Club Obi Wan

Posted: **Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:06 pm**

I think the point is being completely missed here. I don't think it's an attack against Sergie

Exactly. To me, this is not even about Serg. It's about how this is all represented in the auction. Serg did all he could for verification and in my eyes, did a darn good job of it. Very comprehensive. It's also very, very clear that Serg knows his stuff. No doubting that at all. It's the way the auction reads to me that's in question. Serg can only do so much and it's apparent he's not the one selling this.

Now, $40,000 is a helluva lot of money. If I were to do heavy research and came across this, I'd be worried about putting down that kind of money.

Was it actually in the movie? Well the age, the manufacture of the whip are true to the late 70's, early 80's bullwhips being made by David Morgan. Glenn Randall Jr. says that it was so. But based on the heavy use of this whip, the dimensions, it's certainly a safe bet.

When putting down $40,000, I'd want to hear that it's beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no question. None whatsoever.

My only other question which Doc pointed out above is why can't provenance be sent directly from those directly involved with owning the whip? The initial post says that letters from all parties connected the dots, so why in the world would at least copies of those not be part of this auction??? Instead we see a COA from Indygear? Not only that, but Indygear was completely misrepresented. It says,

A signed Certificate of Authenticity by Walt "Sergei" Rybinski - the staff expert on Bullwhips for the equipment and Indiana Jones Movie company "Indygear" who analyzed this whip in March 2002.

I CANNOT be the only one here who finds this to be completely misleading to one who has no idea what Indygear really is.

The bottom line here is that we all know Serg is an expert on the subject and did all he could have done and the real reason this is even coming to conversation is that the auction is slightly askew in it's representation. After re-reading the initial post I'm quite certain it is what it is, but the fact remains that the way it reads out in the description and the way the auction plays out it's provenance is not what it could or should be.

Posted: **Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:04 pm**

I disagree. It was a slam against Sergie.

Posted: **Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:24 pm**

It was not a slam against Sergie i think..., the man who bid on the whip just wants an official certificate or proof or letter from organisum, people or production that was involved in the movie ! and i understand him !

i was in the "same" situation last year, i wanted to sold some original Star Wars props i bring back from Tunisia, i took pieces from the sets and of course i have no official word or certificate for them ! just pics....

Posted: **Sat Jan 01, 2005 3:18 pm**

I disagree. It was a slam against Sergie.

Anyone who knows Austin knows he's... ...outspoken. Very verbal in his opinions. This is true. There are many here who dislike him with passion. However, I'd like to stray from the petty name calling arguements and get to the real matter of this post.

THE WHIP.

Austin may have said a few nasty things to Serg which could have easily stayed off this board, but for some reason it did not. SO, can we now focus on the true matter instead of who said what to who and who you are in 'support of'? Can we now, 'move along'?

I'd like to now center our thoughts on the description of the whip. Any other opinions on the auction or the whip? Am I the only one who knows Indygear is NOT a movie company? Are there really only a handful of people who think the whip should have the documentation of the former owners included in the auction with Serg's info as an added bonus?

Serg, I really hope you get your steak dinner out of this.

Make it a porterhouse, please. Slightly bloody.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:26 am**

I noticed that “Movie company” description also, and while its speculation I hope that it was a just misunderstanding by someone who didn’t quite realize what the Indygear site was about. It should be cleared up.

Still, You’re right Agent5, This whip could certainly use more documentation, especially for the price it is asking. It would clear up a lot of questions and It would only help to validate the authenticity of the bullwhip... Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20 and throughout the history of this piece, no one seemed to know any better until more recent years what a important item they had. Call me crazy, (and you wouldn’t be the first

) but knowing what I know and seeing the documentation provided, if I had the funds I would still bid.

All the best.

Dan

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 10:48 am**

Coming in late in the conversation, all I'll say is that anything Sergei EVER says regarding items or topics that interest him, in this case whips, that I will accept with NO question, and know that I can take any and all facts he provides to the bank. The title 'expert' is given to an individual by those who deal with them on a regular basis, and KNOW where he/she obtain their facts and research. There are several true experts here at Indygear, in EVERY sense of the word. Sergei, in my book, is one of these, and his name can be found listed in the dictionary description.

There....I've had my say, and counted to 3.

You may now return to the topic.

Regards. Michaelson

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:07 pm**

Thanks to all for the support. I appreciate it.

I wanted to post my notes on the measurement of this whip. I didn't post the notes at the time of my original findings - it was out of respect for David Morgan. But I thought I would share this now. Examine the sketch below. My handwritten notes have two measurements in each key area. The left number was the Raiders whip. The right hand number is of current Morgan whips. The current number is usually higher, with the exception of the handle length (from bottom to top of handle junction knot) , which was 8 inches.

