Raiders whip used in the movie!!!

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:13 am

Hey Everybody,

I'm so excited I can't hold it in any longer!!!..........

I talked to Mark Allen last week and he told me that he's gonna be auctioning off some Big Whips coming up. One of them is a 64 plait, 2-tone stockwhip that I believe Bernie made, that is very fancy and evidently was in the collection of Alex Green for some time. I don't remember all the facts about who has cracked it, or what he has used it for. It is up on ebay right now, if you search whip and have the search bring up highest prices first it should be close to the top.

I believe there is another whip that will be put up sometime soon that was used by some other stars and what not, but I can't remember. And the reason I can't remember is because of the next one....

The whip that Sergei did a whole post with pictures on, A David Morgan Indiana Jones Whip that Was Used In the Raiders Movie!!!

Here's the link to the post with pictures that Sergei did:

http://www.indygear.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1796

I have to brag here for just a minute, this past year at the WWAC convention in Vegas, I was privaleged to have the oppurtunity to actually see and touch, in person, this historically AWESOME whip. (I didn't get to crack it though

, hahahha) . It looks even awesomer(?) in person than it does in the pictures!!! And I will always remember that moment. Thank you mark!!! I wish I would have had my camera on me though.

Mark Said that a portion of the money from it will be donated to the Wild West Museum, I believe it was. Sorry I'm forgetting a bunch of the important info here.

Now I just wish I had a bunch of money saved up. I just hope it goes to a really good home, or that I win the lottery in the next couple days.

I'm gonna have to settle down here. If I remember more stuff than I'll post it.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:50 am

So he is selling via auction the Raiders whip? On eBay?

Wow... I wish him best. This time of year is not a good time to sell on eBay. But of course people with that kind of discretionary spending are not affected by the holidays.

-S

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:15 pm

Time to see who can dig deep. I don't think there will ever be another chance like this.

Who knows maybe everyone will be out of cash after the holidays and a punter like me could get a shot.............

Anyway my ebay tag is Dtowncollector

Bill Walton

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:18 pm

So, I gotta ask. Has he been putting leather dressing on it? The whip's probably 25 years old or so. Should be crackable if it's been taken care of.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:00 pm

Sergei wrote:So he is selling via auction the Raiders whip? On eBay?

Wow... I wish him best. This time of year is not a good time to sell on eBay. But of course people with that kind of discretionary spending are not affected by the holidays.

-S

Yep, and it looks like there's even a pic depicting your "Whip Tale" story. $40,000 to start it off.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:37 pm

Wow, I didn't know anything about the auction. I wish I get a least a steak dinner out this.

)

If you want to check it out. Do the search using the key word, and show the results with the highest amount. Read the whole description. The photos are quite extensive. You should then see the print out from the article I posted here on COW.
-Sergei

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:34 pm

$40,000.00? Awhile back I heard he wanteed $30,000.00 for it. Son of a #####, that's greedy. Especially considering he got it for a song and dance, and no one knows for sure if it ever made it to the big screen. What I got a kick out of was the $200 for expert packing charge.

To answer my previous question; looking at the fall, I'd say this whip hasn't seen dressing in quite some time, however long Mark has had it. I guess that would be about 11 years? Assuming Faye dressed it before it left her hands. But speculating on whether in was in her trunk, or a box in her garage, I doubt it.

For perspective, I could buy 71 new eight foot bullwhips at David's current prices, and still have a couple of hundred left over for accessories and supplies.

But, all the above is just my opinion, and worth anything only to me.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:02 pm

Yeah, that $200 shipping... outrageous. For $40,000 I could get about 4 sets of screen accurate gear.

That's a lot of money, and I'm sorry, but it's just a whip - there are more important things, and I don't mean other pieces of gear.

In Christ,
Shane

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:07 pm

Just did some quick math...

$40,200 is equal to...
about 140 Westeds, OR
about 145 whips by Paul Stenhouse, in 8' 12 plait, OR
about 150 pairs of Aldens, OR
about 175 Herbert Johnson fedoras from Todd's Costumes

Just thought that might interest you guys.

In Christ,
Shane

Rumpled Fedora · Post by **Rumpled Fedora** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:40 pm

Well there's some real food for thought.
I wonder what the final bid will be.

