Why don't people like the LC jacket?

Castor Dioscuri · Post by **Castor Dioscuri** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:40 pm

Out of curiousity, I keep reading about people getting a Raiders (because it is the first) or a ToD (because of the length)... But hardly anybody seems to want to get a LC, despite it being Wested's most screen accurate of three without mods (from what I've read).

Anyone know why the majority seems to shy away from the LC jacket?

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:59 pm

because its not tod and that was the best movie!!!

actually, for leather jackets i think raiders takes the cake for all the attention around here. tod is just a very very very close second for the most ignored

its my opinion that lc is not as researched because there's not as much mystery to the gear as in raiders. lc was the most recent so people's minds are still fresh with what the gear looked like, who made it, what size the pockets were, etc. i mean...can anyone produce a picture of the raiders hat today?

Doug C · Post by **Doug C** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:04 am

Just my opinion of course, but to me it's not really that I don't like the LC jacket but I like the other too more. And I think it has something do with the fact (well it's not a fact I guess) that Indy looks less trim or athletic in it, it fits Ford more generously, has a roomier cut to it and also I never liked the way it looks too thick in the motorcycle scenes. Also, it's concensous around here that a poor job was done on the distressing of the movie jacket. So I think the LC movie sells it that way while the reality of a recently made LC jacket is not necessarily overly room or too thick looking and certainly not poorly distressed. Also, a lot of people here have a dislike of the larger pockets on the LC jacket.

Doug C

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:02 am

For me the larger collar put me off. If I could choose a screen accurate jacket, it would be the temple of doom jacket as I think it looks the best fitting and cut. In my opinion, the cut of all the westeds is generally most like the LC jacket, and I think once Peter makes his new 'screen accurate' jackets avaliable I think i'll buy one, as I think the cut is a bit too generous on 'normal' westeds (for all 3 types).

Indiana Max · Post by **Indiana Max** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:49 am

LC is my favorite movie (and Raiders) and so on the LC jacket is my favorite.
I don´t know why, but nobody is going in for LC

indy89 · Post by **indy89** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:45 am

I like the pockets on the LC jacket, they seem really roomy.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:50 am

Indiana G wrote:because its not tod and that was the best movie!!!

Word!

As for me, I agree with what has been posted above... Elvis-collar and an artificial-looking distressing job is what speaks against the LC jacket.

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:38 pm

hey strider, looks like we've got scandinavia jones joining our fight against the thuggee cult!!! go fill up the skull chalice and we'll get SJ initiated properly

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:41 pm

No Black Sleep of Kali for me, please... I drive to work, you see.

J_Weaver · Post by **J_Weaver** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:54 pm

The LC jacket doesn't have the "cool" factor of the Raidres jacket for me. IMO, the jacket has a differant and somewhat baggy look to it that I don't care for.

VP · Post by VP » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:57 pm

Indiana G wrote:hey strider, looks like we've got scandinavia jones joining our fight against the thuggee cult!!! go fill up the skull chalice and we'll get SJ initiated properly

Swindy and ÄssäJii were fighting long before you two even joined COW.

Scandinavia Jones wrote:Elvis-collar and an artificial-looking distressing job is what speaks against the LC jacket.

Ditto.

whipwarrior · Post by **whipwarrior** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:47 pm

Personally, I think the Last Crusade jacket is the ULTIMATE Indy jacket, and I would take it over the Raiders/ToD jacket any day. Yes, the collar is large (but it provides an excellent wind buffer), and it is over-distressed (but still WAY cool-looking, IMHO), but that's what makes it unique. The Last Crusade in HH is the best!

)

independent · Post by **independent** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:07 pm

TOD and LC Jackets are severely underrated.

TOD: One inch longer would probably make the jacket look better for 98% of the people here. Looks a bit more masculine than the raiders too.

LC: no, I don't like the collar or loose fit either, but the distressing is unique and pretty spectacular.

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:24 pm

I happen to really like the distressed look of the LC jacket. I'm not sure about the collar being bigger, but I think the LC jacket is pretty cool.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:51 pm

Indiana Kev wrote:I'm not sure about the collar being bigger

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:05 pm

Whoops, I wasn't clear with that post.

Let me be clear on that statement, I know the collar is bigger, I just meant that I wasn't sure if I liked the bigger collar.

I don't know why I'm fighting it, Indiana G bring on the Black sleep of Kali!

