Todd's Pants

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:06 pm

Puppetboy wrote:Just wait until they come out with the restored Raiders on Blu-ray - who knows what color they will be then!

They could be white!

Randy

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:17 pm

Kt, why didn't you take a Pantone book with you when you saw those trousers?

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:32 pm

Hey All,

KT, you've said in the past that Wested's current offering were very close in color to the screen used ones.

Hey puppetboy,

NH experienced quite a bit of "detail creep". Go with the photo's. I don't think NH was able to make those pants personally. Others did the work for him without his commitment to "correctness", that's my guess. Also, as cool as it sounds, I don't think the damage to those pants is from the truck sceen. ...Just moths!

Dan S

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:00 pm

I just read KT's original thread about the pants. Where have I been??! He did say that the color was almost identical to a modern pair of NH pants side by side, so there you go. I have seen Noel's fabric.

KT, thanks for the info about the tag. If these weren't HF's pants, I would wonder if his pants were a little more nicely finished inside. I guess not.

Moths? DON'T GO IN NOEL'S CLOSET!!! Odd that they're only eaten around the seat/hip area and not the legs. They must not have been hanging or the moths would have eaten everywhere. And they're eaten evenly on both sides, so they weren't folded. If they were folded they'd only be eaten on the side that was exposed on top. Sorry, been watching too much "Monk" lately. What do you think?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:02 pm

Well, moths like the crotch area on pants because that's where most food crumbs and bathroom stains are found. Gross, but true.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:08 pm

Fooey! I knew somebody would have an explanation.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:16 pm

Okay, from the Monk point of view... don't touch that.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:27 pm

Okay, yeah, well, see, here's the thing...I don't touch clothes that other people have worn. Ever. Especially ones that have had insects eating them...the saliva...and what they leave behind...the excreting. Especially the excreting. Moth-eaten clothes was number 111 on my list of phobias, but now that I think about it, I have to move it up to number 102, right behind strong winds. No...104, behind shrubbery (the dogs...you know...)

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:29 pm

I guess I should take back all the stuff I bought you at the Goodwill, huh?

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:31 pm

Goodwill stores...number 39.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:32 pm

I'm for practicality on the pants. It would be nice just to throw them in the washer & dryer when needed. My vote was for #3. The pants have seemed to be taupe, gray, with light shades of pink, depending upon the lighting. Any chance of viewing samples of the material, side by side? thanks.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 1:45 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:Kt, why didn't you take a Pantone book with you when you saw those trousers?

Now he says!

Funny thing is, although I'm a designer, or perhaps because I am, I am acutely aware of the shortcomings of the Pantone system. It great if the color you are looking for is in the book, but for fabrics and for leather especially it seems very hard to match with Pantone. Perhaps there is a multilevel to fabrics that the solid single colour nature of Pantone cannot pickup. For subtle colour differences I was a big fan of Focaltone, it was a shame that never really took off, it was great AND it was based on process inks. It managed a far wider gamut than you would believe possible from standard CMYK. Now don't get me started on Stochastic Hexachrome...

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:55 am

I want something that doesn't sag as much as what is screen accurate, rather stiff, that may mean some polyester perhaps? Probably depends a lot on the fabric weight, maybe the weave. I think it's best to err slightly on the side of tough khaki look instead of blow or billow in the wind, flimsy, translucent, dress pants look, again probably not exceedingly screen accurate, but I think it would look better on most folks, be more practical, and probably be a more durable product to take into the outdoors in "real life".

Exhibits A & B, I'll leave you to ponder which is which

$\:D/$

BazzanoJones · Post by **BazzanoJones** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:29 am

I voted for 100% wool. I use them only to wear on the costume and I like to have it as much screen accurate as possible.

But I think that the final price will make the biggest difference on choice: I've read of many people that had bought a pair of polyester blend trousers because they're cheapest than the 100% wool.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:25 am

Kt Templar wrote:
binkmeisterRick wrote:Kt, why didn't you take a Pantone book with you when you saw those trousers?
Now he says!

