Club Obi Wan

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:45 am**

I'm going to start a new thread with a list where we can all sound off. I'll update the list as more people place orders or come forward. Hope you don't mind me stealing your idea, Raider S...

Dave

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:14 am**

DR Ulloa wrote:Hope you don't mind me stealing your idea, Raider S...

Tragedy! Tragedy! Usurper!

Good idea - although I don't think the sizes matter as they just need to get a certain number of orders and not a certain number of sizes.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:27 am**

Raider S wrote: Good idea - although I don't think the sizes matter as they just need to get a certain number of orders and not a certain number of sizes.

Correct.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:36 am**

I'll go in there and delete the sizes.

Can I go ahead and add Crismans and Holt? They both said they had orders.

Dave

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:42 pm**

I'd say 'yes'. If they haven't, they'll chime in with a correction.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:47 pm**

I am in as well... Email sent... a while back?!

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:17 pm**

I have a few questions.

Just how many pre-orders does Wings need to start making these 100 jackets? Do
they need a certain number, and if so, what is that number to get them started
making these jackets?

It would be nice to know so people can see how close they are to actually getting
this jacket made for them. Instead, it seams that Wings can just tell people, "Sorry, we didn't
get enough orders, so tough luck, we're not making it for you". We will never know
if this was the truth without knowing what actual number of pre-orders is. It can
just come down to Wings just desiding not to make this jacket because it was
not cost effective for them.

Also, if as Michaelson has relaid to us that this jacket is "only" available to the people
here on COW, how can Wings say that they will be making a certain number of jackets
in each size, if they don't know what size everyone needs prior to making them?

For example, if 100 people placed a pre-order for the jacket, and all 100 of those
people ordered a size Large, then why did Wings say they will be making a certain number
of jackets in each size, as in S, M, L, XL?

If the above case were to be true, then only about 25 percent of the people who ordered
a jacket would get one in the size they wanted, and the other 75 percent of the jackets
are not going to get sold to anyone here, and either be put into their regular sales area,
or shelved. So what did a pre-order really do for them? Nothing.

It would make sense to me that if there were only going to be 100 of these jackets, then
Wings should make them the sizes required by all 100 orders, and not just say 25 of each
size like S, M, L, XL.

Its like the 777 Nowak jackets. Tony is making 777 jackets, but he is only making them as
each order comes in, and only in the sizes that he gets orders for. If no one ever orders a size
small or a size XL, then he will not make any in those sizes.

Isn't the Wings TOD jacket the same thing? 100 special order jackets? How can it be
special order if they are making them to whatever sizes they want to, and not to the
sizes they have orders for?

Flathead

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:19 pm**

Good point. The magic number is now 40. It's the order count that's the deal breaker, not how it divies up in sizes.

As an example, if they have, let's say, 5 orders, they look at the sizes requested and make those, rather than break it up into sizing blocks before receiving the orders, then hope that sizing break down 'guesstimate' sells. They've been stuck with unsold jackets in the past of sizes that no one wanted. It's even more crucial in this type special one time run.

Right now, they only have 12 orders in hand, not even half of the lowest production order point.

Like I said, they REALLY cut back on their original number based on what has occurred...or not, as it were...

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:49 pm**

I have an XL and L reserved .... going to return whichever one doesn't fit. Order placed in late March .... though they decided not to take payment information until it's ready to ship.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:16 pm**

Count me in for a Medium. I ordered back in early March. I'm completely surprised there are so few orders.

I thought I had to rush just to get one of the 100 that would be made.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:13 pm**

Michaelson wrote:Good point. The magic number is now 40. It's the order count that's the deal breaker, not how it divies up in sizes.

As an example, if they have, let's say, 5 orders, they look at the sizes requested and make those, rather than break it up into sizing blocks before receiving the orders, then hope that sizing break down 'guesstimate' sells. They've been stuck with unsold jackets in the past of sizes that no one wanted. It's even more crucial in this type special one time run.

Right now, they only have 12 orders in hand, not even half of the lowest production order point.

Like I said, they REALLY cut back on their original number based on what has occurred...or not, as it were...

Regards! Michaelson

This sounds like the logical way to do it, but its the exact opposite of what was told to our COW memebers just a few weeks ago.

Here is a quote from the early part of April:

Hey all,

For what it's worth, I called today to place an order for this jacket and was told the smaller sizes are in production now. Apparently, they start with the smaller ones and work their way up. I was told for L or XL, it should be no more than a month...