The whip measured for Raiders varied even for that era. But in general you can conclude that the laces were narrower, the thong diameter in general was narrower and the handle length was longer compared to current production whips. For the whipmakers, this should be an obvious statement. Those percise measurements of the laces will be hard to duplicate due to the variable stretch of the roo hide. So when the final pull occurs, the lace width narrows- and it stretches unpredicatably depending on the hide location. Hence the dilemma. Of course those with highly developed plaiting skills should overcome this.

-Sergei
p.s. In addition, I make no value judgements against the current production Morgan. David unconsicously evolved his bullwhip design to make it more robust and hardy. His intention was to sell his bullwhips to working professionals - stunt professionals, professional entertainers and cattle men. The professionals required a reliable performing whip, hence the evolution. My preference is for the current production model. However saying that, I know that folks have more screen accurate prefrences.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:55 pm**

Being a fervent believer in capitalism my opinion on the matter of this whip being up for auction lines up with Jerry R.'s comments well enough that they do not bear repeating.

I do agree that the whole IndyGear as a "film company" statement is definitely misleading and should be re-examined by the seller.

ex•pert

n.
A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

adj.
Having, involving, or demonstrating great skill, dexterity, or knowledge as the result of experience or training.

Comments made on another board regarding the seller's use of Sergei's involvement, his qualifications and the merit of his documentation are definitely poignant but were also provocative in execution. As someone who knows Sergei personally and holds his knowledge and expertise in high esteem I do not question his historical findings and technical documentation regarding the pedigree of this David Morgan 'Raiders' whip. However, if I were in the position to purchase this whip and did not know Sergei and the true mission of IndyGear I would be wholly justified in questioning the validity of said documentation. This fact should be examined by the seller and a signed COA from either Lucasfilm or Glenn Randall Jr. should be obtained to bolster the seller's claims which, in turn, would only be enhanced by Sergei's exhaustive research and demonstrable expertise.

Furthermore, I am truly ashamed of some of the people who have, over the years, come to this particular forum and gained great insight and knowledge about whips from Sergei for their own personal enlightenment but are now questioning his credentials because a price tag has been attached by another party. I do not see this same disrespect afforded to Fedora who has turned his hat expertise, gained from a decades old hobby, into a burgeoning online business. Something to think about.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:01 pm**

Wow! I still don't think the point is fully understood here. It can be taken that Austin said that "No fan is an expert", but what it being said is no fan is an expert from Lucasfilm. What is so hard to understand about that. If I had the smallest whip question pertaining to the Raiders bullwhip(the film whip, not the one in the auction, whether it be legit or not)
I wouldn't hesitate in the least to ask Sergei. To me, and to many others, he IS the most knowledgable person in respect to the Indy whips, if not all whips.

The fact of the matter is, there is a person selling a whip on Ebay, that is saying it is from the Raiders film, and was used on the set. Now, thats all fine and dandy, but let's look at the big picture, shall we??

There is proof that the whip is in fact a DM whip, made in the same time period as the Raiders film whips. Correct?? Now, we have documentation verifying this signed by our very own Sergie. Sergie knows this to be true, and to tell the truth, I believe he is correct.
The whip was made during that time frame, because of it's style and design. Thats fine too. Does anyone know how many whips DM made like this during that time period??

I am shocked and bewildered, that all of the folks at IndyGear, aren't being more subjective, when it comes to someone selling a piece of movie memorabilia, that is so near and dear to our hearts. Wouldn't we all WANT to know that this is legit...for the sake of IndyGear history??
I sure want to know.

Sergie did nothing wrong in this whole ordeal, and I feel bad that he is even being looked at in this light. Fact of the matter, this really has nothing to do with Sergie. He put his knowledge of the Raiders whip to good use. Now, someone else is using his documentation, to aid in their auction. It's already been stated above, that if DM, or Glenn Randall had some input on this, we would all be able to rest assured, that this is indeed, THE Raiders creen used whip. Fact is, I can't buy it, and most folks here can't either, for that price. But I bet dollars to donut holes, every fan here hopes that it is the real deal.
'Blues

BTW, Why the H.E. Double hocky sticks are you bringing Fedoras name into this, Edge??? Fedora has never stated he made any hats from Raiders, or sold any hats to Lucaslfilm. Let's keep Fedora out of this debacle.

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:06 pm**

I'm wondering why Lucasfilm has not attached a COA to this whip??

Sergei's word is good as far as I am concerned, but what about someone outside of the COW domain that has no idea who he is?