Funny thing is, although I'm a designer, or perhaps because I am, I am acutely aware of the shortcomings of the Pantone system. It great if the color you are looking for is in the book, but for fabrics and for leather especially it seems very hard to match with Pantone. Perhaps there is a multilevel to fabrics that the solid single colour nature of Pantone cannot pickup. For subtle colour differences I was a big fan of Focaltone, it was a shame that never really took off, it was great AND it was based on process inks. It managed a far wider gamut than you would believe possible from standard CMYK. Now don't get me started on Stochastic Hexachrome...

I hear you, Kt. In fact, we recently had to try to match a fabric ink close to a Pantone color for a trade show booth banner. It was brutal! Even the choice of white fabric affected the color being printed on it. I'm not looking forward to doing that again any time soon.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:35 am

Yes, but is it 50% 50% or 100 poly??

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:44 am

I think it was cavalry twill.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:21 pm

You're right, KT. Pantone books don't really work on textured materials like fabric or leather, especially when the chips are so small. I ended up taking the fabric to Lowes and having it analyzed by the paint matching machine. They ran it three times and mixed me three quarts of flat paint. I painted some artboard with the three colors and looked at them next to the pants in various lighting. One of the colors was a perfect match. We sent a square foot card of that color to the mill for them to match. And, no, I won't post pictures of the three colors. It is pointless to judge color from a photo, let alone a computer screen.

I appreciate all the input here. But really, the design will be based on the actual pants. I'm not making Dockers, here. I really just wanted to know how many would prefer the SA wool.

indyclone · Post by **indyclone** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:02 pm

i voted 50/50 with good results, cause i'd like to wear them a few times a week and be able to wash them and not have them fall apart .

it is great to finally hear confirmation that you will be doing pants soon , can't wait for the day to order them .

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:06 pm

Puppetboy wrote: And, no, I won't post pictures of the three colors. It is pointless to judge color from a photo, let alone a computer screen.

...was just curious as to what the fabric looked like, but not absolutely necessary. It's getting more difficult to find accurate pants these days, so it will be great.

Indiana Jake · Post by **Indiana Jake** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:29 pm

BigRex,

After reading your post carefully, I am not sure what either of these photos of trousers you have posted points out,

other than Micheal looks good in his gear. That being said, the wool Todd is referring to is quite durable and it does not get the tiny pills or pilling effect in the areas that wear out the most. Unfortunately pilling is a terrible letdown when it comes to blend fabrics. I think the reason it is called cavalry twill is that this was a wool meant for a mounted uniform similar to police and yes, cavalry uniforms. This fabric is also called elastique by others. The fabric actually has some give and stretch to it. Not to be confused with the modern stretch jeans worn by hot curvy girls or your old grandpa (Gee that is a difficult visual all in one!)

I think many of us will be very pleased with this cav twill fabric for SA pants. I'll take the close-enoughs on any situations where I might actually get dragged by a truck or come head on with any other tough stain and wear situation.

Maybe someone can enlighten us on the history of this fabric. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's been around since WW1?

Indiana Jake

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:58 pm

Puppetboy wrote:You're right, KT. Pantone books don't really work on textured materials like fabric or leather, especially when the chips are so small. I ended up taking the fabric to Lowes and having it analyzed by the paint matching machine. They ran it three times and mixed me three quarts of flat paint. I painted some artboard with the three colors and looked at them next to the pants in various lighting. One of the colors was a perfect match. We sent a square foot card of that color to the mill for them to match. And, no, I won't post pictures of the three colors. It is pointless to judge color from a photo, let alone a computer screen.

I appreciate all the input here. But really, the design will be based on the actual pants. I'm not making Dockers, here. I really just wanted to know how many would prefer the SA wool.

AH, but dockers don't have the right color, oh, well. It was worth a try.