Wings told this memeber that they will start with the smaller sizes first and work their way up.

How is that possible if Wings has no idea how many of the 100 jackets need to be small sizes
if they don't have enough pre-orders yet?

They could make 50 size smalls for all we know, because you can make more smaller jackets from
each run of leather than you can make the larger sizes. And that immediately cuts the number of
larger sizes that people actually want way down.

I think Wings is really starting to look at the cost of making just 100 "special" jackets, and
just exactly what they can expect to possibly make on it, and they will either keep pushing
the date back, as they are doing now, so that we loose interest in it, or they will just abandon
it altogether, as they will loose money on it.

For them to take their people off of any current projects, and put them on this one, for just
100 jackets, will not only cost Wings time, but all their other projects that are their bread and
butter will suffer. And there is no way they will do that for just the small profit they might
possibly make on 100 jackets.

And to try to hire some new people, and train them, and pay them to make only 100 of
these jackets is also not cost effective.

Are there really 100 people here who want this that bad? I hope so. But it doesn't look
that way currently.

People have had since December of 2008 to deside to place a pre-order. And to date, there
are only 12 pre-orders.

At this rate, and the fact that summer is coming, its going to put a huge dent into the amount
of people wanting to buy a new jacket, no matter how nice it may be.

But for everyone who is waiting for this, I hope I am totally and utterly wrong.

Flathead

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:39 pm**

No, I believe you pretty well have it on target, FLATHEAD. The current 40 is the absolute 'break even' that the factory is willing to go, but no lower. You're only talking 2 weeks ago that this transition was starting to take place. Like I said, there were a couple false starts as they were trying to sort out if it was even a viable project to continue moving forward with.

If you'll recall, when the SE version was produced last year, they UNDER figured the number for production, and actually ran out of jackets before orders! That was a 300 jacket run! We made up the majority of those orders too, as we got first shot at the inventory before it was posted on their website! That also happened last summer, so warm weather didn't figure into the ordering process. That was a special jacket, as is this.

This time they proposed a limited 100 run, and only got 12 orders?! How WOULD you figure out needed sizes when orders suddenly dry up?

It's definitely the current cost of doing business, as with all things today. If you'll track the start of this project, it all started before everything really hit the proverbial fan in the financial world, so belt tightening is ongoing in every industry we deal with outside our single craftsmen.

What I'm impressed with is they're still willing to stand by their word to produce this single run, even at the lower number. It would have been much easier to just say exactly what you state above....to paraphrase...'sorry, we changed our minds. It's too big a business loss'. Their bread and butter is still military jackets, so this single run is only because of our standing with David Hack.

Are there really 100 people here who want this that bad? I hope so. But it doesn't look
that way currently.

Once again, totally agree. Heck, they're just trying to see if 40 are interested in this COW exclusive. The original '100 jackets' count is no longer on the table.

That said, the clock is ticking, so if you're on the fence, now is the time to order, or pass. The next couple of days activity will decide.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:09 pm**

I was informed of this Friday but was holding off posting it until I could talk with Sgt. Hack on options. I've been missing him with my phone calls so I'm glad that Michaelson posted this so people know where we stand.

I'm not sure what to say at this point other than I'm very surprised at the lack of response (I chalk it up to the poor economy as this jacket would be, in terms of rarity, as special as the Blue Label). I'm the only one that's held one I realize but if you've held a Wings before, this jacket is made to that quality with more SA specs (which Holt really put effort into). It's a great jacket and, as a COW exclusive, it would be a very special one as well.

As I understand it, the production department (which is union) has to have a required number of jackets ordered. This number is usually 100. To their credit, to uphold their commitment to making this jacket, Sgt. Hack and Myke Redpath, the production manager, have managed to get this number down to 40 for this jacket. 40 orders come in and it's produced. I feel that their original plan was to divide up the 100 jackets into different sizes, again, as they did with the Blue Label. The lack of response has led them to go by sizes ordered (again, this is just my inference).

When I talk to Sgt. Hack tomorrow (I was given a time that he would definitely be in) one of my suggestions is that he do away with this jacket as a COW exclusive and post it on the website as a special offer as he did the Blue Label jacket. If he agrees, I think that the order numbers would easily meet the requirements. I don't know this for sure, of course, but I believe this to be the case as I truly believe, once people see this in the lamb and reviews are had, more people would be interested in one. Of course, it would make the jacket more special to be a COW exclusive (and my personal preference) but if it means getting the jacket made then I'm all for getting rid of the exclusive status.