Indiana G · Post by **Indiana G** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:47 pm

Swindy and ÄssäJii were fighting long before you two even joined COW.

looks like someone needs to be whipped before we make them drink.....don't want vp spitting it back at me

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:08 pm

Dre wrote:For me the larger collar put me off. If I could choose a screen accurate jacket, it would be the temple of doom jacket as I think it looks the best fitting and cut. In my opinion, the cut of all the westeds is generally most like the LC jacket, and I think once Peter makes his new 'screen accurate' jackets avaliable I think i'll buy one, as I think the cut is a bit too generous on 'normal' westeds (for all 3 types).

The collar is only large if you are a small build person

Magnum Jones · Post by **Magnum Jones** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:41 pm

I like them all.

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Magnum Jones wrote:I like them all.

Same here. I've got nothing against the LC jacket, in fact, I'd love to own one someday. But Raiders is my favorite, so I always go for that look when I buy gear. Once I finally have my ideal collection of Raiders gear (including jacket) I'll move on to the other two movies.

-GCR

Cowboy · Post by **Cowboy** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:28 pm

Scandinavia Jones wrote:
Indiana Kev wrote:I'm not sure about the collar being bigger

What is the real diference in width? Some of these pic look the same as ROTLA IMO Are we sure that it was not the same old multiple jackets syndrome for the movie?

Captain D · Post by **Captain D** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:39 pm

I realize that this is off topic a bit, but what is this new "authentic" jacket that Peter is putting together? Is it the aged lambskin look? Or newer specs in order to help make it more screen-accuate/standard? Or both?

GCR · Post by **GCR** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:43 pm

Cowboy wrote:
Scandinavia Jones wrote:
Indiana Kev wrote:I'm not sure about the collar being bigger

What is the real diference in width? Some of these pic look the same as ROTLA IMO Are we sure that it was not the same old multiple jackets syndrome for the movie?

Good question. There were doubtlessly multiple jackets used during the filming of each movie, but I'd tend to doubt that any of the jackets from Raiders or ToD made their way into the costume heap for LC. I wouldn't doubt that there were quite a few jackets made specifically for LC and that certain features / specs might be different from jacket to jacket. So that might very well be the multiple jacket syndrome you speak of.

Another thing that I noticed is that the pic comparison above doesn't actually show the ToD jacket collar on the lefthand side...the collar in that pic is the shirt, I believe.

-GCR

Indiana Cromeens · Post by **Indiana Cromeens** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:49 am

The LC jacket is my favorite all the way! I love the distressing job and the fit. I know alot of members here have an extreme raiders bias to the point that they almost hate TOD/LC in almost all things gear-related. There are things that I like about all 3 incantations of Indy's gear, and in the end its all about what the wearer wants, if its not necessarily 100% screen accurate by the set standards of the nit pickers, don't worry, as long as you feel good about your choice of gear, which is why we have so many choices these days and we should be thankful for all of the options that we have available thanks to COW.

Dre · Post by **Dre** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:16 am

Speaking of screen accuracy for different indy movies, what's the closest screen accurate jacket to the TOD? The TOD jacket that wested offers has a fit like the LC jacket (as does the raiders jacket i beleive), collar like the raiders and extra length. The pockets, at least on mine, are LC size I think. The real TOD jacket should be slimmer fitting and have a different shape.

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:53 am

GCR wrote:Another thing that I noticed is that the pic comparison above doesn't actually show the ToD jacket collar on the lefthand side...the collar in that pic is the shirt, I believe.

Thanks for pointing that out, GCR... pic edited accordingly.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:18 pm

_ wrote:Most of the jackets used in ToD were extra jackets made for Raiders. There is no difference because they were made for the same movie.

Wait a minute... _, the TOD jacket in many scenes does appear to be longer than the Raiders jacket, especially in the elephant scenes. Is that because the new (longer) jacket was being used in such scenes, or are our eyes tricking us? Indy's jacket in Raiders never appears to be that length.

SD

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:39 pm

St. Dumas wrote:
_ wrote:Most of the jackets used in ToD were extra jackets made for Raiders. There is no difference because they were made for the same movie.
Wait a minute... _, the TOD jacket in many scenes does appear to be longer than the Raiders jacket, especially in the elephant scenes. Is that because the new (longer) jacket was being used in such scenes, or are our eyes tricking us? Indy's jacket in Raiders never appears to be that length.

SD

Ford is obviously not wearing the same jacket from Raiders. That doesn’t mean that the one that he wore in TOD wasn’t a left over “Raiders” production jacket. Cheers

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:19 pm

Rundquist wrote:Ford is obviously not wearing the same jacket from Raiders. That doesn’t mean that the one that he wore in TOD wasn’t a left over “Raiders” production jacket. Cheers

But that doesn't address the length issue. Either the jacket in those TOD elephant scenes was longer than the jacket in Raiders or it wasn't, and the leftover jackets from Raiders wouldn't have been longer than the film-used Raiders jackets.