I will still look forward to the results and may very well get a pair.

bigrex · Post by **bigrex** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:05 pm

Indiana Jake wrote:BigRex,

After reading your post carefully, I am not sure what either of these photos of trousers you have posted points out, other than Micheal looks good in his gear. That being said, the wool Todd is referring to is quite durable and it does not get the tiny pills or pilling effect in the areas that wear out the most. Unfortunately pilling is a terrible letdown when it comes to blend fabrics. I think the reason it is called cavalry twill is that this was a wool meant for a mounted uniform similar to police and yes, cavalry uniforms. This fabric is also called elastique by others. The fabric actually has some give and stretch to it. Not to be confused with the modern stretch jeans worn by hot curvy girls or your old grandpa (Gee that is a difficult visual all in one!)

I think many of us will be very pleased with this cav twill fabric for SA pants. I'll take the close-enoughs on any situations where I might actually get dragged by a truck or come head on with any other tough stain and wear situation.

Maybe someone can enlighten us on the history of this fabric. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's been around since WW1?

Indiana Jake

Indiana Jake,

Yes, Michael looks good in the gear, sorry if that distracts from my main point. Please note the sags and rumples in one set of pants which require dry cleaning to remove. Those are less pronounced in the redyed chinos in the other photo, granted his build may assist that, but the thicker fabric also plays a very key role here. I just know I have a set of Wested pants, and while the color in my view is pretty ideal, the wool twill, although not flimsy, is rather apt to flop due to it's weight, not look more crisp and full. It will tend to cling to the legs even when the cut is rather large, so it can at times end up looking rather odd. I can redye L.L. Beans too, but it's not my first choice. Just food for thought and discussion, I am by no means wishing to "inflict" my personal preferences upon anyone, and don't think you will have to worry about that happening anyway.

Ranger36 · Post by **Ranger36** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:31 pm

I changed my vote. I like the practicality of the 50/50. I plan to be wearing them alot, and I don't want to have to take them to the dry cleaners everytime.

theinterchange · Post by **theinterchange** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:48 pm

Rex, that illustration could be taken a number of ways... But, I see your point.. I wouldn't want pants as baggy as say Raiders or Crystal Skull, I would want a more trim fit for myself as I have thinner legs and baggy pants make me look as if I'm walking on stilts for legs..

randy

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:15 pm

I voted 100% wool for being screen accurate. I doubt that I will wear them any more than when I'm all costumed up, so screen accuracy is more important to me. But I don't want "costume quality" gear, either. The piling that happens with synthetics is not acceptable to me. Just where are you guys hiking with these pants that each time you go out you would need to have them cleaned? When Indy is on his adventures, I don't think he stopped to throw them in the wash or take them to the cleaners. Were wool/poly blends even available in the 1930's?

ravencrow · Post by **ravencrow** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:00 pm

full wool , and baggie as all ####. i want to fit a family of Ethiopians in them

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:02 am

And Rex used my pants as well. Interesting...

I guess he's comparing the flowing wool to the more stiff khaki type material. Well... my pants are original "pinks" which are 100% wool, and I must say that they are ideal for Indy pants (good enough for me for now). Its more of the cut in the pants in the picture that's playing a role since they aren't exactly cut like Indy pants and are pretty baggy on me (the pic was day of arrival before alteration). Once worn though a few times, and altered to the correct sizing, they fit great, and feel great. If you want your pants to behave like Indy's on screen, its wool all the way.

Here is a better pic to show how they look. I think Gater's pants aren't 100% wool so its a somewhat comparison (unless his are)

I am on the left, Gater is on the right

Indiana MarkVII · Post by **Indiana MarkVII** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:20 am

Which one is you and which one is Gator?

TheExit148 · Post by **TheExit148** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:21 am

Indiana MarkVII wrote:Which one is you and which one is Gator?

Oops, should have mentioned that since most people don't know our faces. Fixed it up.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:59 am

My eye just caught this topic.