Of course, if 40 orders roll in, all this is a moot point!

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:31 pm**

Not only the downturn in the economy, but also the downturn in Indy. Last year was a big year with the first new movie in nearly two decades. A lot of people who'd "forgotten" about Indy or didn't even realize there was so much Indy gear for sale (just look at all the new members here, like myself) were suddenly in the market and buying jackets.

Now we're into the warm months (in this hemisphere, anyway) and people really into Indy last year have probably gotten what they wanted (all those Blue Label jackets didn't go to COW members) and moved on. Sad but true.

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:45 pm**

Crismans, if you have a chance, ask the sarge about sizing. At this point it looks like onl the ordered sizes will get made if that happens at all. Some of us have been told, "I think you should go with size x" but the rep was unsure about the sizing. I think the sizing issue might be one reason why more orders for this aren't coming in. So if Wings makes only enough to cover 40 orders and ten of those need to be exchanged for sizing issues, they are stuch with their sizes. I just think we should cover all bases and bring the only grey area of this jacket into enlightenment.

Dave

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:07 pm**

Good point. Better clarification on sizing would make it so I don't have to order two and return one. I guess the downside to that is that's one less jacket ordered (but, it would ultimately be that way once I returned one of them).

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:53 pm**

RECAP: the photos and specs along with Crismans introduction:

crismans wrote:The prototype has arrived at my door from Wings. First, let me say that this jacket is an interesting hybrid. As most of us know, Wings makes an excellent product when it comes to quality of materials and craftsmanship. The knock has been voiced the most here is that they miss out on some SA details. This jacket corrects many of those details and really has an SA vibe to it. But the jacket didn't hit all the details on our spec sheet. Holt is known around here (and deservedly so) for his attention to detail on these jackets. And the work he did for this jacket is no exception as our 25 page spec sheet can attest. And as more pictures come to light, the more I can see that he nailed the specs.

All of this isn't to throw off on Wings by any means. They are not a custom jacket maker. I would venture an educated guess and say that their Indy jackets make up a small percentage of their sales. This isn't said to make excuses but to put things in context and show that Hack and his production department really did go overboard to try to make the prototype the best they could within reason for us here.

I'm going to send the jacket back soon and production will then start. I believe production will be limited to 100 jackets with each jacket numbered. There will also probably be a tag on the label indicating that this jacket is a special edition. I should also note that this jacket was made in their vintage cowhide. As per our poll we conducted earlier, most of you wanted to go with their antique lamb and there's a picture of a swatch of it at the end.

Okay, onto the jacket description and the pics:

First, the good. They got very close on the collar stand and pockets, nailed the collar, nailed the yoke to sleeve seam placement, tapered the sleeves, tapered the back panel, and got the good, silver chunky zipper.

Bad news:

D-rings (pretty easy to switch out but there you go), American zipper placement (I'm going to discuss this with them as I would think this would be an easy remedy), and they missed the action pleat construction. I spoke with Wings and they said that this was as close as they could come to the action pleats without a major pattern change.

Zipper detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150078.jpg

Pocket Height: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150080.jpg

Pocket Width: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150079.jpg

Shoulder Seam Detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150081.jpg

Bicep detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150082.jpg

Cuff detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150083.jpg

Yoke-sleeve seam detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150085.jpg

Collar detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150086.jpg

Collar stand detail: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150088.jpg

Side vent detail-closed: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150089.jpg

Side vent detail-open: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150090.jpg

Yoke-top: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150091.jpg

Yoke-bottom: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150092.jpg

Antique lamb sample: http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421 ... 150094.jpg

The price and size info on the prototype as well as an explanation as to how lamb was chosen:

crismans wrote:From the sample they sent, it seems to be a resilient lamb and made to break in easy. For the low numbers they're planning, they want to work in one hide. Lamb won out on our poll. Wings could do the jacket in goat (my personal choice) but we tried to be democratic.

The tag on the jacket reads large (42-44 on the Wings chart) so I'm thinking they'll do their sizing like the Blue Label. The price I was told early on was $300.