Posted: **Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:46 pm**

The price is outrageous. Period.

You can buy "hero" props from many, many, many films for far, far, far less.

Now, those movies aren't Raiders, agreed, but on a sliding scale, this is still way, way, way off the radar in terms of realistic prices.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:10 am**

Riverwind wrote:I'm wondering why Lucasfilm has not attached a COA to this whip??

Probably because they don't have anyone who still works there that could verify it. Glen Randall and Faye are probably the ones who can verify the story best in terms of a documentation of the whip's history. I for one believe Sergei and take his word for it, as well as Mark's, but I have to agree with Riverwind in respect to someone outside of COW. They don't know Sergei's qualifications if they've never heard of him or been to COW. I know if I didn't know of Sergei's reputation and was contemplating paying $40,000 for the whip, I'd want a COA from Glenn Randall Jr. I'm just putting myself in someone else's shoes because if I were going to buy a Star Wars prop or any movie prop for that matter of the same caliber, I'd want a COA from the original owner verifying it as an actual prop. No offense of this is meant toward Mark or Sergei and I hope none is taken, I'm just putting myself in the buyer's position.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:13 am**

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:
Riverwind wrote:I'm wondering why Lucasfilm has not attached a COA to this whip??
Probably because they don't have anyone who still works there that could verify it. Glen Randall and Faye are probably the ones who can verify the story best. I for one believe Sergei and take his word for it, as well as Mark's, but I have to agree with Riverwind in respect to someone outside of COW. They don't know Sergei's qualifications if they've never heard of him or been to COW. I know if I didn't know of Sergei's reputation and was contemplating paying $40,000 for the whip, I'd want a COA from Glenn Randall Jr. I'm just putting myself in someone else's shoes because if I were going to buy a Star Wars prop or any movie prop for that matter of the same caliber, I'd want a COA from the original owner verifying it as an actual prop. No offense of this is meant toward Mark or Sergei and I hope none is taken, I'm just putting myself in the buyer's position.

You nailed it! I think a lot of people posting to this thread are entirely missing the points you just stated...

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 12:41 am**

I think that the people that are complaining about the price are just mad that it is out of their price range. Maybe the owner is just not willing to sell for less than that and would rather keep it himself instead of selling for less. It is his choice. He did keep it for 15 years or so.

As far as the price, $40,000 is chump change for some people. Unfortunately, I'm not in that select group. What did Wayne Gretzky pay for that Honus Wagner baseball card? He paid $450,000 and that was more than ten years ago. I don't know what that would be in today's dollars if it was adjusted for inflation. Why? Because he wanted it and the price the owner wanted to sell it for was in HIS price range.

If the price is too high, or you are unsure of the authenticity of this whip, you can always go buy a screen used whip from Raiders of the Lost Ark from somebody else.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:07 am**

Bufflehead Jones wrote:I think that the people that are complaining about the price are just mad that it is out of their price range.

That's totally irrelevant to this topic...Just because someone mentions the price of something does not mean they can't afford it...

I feel the reason people are asking questions about the price of the whip is due to the fact of its documentation...Who can actually say that this whip WAS used on screen? Who can really say it was not, or was simply used for practice? Unless LucasFilms cataloged all of the screen used props that were in the movies and offered a COA of their own, there is really no 100% way of know for sure...

You're right in saying that $40K is not a lot of money to some people, but even if it isn't, does that mean they will needlessly spend it on a prop that does not have more concrete authentication? I mean seriously, who is Sergei to a buyer outside of COW?

I have seen several movie props go for a whole lot more money then this one...They have been offered for sell by other auction houses, but they also have very firm documentation and credentials to back up their claim...If the seller was actually interested in selling this item, I really feel he should have looked else where, other than eBay...With all of the deadbeat buyers and what not, why chance it? If it were the real deal, I see no problem with the whip bringing more than the asking price here...Legit auctions starting off at this price are usually only open to pre-approved bidders anyway...

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:48 am**

Sort of off topic, but sort of not.

Last year the very helmet that was worn by both actors playing Darth Vader for the lightsaber duel in Empire Strikes Back and also the scene where Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father, sold on Ebay for a mere $25,000.

The helmet was 100% verified as being the helmet worn in those scenes by Gary Kurtz, the producer and if I'm not mistaken, other ILM prop builders as well. All of this was documented so there was no second guessing it.

