics he sent and I will edit them in here shortly.

Ok, 3M$, thoughts??? regards, Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:24 am

Sorry, but this thing just doesn't work IMHO. See, what happens if you try to match a reg. oval blocked hat to a long oval hat, it that it'll come out either too short or too high. Period!

Also: analyzes of SEVERAL vintage HJs that more than likely seemed to be blocked on THE block, were 5 1/2" open crown and not 5 1/4".

@David: would you mind making the same comparrison with the 7 1/4" long oval that Steve reviewed the other day? - I'm sure he could supply you with a picture taken from the right angle. This would give a valid comparrison between a replica and the original, but what we're doing here is comparing appless with oranges IMHO. Not to be rude, but since it's my hat that is trashed here, I must take a statement and to me it seems impossible that the Raiders Fedora was 5 1/4" or something like that. With that said, I'm open minded to new ideas, but then please do it right from the get go.

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:35 am

but since it's my hat that is trashed here, I must take a statement and to me it seems impossible that the Raiders Fedora was 5 1/4" or something like that.

Well, don't take this wrong Marc, as my hat is shown in the above photo. David is a surveyor with measurements his forte, and just was curious as to why these do not all work out. I am astounded as well, because, the overall appearance of the Raiders fedora just looks to be taller than 4 1/2 to 4 3/4 creased height. I have only made a couple of hats less than 5 on the sides, but were for smaller head sizes. What complicates matters, from a realistic standpoint is I have seen a few HJs with the less than 5 inch crown height. I always thought these were part and parcel of what Swales would send when an Indy fedora was ordered. I have seen HJs that were 5 1/2, open, 5 3/4 open and even a couple of 6 inch crowns that looked ridiculous. The good thing is, we can both make our hats whatever crown height we want. But, still, it is hard for me to accept a short Indy fedora, as it just does not look short in the overall picture. Now, to my mind, this is what a gear forum should be..........even if it makes us look off base in things such as crown height. I know the 5 3/4 open crown just looks too tall on most folks, but thought the 5 1/2 was dead on. I am wondering now, just how accurate and truthful these photo comparisons are..... I do not have the knowledge in this medium to make a call, one way or the other. Thoughts?? Fedora

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue May 16, 2006 12:26 pm

Ah, seems different pics, can be read differently. This one here shows the hat to be taller, rather than shorter. Thanks to TRA.

This would agree with what Marc and I arrived at and use. This one appears to be a new HJ, before distressing, either artificially, or naturally. One has to assume, Ford weaing that hat in the hot sun and sweating in it would cause it to shrink somewhat in various places. I have never seen a 4 3/4 inch creased crown on anyone that looked to be tall enough. And face it, a 2 7/8 by 2 3/4 brim on a 4 3/4 hat looks way out of proportion, at least to my eye. The crown comes across as squatty. Fedora

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:33 pm

To my mind that is the definitive picture from which all fedoras stand against. Thats the look i wish to recreate. If i pull it off 1/10th I'd be happy.

that_dog · Post by **that_dog** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:44 pm

Then you may be in luck. My Adventurebilt was almost a dead ringer for that shot, right out of the box.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue May 16, 2006 1:48 pm

Fedora wrote:

Excuse me Steve but everything matches. Try to reduce the wonderful admin HJ of 10% and you'll see it perfectly matches with the Cairo hat

PS what's the program that your friend uses to calculate distances on images?

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:14 pm

Good to know that_dog.....now how to get a screen accurate body hmmmmmmm

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:17 pm

Fedora wrote:

The trouble with using this shot is the consensus that the center dent is pushed out in this pose, giving a false shape.

So in all actuallity Steve, this is probably as close as you are going to get to seeing this hat as open crowned based on the being one of the first scenes shot and the hat not being overly distressed yet.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:30 pm

Is yours pushed out for your pic on your avatar?

Fedoraman · Post by **Fedoraman** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:41 pm

Harrison_Davies wrote:Is yours pushed out for your pic on your avatar?

Nope.

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:47 pm

Oh just thought since yours looks kinda the same...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:49 pm

The trouble with using this shot is the consensus that the center dent is pushed out in this pose, giving a false shape.

Right, and this was noticed as he was about to enter the temple, the creases were pushed up higher, front and back. But, that should not change the side crown height, only the front and back. I am gonna shoot David some pics of a 7 1/4 long oval AB Deluxe and perhaps the one I have here for our Administrator that I just resized.

Erri, I have no clue what program he used for the measurements, but I do know the 39 mm ribbon is what he used as the "given" dimension. Hey, I love this stuff, and could discuss it all day long, if I had the time.