Here is what Holt had to say about the specs and features of the jacket:

Indiana Holt wrote:the jacket is constructed in a really tough way.us wing standard way,which means quality.

pluss the jacket has a way better TofD look then what their standard jackets has...

the details that are missing is the vents, american zipper pull placement and the buckles.

the details that are in place is:

slimmer fit.

collar stand

untapered collar.

pockets and placement.

lower yolk.

the backpanel extends to the yolk seam.

more correct strap placement.

slimmer sleeves.

chunky zipper

the vent height.

front arm seam more in place

Lamb swatch and standard Wings offering in lamb for referrence:

crismans wrote:Yeah, the vintage cowhide really does carry a CS feel. I think the antique lamb will help the jacket to catch more of that ToD vibe.

Here's the swatch again:

and here's the standard jacket in the lamb from the Wings site:

I'm sure most of you have read this already but here's the description of the leather:

Note: our "antique" lambskin comes with a thin protective coating over the surface which may make the leather look new initially, but will "break-in" and age rapidly as you wear it, giving you that desirable 50 Mission look.

And here is the jacket tweaked in photoshop to be a truer representation of the final product:

Indiana Holt wrote:I darken the jacket abit.

see how it allready now gets a more TofD look.

now only fixing the collar and zipper.it is actually a pretty good SA jacket.

All of that was found on the first page.

Dave

Posted: **Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:44 pm**

Sorry- forgot to ask to be added to the list of those who have ordered one- I ordered mine like a month ago

Kyle

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:50 am**

Tried to add you, Kyle, but can't edit my post in the list thread since its been locked.

Dave

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:06 am**

I've unlocked the list thread and added Kyle's name for you, Dave.

It will be left open so you can update it as names are submitted, so the ball is back in your court.

As I said in that thread, please keep all discussion regarding the jacket in THIS thread.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 9:04 am**

You can add my name to the list. I sent in an order last month.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:40 pm**

Thanks Michaelson and Dave

Kyle

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:41 pm**

Dave

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:08 pm**

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:09 pm**

How many orders does Wings have on their list?

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:26 pm**

Last I heard, 12, but that was last Saturday.

Regards! Michaelson

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:55 pm**

I didn't want to read through all of the pages here but could someone tell me if the jacket posted above is the final pattern?

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:00 pm**

from what I believe there were a few small changes but thats rougly what the final product will look like.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:02 pm**

But in antique lambskin......you might want to pm Crisman if questions

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:11 pm**

Thanks, guys. Any clue if they corrected the top of the storm flap and the side vent? I'd love to someday get a TOD jacket and if I can order one here in the states I'd rather, but if they just do a "good enough" instead of a "done right" jacket then I'll have to stick with Wested and just say a prayer.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:16 pm**

Bad news all. I talked with Hack today. He said at this time, with the economy the way it is, it wasn't financially feasible to start a new line of Indy jackets which is what he would be essentially be doing if he listed it on the website. So, with only 12 orders in, they are going to have to put this on the backburner right now. He said not to consider this an all in out cancellation as they do have the prototype and can make the jacket. He suggested that we hold off until September and, hopefully, with winter coming on (more jackets are normally sold this time of year, of course) and (my addition of hoping) an improved economy, we can get the necessary orders to make this jacket a reality. I hope so as, even though I fully understand the economic concerns, I think we would be letting something really special get by us.

I'd also like to extend a big thanks to Sgt. Hack and Wings. I don't think that he would mind me telling that I was wrong about the 40 jackets. The minimum order from the factory (again, union rules) had to be 100 jackets. The Sgt. was going to go with 40 orders, inventorying 60 jackets. Short version, he was willing to possibly eat 60 of these jackets as long as he had 40 orders, which was the minimum he had to have and not lose his shirt on this project. Hopefully, this isn't the end but merely a postponement until the fall.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:18 pm**

Thanks for the post crismans. I'll be there ready and waiting in September!

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:19 pm**

Well, bad news but hopefully in six or seven months it will become a reality. As I mentioned a day or so ago, I really think the time of year was a big factor.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:20 pm**

Perhaps knowing that Wested ironed out all the kinks in their jacket has some members here holding off. Maybe this given time will allow USW to get all the kinks out of theirs? One can only hope cuz' I'd love one of these someday if they do it right.

Posted: **Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:25 pm**

With that, we may as well shut this thread now.

Regards!

Michaelson

Club Obi Wan

Wings Temple of Doom jacket--now in production

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