Club Obi Wan

crismans wrote:Someone please clarify this for me. I have had in my mind that the addition of the double seams on the shoulder was an addition of Tony's to make it more durable. One of the differences between the LC and the CS jackets usually mentioned is the addition of this double seam. Yet, in the picture being identified as the archive jacket, we see a double seam on the shoulder. Is it the case then, that this double seam was always there and the maker of the LC jacket (purportedly Wested) ignored this in their recreation and Tony included it?

Yes Crisman's that has been my understanding too of the origin of the double stitching.

It's another thing that Bernie Pollak may be able to clear up.

After TN made the copy of the jacket they wanted, he and Bernie worked together to make some changes/modifications, this I know. The final jacket for the movie is different from the jacket they first wanted copied.

Wrong. I have seen posts here of Cooper jackets with double stitching on the shoulders (1990's iterations). Those photos were up here years before CS was even thought of. That's why I'm asking about this jacket. Coopers did double stitching - this has double stitching. If Lee could join us here we'd be able to put this thing to rest - I think.

CM wrote:Wrong. I have seen posts here of Cooper jackets with double stitching on the shoulders (1990's iterations). Those photos were up here years before CS was even thought of. That's why I'm asking about this jacket. Coopers did double stitching - this has double stitching. If Lee could join us here we'd be able to put this thing to rest - I think.

Not necessarily wrong. There are two stories about the archive jacket floating around here. One is that it is the jacket that became the basis of the LC and CS is a Cooper. If that is the case, then the double stitching on the shoulder seam being a Nowak innovation (in contrast to the jacket he was presented to use as a guide) could be wrong, if the jacket was one of the Cooper's with the double stitching and not one with single stitching. Of course, the LC doesn't have this feature, but it could have been left out when the LC was being made.

The other story is that it was one of Lee's Flight Suit jackets. I have no idea whether his jackets had double stitching or not so, as you said, having him chime in would be terrific on several fronts.

Not trying to split hairs on you here but I really think we've got to go slowly here and take things item by item in verifying.

As an aside, I've forgotten where the photo of the archive jacket came from. I'm not necessarily trying to cast doubt on its authenticity, I just don't remember who first posted it.

crismans wrote:

CM wrote:Wrong. I have seen posts here of Cooper jackets with double stitching on the shoulders (1990's iterations). Those photos were up here years before CS was even thought of. That's why I'm asking about this jacket. Coopers did double stitching - this has double stitching. If Lee could join us here we'd be able to put this thing to rest - I think.

Not necessarily wrong. There are two stories about the archive jacket floating around here. One is that it is the jacket that became the basis of the LC and CS is a Cooper. If that is the case, then the double stitching on the shoulder seam being a Nowak innovation (in contrast to the jacket he was presented to use as a guide) could be wrong, if the jacket was one of the Cooper's with the double stitching and not one with single stitching. Of course, the LC doesn't have this feature, but it could have been left out when the LC was being made.

The other story is that it was one of Lee's Flight Suit jackets. I have no idea whether his jackets had double stitching or not so, as you said, having him chime in would be terrific on several fronts.

Not trying to split hairs on you here but I really think we've got to go slowly here and take things item by item in verifying.

As an aside, I've forgotten where the photo of the archive jacket came from. I'm not necessarily trying to cast doubt on its authenticity, I just don't remember who first posted it.

You have summed up my argument (which I stated earlier in this thread) nicely, so we're in agreement.

My point about the double stitching is simply that I saw Cooper jackets with this feature years before Tony was invloved. He may well have come up with the idea on his own, but he was not the first, that's all. Please don't take this as a dig at Tony.

CM wrote:
You have summed up my argument (which I stated earlier in this thread) nicely, so we're in agreement.

My point about the double stitching is simply that I saw Cooper jackets with this feature years before Tony was invloved. He may well have come up with the idea on his own, but he was not the first, that's all. Please don't take this as a dig at Tony.

