Club Obi Wan

...wish your hats were that cheap, Oakster!

Texan Scott wrote:...wish your hats were that cheap, Oakster!

You get what you pay for!

I would never be able to make them at that cost. The felt alone cost more then the DP hat.

BendingOak wrote:I'm sorry but please show me why? We already know that the TOD was the poet for sure as was the LC except for the couple of Stetsons in TOD.

Besides all that the question was is the Raiders and by no means is it.

John, how do we know that the Poet was used for in ToD for sure? If there is no documentation that the Poet and Stetsons were used in ToD, then it is still speculation. Maybe something was lost in translation? I know that by the time ToD was being filmed, the Poet model we see in Raiders was still being produced. How do I know that? Because I have a Poet model from 1984 on the Raiders block. I'm going to post some links to some photos here of this 1984 "Grosvenor" in which the hat looks very much like the model used in ToD.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07262.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07263.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07267.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07268.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07269.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k53 ... C07271.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Very interesting pictures, indydude.

The back of the crown is markedly taller than the front, which strikes me as a strange anomaly.

Re: what Mr. Penman stated about the cost of felt, he makes a great point. 3 words: economies of scale.

Edit: it's also really interesting to look at this hat as a base of sorts. It becomes apparent where all of the customization / tweaking went between selection and the hat we see on film.

What about this vintage Fedora? (half way down this thread) This has to be what they used in TOD and LC.

It just looks right, with no tweaks or ribbon changes or anything

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric, thank you for posting that. That's what I think is the model for TOD and LC. Look at the bow work. That's the big signature.

erikgunnlugson wrote:What about this vintage Fedora? (half way down this thread) This has to be what they used in TOD and LC.

It just looks right, with no tweaks or ribbon changes or anything

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58083" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have to say, THAT hat looks VERY TOD. Ridiculously so....

Is it a Poet or a Grosvenor?

The owner RNomura stated that it was a Poet.

Yes, that's a poet.

I'm still going to hang my hat, so to speak, on block shape being the main driver in what the ROLA hat looks like compared to subsequent Poets that came out of the HJ shop in later years, regardless of DN-L or Richard Swales input.

Steve Delk has said his ROLA and CS blocks, while similar, do not yield the same hats. He can get an OK ROLA look from his CS block and an OK CS look from his ROLA block, but each has their own details that make the final hat unique.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

It played a roll but there is more to that hat then just the block shape. Ask your self what was the one thing that was different from the first three movies? DL.

BendingOak wrote:It played a roll but there is more to that hat then just the block shape. Ask your self what was the one thing that was different from the first three movies? DL.

While I agree about your comments towards Deborah (sp?) I have to wonder about one thing.

The ENTIRE raiders look to me was very slapdash. That is to say, they knew what they wanted and outfitted Ford to reflect that. But as the movie progressed things took a life of their own and unlike the sequels where they were attempting to go for the same look, or similar look or changed the hat every 5 seconds...
But for Raiders it seems they weren't worried about the "iconic image" etc they were just making a film and if what I read to believe it was at times "slapdash". Raiders came in under budget and under schedule.
That says they filmed it fast and furious. Few takes, lots of allowance of improvisation, etc.
Costume wise would have followed suit.
Therefore, the hat we see throughout the film which obviously changed(as does happen) may not have been planned for such iconic scenes as SOC, etc.... they just HAPPENED.

Sure Deborah came up with the initial concept but a hat like the famous/infamous SOC hat could've been a product of pure coincidence and/or convenience.

I'd have confidence in saying that while both Lucas and Spielberg let Deborah's hat "through" into Raiders, neither of them thought that it was the hat they wanted.....They obviously preferred the smoother, less "distinct" hats that they went with in the next three movies...Despite Steve and Marc's attempts to make them see sense..

They had an idea, and that idea wasn't focused on the Raiders hat at all...They wanted something closer to Last Crusade..The Temple hat was chosen due to the loss of the Raiders one, and closer to what they wanted, and then by the time 1989 came around, both were in a position to angle the hat they wanted and get that into the film..It's not Deborah's choice...And it's not the Raiders hat...

Then, by the fourth film, despite efforts made by Adventurebilt to convince them otherwise, they still felt that Indy's hat was meant to be less distinctive (while still being distinctive..) than Deborah had given them in the first film..

I suspect John is very close to the money here...Deborah's choice, and look was the Raiders Indy...After that, she went, and the pattern changed slightly...Smoother, a little less "lived in" perhaps....The hat was a big difference, but I think what we have now is what Steve and George really wanted...The Raiders was Deborah's interpretation of that vision, and they removed the impact she made..