Jordan · Post by **Jordan** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:36 pm

Rumpled Fedora wrote:Well there's some real food for thought.
I wonder what the final bid will be.

I would be really surprised to see someone front the $40K for it...Never know though...

jerryrwm · Post by **jerryrwm** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:03 am

Hmmm..... I wonder what everyone thought a good price would've been. Someone care to name a 'reasonable price' that they thought the whip would go for?

When you look at the prices paid by collectors for other memorabilia, and some of it really stupid such as a two page, hand written love letter from a drugged out Kurt Cobain that went for over $15000.00, maybe the whip price isn't out of line. $40000.00 for something that Mark paid a song and a dance for is a pretty good return on investment I'd say. I hope he gets it.

What is funny about the whole deal is that when the original story was posted by Sergei everyone was salivating about the whip. Now that it has a price, it seems there are things that could be wrong with the whip. It is a piece of movie history, and as such it is not meant to be used. At least not for the serious collector. So if it is dry, it could get a coat of Pecard's, and be put on display somewhere.

And if I paid that kind of money for something, whip, ring, watch, car, etc. then I am going to make sure that it is insured to the hilt and it better be packed very well.

On a side note. Paul, who knows, maybe one of those Rundown whips will be sold for a bunch some day. Not that it will help your bank account, but you can have the satisfaction of knowing that someone paid a lot of money for something you made.

keep watching the auction.

Jerry

ps. Was wondering if this thread doesn't violate the "No posting of Ebay Auctions if they aren't your item" rule."

McFly · Post by **McFly** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:19 am

Jerry,
Yeah, I agree - as a piece of movie history, it does deserve a lot of money, and I'm not saying it isn't worth it - it's probably worth every cent, I'm just saying, that's a lot of money. Maybe it seems like it's more to me, being only 15 years old, a sum of money is probably larger in my eyes than in the eyes of, say, a 40 year old.

And the shipping - I also agree that if I were buying something like that, and paid that much, I'd also expect some good shipping, but $200 seems a bit much for insurance, styrofoam, and a cardboard box.

Actually, how do you think they'll pack it? Obviously not like a vendor would ship a whip to a customer... maybe it IS deserving of a $200 tag? And depending on how good the insurance is, maybe that's worth it too...

In Christ,
Shane

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:23 am

Too muuuuuuuuuuuuch expensive for a whip never used in the screen !

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:18 am

jerryrwm wrote:Hmmm........

ps. Was wondering if this thread doesn't violate the "No posting of Ebay Auctions if they aren't your item" rule."

Yeah, Jerry I hear ya. The spirit of that rule was to not run up the bids for other interested parties here. It's happened many times before and happend to me on bids that got out of hand. I don't think anyone here is going to do an opening bid of $40K.

) We may see history here or maybe not. But it's going to be fun to watch, regardless.

-S

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:56 am

Sergei, as I said before, you did a phenomenal job documenting that bullwhip a few years ago, I don’t think a steak dinner would be asking too much.

Furthermore I’ll be the first one to admit that the starting bid is very steep to say the least, however; at the same time if had that kind of money lying around I would bid in a New York minute. In fact I think I will mention it to anyone looking for a last minute Christmas gift for me. Seriously though, an original prop bullwhip from the Indian Jones Trilogy is an item I have dreamed about owning since I first seen Raiders of the Lost Ark on the big screen some 24 years ago. It’s a piece of movie history and in some ways a piece of my own history. That whip, that movie was the big push that brought out my interested in whip cracking, which is now a very important part of my life. While I am very happy with the Morgan whips I own, to me that one is much more then just another whip. True, while there are many more important things in life, it would certinly be more then welcome my collection.

Personally though I hate to see that whip go up for auction. Even though I was under the impression that it had been up for sale for some time for the right price, I figured it was safe in Mark’s possession. Besides I always thought that if anyone other then Mark owned that whip, it should be David Morgan or myself (ok maybe that last one is a stretch). Whats that saying, “That belongs in a museum” well if not my museum then whoever gets it, I hope I can be his or her new best friend!

All the Best and Happy Holidays!

Dan

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:21 am

I m ready to put $10 000

for that history movie prop, no more ! it is a " stunt whip " or "training whip"....

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:16 am

Merry Christmas, and happy holidays everybody!!!