Now that price sounds outrageuos to most of us, but there are plenty of people out there who have that kind of money to throw around, including $40,000 for a whip. Some people might think that's an insane price for a prop or for anything, but that's what it's worth to the seller in order for him to be able to let it go. It's like a personal opinion. That's all.
He could put it up for a million because it's not worth $40,000 to let it go and who are we to say that's too much because there are those who have the $$$ and just might pay it.
If you think about it from a different perspective, $40,000 may be a fair price of even a price you're used to paying for something you want on a regular basis. That is, if you were rich.

I can understand why the majority thinks the price is high, but there is a world out there of high society people (Steven Spielberg, George Lucas) who could spend that much daily for the rest of their lives and not even worry about going broke.

'Oh, look. A Raiders whip for $40,000. SOLD!'

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:49 am**

Bufflehead Jones wrote:I think that the people that are complaining about the price are just mad that it is out of their price range.

Well, not really. Look at me. I own my own house. I own both my cars. I have no debt. I have a well-paid job.

Now, I don't have 40K lying idle in the bank, no, but if I wanted to, I could certainly borrow $40,000 for something I really wanted and pay it off reasonably quickly.

So that's my reality, but I still think this thing is priced too high and, again, I compare it to other hero props from other movies. This is a disproportionate price and, while a free market allows it to happen, that doesn't make it "right" nor does it mean that people who say it's too high only do so because they can't afford it. I'm proof that this assumption is incorrect, for starters.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:57 am**

agent5 wrote:Last year the very helmet that was worn by both actors playing Darth Vader for the lightsaber duel in Empire Strikes Back and also the scene where Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father, sold on Ebay for a mere $25,000.

The helmet was 100% verified as being the helmet worn in those scenes by Gary Kurtz, the producer and if I'm not mistaken, other ILM prop builders as well. All of this was documented so there was no second guessing it.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou for reinforcing my point re: hero props.

As someone who buys props, I like to think I'm giving people wise counsel in my posts, and a comment like this reinforces that.

Put bluntly, the Star Wars movies are bigger than Indy. Period. And for the most hero of hero props with full authentication (c'mon, Darth vader's helmet anyone?!?) to be $15K less than an unauthenticated whip from IJ surely, surely, surely puts the prop market, and this auction, into some perspective for people?

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:05 am**

Bottom line is it is priced high for the current market, but he can do whatever he wants and we can just shrug our shoulders, or buy it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:13 am**

Riverwind wrote:I'm wondering why Lucasfilm has not attached a COA to this whip??

Sergei's word is good as far as I am concerned, but what about someone outside of the COW domain that has no idea who he is?

Not to pick on Riverwind, but I am hearing a consistent theme. Why would LucasFilms authenticate this whip? There have been THREE previous auctions on Raiders Whips:
- Speilberg
This whip was stated to be a 16 plait whip. It was officially on the note card in the Christie's auction. The trouble with that was, David Morgan didn't make a 16 plait whip for Glenn Randall Jr. or for any of the trilogies.
- Ford
- Vic Armstrong
None of the above provided a COA from LucasFilms. Why? Why should they? They, LucasFilms didn't maintain such deligent accounting. This first film in the trilogy was made in the spirit of a Saturday serial "B" movie. It came in under budget - 20 some years later the movie is a phenom. It would have been impossible for them to issue such a statement. Do you think that there is someone left at LucasFilms that would know the difference between Alden Boots and Red Wings and for god sakes a Mexican Latigo, Swivel Handle Whip and a Raiders Whip. No!

And BTW, adjusting for the current 2005 dollars, all those three whips were far north of $40K.

IndyBlues wrote:BTW, Why the H.E. Double hocky sticks are you bringing Fedoras name into this, Edge???

IndBlues, with all due respect the context was being an expert. Read the whole paragraph from The_Edge. The basis was that I was attacked from the "other forum" on the thesis that I can not possibly be an expert because I was just a "Fan". The point was Fedora made an excellent Fedora based on the same principle. He was just a fan. Or was he an expert? Could you reread the whole paragraph and then read what was said in the "other forum" where you are a moderator - with all due respect??? Those statements were more than provocative - FRIEND!

Peace!

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:47 am**

There is no doubt Fedora and you Sergei are expert !

the difference for some fans or collectors and the man who bid on the whip then cancel is are you an " official " expert. i explain:

I discuss with the man who was interested to buy the whip. he canceled his bid because for that price ( and he has a lot of money ) there is no proof the whip was used for the raiders production. he wants letter from glen Randall or other person involved in the movie who says " YES it is a whip used for the production of raiders etc..etc..." he's ok for the Sergei word but it is not enough.

Sure DM made a lot of whips at this period !