And, it is gonna take lots of persuading to get me to think the hat was shorter than a 5 1/2 open crown hat. One reason is what I have seen from HJ, and the other is most old block shapes were taller rather than shorter. I have never seen a vintage block intended for a felt hat that was shorter than 5 1/2. Taller yes, but so far I have seen non shorter. Regards, Fedora

Harrison_Davies · Post by **Harrison_Davies** » Tue May 16, 2006 2:52 pm

"I didn't know you could wear a Fedora!"

"Tall? Yes! Short? No!"

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Tue May 16, 2006 4:26 pm

Harrison_Davies wrote:"I didn't know you could wear a Fedora!"

"Tall? Yes! Short? No!"

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:41 pm

Ok, my friend David labored over these here. I took pics of Marc's AB Deluxe and also my own AB, and David did the ghost imaging, comparing the two, with the Monkey bar fedora. Drumroll...................here is Marc's.

And here is my own.

Not bad, IMHO. If I would have dropped down both fronts pinches a tad more, it would have been better. Both hats are the same size as Fords. Apples to apples here.

David also did the height analysis on the Smithsonian hat, and the exterior temple hat that appears to be taller. Both come in at 5 inches. Regards, Fedora

Dakota Ellison · Post by **Dakota Ellison** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:03 pm

So in all actuallity Steve, this is probably as close as you are going to get to seeing this hat as open crowned based on the being one of the first scenes shot and the hat not being overly distressed yet.

Actually, this is from the Hawaii shoot, the last scenes shot in the movie, so this is not the hat used in England and Tunis. You're probably right about the front of the center dent being pushed up.

darthjones · Post by **darthjones** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:14 pm

Wow! Sweet photo work. I was going to say that the ghost imaging above some posts above had hats that were not matched in size before being superimpozed but you've certainly corrected that!

Man, I can't wait to get my AB. Tick-tok-tick-tok

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:03 am

Ahhhhhhhh!!!!! I KNEW we were right

It was fun discussing this stuff yesterday with you for half an hour on the phone nontheless Steve

Thanks for comparing apples to apples!

Regards,

Marc

Antone · Post by **Antone** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:42 am

Geez guys, you realize you've just killed one of the main points of conversation in this forum; what are we going to argue about now?

Seriously though, great work on the superimposed images, and greatest of thanks to both Steve and Marc for being so obsessive and meticulous in reconstructing the block shape, for all of our benefit. Once again, well done guys!

Antone

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:38 am

I got my my new 1 1/2 sizes too big Federation yesterday. (I'm pumped, because with an ultra thick sweat, and tightened ribbon, I think I'll get SWEET results). There doesn't seem to be a huge difference between the popular Indy blocks. The Fed, Miller, PBBM, and AB. My Federation has a 6 inch open crown, but perhaps a little more taper everywhere, and more front to back dome than an AB. It creases nicely to a 4 5/8 front pinch, 5 1/8 sides. I get a (deep) 1 inch deep (deep) top dent depth. So yours and Marc's hats match the 120 degrees in the desert shrunken Marhalla hat? But not the as new Raven hat? ... I'd like to see the photos you worked from... are you guys wearing the hats?

You know, it seems like only yesterday I saw the first cow superimposition, (with a 6 inch open crown hat)... J

... deep...

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Wed May 17, 2006 11:03 am

That last frame is elongated. Makes the hat appear way taller than it is. I think that may be your problem. You are trying to copy film distortion.

I hear you can pull that off, with folded sweats, wires in brims, etc. 3m$, seriously now, do you really think they took a hat way too large for Ford, and then make his hat from this? Or, is this the only way you can pull off the look you think is there? Does anyone else think that Ford was not fitted with his hats, for all 3 films? I need to change my avatar to one showing the Twilight Zone. I sometimes get that feeling when reading posts here.

Fedora

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Wed May 17, 2006 11:08 am

Fedora wrote:Does anyone else think that Ford was not fitted with his hats, for all 3 films? I need to change my avatar to one showing the Twilight Zone. I sometimes get that feeling when reading posts here. Fedora

Try mine Steve

3thoubucks · Post by **3thoubucks** » Wed May 17, 2006 12:45 pm

I recaptured and replaced the image. (recently I adjusted my settings to capture properly, and that was an old pic I had handy at 2 a.m.

) Still looks very deep? Yesterday I took pics of my Federation before I ever bashed it, and I just compared the side profile in the camera with a pic of a new open crown AB. Just about no difference, a little more taper in the front and back in the Fed. At this point, I have no issues with your block. My 360 stovepipe rantings were wrong. But I think I've got the oversized thing right. / As far as the fittings go, if you put stuffing in the sweat of a too large hat- it fits. I just remembered- My Fed came with a 25 inch long quarter inch thick strip of foam for sweatband stuffing! / Congrats on the Marhalla match, very impressive!