I think....

backstagejack wrote:

BendingOak wrote:It played a roll but there is more to that hat then just the block shape. Ask your self what was the one thing that was different from the first three movies? DL.

While I agree about your comments towards Deborah (sp?) I have to wonder about one thing.

The ENTIRE raiders look to me was very slapdash. That is to say, they knew what they wanted and outfitted Ford to reflect that. But as the movie progressed things took a life of their own and unlike the sequels where they were attempting to go for the same look, or similar look or changed the hat every 5 seconds...
But for Raiders it seems they weren't worried about the "iconic image" etc they were just making a film and if what I read to believe it was at times "slapdash". Raiders came in under budget and under schedule.
That says they filmed it fast and furious. Few takes, lots of allowance of improvisation, etc.
Costume wise would have followed suit.
Therefore, the hat we see throughout the film which obviously changed(as does happen) may not have been planned for such iconic scenes as SOC, etc.... they just HAPPENED.

Sure Deborah came up with the initial concept but a hat like the famous/infamous SOC hat could've been a product of pure coincidence and/or convenience.

I think she can take credit for the overall look, shape and style of the hat initially, but it morphed into its own distinctive look as the film progressed, mostly due to thin, basically cheap felt as it reacted to the heat, elements, etc. and filming conditions. You might have put the same hat on someone else, and had a different look. It just happened that way. Other, casual fans do not put the same weight or emphasis on the "SoC" fedora as we know it.

Could very well be but that is a mall change and would never be the same without the initial product that she came up with. She's the one we owe the fantastic look that we all came to love.

I'm still not 100% on that.

Did DN-L have a hand in making the hat? Reports have always been conflicting, but let's assume she did have the vision and took that to HJ. In handing over the vision to Richard Swales he's the person responsible for making the vision a reality.

I look at it this way, when customers go to Garrison, John, Marc, Steve, Art Fawscett or other hatters and say, "I have an idea for a hat. I want something in the neighborhood of these dimensions. Here's a picture that sort of shows what I want." is it not the hatter that can take an idea or a 2D image and know the right block to pick, the way to work the felt, trim the brim, sew the ribbon and bow, etc. to make reality out of an idea?

We've seen countless examples here of members who have had an idea, but it's the hatter that receives the rave reviews (most deservedly) for doing the heavy lifting in making the actual hat.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Swales definitely provided the 'hardware'. But he wasn't on hand for the filming process, so, I dunno.

Dimensionally, and technically every measurable way, my hats from Steve, John, and David are pretty much the same as when I received them. But they don't look the same at all as when they left the hatter's respective shops. For better or worse, I shaped the hats to suit myself. It's my impression that during the filming, the Raiders hats took on the character of Nadoolman's vision, much the same way she's been known to talk about distressing the jacket with the pocketknife.

Reminds me, I gotta check into a couple of reblocks!

JMO, JM(I)mpressions

Jim

I'd still say in this case it was the designer we have to credit for the look of the hat..While Swales made it, he wasn't involved in the film outside of that, and had nothing to go on but what he was asked to make by Nadoolman...

Jeff's point about hat makers stands, to a small degree, but we still credit fashion designers with the design, even though they don't make the wear themselves..Hatters are slightly different, in that they create and design together, but in this case, I would suspect Swales wasn't overly involved in the "design"..That came from Deborah, as John says..She worked with the image she had based on Lucas and Spielberg's talks....Then "designed" that look for Raiders....(And was on hand to reform that look while the movie was being filmed)

It wasn't quite what Lucas and Spielberg wanted, and in the later movies, they corrected that....

Swales made the hat, but didn't design the look, that, I suspect, was heavily on Deborah's shoulders...Hence the lack of continuity after she left Indiana Jones....

Designers are different then customers. It's easy for me to talk a customer out of a choice where as the designer has a vision of what they have in mind and most of the time you can't talk them out of it.

Remember, Debra didn't give him a vision of what she wanted. She took a hat stripped it down used it as a raw body and then put the hat together for him to copy. It's all hers.

Some of those conflicting reports we have read and heard about have been made up. I put my money on her then any out side source.

I take DN-L's first person account with a grain of salt. She's been documented changing her story over the years.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

I take hers over anyone else's. If she told the same story word for word I would be suspect it to be nothing but a story.

I have yet to hear any of her tell different stories. Now I know there are 2 nd hand accounts that conflict her story but not from her.

I get boo-ed out of the arena every time I bring this up, but what the heck...