I certainly didn't take it that way at all. What I'm driving at is that, while I'm not discounting the photo Coronado3 showed us, I have heard the story several times that one of Tony's innovations was to add the double stitching to the shoulder seam for durability (and RC has stated that was his understanding too, which makes me feel a little better that I've not made this whole thing up! ). That's been my understanding for a while now. The problem, for me, is that I can't remember where/how I arrived at that conclusion which is a little maddening. Because, if that story proved true, then the jacket in the picture couldn't be the famous archive jacket because it has double stitching. So obviously, this couldn't be an improvement that Tony added if this is the case. It's also interesting that the LC jacket had single stitching, although, again, this could be as simple as the maker just not adding the feature for a variety of reasons. But, since you have personally seen Cooper's with the double shoulder seams, then, obviously, Tony wasn't the first to come up with this innovation for Indy jackets in general. The question is did the archive jacket have this feature or did Tony add it? Why is any of this important? If the picture posted is the archive jacket, then we have another distinguishing feature to use in exploring who originally made it.

The problems we face here are what we face on a lot of these jacket questions (keeps it interesting I suppose) in that we're going on stories and not hard facts that we have seen or heard from the principals to verify. Is it a Cooper? Is it one of Lee's Flight Suits? Is the jacket in the photo the jacket that was pulled out of the archives for both LC and CS? Was the same jacket pulled as a guide for both movies? These are questions that only the principals could answer for sure. Doesn't keep me from speculating like mad, of course. I've got my own theories on it, but it sure would be nice to have some facts to back it up. Makes me look smarter!

Well stated Crismans
Also no one is suggesting Tony Nowak was the first to introduce double stitching to a jacket.
In fact it may have been Bernie Pollak who asked for it as one of the later changes.

That Cooper did or may have produced an Indiana Jones jacket with double stitching is an interesting point and might lead to the jacket in the photo being a Cooper but it is not an indicator of origin of double stitched seams.

Cooper made licenced jackets after Temple of Doom. It seems over time the patterns changed slightly. Some may have had double stitched seams. Does anyone have photos of a 'Cooper' or 'Cooper Disney' looking like the jacket in the photo or are memories all we have in this regard ?

Someone needs to contact Bernie Pollak, and Lee Keppler.

the DVD from the original Cooper jackets that Sarge is sending out next week will show what you're looking for on that, I think, RC...

Guys....I think you're doing a fairly decent job of connecting the dots here.

The Cooper jacket was the chosen jacket, guys. It's the one that Spielberg AND Ford preferred from the get-go.

And...really...if I had BP or Lee's number lying around, I'd call 'em up right now. But..I don't have that kind of information at my disposal.

But, from what I've been told, and from what I've seen....I have every reason to believe that jacket in the first photo posted is a Cooper.

Keep digging, thinking, and looking....those pics from the DVDs will be available soon! The jacket's heritage, and the man behind the first jacket, need to receive the credit due.

Regards!
Indydawg

What will be on the DVD Dawg? the jacket in the photo of this thread or the original Raiders movie jacket Cooper made from the cloth mock up, or the jacket the Blue label was made from?

Will those who ordered the 'Italian cowhide' jacket be getting the DVD?

Hi, RC-

First, I wanted to reference something I'm not entirely sure you ever got an answer to...I was looking back at the first parts of the thread and came across this:

Baldwyn wrote:
Well...this IS the jacket that Tony copied for CS, so it's not surprising that the CS leather looks similar

I saw some similarity in texture to this shot of TN's vintage goat:



Is it the jacket Tony copied? Or are you saying it is the jacket Tony made?

What is so special about the jacket in the photo that it had to be accompanied by a 'guard' to Tony's shop who stayed with it?

I don't see the similarity in Tony's vintage goat other than it is smooth appearing.

I wanted to be sure that what I heard Baldwyn saying was that the jacket in the photo was the jacket from the archives that Tony was allowed to copy.

Now...to your question on the DVD. What is supposed to be on it EXACTLY, I'm not sure-or, I guess I should say I am not certain of what ALL will be on it. What I do know will be on it is the jackets made using the original Cooper patterns, POST-production for retail sale. These were promotional pics taken for the purposes of marketing the Cooper-made Indy jackets that were made from the original Cooper patterns from the film. THAT is my understanding.