Hey Paul,

When I first saw that $200 dollar shipping, I also thought that it was a lot for it. I thought about it though, $40,000 + insurance has got to cost quite a bit. I forget how much insurance works out, but I think it's like 50 cents or $1 dollar to every $100 dollars. Im not positive though.

I agree the fall does look a bit dry... Ok, a lot dry, but if someone pays $40,000 for it, I doubt they'll be out there cracking it.

Jerry,

$40,000 is about $15,000 more than I thought the starting bid was going to go for. Either way if I had the money, and could spare it, I'd pay twice as much for it. It's a big part of why I'm now doing what I'm doing. And if that movie wasn't made and that whip wasn't in it, I'd probably be just getting out of college and trying to get a job being a foreign translator. Who knows... I'm enjoying this a lot more than I would be doing that, even though I'd be pretty well off money wise the other way.

That movie, and those whips pretty much has kept the whipmaking industry and the history of it alive. Not to mention that sport whipcracking is really growing fast now.

You also made some excellent points-

jerryrwm wrote:"What is funny about the whole deal is that when the original story was posted by Sergei everyone was salivating about the whip. Now that it has a price, it seems there are things that could be wrong with the whip. It is a piece of movie history, and as such it is not meant to be used. At least not for the serious collector. So if it is dry, it could get a coat of Pecard's, and be put on display somewhere.

And if I paid that kind of money for something, whip, ring, watch, car, etc. then I am going to make sure that it is insured to the hilt and it better be packed very well. "

I just wanted to re-iterate those points.

And you're right who knows, maybe one day one of the rundown whips will be sold for thousands of dollars, and someone will make a bunch of money out of it. I think I'm on the wrong side of this business, ;-) hahaha. Your right though, I would be extreemely excited, and proud of myself, if one of the rundown whips I made ended up selling for a boatload of money on ebay. That would be pretty cool!

Sergei,

It is going to be a lot of fun to watch, It would be exciting if someone bids on it, but at the same time I hope no one does. I'm still hoping that somehow I come up with some money and a bit down the line I can buy it, but I guess its just wishful thinking. But if it does sell, I'd say you get a steak dinner and a $100 dollar bottle of wine for sure, he used your documentation. Could you invite me along too?

) pretty please. hahahha

Let's see what happens...

Happy Holidays everyone!!!

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

webley420 · Post by **webley420** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 8:29 am

Is thare realy {without a shadow of doubt} that this whip was made for or is in the movie? Is it possible that its just an old whip?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:34 pm

All I can say is that for $40,000, shipping and insurance should be freakin' free!!!

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 12:43 pm

webley420 wrote:Is thare realy {without a shadow of doubt} that this whip was made for or is in the movie? Is it possible that its just an old whip?

The original owner of this whip was Glenn Randall Jr. He was the 2nd unit director. He provided all the whips for Raiders from his private collection in the early part of pre-production to production. They were all David Morgan whips. He trained Harrison on how to crack. After the movie is over, he gifts one of those whips to his next door neighbor Faye Snyder. He didn't think Raiders would be the hit that it turn out to be. He tells Faye that the whip was used in the movie - Glenn Randall Jr. said it. Faye then in a deal with Mark Allen to sell one of her trick saddles throws in the Raiders whip to fetch more money out of Mark. That was 1992.

That is the 10 second elevator speech on the history of the whip from David Morgan the maker, to Glenn Randall Jr., to the set of Raiders, to Faye Snyder the next door neighbor and finally over to Mark Allen. No you can't say that whip was in a certain scene. No one can say for sure. However, Glenn Randall is on record saying it was used in Raiders. He mentioned it to Faye right after the movie was completed and to Mark Allen later in the 90's.

For those people that bought the 3 previous whips sold in the auction, was there an actual statement that the whip sold was indeed in scene X? The 3 known Raiders whip sold in auction were:
- Spielberg
- Ford
- Armstrong

-Sergei

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:45 pm

One bid is in. Getting interesting.

webley420 · Post by **webley420** » Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:08 pm

Sergei wrote:One bid is in. Getting interesting.