I think Harrison should get at least some of the credit. We've seen tons of pictures of Raiders lids on here, but each one looks a little different. Little tweaks here and there. Why? Because of the habits of the individual hat wearer. The way they take it off, put it on and handle it while not on the head all contribute to the overall look. Why would this not be true with Harrison?

BOOOOOO!!!!!!






Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Kemosabe wrote:I get boo-ed out of the arena every time I bring this up, but what the heck...

I think Harrison should get at least some of the credit. We've seen tons of pictures of Raiders lids on here, but each one looks a little different. Little tweaks here and there. Why? Because of the habits of the individual hat wearer. The way they take it off, put it on and handle it while not on the head all contribute to the overall look. Why would this not be true with Harrison?

I don't know why you would. I a would agree with that. Hats take on the personality of the person wearing it but the oval all look is all Debra. Put a different styled hat on Harrison, even with him handling the hat it wouldn't be the Raiders hat. Case in piont look at all the other Indy hats. Harrison wore the, handle them bit they aren't the Raiders hat. The one thing that's different then all the other is Debra.

Indiana Jeff wrote:BOOOOOO!!!!!!






Regards,

Indiana Jeff

You've been hanging around Erin too much...

Whos Erin?

Sorry John, I was just ribbing Jeff...

BendingOak wrote:

Kemosabe wrote:I get boo-ed out of the arena every time I bring this up, but what the heck...

I think Harrison should get at least some of the credit. We've seen tons of pictures of Raiders lids on here, but each one looks a little different. Little tweaks here and there. Why? Because of the habits of the individual hat wearer. The way they take it off, put it on and handle it while not on the head all contribute to the overall look. Why would this not be true with Harrison?

I don't know why you would. I a would agree with that. Hats take on the personality of the person wearing it but the oval all look is all Debra. Put a different styled hat on Harrison, even with him handling the hat it wouldn't be the Raiders hat. Case in piont look at all the other Indy hats. Harrison wore the, handle them bit they aren't the Raiders hat. The one thing that's different then all the other is Debra.

and we spend a lot of time focusing on a perfect storm of a hat to some, the Hero hat if we can call it that, but it just sort of happened that way, that due to a number of reasons it came together in a unique period of time and in a unique way....not being able to duplicate it in the exact same way again, and part of me is glad about that. It is as unique and distinctive as the Raiders movie itself. When a customer orders one of your hats, John, or Steve's, Garrison's, whomever, I think many of us have the SoC in mind, but the truth is it is far better that it would morph into our own individual "SoC" fedoras than it becoming exactly like HF's in that one movie. Yet, I place a higher emphasis on individuality than on an exacting copy. Wear a new hat made in a similar way, and chances are it would never morph into the exact SoC, and that is most likely the best thing, imo. Probably far better just to let it go and admire the uniqueness of this particular hat for what it was.

BendingOak wrote:I take hers over anyone else's. If she told the same story word for word I would be suspect it to be nothing but a story.

I have yet to hear any of her tell different stories. Now I know there are 2 nd hand accounts that conflict her story but not from her.

Yes, well, there is that. But "we've" been down that road before here http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=57814" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know, John, as a New Yorker you're naturally skeptical. For me, it's believe the integrity of the site or don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

BendingOak wrote:Designers are different then customers. It's easy for me to talk a customer out of a choice where as the designer has a vision of what they have in mind and most of the time you can't talk them out of it.

Remember, Debra didn't give him a vision of what she wanted. She took a hat stripped it down used it as a raw body and then put the hat together for him to copy. It's all hers.

fifthchamber wrote:I'd have confidence in saying that while both Lucas and Spielberg let Deborah's hat "through" into Raiders, neither of them thought that it was the hat they wanted.....They obviously preferred the smoother, less "distinct" hats that they went with in the next three movies...Despite Steve and Marc's attempts to make them see sense..

I think this is a really good point too. In a matter of speaking, ultimately DN-L didn't deliver what GL/SS wanted in a hat. She didn't get the gig for TOD or LC, those jobs going to Anthony Powell. Despite how most fans feel about the TOD hat, obviously GL/SS (likely with input from Frank Marshall and Kathleen Kennedy) liked what was provided because they brought Anthony back for LC (and SS worked with him a third time on Hook).

For CS, Bernie Pollack was brought in as he's been HF's personal costume designer since the mid-90's, but Mary Zophres as the film's overall costume designer had worked for SS on several movies prior to CS. He must like what she does or he wouldn't bring her back.