I think Sarge is willing to send anyone a copy of the DVD who wants one. He's sent me several copies that I'll have available to send out if someone wants. This is not something anyone is going to have to pay for. But, I can't say for certain if he plans to send one out with the recent jackets. Might be a cool idea, though...I'll mention it next time I talk to him.!

Regards!

Oh...one more thing...Michaelson will have these DVDs too.

Keep digging, thinking, and looking....those pics from the DVDs will be available soon! The jacket's heritage, and the man behind the first jacket, need to receive the credit due.

Now this, I fully agree with!

Now...to your question on the DVD. What is supposed to be on it EXACTLY, I'm not sure-or, I guess I should say I am not certain of what ALL will be on it. What I do know will be on it is the jackets made using the original Cooper patterns, POST-production for retail sale. These were promotional pics taken for the purposes of marketing the Cooper-made Indy jackets that were made from the original Cooper patterns from the film. THAT is my understanding.

I'm not sure what all is supposed to be on it either but I've also heard it will feature some jackets using the original Cooper patterns shown well before LC came out. I'm really hoping it will shed some light on the very things we've been discussing here.

And I emailed Sarge and asked if he would include one of the DVDs in with my antique cowhide jacket when it shipped and he said that wouldn't be a problem at all. He's having them copied by an independent company to remove any suspicions of "tampering" with the video. So the videos there for the asking and I think anyone interested in the history of this/these jacket(s) would be well-served to ask for one.

Exactly what he told me, crismans!

And I know the jackets from the photos/DVD material are proportedly pre-Last Crusade....VERY pre-Last Crusade!

High Regards!
Indydawg

Indydawg wrote:..............
I wanted to be sure that what I heard Baldwyn saying was that the jacket in the photo was the jacket from the archives that Tony was allowed to copy.

....

Thanks

I did get that was what Baldwyn was saying. I just wanted to know if he knew that as fact from Tony, or only from the photo being posted here before by others.
It has been suggested before, but never confirmed here that the photo is of the jacket Bernie wanted copied.
It may well be, but to me at this point it is assumption.
In the photo if you examine it, you can see more photos of what could be different jackets being worn by the same person. That puzzles me as there was one jacket that was the object of being copied.

Ahh...well, now that I can't speak to with any kind of first-hand experience...only reiterate what you've, apparently, already gleaned.

Carry on, then!
Indydawg

DO you guys remember a fan who posted here with a jacket Harrison Ford sent to him. I forget the reason. The jacket looked just like the archive jacket - it was a Cooper. The post was from around 2 years ago.


I think our questions are as follows:

Is the photo the archive jacket?

When was the photo taken?

Why are there snaps on the windflap?

Is it a Lee Keppler?

Why double stitching?

Is it a Cooper?

If a Cooper why does it have snaps?

If a Cooper, is it a one-off, or an off-the-rack, mass-marketed Indy jacket?

And, finally, what leather is it?

Did I miss anything?

I think that about sums it up CM

CM wrote:DO you guys remember a fan who posted here with a jacket Harrison Ford sent to him. I forget the reason. The jacket looked just like the archive jacket - it was a Cooper. The post was from around 2 years ago.


............

I remember someone talking about how they had been called by Harrison Ford as HF was looking for information about the Army for a movie he was maybe going to be in?
The discussion went to Raiders ?
I don't recall a jacket being sent out. Of course nothing says HF could not have owned a Cooper made jacket, a 'fan' jacket.
It has been said here he owns his Last Crusade jacket.

The post you mention should still be here?

I'll look for that post. I think the jacket was too small for the man and it was brand new so I think HF had his people source a jacket and send it to him.

Again, thanks for finding that old thread CM, and, from reading it, there was much talk of how it looked like the archive jacket and looked like a Cooper/Wings.

And I see you were onto the shoulder seams at that time as well (I posted at that time but didn't catch the significance back then). Great detective work, sir!

Sgt Hack asked me to post some links to Cooper jacket photos.

We have put the Neil Cooper Indy Jacket photos up on the server for download. They are larger photo files.