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:58 am**

Well then Doc, where was your COA from LF for you LC whip? Where was the COA from the other previous Raiders Whip auctions? Quoting somone from the previous auction was extremely priviledged information. He left me a message too, that stated that there was no bad reflection on the seller or the whip. You are being selective on what you disclosed and poor form to do it in the manner you did it.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:18 am**

Riverwind wrote:
Bufflehead Jones wrote:I think that the people that are complaining about the price are just mad that it is out of their price range.
That's totally irrelevant to this topic...Just because someone mentions the price of something does not mean they can't afford it...

The point I was trying to make is that when people say the price is rediculous, it may be rediculous for them, but if you have a seller that wants to sell at that price and a buyer that wants to buy at that price, it is not a rdiculous price.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:35 am**

Rob wrote:
Bufflehead Jones wrote:I think that the people that are complaining about the price are just mad that it is out of their price range.
Well, not really. Look at me. I own my own house. I own both my cars. I have no debt. I have a well-paid job.

Now, I don't have 40K lying idle in the bank, no, but if I wanted to, I could certainly borrow $40,000 for something I really wanted and pay it off reasonably quickly.

Well Rob,

I own my own home. I own all three of my cars. I have more than 40K lying idle in the bank (actually in mutual funds), but I am not going to spend it on this whip. I don't want it bad enough to do that.

I can understand someone wanting more documentation that this whip was used in the movie before buying it. There is plenty of documentation here that the whip was made by David Morgan during that time period, but not as solid that it was actually used in the film.

The deal about Indygear being a movie company was very misleading writing by the person that put the ad together.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:46 am**

the other site - who choses to hide behind their alias at IndyGear because they are not man enough wrote:According to "one site,"[IndyGear] an Indiana Jones movie whip was auctioned at Christies International on 12/9/99. This whip was "donated to UNICEF by Steven Spielberg."

That was a 16 plait whip. Did you not read the statement that followed from the site you quoted? Maybe you have poor english comprehension reading skills or - you suffer from selective disclosure to prove your misquided point. David Morgan never made a 16 plait whip for Glenn Randall Jr. or for any of the trilogies. I asked him!!! Before you start quoting sites, maybe you should get your facts straight - sonny. Now that could have been a typo on the note card for that auction in 1999. However, if it was a 16 plait, well the winner has problems! That can be easily verifed by even you. I am assuming that even the "international man of mystery" can count to 16.

the other site - who choses to hide behind their alias at IndyGear because they are not man enough wrote:As a side note, those with keen eyes will find that calling IndyGear an "Indiana Jones Movie company" was not the only "mistake" that the description author made which "accidentally" helped to pad the whip's validity.

Beating a dead horse. It's a mistake. I didn't write it. Everyone here knows that this is a fan site and not a movie site. The seller should correct that statement. Though I must say that that was quite an impressive response from the "international man of mystery".

I will contact your agent to proof read the next CSI script.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:21 am**

agent5 wrote:Bottom line is it is priced high for the current market, but he can do whatever he wants and we can just shrug our shoulders, or buy it.

Well, actually there's actually a third thing anyone with half an ounce of knowledge about buying hero props can do - and that's to simply laugh at the price

Bufflehead Jones wrote:Well Rob,

I own my own home. I own all three of my cars. I have more than 40K lying idle in the bank (actually in mutual funds), but I am not going to spend it on this whip. I don't want it bad enough to do that.

I'm not reading you. You said that people, such as myself, say the whip is too expensive simply because we can't afford it. Yet, when I suggest that I can afford it if I want to, but think it's overpriced, you basically regurgitate the same words back at me (as if this is a competition to say how much money we have) and, in doing so, totally sidestep the point I'm making that what you said, in a nutshell, is not always correct. Weird.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:48 am**

Sergei wrote:
the other site - who choses to hide behind their alias at IndyGear because they are not man enough wrote:According to "one site,"[IndyGear] an Indiana Jones movie whip was auctioned at Christies International on 12/9/99. This whip was "donated to UNICEF by Steven Spielberg."

That can be easily verifed by even you. I am assuming that even the "international man of mystery" can count to 16.

Sergei wrote:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's the point of those comments and why are you calling out another person from a different board who can not reply to your comments here?

This topic could go on and on forever, but until there is some concrete evidence that the whip is the real deal, with all due respect, I simply think it's going to be a case of "your word against their's" type thing...

This is totally out of curiosity, but if Lucasfilm did not keep records of what was used in ROLA and also can not provide a COA for the whip because they are not 100% sure of its authenticity, then how can anyone be sure of its orgin and place of use for that matter?

