Question Regarding Herbert Johnson Fedora

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:50 am

Hello,

New here. Just had a question. I saw a site that was a retailer for Herbert Johnson Fedora's and I was reading that it will get ruined if it gets wet, rained on etc. Since this is a "Fine/Formal Dress Hat", I found it strange. What if you wear it out for a nice evening and it starts pouring? Is it then destroyed? I already know about how the hat material is affected, but ruined if wet? I asked about it and got a response about how water can really damage it and what you can do to prevent it. Can anyone further elaborate? It seems that wearing the hat and have it start raining would be a normal circumstance out of doors, especially if I were to go "adventuring"... Do you just never wear it out of doors, watch the skies, check the weather, keep it in a glass case?

Any extra info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Mike

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:59 am

Fedora is the man that can really answer your questions. I'm sure he'll pop in soon.

From the felt hats I've delt with rain has had little effect. However, if you get a hat soaked it coud taper. The amount of taper really depends on the quality of the felt. The lower the quality of the felt the more likely that rain will ruin the hat. However, a hat made out of high quality felt like the AB can really take a beating.

Welcome to COW!

Kaleponi Craig · Post by **Kaleponi Craig** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:15 pm

Maybe it's because the HB is made out of an inferior fur felt, certainly not 100% beaver like the Adventurebilt. It is pouring here in the SF Bay Area today and I will be wearing my Adventurebilt without any hesitation...KC

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:17 pm

HJ's are mostly rabbit fur felt too, so that's why they taper like they do. No, you don't have to go diving under a car if a shower comes up. Use the hat for what it is....a head covering. Just be prepared for the taper should you get into a 'frog strangler'. The denser the felt, the better your chances of the hat fighting against it's normal tendency to return to it's original cone shape. It will just require reblocking...but it's not going to fall apart. It's not a shower cap either! It's just the old 'common sense' that needs to determine what can be 'to much rain'.

I wore a standard Akubra Federation in a 2 day downpour while helping one my daughters move, and the hat soaked clear through the lining. Once it completely dried, no taper what so ever, and IT'S rabbit fur...but then I had a Miller that had this happen, and it turned into a dunce cap within hours.....it's just how well the felt is felted, and how dense the felt is that will determine the outcome.

Regards! Michaelson

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:35 pm

Yeah, it just depends upon the felt, but mostly how it was made in the factory. All felts are not created equal. Much of the rabbit felt that is made nowadays is pretty porous stuff, not a very tight felt. And that goes for the blends as well, but you can still get decent rabbit felt, if you look. Personally, I do not like rabbit felt, because there is finer felt to be had. The cheapest priced felt from any feltmaker is always the rabbit, then the blends, and finally at the top is the pure beaver. For instance, you can buy rabbit bodies from some felters for less than 10 bucks per body, and I have seen some that sold for 4 bucks. You buy a pure beaver body from the same source and it may cost you over a hundred bucks. There is a reason for the price differential. Fedora

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:40 pm

....and since an inferior felt is used - which was obtained for a lower price - why bother with the right treatment. It's just a disposable hat anyway, so they'll be dry blocked

, the sweatbands whiped in with a sewing maschine with so small stitches that it would perforate even a high quality felt and finally the liner is glued into the crown (wonder when they start to glue on the ribbon though

).

It's like with expensive shoes: the leather might just cost 100 bucks more, while the final product is 500 bucks more. Why? - Well simply because it was treated better / with more time...

Regards,

Marc

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:53 pm

and since an inferior felt is used - which was obtained for a lower price - why bother with the right treatment. It's just a disposable hat anyway, so they'll be dry blocked ,

Have you seen what some folks get for those disposable hats?!!!!!!!! I have seen high content rabbit blends go for several hundred dollars a hat. Wait, I am getting too close to a rant. Ok, I promised myself not to rant anymore, since I am a vendor now, but...........it just seems criminal to me to take a 5 dollar hat body, add a 3 dollar sweat, a 2 dollar liner and a 48 cent ribbon, and then sell the hat for 400 bucks!! Marc, if these same companies used those super high quality parts and felt like you plan to do, they would have to get 1 grand for the hats, if they kept their same margins. Ok, I will hush. Fedora

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:04 pm

Fedora, You don't have to rant, I will for you!

I frequently visit the factory of Biltmore Hats, which is located in my town of Guelph. They have the Biltmore hats in retail stores all over the GTA, but the prices they charge are often 200 dollars plus. The outlet store at the factory is really the only place to to get a Biltmore hat where you'll pay even CLOSE to a fair price. The quality of the hats is just not there.

Now, I speak of their fedoras only--they also make Western hats and they are wonderful. I turned a cowboy hat into a Pirate tricorn and gave it the proper swashbuckling treatment--full soakings, capsized "ships" (Okay, so it was a canoe) as well as swimming in it regularily, and it stood up fine-definatley worth the 30 bucks or so that I paid for it, and I would imagine paying as much as 150 if you wanted it to for an actual Western hat. However, charging literally hundreds of dollars for a very poor quality fedora is ludicrous--most of them don't even have liners!!