Much of the info on this website says the TOD jacket was longer. I'm trying to reconcile that with the recent comments on COW about the TOD jacket being Raiders leftovers. I think even the TOD jacket in the Mayapore scenes looks longer than the Raiders jacket.

SD

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:39 pm

St. Dumas wrote:
Rundquist wrote:Ford is obviously not wearing the same jacket from Raiders. That doesn’t mean that the one that he wore in TOD wasn’t a left over “Raiders” production jacket. Cheers
But that doesn't address the length issue. Either the jacket in those TOD elephant scenes was longer than the jacket in Raiders or it wasn't, and the leftover jackets from Raiders wouldn't have been longer than the film-used Raiders jackets.

Much of the info on this website says the TOD jacket was longer. I'm trying to reconcile that with the recent comments on COW about the TOD jacket being Raiders leftovers. I think even the TOD jacket in the Mayapore scenes looks longer than the Raiders jacket.

SD

It wasn’t supposed to address the length issue. Chances are that if the TOD jacket that Ford wore were a leftover Raiders jacket, it wouldn’t be one of the “hero jackets” that Ford used. Those were destroyed in filming or went “elsewhere”. They just picked one from the leftovers that was deemed “good enough”. Why wouldn’t the jacket be longer, especially if it was someone else’s to begin with? Cheers

CM · Post by CM » Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:57 pm

I like the LC jacket almost as much as the ROTLA version. I like the thicker looking leather a great deal although the distressing job was pretty ordinary.

However, I hate LC as a movie. Corny and awfully try hard.

Sue me.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:46 pm

When I wear my Raider's Wested, it looks shorter when I stand vs when I am sitting. Do we ever see Ford sitting in the open in Raiders with his jacket on? Imagine how short it would look if I were hunched over sitting up on top of an elephant. That was how he hurt his back and ended up back in the US for 6 weeks for back surgery...

OK, I have made up my mind about what's going on with the jackets here.
But for the younger members who are asking a lot of questions...

Standing or sitting may affect how we see the length of the jacket, but does it affect the size of the pockets? Probably not. Recently we were discussing that in TOD HF was wearing Terry Leonard's jacket from Rotla. We reached to this conclusion basis the back pleats extending below the side straps down to half way of the side vents (not been sewn there).

There were photographic evidence of that. Also, NH is the owner of a screen used jacket which Wested admits they did not make. We see this jacket on the plane and at the last scene of the movie (some defects of the collar justify it is the same one) So it is Terry Leonard's jacket and the same one owned by NH, but still is not a jacket made by Wested.

So we may have a new theory. Terry Leonard's jacket in Rotla was made by US wings (St Hack insists his jackets were in the movie) and that same jacket was worn by HF at TOD and is now in the possession of NH.
Why would Peter Botwright make the hero and stuntman's jacket with different size pockets? What's the use? So maybe that's the US wings jacket people talk about.

The answer is simple. Some member of COW living in London visit NH and examine the jacket. What does the label say?

Scandinavia Jones · Post by **Scandinavia Jones** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:07 pm

The label says "Bermans & Nathans". There's probably a number on there, and the name of the wearer (Ford? Stunt dude?) too.

http://www.jones-jr.com/cost_veste.html

Scroll down for the pics of the screen-used LC jacket in Gary Kurtz' collection and the Noel Howard jacket. The labels are similar.

I'd be surprised if the sub-contractor's company name was on there too. The jacket was mainly a product of B&N, as the company putting it together only acted on their behalf.

St. Dumas · Post by **St. Dumas** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:59 pm

Not that anything turns on it, but the Gary Kurtz LC jacket can't be a screen-used hero jacket. The collar configuration is wrong. Compare the collar/collar stand/snap configuration in the Kurtz jacket photos with the Smithsonian LC jacket pictured below and the Connery-Ford publicity photo above. The Ford LC jacket has the snap below the collar stand on the side opposite the storm flap, and the collar stand is higher and folds over, giving the collar its larger look. Plus, the collar stand doesn't extend onto the storm flap on Ford's jacket, but does on Kurtz' jacket. The Smithsonian one looks to be the real deal.