Well who ever this bider is if thay win thay are in for a real treat :!: Sorry for the doubt

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:05 am

One will never see a Raiders whip with better providence. However, IMO the price is way / way out there. The economics classes I had in the 70’s taught me about Marginal Utility the use of funds. There are so many better ones out there for me that I would never consider bidding here. I would rather have a film used Last Crusade Grail Diary that I can pin down to a specific scene rather than one of a great number of whips used in Raiders and the diary could be had for ½ the price.

The $200.00 shipping price is an insult as well. I wish Mark Allen and the ebay bidder well but I am glad but I am glad it's not my money.

Thanks
Bill

jerryrwm · Post by **jerryrwm** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:03 am

The price someone asks for a particular item is their business and they have their reasons. Many people get an appraisal from professional dealers. Others get appraisals from private collectors. The current value of anything is in the heart and mind of the owner/seller, based on their attachment to the item.

Many of your ideas of the value of this whip differ from at least two people that we know of so far. Mark Allen, who is selling the whip, and the person who bid on it. Right now, they have the only two opinions that matter. Mark set a price and the bidder felt that it was a fair price within the price range that they were willing to pay. And it doesn't matter what Mark paid for the whip. Remember the old business saying - "Buy low, Sell high." Mark is a businessman who is in the business of making money. He has sat on the whip for quite a number of years. Now he is getting a return on his investment.

I understand that it is out of the range of most of us. But to then try and second guess the seller, and accuse him of being greedy, and then question the validity of the whip ("are we sure without a shadow of a doubt that the whip was used in the movie?") ("too much for a whip that just used for practice.") What is that? Now you have questioned the itegrity of about three people involved with the whip - Mark, Faye, Glenn. Not Sergei because he validated the whip as being screen accurate and made by David Morgan. Sounds like the old, "if I can't have it, then it's not worth it.")

As for the shipping charges. Who should pay that? Mark, the buyer? For shipping an insured item with signature confirmation, the USPS insurance on $40,000.00 is "$11.20 for the first $5000.00 plus $1.00/$100.00 or fraction thereof. You figure it out what the shipping will be. When you buy something from a catalog, who pays the shipping? Try buying a car out of the area and see what it costs to have it sent in. $1.00 - $1.50 per mile one way.

So, get over the fact that the whip is completely out of range of most of us and feel good that someone is getting the whip.

What would you be willing to pay for a movie used Wested? Or a pair of Aldens? Or the Fedora? Everything has a value that is agreeable to two parties.

Just my rant.

Jerry

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:24 pm

Well said Jerry. I have to admit I have felt a little victimized by some of the comments. But Faye, Mark and Glenn most certainly do not deserve it. As Bill mentioned, that is what makes the backstory to this whip unique. It was the provenance from each person that give this a unique backstory. Unlike the other auctions where Spielberg just happened to get one of the whips from wardrobe and then he sells it a few years later. This story was unique.

Feraud · Post by **Feraud** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:59 pm

If I had the cash, I would probably buy this whip in a heartbeat! People should question the history of any item they purchase. $40,000 is a lot of money to many people but not unfair of the seller to ask this price. It is his whip to sell or hold at his discretion. The sellers do not force anyone to bid.

Like I said, I'd grab it if I had the dough.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:26 pm

Hey, I'm just glad we have a forum were we can discuss our opinions for whatever little they are worth.

Sergei, you've certainly made this an interesting story to follow.

As I stated earlier, it's just my opinion, and worth anything only to me.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:09 pm

Hey everybody,

I got this email from Rick Lemberg, earthunt. Hopefully this may help in this interesting discussion.

Dear Paul,

Merry Christmas to you and yours!
I have been following the posts on Indygear. Thank you for taking the time to post some info about the auction. I have tried to join the forum to clear up a point or two but I cannot until one of the web guys there activates me.
If you do get a chance in the next day or two, do post the following on the forum on my behalf: 1) Thank everyone for their interest and let them know we appreciate their kind thoughts and review of this rare whip. My email is Knifethrwr@aol.com. Although we have never met, a knife throwing lesson/demo and a steak dinner will certainly await Sergei here on the beach south of San Francisco (or if he finds his way to a WWAC Convention)! 2) The shipping of $200 is less than the actual cost of insurance alone. The shipping is actually free in the US as it will cost around $250-$300 total including full insurace and tracking, etc... International shipping will probably run twice that to do it correctly (safely & legally). 3) This $40,000 base bid price is lower than the either of the previous two that sold over 5 years ago. The last one sold was 1999 at Christie's in London, for 27,600 British Pounds, which was $43,000+ at the time and would be over $55,000 today due to currency flux. 4) We have received dozens of serious inquiries. There are a number of established dealers & collectors negotiating behind the scenes. Depending on the outcome of a few private requests that are being addressed, 50K to 60K may be reached on this one. Either way, it appears very likely that it will sell this week as it has a legitimate bid.
Thanks again for your interest at the Indygear forum! From Rick Lemberg at EarthHunt on eBay.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