This is an excellent project by Todd. I am really eager to see the outcome of his efforts.
One extra question though. Will the trousers be based on the Raiders colour version or on the LC colour version?
Just to point out, IMO and from KT's notes, the original Raiders trousers colour is a bit less pink than the current Wested trousers. In other words, the grey hue should be more intense than the pink hue.

And of course, 100% wool all the way.

Thanks,
Indygr

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:43 am

Indygr,

Thanks for your enthusuasm for our project!

Color - this is a topic that is impossible to answer. Unless we had a pair of pants from each film side-by-side to compare, no one knows if they are different. Once again, let me repeat, you can't judge color from film, photos, or computer screens, especially fine differences in shade or saturation. The only way to do it is in person, and even then it is difficult with fabric.

The "darker raiders color" mentioned by KT is based on a statement made by Noel Howard years ago. Take it for what it's worth. I don't recall hearing if he specified in what way they were "darker" or how much darker they were. More grey? More brown? More red? More chocolate?

The only physical material I have seen in person are Noel Howard's modern trousers, and that color is the one I will match (or the mill will match, to be precise.) Unless I see a pair of verified authentic Raiders trousers in person... Noel's are the only link to the originals.

KT did say that he compared a modern NH pair with the pair in Peter's possession, and they color was the same. I do have a strong suspicion that the pants in Peter's possession are Raider's pants. I know Noel go them after completion of "Temple of Doom", but that doesn't rule out the chance that they were from Raiders. Whether they are Raiders pants or TOD, that's the color I'm matching via Noel's modern trousers.

Todd

sithspawn · Post by **sithspawn** » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:23 pm

Out of curiosity What are you using for a pattern? I thought in the past you said you had access to a SA pair.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:56 am

Good points Todd.

In any case however that you need a swatch from a MBA(not NH) Raiders trousers let me know.

I can send it to you by mail.

Regards,
Indygr

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:36 am

Just a point about the pattern. I remember Noel telling me once that the cut is not baggy like some believe and is much more of a tailored fit. The baggy effect comes from the way wool drapes, apparently.

frogman · Post by **frogman** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:16 am

Well I own MBA Raiders pants
it's too tight in the waist sz 32 and too baggy around the hips then tappering but not as much as Wested's.

Alkali Jones · Post by **Alkali Jones** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:47 am

Hey frogman,

Have them fitted. You know they spent real money making sure HF's stuff fit him perfectly. You should do no less. Go see a tailor. Have them fitted. Bring a copy of the "Military Hem" thread if he doesn't know how to do it. The change will be amazing. Even if they can't be let out as much as a perfect fit requires, the can be let out some. Those pants will look way better fitted. And so will you. That's the secret to looking good in any garment. Have them fitted! And by taking them in in the hip area, they will taper less (Not not taper, just less).

Dan S

beaverlid · Post by **beaverlid** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:01 am

I wear khaki pants at work everyday and would love to wear these instead of my normal dockers. I am all for SA, but I think I would get sick of dry cleaning so I am leaning toward the blend. I just ordered 2 wool / twill blended adventure pants from Magnoli. If Coyles come out soon enough I will get a few regardless of the material.

I hate to ask the premature question Puppetboy, but do you have any idea on a cost. Are you going to be competitive with the other vendors?

Beaverlid

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:07 pm

Out of curiosity What are you using for a pattern? I thought in the past you said you had access to a SA pair.

Yes, I thought so too. The owner came to LA on company business and brought the pants with him, as well as other wardrobe that he owns, with the intention of meeting me in his spare time. Things got hectic for him as his company kept adding more to his plate, and he ended up not having any spare time. I pestered him so badly that now he won't speak to me.

We started with Noel's pattern and made adjustments as we saw the need, the same way we did with the jacket and shirt. Now with KT's photos, we can add the fine details that don't show on screen.

In any case however that you need a swatch from a MBA(not NH) Raiders trousers let me know. I can send it to you by mail.

