Club Obi Wan

I have one question: When the IndyGear.com main site updates are finally completed, will all this information concerning the true history of the Indy jacket be cataloged in the jacket section? _ seems to have a wealth of knowledge concerning this subject, much of which has either been forgotten by some or never even learned by others. And now I don't pretend to know the first thing about jackets, so I'm not looking to dispute any word of it, I'm just curious to see if the entire story of how the original jacket came about, how many were supposedly made for the film(s) and how the replicas of those originals came into existence years later will be chronicled for the gearhead community once the main site is finally updated. That might help some of the "degeneration" of the jacket forum here, if people (either longtime, forgetful gearheads, like myself, or relative newcomers who weren't around Indyfan back when the jacket hub-bub started) had a place where they could go and read through all the research and facts that have been compiled over the years, thanks to the hard work and passion of guys like _. I know much of what transpired is still contained int he vaults of the Indyfan forum, but the Indyfan archives seem to be offline, as I've had no luck accessing them for the last few months. So it might be nice if the "definitive history" (or as close as anyone can come to it) of the jacket is finally exhibited for all to see on the pages of the main site.

-GCR

The jacket worn by Ford in Temple is indeed a Raiders stunt jacket. I thought we'd pretty much determined that a bit ago? Long before I found Indygear I remember reading or seeing somewhere that Ford used leftover jackets from Raiders, yet they always looked different to me. After looking over the screen caps of Terry Leonard wearing the jacket it seems to be an exact match for a Raiders stunt jacket. Sewn up side vents and the VERY wide yoke say it all. That and all the distressing on the jacket which I'm guessing is mostly natural, if not all natural from being worn and used on Raiders.

Now, I noticed that when Ford did any stunts for Raiders and you can see the back panel of the jacket, it sometimes looks to be more waxy than in some scenes he's not doing the stunts. Could this mean anything? Maybe. Cold just be a more non-distressed Leather Concessionaries jacket. Who knows?

Agent5, I thought that too but the problem is that there are photos in which we can see that the screen TOD is the same jacket that NH has at his home. And Peter denied that he made that jacket. Therefore, how can that a the Rotla stunt jacket?

It's still a mystery.

Guys, I think that the originis of the TOD jacket and the other jackets is not the point as we will never gonna get our hands on them or even see them again.

I think, what we need to focus on, is the two-dimensional pictures that someone said before, by use of which we are going to be able to re-create the design and help the original maker make screen accurate jackets that will make the COW members happy.

_, don't mention it, no offense taken.

Michaelson wrote:

Rundquist wrote: Everyone has an “expert” opinion around here, but his is one of the few backed with research and fact. It’s amazing how quickly this place degenerated without him. . Cheers

Oh really? Well, then, I personally apologize to everyone here for putting out the information I, too, had received from direct participants in the past and posted here.

I guess we also completely discount the 10 jackets Deborah told MK about in his interview with her that were made by Wilson Leather for Western Costume as a backup, as they didn't believe Wested was going to deliver his jackets in time. As it turned out, he did deliver (as stated above, he made all 10 in one weekend for delivery to France), and those jackets were never accounted for back at Western Costume. It was also hinted at that time the Cooper was also approached as plan B in case Wilson failed. Did they actually make jackets? I have no clue. David Hack says so, and I've only posted his exact words.

So, forget all that. It really makes no difference anymore. I sure hope someone takes good notes on Indy 4. As you see, research done decades ago goes into the dumpster as time passes.


Carry on....
HIGH regards! Michaelson

My point was not to take a shot at you Mark. You should have considered yourself “one of the guys” whose opinion was backed with research and fact. I also did not mean to make light of the fact that you’ve been here on the board for years and have never left.

I guess my main point is that much of the info that many on the board are conjecturing about is known information. All you have to do is ask the right people. I’m also lamenting the fact that most of these people (the few with knowledge) don’t come around here anymore, not because they aren’t interested in the hobby anymore, but because the average fan on the board has no interest in the real story, or can’t be bothered to read the old posts that still exist, or won’t ask the right people questions. Michaelson is probably the only one of these people (with real information) that is still a regular on this board, but even he is of no use if you don’t utilize him for his knowledge.

PLATON wrote:I think, what we need to focus on, is the two-dimensional pictures that someone said before, by use of which we are going to be able to re-create the design and help the original maker make screen accurate jackets that will make the COW members happy.

You guys are lucky that Peter is making so much money off you or he’d probably tell you to take a long walk off a short pier. I know I would.