Ps- Again, I second what Jerry said.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:13 pm

Well that's too funny. I have met Rick two or 3 times at the WWAC. Remind Rick that I am a WWAC Lifetime Member #11.

) Those knife throwers go into their area for the entire convention and never come out to see anybody else.

) I know you know what I mean Paul.

Thanks for posting the email from Rick. I knew the serious collectors are probably laying back and playing it cool.

-Sergei

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:01 pm

I am not saying anyone else here is wrong. What somthing is worth at any point in time is what the market will allow.

Just don't do it with my beans.

Thanks
Bill Walton

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:41 am

The serious collectors are probably waiting at the end of the auction to snipe it out from other people. That happened just recently with a DM 8 footer that went for around $250 (Paul, you know about what I speak!). The winner outbid me by about $1.50 with just seconds to go. And because it seems as though this always happens on items of popularity/interest, I never bid until the end either.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Robert Duke · Post by **Robert Duke** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:46 am

Sergei wrote: I have met Rick two or 3 times at the WWAC. Remind Rick that I am a WWAC Lifetime Member #11. )

Sergei, They let Rick out of the knifethrowing area once in a while to throw whips. I've seen him cracking whips, but not much. Rick is a WWAC Lifetime member #6. I am #7

I can verify that yes, Sergie goes to the conventions too.

I've already booked my hotel in Claremore, OK at the Days Inn and also registered with WWAC for the convention Apr 14-17. I hope to see some of you there.

The Indy whip on ebay is interesting to watch. It is a very rare piece of memorabilia and could go a lot higher than people think. Watch those snipers at the end!

Knifethrwr · Post by **Knifethrwr** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:31 pm

Hello Whip folks! I was just activated for the forum. Hello to all my friends in the WWAC including Sergei! It has been my pleasure to work with Mark on this rare Raiders whip. The most interesting part has been having it in my physical possession for the past several weeks. It really has the feel of a piece of history as do many such rare movie lots. Knowing that there are hundreds or thousands of fans around the world of Raiders that would love to handle (and crack!) this piece makes it a very special piece to show my children and family during the holidays. The whip we are listing next week is another fascinating piece of movie history from the archives of famed stuntman - whip coach - movie double - Alex Green of Canada. It is a 50+ year old movie whip hand made by Hollywood whip legend, the late David Kashner - and used in films by dozens of stars - from Yul Brenner & Gregory Peck to Burt Reynolds and Rachel Welch. It is a beautiful whip in excellent condition considering how many films it has appeared in and its long history. Alex is also sending me a number of other exciting props to auction - including the big fur hat that Charles Bronson wore in "death hunt" with other items of Bronson's from that film. (Alex did the stunts in that film doubling for Bronson - including the cliff jump into the tree tops and subsequent 50ft fall from the trees with gunfire from a helicopter and plane peppering the site) - great stuff. Best Regards, Rick Lemberg - at EarthHunt on ebay

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:51 pm

Welcome aboard Rick. We are glad to have you here. And you are among friends. BTW, I sent you an email. We would be interested on any details after the auction. I hope a museum buys it. I hate to see it locked in a house denying those that want to see it.

Take Care...
-Sergei

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:11 pm

I know the man who bid on it , he is a movies props collector. He has a lot of originals pieces from different movies.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:03 pm

Hey Doc, he may not be the winner. I think there maybe some heavy duty sniping about to start in less than 24 hours.

-S

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:31 pm

I've already booked my hotel in Claremore, OK at the Days Inn and also registered with WWAC for the convention Apr 14-17. I hope to see some of you there.