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:01 am**

[quote="Sergei"]
Not to pick on Riverwind, but I am hearing a consistent theme. Why would LucasFilms authenticate this whip? There have been THREE previous auctions on Raiders Whips:
- Speilberg
This whip was stated to be a 16 plait whip. It was officially on the note card in the Christie's auction. The trouble with that was, David Morgan didn't make a 16 plait whip for Glenn Randall Jr. or for any of the trilogies.
- Ford
- Vic Armstrong
None of the above provided a COA from LucasFilms. Why? Why should they? They, LucasFilms didn't maintain such deligent accounting. This first film in the trilogy was made in the spirit of a Saturday serial "B" movie. It came in under budget - 20 some years later the movie is a phenom. It would have been impossible for them to issue such a statement. Do you think that there is someone left at LucasFilms that would know the difference between Alden Boots and Red Wings and for god sakes a Mexican Latigo, Swivel Handle Whip and a Raiders Whip. No!
quote]

You are correct by saying that LucasFilms did not provide a COA with these whips, but lets look at who these whips are coming from:

Steven Speilberg: I would be willing to bet 90% of the world's population knows who this guy is or has heard his name before...If he were selling a whip or any movie used prop for that matter, signed his name to it saying its the real deal, then no questions needed about its authenticity...

Harrison Ford: Same thing as Speilberg on this one...Ford was the main actor, heck he WAS the movie...So, if says it was screen used, then who would be more of the expert then he?

Vic Armstrong: He was heavily involved with the movies as well...I would assume most people would take his word on a prop with no question...

The common thing we have with these 3 people and what they auctioned off in the past is that they were all involved with the movies in one form or another...

Now the whip in question does not have this sort of personal backup, thus the reason for all of the questioning concerning it authenticity...

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:45 am**

Riverwind wrote:
What's the point of those comments and why are you calling out another person from a different board who can not reply to your comments here?

The person from the other board is not allowing me to post there because he made a recent rule change - as evidenced by a few members there that they do not abide by that rule change. So that person is reading this thread from Indygear, cross posting at his site, knowing full well I can NOT respond there. So this is my only resort. I find it quite childish. Don't you think?

Riverwind wrote: This topic could go on and on forever, but until there is some concrete evidence that the whip is the real deal, with all due respect, I simply think it's going to be a case of "your word against their's" type thing...

Well all I can say, was Glenn Randall Jr. did state that Faye was a neighbour and he gifted her the whip right after the shooting of Raiders.

Riverwind wrote: Steven Speilberg: I would be willing to bet 90% of the world's population knows who this guy is or has heard his name before...If he were selling a whip or any movie used prop for that matter, signed his name to it saying its the real deal, then no questions needed about its authenticity...

Well, you missed the point on the 16 plait whip. Either the note card in the 1999 auction was wrong or - if it is a 16 plait whip (which can be easily verified) , there is a massive issue. Morgan never delivered a 16 plait bullwhip to either Glenn or to the Raiders prop department .

Riverwind wrote: This is totally out of curiosity, but if Lucasfilm did not keep records of what was used in ROLA and also can not provide a COA for the whip because they are not 100% sure of its authenticity, then how can anyone be sure of its orgin and place of use for that matter?

That's my point. No such tracking occured for Raiders. Therefore a COA from LF is moot. The whips were laying in box, to be used for whipcracking practice, practicing stunt moves for a shoot, and then the actual shoot themselves. We have 2 people, Faye & Glenn, that were neighbors and both verified what was disclosed in the auction.

Below is a picture from Art Fawcett. That fedora he is holding was used in Seabiscuit - he supplied the loaner fedora worn by Bridges. Note the tag. The tag shows who was wearing it, and what scene #. This method is commonly used for continuity.

I can assure you, that method was not used in Raiders for tracking the bullwhips. Didn't happen.

-Sergei

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:50 pm**

What happened to "Don't kill the messenger?"

I'd just like to point out that it's SERGEI, not SERGIE. I'm not the greatest speller, but c'mon and give him the courtesy of spelling it correctly.

Sergei, you've done nothing wrong, and so to the people that are accusing you of such, just knock it off, whether on this board or others.

If you got a complaint, then go to the person who auctioned the whip off, not SergEI. He's provided information regarding the whip measurements, and some of its history, and the distinct possibility of it being used in Raiders, based upon the previous owners. The seller took that information and ran with it, not SergEI.

Now let's all put a smile on our face.

Best Regards and Happy New Year,

Paul Stenhouse

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:16 pm**

Move along...

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

...move along

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:20 pm**

IndyBlues wrote:BTW, Why the H.E. Double hocky sticks are you bringing Fedoras name into this, Edge???