As fans we may think the ROLA hat is the height of Indy hats. GL/SS obviously don't. They had the chance of getting the best recreation of that hat available from Steve and Marc and opted not to. Costume designers are tasked with bringing the director's vision to life, not their own.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

BendingOak wrote:I take hers over anyone else's. If she told the same story word for word I would be suspect it to be nothing but a story.
I have yet to hear any of her tell different stories. Now I know there are 2 nd hand accounts that conflict her story but not from her.

Good point. This is true with all history -- look at famous events from the past, as told by more then one person. You get conflicting, but close enough accounts which proves the point that the basics of the story is true. Well stated and I for one had not considering this thought before. Sometime the obvious is right in front of us and yet we fail (or choose not) to see it, much less, accept it ! W>

As a newbie to this forum I find this thread to be very interesting. I will obviously need to do some more reading.

tedquinton wrote:As a newbie to this forum I find this thread to be very interesting. I will obviously need to do some more reading.

Be prepared.... it's a disease, once you go over that cliff there's no coming back

backstagejack wrote:

tedquinton wrote:As a newbie to this forum I find this thread to be very interesting. I will obviously need to do some more reading.

Be prepared.... it's a disease, once you go over that cliff there's no coming back

Isn't that the truth.


Don't say anyone didn't warn you.

I didn't really think it was Deborah's take on the hat that Steven didn't like, but rather many other things related to the costume, like the first jackets. Mistakes were made, I guess.

It would be great to see some of the genuine articles. Maybe one day, there'll be an exhibit that will showcase documented screen-used stuff. I mean, they cart the antiquities from Egypt all over the world, why not some genuine movie props? And I'm talking Raiders, with some real first hand descriptions.

Illinois James wrote:I didn't really think it was Deborah's take on the hat that Steven didn't like, but rather many other things related to the costume, like the first jackets. Mistakes were made, I guess.

It would be great to see some of the genuine articles. Maybe one day, there'll be an exhibit that will showcase documented screen-used stuff. I mean, they cart the antiquities from Egypt all over the world, why not some genuine movie props? And I'm talking Raiders, with some real first hand descriptions.

Ah...But both Lucas and Spielberg turned down the AB offer of an exact replica (or very similar to) Raiders hat in the 4th movie...While they kept aspects (or Steve and Marc kept as much as they could) they didn't want the hat from Raiders..What they wanted was a standout hat, with similarities to the ones used in Last Crusade...I suspect that if they'd had the same hats they used in Raiders available when filming Temple, they may have gone with those..But they didn't...And what they got was a subtle change, and has to make do..Then, by the third and fourth film, they were able to source something "spot on" for both of them..

What they got was a Last Crusade, and then a (perhaps something "perfect" for what they wanted) design that they had the time and power to choose in the 4th film...If I had to choose, I'd say what both Lucas and Spielberg wanted all along, was what they chose when they had time and control over the design..And that was the AB design.....Close to Raiders, but less pronounced, and similar to LC, but a little "stronger"....They tried on the first, and missed it, the second was just what they had available, and the third was a return to the original source due to the second being "off" slightly...Then, when they made the 4th, they had the time to choose something "spot on"....

Still..It's just my opinion based on what seems to have been chosen..

As for the exhibition, there was one! The Archaeology exhibition that went on tour around the US (world?) a while back...That had several pieces from the film....It's a shame it didn't come to Tokyo..But still..

Of course the CS hat was chosen to suit HF as he looks today - mileage and all. Much as I love the Raiders hat, I'm not sure it would still look as good on Ford today. Nor would it have suited the rest of the gear, in my opinion. I don't care much for the CS costume, but I guess it was put together too look good on the current model Ford.

tedquinton wrote:As a newbie to this forum I find this thread to be very interesting. I will obviously need to do some more reading.

Just wait until you drill down into the jacket section. Not for the faint of heart.

Illinois James wrote:I didn't really think it was Deborah's take on the hat that Steven didn't like, but rather many other things related to the costume, like the first jackets. Mistakes were made, I guess.

And, yes, there was the debacle with DN-L blowing the entire jacket budget on jackets that ended up being worthless. She had to beg for more money and very nearly delayed the start of filming. Not the kind of stuff that's going to get you invited back to the next party. But that's really a discussion for the jacket section.

whiskyman wrote:Of course the CS hat was chosen to suit HF as he looks today - mileage and all. Much as I love the Raiders hat, I'm not sure it would still look as good on Ford today.....I guess it was put together to look good on the current model Ford.