Robert, any website for this. If it's in the southern part of OK, I might consider driving up. Any details you have, could you email me?

I too look forward to seeing how this auction ends and Sergei, I, too, echo your thoughts in hoping a museum gets this so all can enjoy.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:13 pm

ITG,
Here is the info:

http://wwac.com/convention.html

You need to scroll down to the Oklahoma convention and hit the register button to sign up.

Below is the cut & paste.

====================
Oklahoma

Claremore, OK - National Convention [ Register Online ]

WWAC and the Will Rogers Memorial
join forces for the National Convention
Dates: April 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th, 2005

This is shaping up to be the biggest and best convention the WWAC has ever had. We’ve heard from many members who are planning on attending and the people of Claremore have rolled out the red carpet for us. The Will Rogers Memorial are a huge part of why we have been so successful and we would like to thank them again for all their help!

Travel & Hotel Accommodations: The closest airport is the Tulsa OK airport (only about 20 minutes from Claremore). Oklahoma City Airport is about one hour away from Claremore. Motels in Claremore / we suggest one of these three:

Days Inn
1720 South Lynn Riggs Blvd (Route 66), Claremore OK 74017
918-343-3297 • 1-800-DAYS INN

Super 8 Motel
1100 East Will Rogers Blvd, Claremore OK 74017
918-341-2323 • 1-800-800-8000

Best Western Will Rogers Inn
940 South Lynn Riggs Blvd (Route 66), Claremore OK 74017
918-341-4410 • 1-800-644-9455

These hotels are only 2 miles from the Expo center. We are hoping to have shuttle buses making the rounds all day (more about that as the convention gets closer). The Hotel rates are around $54 per night.

RV’s: RV Parking is available right at the Expo Center where we are having the event. The Cost is $20 per day or $100 per week. No advanced reservations are required but it’s a good idea.

Horses: The Expo Center has a new indoor stable area with 65 box stalls. Feed and Gain is available at Stillwater Milling nearby and they deliver. Shavings are $5 per bag purchased from the Expo Center. Cost for a box stall is $15 for the first night and $5 each additional night. There is Horse Trailer parking near the Indoor Arena and you can keep your horses at your trailer in your own pens at no cost.

Near By Facilities: There is a Super Recreation Center at the Expo. This is a state of the art fitness facility with an indoor pool, weight room, walking and running tracks, basketball courts and much more and the pass is only $5 per day. he Will Rogers Museum is only about 2 blocks away.

Indiana Texas-girl · Post by **Indiana Texas-girl** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:22 am

Walt, I sent ya an email.

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:15 am

So, when does the auction end? I was searching for it and couldn't find it.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Pyroxene · Post by **Pyroxene** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:29 am

Paul_Stenhouse wrote:So, when does the auction end? I was searching for it and couldn't find it.

Auction Ends Dec-29-04 14:26:05 PST

The bid was canceled

Do a search for "RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK WHIP" and sort by highest price.

Pyr.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:01 am

We have to hear from Rick for an explanation. As expensive as this auction was, I am sure it leads to complications.

-S

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:43 am

**Special Update**
The potential buyer made an unsolicited contact with me. He has read this thread. He wanted to relay to every reader here that there was a mutually agreed to documentation that did not arrive before the end of the auction. He wanted to state to everyone that this did not reflect badly on the whip or the seller.

Sergei · Post by **Sergei** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:26 am

As another update, just to let some people know that this has not been a pleasant ordeal for me. It was brought to my attention by other members that there was question on why I was involved - "I am just a fan and they don't hand out "Bullwhip Expert" Certicates from any institution". Please reference such thread here on another forum:
http://www.thelostpages.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=575

It was over 3 years ago, that my involvement on this project was completely unselfish. It was my own intellectual curiousity that brought me to this project over 3 years ago when I found out about a Raiders Whip.

Back to topic! The main "key selling criteria" of this item was the provenance of this whip. It went from Morgan, to Glenn Randall Jr., TO THE SET OF RAIDERS, to Faye Snyder and then finally to Mark Allen. My involvement was to authenticate this whip to be:
- a David Morgan whip
- to be made my David Morgan from the era of pre-production to production of the movie, "Raiders of the Lost Ark"
This provenance was documented in the auction and verified. The dots were connected to all the parties. That is what made this Raiders Whip so interesting. Truly unique provenance as compared to the other auctions from previous Indiana Jones whips.