Bogie1943 · Post by **Bogie1943** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:41 pm

I agree with _ on some of the points. I have always been a FS supporter because I know the true story (standing behind you _). It is possible that there were some left over jackets from Raiders used in TOD but I am not so sure on the hero jackets. It's not the length for me, it's the pocket size. To me the pockets on the TOD jackets always looked tiny compared to Raiders. Especially on the NH jacket. I am not sure why if anybody dislikes the LC jacket, I like them all personally. The Raiders jacket is my favorite because it was the first, original jacket I saw. As for the Raiders jacket, the closest you are going to get to the original is the Expedition. Granted that is my opinion and nothing more. As for the TOD and LC jackets, I like them as well, in terms of staying on topic here. I do not own a Wested replica of either the TOD or LC so I can not compare those replicas in a hands on manner. Raiders on the other hand I do own both replicas of and can make a comparison. ( FS & Wested) Ranting to an end, I like the LC jacket as well as the others.

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:51 am

Terry had three jackets during the making of RotLA. He was given a new one after successively destroying one. Two jackets were destroyed - one of which I examined. The third and final jacket that he was given he still owns. All of them were made by Leather Concessionaires... I've confirmed this with Terry through a mutual acquaintance - Terry and I used to work-out at the same gym... I've actually talked to the man. According to him, there were no “stunt” vs. “hero” jackets, except for the original jacket made as a prototype for Deborah Nadoolman. HF did wear that jacket for most of the movie.

Dear _, thanks for your post. Of course I do not know these facts. I am just saying that in the photographs the jacket we see in the making of Rotla looks like the jacket in TOD. Has the same pocket size and back pleats configuration.

Now you are really out there my friend… Sgt. Hack has NEVER claimed to have made screen-used jackets. I’ve spent hours on the phone with him when we were discussing modifying their jacket based on my examination of the screen-used jacket of Terry’s. US Wings bought a company that had originally licensed the jacket from LucasFilms in anticipation of ToD (in 1983 - 2 years after RotLA was released). Now I suppose it is possible some of these licensed jackets could have found their way into ToD. Stetson licensed rights to make the fedora, and part of the deal did include “product placement”, but that was all publicized. If a company were able to get their jacket on screen, we would have heard it – from them! Especially if they had the license. Sorry, but this smells of more “made-up history.”

Then perhaps I need to refresh your memory. Read below from Michaelson

Just received this email from Sgt. Hack at U. S. Wings, posted here with his permission, and verbim...Direct quote....

Okay M....
You remember very well!!Yes we tried to make Todd happy and changed the direction of the straps... Our Jacket had the straps facing backwards.
Harrison Ford wore a US Wings I.E. Cooper Jacket.. www.cooper-jackets.com www.cooperjackets.com
I was the money man for Neil Cooper until He went online and I pulled the Plug on Cooper... He is no longer in business.
Yes that is one of our Jackets seen in the Truck Chase...Worn by Harrison Ford...
Now for some more news.. All of the VIPs at Disney own a US Wings Indy Jacket along with some heavy weights world wide...
Have you ever played Golf.... Drive for show.. Or put in the hole for money!!... Our Jackets for the money are the best in the world...
And the real thing.
Sarge
PS You can post!!!

unquote.

Well, mull that over...

Regards! Michaelson

Let me repeat his phrase

Yes that is one of our Jackets seen in the Truck Chase...Worn by Harrison Ford...

Something I'd like people to notice. I'm basing my opinions and assertions on evidence of actually talking to people who would know. I'm not limiting myself to sreeen-grabs and conjecture. A lot of work has gone into pulling together the histories behind this stuff, as Michaelson, Lee, MK, and others can attest. There are different motivations at work that I hope are transparent to most - a desire to know what actually happened (which is the real interesting story) vs. a desire for attention (so somebody just makes things up)...

I appreciate this. Meantime, I am basing all my opinions on photographs, screen caps and common sense. I am not trying to convince anyone (no profit from that), we 're just discussing.

But the important thing is, we're on the same team.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:09 am

Yep, he said that recently. I can't speak to his smoking rope, though.

Regards! Michaelson

PLATON · Post by **PLATON** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:25 am

LOL, Manila rope?

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:03 am

_ wrote:
Michaelson wrote:Yep, he said that recently. I can't speak to his smoking rope, though.

Regards! Michaelson
Not to put anybody else on the spot - and exposed to the wrath of David - but do you buy it?

Really? So, why did you ask?

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:11 am

The jacket worn by Ford in Temple is indeed a Raiders stunt jacket. I thought we'd pretty much determined that a bit ago? Long before I found Indygear I remember reading or seeing somewhere that Ford used leftover jackets from Raiders, yet they always looked different to me. After looking over the screen caps of Terry Leonard wearing the jacket it seems to be an exact match for a Raiders stunt jacket. Sewn up side vents and the VERY wide yoke say it all. That and all the distressing on the jacket which I'm guessing is mostly natural, if not all natural from being worn and used on Raiders.