The VIP Cow Indy (1): http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 0(cow).tif

http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 0(cow).tif



The VIP Cow Indy (2): http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... ow%204.tif



The Lambskin Indy: http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 0Jones.tif



The Vintage Cow Indy http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... OSITE.tif


The Vintage Cow Indy http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 0Jones.tif



The Vintage Cow Indy Back edge: http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 0EDGE.tif

http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... 20EDGE.tif



The Vintage Cow Indy (3): http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... ow%203.tif



The Goatskin Indy: http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... atskin.tif



The Kid’s Goatskin Indy: http://www.uswings.com/ncij/neilcooperi ... atskin.tif

They are Neil Cooper jacket related. Not sure if they are all the same as on the DVD.

Sgt Hack also noted

The Free DVD of US Wings Virtual Tour..is Free and we send that out for the asking! Michaelson calls them the walk around.

I will send you an e-mail with some of the Original Files of the Cooper Indy Jackets… Look at the 2nd to the last picture close!! BTW each picture down loads in about three min. one file takes about five min. the pictures are about the best high res. going and should help the fans a lot.. Please post!! I will send to anyone that asks.

Regards,

Sgt. Hack

Ahhh...very good...I got that same email yesterday and had not yet found the time to post the pics...so, you took care of it for me, RC! Thanks!

Now...the story behind those pics as Sarge relayed to me is that the ones with the WHITE labels are Coopers...they took out the Cooper Sportswear label (they wouldn't sell...) and, as part of Sarge's marketing campaign, put in the old White US Wings labels...

So...the pics with the white labels are Coopers from around the time Wings acquired that company.

And the pictures ARE very high resolution..and if you have photoshop, you can have an even greater amount of fun with them!

Thanks, again, RC!
Indydawg

I don't see any of those with double stitching in the shoulders (which only means it isn't in the jackets in the photos, not that there was never a Cooper jacket with double stitching), but other details are similar to the jacket in the photo of this thread topic.

Hey....question....on the pictures above that show the top yoke/shoulder seam of the jacket comparing it to a striated goatskin....is that supposed to be the same jacket as pictured at the top?

Because...I'm like you...I think I see double stitching on those shoulders when looking at the entire jacket....

BUT, I do NOT see double stitching in the pics that just show the shoulders...

Are we looking at the same jacket?

Well the first two jackets are the VIP Cowhide

third is the Lambskin

pictures 4,5,6 and7 are the antique Cowhide

picture 8 obviously the goatskin.

I think none of them actually have double stitched shoulder seams, although at first glance it appears some might. It's the way the seams are formed and present in the photo.

I'm guessing when you say the striated goatskin you mean the goatskin above that Sgt hack said to look at closely.

Look at the 2nd to the last picture close!!

(I'm not sure there is actually such a thing as striated goatskin...wrinkled maybe.)

Actually, RC, I was talking about the pics posted on the first page of this thread-the one of the "archive jacket" in question....there's a second pic that shows the shoulder section with a striated leather sample next to it. In the pic of the whole jacket, the seam does look double stitched; in the pic of just the shoulder, the seam looks single stitched. So....my question was...is the pic that just shows the shoulder supposed to be the same jacket as in the pic that shows the whole jacket?

Because, if so...I'm not sure the seam is actually double stitched....if it's the same jacket, how can it be double stitched in one pic and not in the other?

Are my eyes playing tricks on me?

I see what you're saying, Indydawg. In the full jacket pic, the shoulder seam appears double stitched and single stitched in the close-up photo. However, this gives me pause:

Well...this IS the jacket that Tony copied for CS, so it's not surprising that the CS leather looks similar

I saw some similarity in texture to this shot of TN's vintage goat:

Since the sample leather is shrunken lamb, my reading was that Baldwyn was referring to the jacket as the vintage goat (there is a shiny version of this leather). This would make the first sentence refer to the full jacket photo that coronado3 posted. Hopefully, Baldwyn can chime in here to clarify what he meant and what the jacket in his photo is.

Another interpretation is, assuming that the above is wrong and that the two photos are of the same jacket, is it possible in the second photo that what we're seeing is the yoke seam? It appears that it could be the back of the jacket with the sleeves tucked under the front. Just a thought.