Gotta agree there. Despite HF being in as good of shape as he was for CS, a 'fuller' crowned hat (without the sharp pinch) matched his fuller face better.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Sorry Jeff those stories about her blowing the budget is just that, stories.

Well, after using DNL as a costume designer for 3 movies in a very short period of time, Steven didn't require her services again. It may have been mutual, or her decision entirely. He may have had reasons to not want her flavor added to the gear thereafter, other than not liking the 'look'.

Temple being a prequel, I could understand wanting variety in the look of the hat. The CS hat is a logical evolution of the LC hat, though. The jump from the Raiders hat, chronologically, to the LC hat, kinda escapes me.

Raises candid questions that I'd be curious to hear both of them respond to.

Well maybe they deliberately wanted him to have a new (or newer ) hat in LC - perhaps he never got his Raiders hat back.

whiskyman, I'm sorry to bother you with this:
This hat, in this pictures is a vintage HJ right?
By the time this pictures were taken, it was re-blocked and ribbon-bow changed, right?



Regards.-

Cool! Even I don't have those pics anymore!
The hat was all original as I understand it. I was given it open crowned and I just bashed the way I thought a Raiders hat looked. Had a lovely antique gold coloured liner with the old blue crest.

I might add it was the SOFTEST and FLOPPIEST fedora I ever owned!

BendingOak wrote:Sorry Jeff those stories about her blowing the budget is just that, stories.

This is from a few years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45957&hilit=nadoolman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And while running the risk of repeating myself, I choose to trust the integrity of this site. It is your perogative for you to choose not to. We'll continue to agree to disagree.



Something we can all agree on is DN-L never again worked for George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg, Frank Marshall or Kathleen Kennedy in the 30 years since ROLA was made. That, to me, is telling.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

whiskyman wrote:Cool! Even I don't have those pics anymore!
The hat was all original as I understand it. I was given it open crowned and I just bashed the way I thought a Raiders hat looked. Had a lovely antique gold coloured liner with the old blue crest.

On liner and sweatband, it was written "13, Old Burlington St." ?
Do you remember where did you get it?
I'm asking you because the former owner, reblocked the hat, and forgot to tell you.

Jeff, I find it interesting that they put her on the special features on the DVDs. There are a lot of people that only work once together. That doesn't mean anything. Don't fault me for not taking 2nd hand account as fact. Besides after recent past events I don't believe anyone's stories.

Indiego Jones wrote:

whiskyman wrote:Cool! Even I don't have those pics anymore!
The hat was all original as I understand it. I was given it open crowned and I just bashed the way I thought a Raiders hat looked. Had a lovely antique gold coloured liner with the old blue crest.

On liner and sweatband, it was written "13, Old Burlington St." ?
Do you remember where did you get it?
I'm asking you because the former owner, reblocked the hat, and forgot to tell you.

I don't remember the address. The crest was blue with some sort of bird?
I got it from Steve Delk - you'd have to ask him for more details. I'm pretty sure he hadn't done anything to it as he used it to compare with his own blocks- Again, he could tell you more than I could. It's now owned by someone who is no longer welcomed around here - a Frenchman (no, not Belloq )

BendingOak wrote:There are a lot of people that only work once together.

She had worked with Steven prior (1941…which went over budget) and it was he who brought her in for Raiders.

While there is a shadow over some of what was reported, I think the majority of the site still holds true…we're working on other areas…especially of that which came from direct interviews with Deb from various staff/members.

Anything on this site is going to be considered "second hand", so that's a weak defense for a contrary opinion…IMO. There's more on this site from members that has been accepted for gospel over the years (hat turn anyone? among others) that would be more distant than second hand interviews.

Indiana Jeff wrote:

BendingOak wrote:Sorry Jeff those stories about her blowing the budget is just that, stories.

This is from a few years ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45957&hilit=nadoolman" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And while running the risk of repeating myself, I choose to trust the integrity of this site. It is your perogative for you to choose not to. We'll continue to agree to disagree.

I don't think the site's integrity is at risk here, just for thinking or interpret some info differently.

According to the interview, however she might went slightly over budget, IMO, not as heavily as one might believe...
And after that, with the little extra money, she did a tremendous job.

Indiana Jeff wrote:Something we can all agree on is DN-L never again worked for George Lucas, Stephen Spielberg, Frank Marshall or Kathleen Kennedy in the 30 years since ROLA was made. That, to me, is telling.

Regards,
Indiana Jeff

Steven Spielberg didn't worked with Harrison Ford in a non-Indy movie, and that's telling nothing to me.

Regards.-