[name deleted by courteous request], if you are reading this since you bothered to not approve my membership in response to your forum... my qualifications were that I have documented the differences between David Morgan whips from the late 70's to present. Please feel free to "search" the numerous threads that I have disclosed on the differences. It's all here in the COW archives. But I guess for some people, including yourself, were to lazy to research those claims.

I have catalogued the differences and mentioned the differences to Mark Allen about 10 seconds prior to measuring the Raiders Whip. That is all documented in Mark's letter as part of the selling collateral. I gave zero "heads up" prior to the measuring of what I was looking for. Once I started measuring the whip, it was true to spec for that era, without a shadow of a doubt. Full Stop, end of story. My conclusion was that it was a David Morgan whip. Since it was made by David Morgan AND it was not a currently crafted whip, but a bullwhip made from his earlier days.

I can go into a lot more detail on my eye for detail on whip makers. I can truthfully spot from a distance of 10 yards a whip made by:
- Joe Strain, Bernie from Tasmania, Terry Jacka, Russell Shultz, Michael Murphy, Janine Fraser, Paul Stenhouse, Jim Markel, Paul Nolan, Robert Duke etc.. (I know I left out some crucial significant others...

) ) In fact, I was tested by Mark Allen several times by pointing to a whip and asking who the whip maker was.

No matter how some of the above (not all) , try to copy David, they all have an individual style that breaks through. Just like a poker player, there are the "tells". And there is nothing wrong with being different. Because each whipmaker is an artist and an artist brings his own palette.

I just thought I needed to post this because,... it was needed.

And to be absolutely sure on what I posted in this thread, NO. NO... I am not the sole reason for selling this whip to auction (re: " I just find it highly laughable that the main thing the seller is using to authenticate this whip is a review by a fan.")

-Sergei

p.s. [name deleted by courteous request], feel free to drop me a line. Maybe we can discuss this cordially, person to person, offline. I am not sure if cordial is part of your practice, but I will assure you I will be.

p.p.s. BTW, [name deleted by courteous request] refuses to allow me to respond to his forum. He is denying my registration due to an invalid email address. That is laughable. I did read the first paragraph of the T&C's. Last time I looked the provided email address was not from hotmail or yahoo or from anyother "free" email service provider. The email address I gave him was Sergei@indygear.com. That is not a free email account. It's bought and paid for every year.
p.p.p.s Remember Michael G. Ryan, the author that wrote the Indy article for the 20th anniversary edition of Raiders in the Star Wars magazine? Well some things never change: http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/forum ... 83803.html
http://indyfan.dnsalias.com/vault/forum ... 83883.html

midwestwhips · Post by **midwestwhips** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:41 am

I'd like to put in my two cents here...

First off the Bullwhip Certificate deal-

No, there are no institutions that give out "Bullwhip Expert" certificates, and unfortunately too many people believe you need a certificate to be knowlegeable about anything. No one seems to question Joe Strain's knowlege, or David Morgan's, Paul Stenhouse, or any of the other whipmakers out there. They have no certificates stating that they are Bullwhip experts, yet they are all considered so, and I am not arguing that. Show any whipmaker a whip at random and they can tell you who made it at a glance. Show them 5 whips that are exactly alike made by 5 different people, and they could tell you who made each one. Actually, most people that are observant, and have a passion for whips could tell you the same. Easily.

I don't know Sergei as well as some of the people on this list do, but I know he is an honest man, and very passionate about whips. Especially Indiana Jones whips. When I met him at the WWAC convention in Las Vegas in 2003 we chatted whips quite a bit and it is obvious that he has a great amount of knowlege of whips, especially the Indy style. He showed me his collection of indys and was kind enough to let me crack his brand new pair of Strain Lonestars, which was quite a treat by the way. He had a wide variety of Indy style bullwhips from different makers, and we discussed the differences between each whip, even though they were all quite accurate copies of the Indy whip. It was easy to tell he knew quite a bit more than the average whip/Indy enthusiast. We weren't just discussing the positions of the handle transition turks head knot, we talked about the different ways the makers beveled the edges of the strands, and how some of the laces were cut a bit wider than needed, and others were more of the standard width.