Yes, crismans...that may be what we're seeing there...the yoke seam. Good call.

So..the jacket that was copied is the goatskin, and the sample is the "shrunken lamb."

Now, I'm with you....that would explain why the closeup shot doesn't show double stitching on the shoulder seam.

However....that doesn't really clarify the issue with 100% certainty...because I'm like RC...I see what "appear" to be double stitching in some of the Wings photos, but....no Wings jacket I've ever owned has had double stitching on the shoulders.

Hopefully, the DVD will give us some more to go on. These pics help, but...

Later!
Indydawg

Okay, if I was in my English class, I would jump all over me for redundancy, but just to clarify (and I'm sure you probably already understand this Indydawg, but I want to be clear).

I think that Baldwyn is saying that the picture coronado3 posted is the archive jacket, thus it's similarity to CS leather (this was made in response to RC's post). He then goes on to say that he saw a similarity between texture of the archive jacket and Tony's vintage goat offering. I believe the picture he posted was of Tony's vintage goat offering to illustrate his point that the texture is similar to the archive jacket's texturing. I don't think the pictures are of the same jacket. Again, hopefully Baldwyn can clarify.

Now, I'm sure I've made things as clear as mud!

And I wonder who else but me would try to bring in so many grammar semantics to a thread about the archive jacket!

Hey...if you're trying to impress the professor of literature here, you're holding your own

Yep...that was my understanding-and, not to beleaguer the point, but I don't think they're the same jacket either. The leather doesn't even really look the same.

But, yeah...maybe Baldwyn will clear it up.

Regards!
Indydawg

No those photos are not the same jacket. The photo in crisman's thread above that was posted by Baldwyn just shows vintage (non-shiny) goat on top next to striated lamb.
Baldwyn posted to illustrate that to him the vintage (non-shiny) goat looks similar to the leather the jacket that is the subject of this thread is made of. I had said the leather of the so-called archive jacket looks to me to be similar to the CS leather, and people were trying to say you can't tell leather type from a photo.
So no, the jacket that is made of the vintage (non-shiny) goatskin is not the same jacket. I believe it is one of Tony's personal jackets, probably his Raiders 1, or it is a jacket that was made for Baldwyn.

Well then, the seam that I was saying wasn't double stitched, whether it's the shoulder seam or not, would likely not be double stitched either way....especially since it's not the same jacket.


Indydawg

crismans wrote:I see what you're saying, Indydawg. In the full jacket pic, the shoulder seam appears double stitched and single stitched in the close-up photo. However, this gives me pause:

Well...this IS the jacket that Tony copied for CS, so it's not surprising that the CS leather looks similar

I saw some similarity in texture to this shot of TN's vintage goat:

Since the sample leather is shrunken lamb, my reading was that Baldwyn was referring to the jacket as the vintage goat (there is a shiny version of this leather). This would make the first sentence refer to the full jacket photo that coronado3 posted. Hopefully, Baldwyn can chime in here to clarify what he meant and what the jacket in his photo is.

Another interpretation is, assuming that the above is wrong and that the two photos are of the same jacket, is it possible in the second photo that what we're seeing is the yoke seam? It appears that it could be the back of the jacket with the sleeves tucked under the front. Just a thought.

Sorry for any confusion! Yes, that's the yoke seam, and you have a sample of shrunken lamb in the lower right corner. That jacket is Tony's personal vintage goat Raider's jacket. I thought in the photo the colour patterns (not quite the tone, but the lightness/darkness aspect) and the grain were similar to the archive jacket. It is, however, totally unrelated to the archive jacket. I'm just trying to say the archive jacket could possibly be something other than cowhide.

I could see it being goatskin....it's certainly grainy enough. You know...you look at vintage WWII A-2s and M422s long enough, and you almost stop being able to tell the difference between the ones that are goatskin, horsehide, or even steerhide....especially in pictures. You get ahold of some really grainy steerhide or horsehide...and it can look a lot like goatskin.

I agree-it's very hard to tell leather from just a picture. Not impossible...just hard sometimes.

Regards!
Indydawg

RCSignals wrote:

Texan Scott wrote:.