That is amazingly generous! I am deeply appreciate that! Here's my postal mailing address:

Todd's' Costumes
PO Box 5196
Pine Mountain Club, CA 93222

Just a point about the pattern. I remember Noel telling me once that the cut is not baggy like some believe and is much more of a tailored fit. The baggy effect comes from the way wool drapes, apparently.

Competitive? I'm afraid not. Mine will be far less.

Sebastian Arms · Post by **Sebastian Arms** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:24 pm

I have enjoyed everything I have received from Todd's Costumes. Some needed some detail work to obtain that first scene from ROTLA look that I am focusing on, but they (shirt, web belt, boots, sandbag) have all held up well.

I like the %100 wool twill and hope that you go this route. I wear my current pair of pants (Wested) 2-6 times a month and don't see the need to have them cleaned that frequently as a good airing out fits the bill (a little mud never bothers me).

Take care Puppetboy and get some great pants available as soon as you can as I will order some if they are all wool.

Your servant,

Sebastian Arms

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:10 pm

Puppetboy I may be of help here (sorry if I noticed this thread only now).

I might give you the exact size of pockets right out of Noel's screen used trousers. If you would like to PM me I'll give you more info. Why? Because I care to have AT LAST a pair of screen accurate trousers with correct pockets, material and colour.

Concerning these last issues, my personal wish is that you stick as close as possible to NH colour and keep also the same material (the swatches you are going to receive will be of help).

If you have to go screen accurate go all the way, don't listen otherwise or it will end up being "just another close enough replica" and we've got plenty of those already:

Material: 100% cavalry twill like NH (yeah feck the machine washability, screen accuracy all the way) - and same density too (that counts aswell!)

Colour: copy the NH replica which was practically identical to the ToD screen used ones (which in turn they were probably left-overs from Raiders)

Who wants machine-washable trousers can get a pair of Magnoli thank you guys, I know dry cleaners are annoying and expensive but screen accuracy is dedication.

beaverlid · Post by **beaverlid** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:30 pm

Competitive? I'm afraid not. Mine will be far less.

That is good news. I look forward to making a purchase.

sithspawn · Post by **sithspawn** » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:04 pm

You also should take into account the research that Alkali Jones has done on the pants as he has a lot of useful info on them. The real pants did NOT have a waistband.

indygr · Post by **indygr** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:13 am

That is amazingly generous! I am deeply appreciate that! Here's my postal mailing address:

Todd's' Costumes
PO Box 5196
Pine Mountain Club, CA 93222

Consider it done Todd.

I ll send you the swatch this week.

Indygr

Bartram · Post by **Bartram** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:29 am

I am so IN on a pair of these when they come to market.
Looks like the waiting will pay off for al of us.

Thanks Todd!

B

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:03 am

You also should take into account the research that Alkali Jones has done on the pants as he has a lot of useful info on them. The real pants did NOT have a waistband.

Alkali Jones has been a great help. I'm overwhelmed by the number of people who have been providing me with additional information, photos, and offers of help. It is very appreciated. We are pretty confident that we have a very good understanding now of the construction, lining colors and placement, waistband, etc. Noel made his trousers in much the same way, so having a pair on loan really helped us understand the photos.

Thank you to everyone who has offered assistance. It came at the perfect time.

Todd

frogman · Post by **frogman** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:17 am

Todd, are you making the pants in China?

franky jones · Post by **franky jones** » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:17 pm

wool pants please

Adirondack Jones · Post by **Adirondack Jones** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:28 pm

It's certainly looking like wool is going to be the winner, but, as one who pretty much lives everyday in 'digging clothes,' I'd like to see an Indy pant that I could wear everyday and not have to worry about having it dry-cleaned.

Erri · Post by **Erri** » Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:48 pm

Adirondack Jones wrote:It's certainly looking like wool is going to be the winner, but, as one who pretty much lives everyday in 'digging clothes,' I'd like to see an Indy pant that I could wear everyday and not have to worry about having it dry-cleaned.

Hope this won't be interpretated as unfriendly but here is my answer:

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/adventu ... -p-39.html

the 'Cotton' option should do

Choice of pants material