Cheers
Craig

Note: all of the above prices were in Canadian dollars.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:34 pm

Wow, lots of good info. I guess I don't have to panic in a drizzle if I decide to go for it. Thank you very much!

Michael

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:41 pm

Oh, go ahead and panic if you want....just not over your hat. (grins)

High regards! Michaelson

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:52 pm

Yeah, hats were meant to be worn. I usually wear my hat instead of using an umbrella. They've held up just fine, really. I find the vintage hats seem to put up with the abuse better than some of the newer ones. They just seem to resist taper better, though there have been theories about the felt and the ageing of it.

bink

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:44 pm

frequently visit the factory of Biltmore Hats, which is located in my town of Guelph. They have the Biltmore hats in retail stores all over the GTA, but the prices they charge are often 200 dollars plus. The outlet store at the factory is really the only place to to get a Biltmore hat where you'll pay even CLOSE to a fair price. The quality of the hats is just not there.

Yes, but I hear that Biltmore makes some really fine, and great pure beaver bodies. Never have seen one, but that is just what I hear. They may be doing a private label on them for another hatter(s) who gets 6 to 7 hundred bucks for the hat. Biltmore has the capability of producing really great felt!! Fedora

Farnham54 · Post by **Farnham54** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:52 pm

Steve,

You are absolutley right--I should clarify. The Western hats in the outlet store are wonderful, but the Fedoras they have are all their rabbit or rabbit blend (i'm not sure). I've been told the Western hats i was looking at are beaver, as was my Cowboy hat-come-pirate-tricorn (Kind of a shame that I went swimming in a potentially 750 dollar hat!!). I thought I'd clarify that; as I wouldn't want one of the few hat 'factories' left in the world to have a bad rep!

I really wish they would get some of the beaver feds in the outlet shop, though. Maybe Jerry can pull a "QM-Security-Guard-saw-nothing-of-eric-and-craig-and-holly-walking by" and convince them

. If they do get them, i'll pick one up and let you guys know!

Cheers
Craig

nicmusto · Post by **nicmusto** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:46 pm

Been away awhile, so sorry if this seems a bit late in the day- I have a newish HJ and living in England have been out in all weathers. I do have a little taper but it is easy to cope with. If the hat has been out in the rain, when you get back inside just pop up the crown and let it dry naturaly at room temp. Once nice and dry re-bash and it's good as new. Please don't treat these hats like dress hats, because that's just what we're not about- lit the hat live alittle.
If I don't post again, I'd like to wish you all a Happy Christmas and a peaceful New year to you and your families.
Nic

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:24 pm

The hat won't be "ruined" per se, but the only Indy hat it will look like after getting caught in a downpour is the Temple of Doom plane scene hat.

Felt hat bodies start as a cone shape before they are blocked, shaped ("bashed"), and have their liners/sweatbands added. One run of similar felt can be slightly different from another, but for the most part, they are the same.

Since the original shape of the hat was a cone before it was blocked and bashed, the hat "remembers" this shape as it's "original" shape, if you will. Blocking and bashing the hat are just ways of convincing it to stay in that shape, as opposed to reverting to it's original shape (the cone). Things like felt stiffener can help to keep the hat from reverting.

However, because the hat body is soaked (I believe) before it is blocked, getting soaked again (as it would in a downpour) after it has dried, tends to make the hat's shape relax, and revert back to its original cone shape, as it came before it was blocked and bashed. This is called taper.

Long story short, getting a Herbie J soaked won't ruin it, but it will make it look like a sub par Raiders lid.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:00 pm

I know the "hats in the rain" topic has caused much discussion here, but I think I must chime in.

I put up that disclaimer because I have answered endless e-mails asking if you can wear the HJ's in the rain. I had to take back one hat because the gent had worn it in the rain, the had had ever-so-slightly gone out of shape. You must understand, the hat was not "ruined" in the opinion of most people. But to him (as to most people reading this forum) it was "ruined".

I look at hats like shoes or cars - you have different uses for different models, and values that differ. Although a "shoe" is to cover the foot, don't expect your Gucci loafer to withstand rock climbing. Sure, they might cost hundreds of dollars, but that does't mean that they are for rock climbing. The value of the HJ is in the name brand and the history associated with it - not because it is the finest hat or the toughest hat or the best looking hat. It's the NAME.

Rabbit felt isn't the best for rain use, especially if you're going to be very picky about the shape. I will start a new thread on rabbit felt because I got some interesting info on that lately.

michaelb · Post by **michaelb** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:14 pm

Very useful info. I guess this is what I was looking for. Like driving my little Miata during New England winters... Not a good idea... (Should have thought of that before I purchased it, but now I know). Still makes for a fun sledding experience on the way to work.

("If adventure has a name... Miata!")

Thanks!

Michael B

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:33 pm

michaelb wrote:Very useful info. I guess this is what I was looking for. Like driving my little Miata during New England winters... Not a good idea... (Should have thought of that before I purchased it, but now I know). Still makes for a fun sledding experience on the way to work.

("If adventure has a name... Miata!")

Thanks!

Michael B

I have one of those too, Mk 1 Eunos, lulls you into a false sense of security with it amazing handling... until you fiirst floor it on a slippy turn. Boy was that exciting! Now I just do it occasionally for fun!