IndBlues, with all due respect the context was being an expert. Read the whole paragraph from The_Edge. The basis was that I was attacked from the "other forum" on the thesis that I can not possibly be an expert because I was just a "Fan". The point was Fedora made an excellent Fedora based on the same principle. He was just a fan. Or was he an expert? Could you reread the whole paragraph and then read what was said in the "other forum" where you are a moderator - with all due respect??? Those statements were more than provocative - FRIEND!

Peace!

Well, thanks for pointing that out to me, Sergei. BTW I had no idea I was mispelling your name. I was going with the whole "I" before "E", accept after "C" rule. My mistake. Truthfully.

Now, I don't know why you are being hostile towards me, because as you so eloquently put it, "with all due respect", I was sticking up for you.
Sorry if you think my affiliation with that "other" site has anything to do with how I treat anyone here at COW. I was trying to seperate you from the situation, because I truly believe you are being singled out as the "bad guy" in all of this. I even testified to your knowledge on whips in my last post.
What's up with the "alias" comment above?? Are you insinuating that I am Austin Powers using an alias on COW? Maybe you think I'm a puppet just posting for A.P., because he can't. Whatever you want to think is fine, but I can assure you I am not he, and I've met several gearheads in person, so THEY at least know who I am, and what I am about. I've had numerous transactions with several gearheads, and never have I been anything less that gracious in all dealings with my fellow COW buddies.
So, you can believe what you want. I'm not the bad guy here.
Never anything BUT, everyones FRIEND,
'Blues[/quote]

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:23 pm**

I'll vouch for this bloke.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:27 pm**

No, IndyBlues I did not imply you were AP. However, I saw you were a moderator there. You asked the question on why The_Edge brought up Fedora. And the context was the thread in the forum you moderated. I was being accused of not being an expert. To wit, The_Edge brought an interesting parallel to think about.

Please no anomosity. None intended your way. I saw your pictures at the UK Summit. That's a good crew. Also I enjoyed the picture of your son.

-Sergei

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:35 pm**

Not a beat a dead horse (or thread) but here's my 2 cents in the matter.

You will never find a more friendly, knowledgeable person in Sergei when it comes to whips... period. I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person as well. His knowledge of whips is remarkable, Indy Whips and regular whips both. I won't list out his credentials because I don't have them all at the moment in front of me but trust me, it's a LONG list. If there is anyone on the planet that could "identify that the whip in question was a David Morgan ROTLA era whip," Sergei's one of the few that can. And the whips trail (story) should be more than enought for most people. Otherwise, I'm sure the current owner wouldn't mind helping to track down the past owners to prove it's validity.

If people think the price is outrageous, that's fine. If people think the price is just, that's fine too. Did the seller get some typos and misleading info in their listing? Yes. That's obvious to everyone here. But don't take that out on Sergei.

Again, this forum is here to help people in this hobby and just have fun. I'm sure if the seller didn't get a sale, they'd be more than willing to listen to this group for help in re-wording their sale as to have more validity. And just to play devil's advocate for the seller, their mistakes in the wording in the auction may just be that, mistakes and not an attempt to mislead any potential buyer.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:40 pm**

Minnesota Jones wrote:If people think the price is outrageous, that's fine. If people think the price is just, that's fine too. Did the seller get some typos and misleading info in their listing? Yes. That's obvious to everyone here. But don't take that out on Sergei.

Just for the record, my comments on price never referenced or, I believe, have anything to do with Sergei. Maybe that's not what you meant by your comment, anyway, but just to be clear on this, I am not equating the overblown price (overblown, again, in comparison to other hero props on the market), with anything that Sergei has done or said. I feel that my line of thought on prop pricing is far removed from other comments on Sergei in this thread as you can get.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:47 pm**

Could we just have a group hug here and put this all behind us?

Jim

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:59 pm**

ecwhips wrote:Could we just have a group hug here and put this all behind us?

Jim

Jim,
Could you explain what your comment means?

Just kidding. Too many shorts got twisted in a knot these past 10 days....including mine.

"Kumbaya". I need to go to one of those Indian "Sweat Lodges" for awhile.

Posted: **Tue Jan 04, 2005 7:09 pm**

Rob wrote:
Minnesota Jones wrote:If people think the price is outrageous, that's fine. If people think the price is just, that's fine too. Did the seller get some typos and misleading info in their listing? Yes. That's obvious to everyone here. But don't take that out on Sergei.
Just for the record, my comments on price never referenced or, I believe, have anything to do with Sergei. Maybe that's not what you meant by your comment, anyway, but just to be clear on this, I am not equating the overblown price (overblown, again, in comparison to other hero props on the market), with anything that Sergei has done or said. I feel that my line of thought on prop pricing is far removed from other comments on Sergei in this thread as you can get.