Contradictory. The WC was the 'mother' or the 'daddy' of all jackets, whichever you prefer. If the WC was the first iteration, then the Cooper & LC/Wested were both the second iteration, because they were both working independent of each other, from the working copy. No evidence to say that once Cooper finished his jacket, he gave it to LC/Wested so he could copy it. Subsequently, all jackets of the IJ series are copies and derivatives of the WC. Some faithful, some not always so...seems at though it goes back to the lineage.

Let's be careful to guard what things spin off from such painstaking research, etc. We finally obtain some measure of truth, only to in essence revert back to the spin doctrine.

Yes lets be careful

There is no hard evidence that people worked independently from each other to produce a jacket.
There is no hard evidence that the Cooper jacket, (we also don't know that there was only one) was not given to another maker to produce a copy.
In fact given the visual evidence there is more indication that the jackets either came from one maker and more than likely if two makers were involved they worked from the same set of patterns. Note I say same set of patterns not independently produced a copy of an existing jacket.

We depend on somewhat of a spoonfeeding method, don't we? Yet the lack of evidence doesn't necessarily prove anything false, so you have to resort to a 'most likely' case. Lets run a scenario and see if it holds up? You are a contactor and you are producing a movie. You ask two sub-contractors to make a jacket for you, not just any, you are reaching for a more iconic look, distictive. Very doubtful you would pull both together and then ask them to produce something for you under one roof, given the competition factor, jealousy, etc. Ok, Cooper, you made it first, now give it to X to copy. Slap in the face to the other guy. Under normal conditions, you might contract both, pay for both, then choose the one you liked best, therefore he gets the contract going forward. This apparently did not happen here under normal conditions....exclusive contract by B&N, etc. Things were already in place to make this scenario not a usual case.

Lets run the DN scenario. She flew to England with Wilson's jackets and the WC mock up. This is something that has been stated many times, yet these statements in and of themselves does not necessarily make them true....you can repeat it many times, the frequency does not make it so. What seems 'most likely' about it, is that it is a 'seemingly' neutral set of events. In other words, 'neutral' because it has no bearing on her credibility, work performance, designer skills, preformance in relation to the boss, etc., on the surface, mere statements of the sequence of events, so we can be reasonably certain that she did take the Wilson's jackets and the WC with her to England, and that the idea of a finished product in terms of the jacket was still up for grabs. However, if you look closely, you might have every reason to cover this up, but she didn't. You might feel embarassed if you had asked Wilson's to make 10-12 jackets, was on a tight budget, and these jackets were not accepted by the boss...? You might want to cover that up. She didn't.

Getting back to the subject at hand, we've heard all these years that Lee & FS were producing Indy jackets before LC began; that a somewhat familiar address cropped up one day, and two jackets were apparently sent to the ranch; that Lee was asked to produce jackets for LC, but declined due to being in a precarious position in relation to the events transpiring at FS.

Now, we're catching reports that Cooper was involved in the creation of the LC jacket.

How so?

The "basis":

"Referencing back to the uses of the Adventure Outfitters prototypes would be as follows: first time was when Powell and Ford selected it from the LFL archives. The second time was as the basis for the Paramount jacket available through mail order in 1989. If you bought one of these jackets, you have an early version of what became Tony Nowak’s Kingdom of the Crystal Skulls jacket."

Yep, that's what it says on the main page.

Regards! Michaelson

After TN made the copy of the jacket they wanted, he and Bernie worked together to make some changes/modifications, this I know. The final jacket for the movie is different from the jacket they first wanted copied.

Yes that is correct. And I sure wish I had written down what Bernie told me about getting the jacket replicated for CS. Bernie wanted some tweaks to the CS jacket, or small changes done, in order to come up with the CS jacket. Seems like I recall him saying something about pockets, or flaps, but not really sure.