Now, I noticed that when Ford did any stunts for Raiders and you can see the back panel of the jacket, it sometimes looks to be more waxy than in some scenes he's not doing the stunts. Could this mean anything? Maybe. Cold just be a more non-distressed Leather Concessionaries jacket. Who knows?

The recent US Wings quote had me thinking that maybe they did the jacket Ford used for stunts only. If he was to be doing a stunt there would definitely be a very strong chance he'd have a jacket specifically for that alone. One for every time he'd do a stunt and another which was his main, hero jacket. I'm sure others got mixed in as well, but we know for most of the film, one jacket was worn.

On the length of the jacket, I have to go completely with _ on this and say it may have been a created myth. If not, a very simple explanation is that Terry Leonard may be an inch or two taller than Ford. Hence, the extra inch or two.

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:20 pm

Was the original prototype the only real Hero jacket in RotLA?

I've mentioned this before and I think it could be true. It's obvious at least 3 different jackets were used in Raiders but he basically had one he wore in most scenes which can be called a Hero since it's most worn.

Indiana Kev · Post by **Indiana Kev** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:26 pm

I think the idea of one hero jacket makes a lot of sense.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:05 pm

I have to say that the jacket section is much more interesting with _ around. Everyone has an “expert” opinion around here, but his is one of the few backed with research and fact. It’s amazing how quickly this place degenerated without him. There’s some cockamamie stuff floating around this board that’s for sure. Most of the facts can be found in the “Indyfan” archives for those of you that are interested. Cheers

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:09 pm

She hand-aged it by the pool with Harrison's Swiss Army knife, then placed an order for 48 more.

Peter only claims to have made 10, and all of those in one weekend. Isn't the 48 figure the grand total for the 3 films?

With the observable differences in jackets within only 10 jackets, I'd easily buy the prototype/hero jacket theory. It seems no two were exactly alike.

Rundquist · Post by **Rundquist** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:13 pm

That so called “hero” jacket is as lost as the ark was at the end of Raiders. You guys are never going to be able to examine that mythical “hero” jacket. I know everyone believes that they possess the magic eye that is going to enable someone to produce the ultimate screen jacket (from a two dimensional image), but it aint gonna happen. Live with it. Cheers

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:17 pm

That so called “hero” jacket is as lost as the ark was at the end of Raiders

I thought that maybe that was the one Ford kept since it's the one he spent the most time with on the film in character. Of course, we'll never know.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:22 pm

I've also been told the total was 21 - a prototype, 10 RotLA and 10 LC... Notice nothing for ToD

Very interesting...

I thought that maybe that was the one Ford kept since it's the one he spent the most time with on the film in character. Of course, we'll never know.

I'd buy that theory. I wouldn't be so pessimistic. The truth is out there... someday perhaps the planets might align and someone will be given access to the sacred jacket.

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:27 pm

Rundquist wrote: Everyone has an “expert” opinion around here, but his is one of the few backed with research and fact. It’s amazing how quickly this place degenerated without him. . Cheers

Oh really?

Well, then, I personally apologize to everyone here for putting out the information I, too, had received from direct participants in the past and posted here.

I guess we also completely discount the 10 jackets Deborah told MK about in his interview with her that were made by Wilson Leather for Western Costume as a backup, as they didn't believe Wested was going to deliver his jackets in time. As it turned out, he did deliver (as stated above, he made all 10 in one weekend for delivery to France), and those jackets were never accounted for back at Western Costume. It was also hinted at that time the Cooper was also approached as plan B in case Wilson failed. Did they actually make jackets? I have no clue. David Hack says so, and I've only posted his exact words.

So, forget all that. It really makes no difference anymore. I sure hope someone takes good notes on Indy 4. As you see, research done decades ago goes into the dumpster as time passes.

Carry on....
HIGH regards! Michaelson

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:31 pm

I know everyone believes that they possess the magic eye that is going to enable someone to produce the ultimate screen jacket (from a two dimensional image), but it aint gonna happen.

I think I have a pretty good track record with my "magic eye". I make a living making accurate replicas from two-dimensional images. Come visit sometime and I'll show you one of my Gladiators or Xenas. It can be done.

Puppetboy · Post by **Puppetboy** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:38 pm

Anyway, the rumor was George snagged the hero jacket and has it hidden away.

Oh, Brother! If George took it then it might just BE as lost as the ark! It's probably hanging on that rack in the warehouse, getting man-handled by every guy with a video camera that manages to get in there...