GCR wrote:I have one question: When the IndyGear.com main site updates are finally completed, will all this information concerning the true history of the Indy jacket be cataloged in the jacket section? _ seems to have a wealth of knowledge concerning this subject, much of which has either been forgotten by some or never even learned by others. And now I don't pretend to know the first thing about jackets, so I'm not looking to dispute any word of it, I'm just curious to see if the entire story of how the original jacket came about, how many were supposedly made for the film(s) and how the replicas of those originals came into existence years later will be chronicled for the gearhead community once the main site is finally updated. That might help some of the "degeneration" of the jacket forum here, if people (either longtime, forgetful gearheads, like myself, or relative newcomers who weren't around Indyfan back when the jacket hub-bub started) had a place where they could go and read through all the research and facts that have been compiled over the years, thanks to the hard work and passion of guys like _. I know much of what transpired is still contained int he vaults of the Indyfan forum, but the Indyfan archives seem to be offline, as I've had no luck accessing them for the last few months. So it might be nice if the "definitive history" (or as close as anyone can come to it) of the jacket is finally exhibited for all to see on the pages of the main site.

-GCR

That makes a lot of sense. There are many discussions on this board that just don’t need to happen. Cheers

I appreciate that, Adam. Thank you.

I do know this information is being assembled as we speak for the upgrade.

Regards! Michaelson

Well, since Wilson Leather(for Western Costume) and Cooper were on backup for the Indy jackets, and you say that they were most probably just modified A-2s,.....well, I think I huge thanks is in order to Peter, for not dropping the ball back in '80, and actually producing the 10 jackets in time for filming. If not, we'd all be running around in distressed A-2 jackets,......or not. The jacket we all love so dearly may have never been seen. Here's a very, very belated thanks to Peter, no matter WHO made jackets after him. The first was and always will be the best.
'Blues

_ was told they were modified A-2's. That's one I never heard myself, so once again, let's not muddy the water more than it already is. I had been told there were 3 sets of patterns floating around, so there's that for what it's worth.

Then again, go ahead if you want. Lots of muddy water around here anymore. As our good friend Adam Rundquist has said, after all this time, we'll never know for sure as the story gets spun with each new player, and each re-telling.

Personally, I'd put my money on _'s info myself.

Regard! Michaelson

_, Rundquist, Michaelson....does this thread remind you all of a certain time in Indy Gear history ? I don't think, in my opinion we will ever know how many jackets were made for this or that film or who they were really made by. The simple fact is that over the years the details of the film jackets have been tarnished by a certain person who has filled a lot of Indy fans with lies. Odds are good we will never have the ultimate Raiders/Indy jacket. Whatever that means since there is the Expedition which is a spot on copy of the screen used jacket worn by Terry Leonard which I feel is the same pattern as Ford's. That my friends is as close as you are going to get. I am standing by _ on this one folks. He is a man who has spent a bunch of his time really studying the Raiders jacket. Going so far as to find an actual screen used jacket, make as many noted and measurements as he could on it, and see it into production. If you want to know the real details and story of the Raiders jacket, talk to _, Lee, MK, Rundquist, four people I know, know more than I do about the jacket (s). _ I am glad to see you back in the jacket section my friend. Your are setting the record straight as far as I am concerned. Again, folks these are my opinions, now before another jacket war starts, I am going to state that again. Cheers _

Speaking of the ToD jacket. I noticed while doing some research a year or so ago that at least one of the jackets worn by Ford in ToD had the larger current style yoke, not the smaller Raiders style. However, I seem to remember a behind the scenes pic from Raiders of Leonard wearing a jacket with the larger yoke as well.

So many conflicting stories and and the waters so muddied who knows what the exact truth is...

Actually, Josh, the very first person who began to point out detail differences predates everyone you mention but Lee, and his name was Harry Smith (aka RaideroftheLostArk at Indyfan) of Brooklyn, New York.

No one believed him when he first pointed differences out. I hadn't thought of him for a long time, not until Mr. Weaver mentioned the yoke. I remember Harry going on and on about that yoke changing places from scene to scene. Even I thought he was nuts. Man, was I wrong.

I used to talk to Harry quite often...then he completely disappeared from the face of the earth. I never heard from him again, and it's been a decade or more since that occurred....but he was the pioneer when it comes to these debates, and personally I'll always give him the credit (or blame) of starting this whole jacket debate.

Regards! Michaelson

Wow, very interesting Michaelson. I guess we can rank Mr. Smith right up there with the guy that figured out you can split the atom, considering both has caused a lot of trouble.