I do recall him saying he had gotten the jacket to be copied from the warehouse. And it seems like he said he and Harrison went and picked through them. Many were in really bad shape. And he was looking to replicate the LC jacket for CS. Now, how they decided which jacket at the warehouse was which, I don't know. I guess I could email him and request some answers. So, if I did, what primary questions should I ask? Not sure if he wants to mess with it, but, hey, I will give it a shot. All he can say , is to get lost. Fedora

Fedora wrote:I do recall (Bernie) saying he had gotten the jacket to be copied from the warehouse. And it seems like he said he and Harrison went and picked through them. Many were in really bad shape. And he was looking to replicate the LC jacket for CS. Now, how they decided which jacket at the warehouse was which, I don't know.

_ wrote:I know which jacket Frank Marshall delivered (to Tony). I know which one Lucas has.

This jacket has never been in the archives . . . That jacket was in Georges office, and it was made by Neil. David Hack has a letter confirming it. Neil Cooper has the same. Steven wrote the letter, and Tony read it though I believe he had a copy as well.

This letter allowed both Neil and David to make the express claims they have.

This dichotomy is the basis for most of the extreme confusion and angst on these jacket threads lately. It would be WONDERFUL if Bernie could shed some light on this.

RZ

RaiderZee wrote:

Fedora wrote:I do recall (Bernie) saying he had gotten the jacket to be copied from the warehouse. And it seems like he said he and Harrison went and picked through them. Many were in really bad shape. And he was looking to replicate the LC jacket for CS. Now, how they decided which jacket at the warehouse was which, I don't know.

_ wrote:I know which jacket Frank Marshall delivered (to Tony). I know which one Lucas has.

This jacket has never been in the archives . . . That jacket was in Georges office, and it was made by Neil. David Hack has a letter confirming it. Neil Cooper has the same. Steven wrote the letter, and Tony read it though I believe he had a copy as well.

This letter allowed both Neil and David to make the express claims they have.

This dichotomy is the basis for most of the extreme confusion and angst on these jacket threads lately. It would be WONDERFUL if Bernie could shed some light on this.

RZ

I think we're talking about two different jackets here, Zee. There are two stories floating around that the archive jacket (which was the basis for LC and CS) has been reported to be either a Coopers or one of the FS jackets that Lee Keppler had made.

The jacket referred to in _'s post is to the one that was delivered to Tony Nowak. The "angst" there is who made the jacket and what leather it was made of.

OK, disregard my above post, as I am thoroughly confused

Now, back to Guns & Holsters ...

RZ

Fedora wrote:

After TN made the copy of the jacket they wanted, he and Bernie worked together to make some changes/modifications, this I know. The final jacket for the movie is different from the jacket they first wanted copied.

Yes that is correct. And I sure wish I had written down what Bernie told me about getting the jacket replicated for CS. Bernie wanted some tweaks to the CS jacket, or small changes done, in order to come up with the CS jacket. Seems like I recall him saying something about pockets, or flaps, but not really sure.

I do recall him saying he had gotten the jacket to be copied from the warehouse. And it seems like he said he and Harrison went and picked through them. Many were in really bad shape. And he was looking to replicate the LC jacket for CS. Now, how they decided which jacket at the warehouse was which, I don't know. I guess I could email him and request some answers. So, if I did, what primary questions should I ask? Not sure if he wants to mess with it, but, hey, I will give it a shot. All he can say , is to get lost. Fedora

It would be great if you could do that

Please start by showing him that photo and asking if it is the jacket the wanted copied, or some other jacket, maybe a submitted prototype.

Your recollection of changes they made is similar to what I've discussed with Tony Nowak, maybe with a few more. But I do remember Tony saying the jacket they wanted him to copy was not in great shape and hadn't been made well. The jacket in the photo doesn't look that bad.

RCSignals wrote:

Fedora wrote:

Your recollection of changes they made is similar to what I've discussed with Tony Nowak, maybe with a few more. But I do remember Tony saying the jacket they wanted him to copy was not in great shape and hadn't been made well. The jacket in the photo doesn't look that bad.

It'd be great if Fedora could do that fact checking for us.

But that photo jacket could well be in bad shape, the liner might be torn up and the stitching loose, not to mention that we only see the front. Photos are unrelaiable.

I personally don't know why we even use photos or look at the movie for that matter.

Can't trust any of that "black magic" stuff, kids!

Frank Sinatra is now singing in my head!!!