In my opinion Sergei is more than qualified to be able to tell who made a whip and around the time that it was made.

On to the whip-

If you have a david morgan whip you should be able to tell right away that this whip is definitely a david morgan whip. The knot alone gives it away. And I'm not just talking about the fact that the knot is a 5-part 4-bight turks head. The shape of the knot and even the angle at which the strands are tied through on the knot matches the morgan whip that I have, and every morgan whip that I have ever seen, it matches exactly.

Even the way the wrist loop is braided and the braiding throughout the whole whip screams morgan. The main differences are that the body of the whip looks smaller than the morgans you see today, and the transition knot is farther up the handle than the ones you see today.

This past March after the convention in Vegas, I was lucky enough to finally see this whip in person. I looked it over very very closely, after all pictures never do any whip justice. Right off the bat I was amazed to see how thin the thong really was, especially compared to most of the newer morgan whips I had seen. It was as thin and almost as tight as the strain indy's I have. Most of the morgan whips that I have seen that date back 15 years or more are thin thongs similar to this one. From a strictly whipmaker standpoint, this is the best made morgan whip I have seen yet.

So, to me, there is not a doubt in my mind that this whip is a Morgan, and that it is very very old. Certainly old enough to have been used in the movie. I would bet on it, $40,000 dollars that I don't have.

The main kicker on this whole thing is the tracking down of the history. Mark got it from Faye, She got it from Glenn Jr.(who, we all know worked on the movie), and Glenn bought it from David Morgan. That is a pretty solid story of the history itself. Not only that but Glenn Jr. Himself confirmed this, and that it was used for the movie, and Harrison Ford cracked it himself. That is what really makes this whip what it is. This is more than enough to prove it is what it is.

The way I see it, the service Sergei provided was to affirm that the whip really was made by the person who made them for the movies, and that it was from the time that the movies were produced. Even if he hadn't done this, there was already enough proof.

If anyone is seriously willing to shell out $40,000 for the whip, but aren't sure about it, they could fairly easily be able to get ahold of Glenn Randall Jr. and confirm the story.

Believe what you will, but I have no doubts about this whip.

Regards,

Paul Nolan
MidWestWhips

doc riviere · Post by **doc riviere** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:45 am

We can discuss of that a long time but a thing is sure for some fans or movies props collectors: unfortunately, a fan word ( even if he is very serious and consider as en expert by all fans ) is not a proof of authenticity, especially when you put $ 40 000 in this prop !

I thing a letter from Lucasfilm and Glen Randell will have more "weight"

Just my opinion...

Paul_Stenhouse · Post by **Paul_Stenhouse** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:18 am

I'm going to have to come to the side of Sergei and offer that he holds double degrees, in fan-dom, and whip expert-ness.

(I know, it's not that funny, but that's what I get for trying at 0718, Friday morning).

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Whipcrack · Post by **Whipcrack** » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:31 pm

I read the post about this whip when it was posted and have re-read it again. I have followed with interest all of the posts regarding Raiders whips and the whips made for the other Indiana Jones movies.

At no time has anything Sergei posted been taken by me as as anything except very informed opinion. No depception has every been intended and I am sure none was intended here.

IMO the backround around this whip is about as air tight as could be expected, 23 years after the fact. David Morgan did not mark the whips "Made for Indiana Jones, Raiders of the Lost Ark " nor do they have serial numbers. What kind of documentation could one expect? Was the bidder looking for a way out and thought documentation questions offered a soft landing?

It looks that way to me, again just my opinion.
Bill Walton

IndyBlues · Post by **IndyBlues** » Sat Jan 01, 2005 10:41 am

I think the point is being completely missed here. I don't think it's an attack against Sergie, as much as pointing out that someone selling a supposed, and most probably, a Raiders of the Lost Ark screen used whip on Ebay, while dragging Sergie into the sale.
What if it turned out to be fraudulent?? Someone will want to question Sergie about his qualifications. I would be concerned someone used my good name in a way to sell something, that wasn't documented by Lucasfilm and/or Paramount pictures, to sell a bit of movie memorabilia for an exorbitant (in my mind, maybe not anyone elses) amount of money, on nothing but some stories handed down thru time about the history of the whip.
Again, this is all MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
'Blues