That screen name does look familiar to me for some reason. Perhaps he was still around when I joined Indy Fan those years ago, about 8 years ago now. Anyway, that is a very valid point Michaelson, I did not remember him. Lee takes a lot of the credit for me really, he's the real pioneer in my eye as it were. However, you are the man of great wisdom which I have had the pleasure of witnessing said wisdom over the years so I must in turn take as always with appreciation....crazy run on sentence feeling. There have been several people I have always looked up to for knowing their stuff. Not to sound like I am sucking up folks, just making a statement here. However, people like you Michaelson, _, Rundquist and Lee who is not on the forum are some of those people. I have been mulling things over in my head about the whole Indy jacket history tonight. I have bee recalling the truths I know from people like _, Daniel Riser, MK, Lee Keppler, so on. For me I know what I know, that's it. Not everyone here knows the jacket history in full. Who's to say if it should be told. It's funny how a thread about the LC jacket has become this great jacket debate but oh well. For me, there are things based in hard evidence on one hand and sight and sound on the other. For me, the things based in real hard, physical evidence is what really counts. However, until the day comes when one of us gets to see every production receipt and gets our hands on a Raiders jacket Ford actually wore, the mystery may stay just that, a mystery. Now back to the LC jacket....

I think the LC jacket is a good looking jacket. The darker and stiffer leather looks really good, especially in the motorbike scenes. I have a ROTLA style because it is the jacket most people relate to, at least for me it is. As far as distressing and leather types on the LC jacket, it doesn't matter what you saw in the movie since you can get any leather you want (except goat for the time being) and collar size too. The extra 1" in the TOD jacket (as previously stated) is more than likely caused by HF sitting and how he wore his pants for the movie.

Speaking of the ToD jacket. I noticed while doing some research a year or so ago that at least one of the jackets worn by Ford in ToD had the larger current style yoke, not the smaller Raiders style. However, I seem to remember a behind the scenes pic from Raiders of Leonard wearing a jacket with the larger yoke as well.

I posted this earlier in this thread.

After looking over the screen caps of Terry Leonard wearing the jacket it seems to be an exact match for a Raiders stunt jacket. Sewn up side vents and the VERY wide yoke say it all.

Not everyone here knows the jacket history in full. Who's to say if it should be told.

Exactly the reason it SHOULD be told.

For me, there are things based in hard evidence on one hand and sight and sound on the other.

I think that's how everyone see's it.

For me, the things based in real hard, physical evidence is what really counts. However, until the day comes when one of us gets to see every production receipt and gets our hands on a Raiders jacket Ford actually wore, the mystery may stay just that, a mystery.

Well, the real trick is getting access, isn't it? We're all going to speculate when we can't even get ahold of the evidence. Of course we're going to have some out-there ideas. I hate to see people ripping anyone for posting opinions over any of the jackets. Withouth the aid of the actual jackets, that's all we have.

_ wrote:Find the jacket that makes you happy – without killing yourself and alienating everyone along the way. Make it your jacket. Keep it for years. Who knows – maybe someday people will be trying to recreate it!

-GCR

_ wrote:.....but my part in the jacket's debate over the years needs to be credited/blamed on Michaelson. He gave me a very sly introduction to Lee one day and pointed this bull right into the china shop...

Who? ME? COME now, old friend....would I do a thing like that? 8-[

Regards! Michaelson

You know what this means. We need access to the main hero jacket from Raiders, which may be the Deborah Nadoolman prototype. It'll still be out there somewhere, perhaps in a private collector's display, but most likely in Lucas' archives.

_, Michaelson, you should film a documentary about your search for the original. With a digital film crew standing behind you, I'd bet you'd get more access than normal.

SD

"Find the jacket that makes you happy – without killing yourself and alienating everyone along the way. Make it your jacket. Keep it for years. Who knows – maybe someday people will be trying to recreate it!"

_


Now----Here (above) are words to live by! Bravo, _!!!

So, as you can see, St. Dumas, the folks you would have wanted to follow around with a camera would have been _ and MK.

If you filmed me, all you'd have seen was me at a PC keyboard, reading books, and on the phone........................................for hours.................and hours................

Think about the old 'Charlie's Angels' television show.

I was 'Charlie'.

Regards! Michaelson

Oh dear.....

Regards! Michaelson

I am starting to think that the number of hats below our nickname in COW should not be according to how many posts we have written but according to how many jackets we have in our closet.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the hats to indicate how many HATS we have in our closet? In which case, I'd need a page just for hat icons!