My comment was just that. It doesn't reference any specific comments made by anyone. It's meant as straight forward as I said it. If people think the price is good or not, that fine. That's their opinion. One person may think that's an outrageous price and others may think it's a fair price. Supply and demand. I recently purchased a screen used ToD/LC holster on eBay. Am I happy? Yes. Did I think I paid a fair price for it? Yes, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. And that's all that matters. And my other comment is just that too. Don't blame someone (in this case Sergei) for someone else's typos or mistakes. That's all I mean in that. Those comments are not directed to any one specific, but in general.

As Forrest Gump said, "...That's all I have to say on that..."

As to that Sweat Lodge... that sounds great! I love a good sauna!

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:28 pm**

Just another update to this saga. As you may or may not now, the Raiders Whip did sell on ebay for $40,000. Due to several requests about the winner, I am able to say that the winner is definitely a "fan". He lives in a large city in the Mid-West. With this acquisition he has completed the "trifecta". The whip adds to his collection of a Fedora and Jacket that came from the trilogy. Not sure if the fedora or jacket was in Raiders, but they did appear in one of the three movies. The fedora came from HF directly.

-Sergei

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:30 pm**

So, agent5, when are you going to share photos of these items.

Oh, it wasn't YOU? My bad....

High regards. Michaelson

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:38 pm**

Glad to hear something like this went to a fan.

Posted: **Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:46 pm**

Joe Strain maybe? I too am glad it went to a fan.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:10 am**

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Joe Strain maybe? I too am glad it went to a fan.

Idaho, in the mid-west? Hint: Frankie sang about the city.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:02 pm**

Oh, BTW.....

Mark did tell me more about Glenn Randall Jr. He talked to him the week the auction ended. Glenn is an EXTREMELY private guy - almost to the level of a Howard Huges. He doesn't like talking to anybody anymore. But the real reason for Glenn not signing anything with this auction had to do with a 15 page "confidentiality" agreement with the studio. He breaches that, and the lawyers would come down hard as well as no more gigs for him within the film community.

That's all I know for now.

The legend and saga continue....

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:32 pm**

I've stayed out of this one because of my total lack of knowledge on the subject, but I will comment on Riverwind's post. Not to single him out, but to make a point.

The previous auctions are whips from Spielberg, HF and Vic Armstrong.

Now then, these whips weren't brought to the auction by these people themselves, they were donated to people who presented them to auction.

If HF himself gave me a Herbie J, and 2 years later, I auction an HJ and claim it was from HF, and I have proof that he gave me A fedora, who is to say it was the one he gave me, and not a Todd's costume fedora?

Well, we rely on experts in the field to authenticate the felt, colour and the differences between a 2005 HJ, and an '81 HJ, as well as other facts.

All the auction site said was that Spielberg offered the whip to Unicef. After that, we have no trail.

I'd have to say that Sergei's contribution to the whip's authenticity, as well as collaborating stories from Randall and Faye are about as much evidence as any of the other auctions had.

Posted: **Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:33 pm**

When the Indy stunt show closed for remodeling in 2000, it reopened with Glen Randall hosting the show. We were on a very tight schedule (pretty much on the way to the airport) and I couldn't go down to see him after the show. Anyways, he was therte for a while before someone else took over for him. There were also 2 stuntmen/women from Raiders as well. Looks like if he's such a recluse I missed a golden opportunity there. Although hosting a Disney show doesn't sound like he couyld be THAT private of a guy.

Posted: **Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:58 pm**

Sergei wrote:
Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Joe Strain maybe? I too am glad it went to a fan.
Idaho, in the mid-west? Hint: Frankie sang about the city.

New York is in the midwest?

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:37 am**

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:
Sergei wrote:
Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Joe Strain maybe? I too am glad it went to a fan.
Idaho, in the mid-west? Hint: Frankie sang about the city.
New York is in the midwest?

You're killing me! (Didn't he also sing about a 'toddling' town? Hint.)

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:00 am**

Indiana Texas-girl wrote:
Sergei wrote:
Indiana Texas-girl wrote:Joe Strain maybe? I too am glad it went to a fan.
Idaho, in the mid-west? Hint: Frankie sang about the city.
New York is in the midwest?

Hint: The city is on a "Great Lake". Yes, Frank sang a song about NY, but there is another great city that he sung about which is also one of his signature songs. One COW member is an "Agent" there. And Henry Jones Jr. studied archeology there from Professor Abner Ravenwood.

Club Obi Wan

Raiders whip used in the movie!!!

My measurements...