Club Obi Wan

DR Ulloa wrote:

backstagejack wrote:

DR Ulloa wrote:Oh well, back to rereading the Thrawn trilogy before the 17th.

Dave

Off topic - The Thrawn Trilogy (amazing as it is) isn't canon anymore I thought

Nope definitely not. But after reading Aftermath I got the feeling they might be drawing some inspiration from Zahn's novels and decided to reread them.

I had always hoped the Thrawn trilogy was going to be episodes 7,8 and 9. Hopefully some inspiration was taken.

DR Ulloa wrote:Jeff, they made you a moderator?! I have been gone for a long time! Dave

About two years now, it has been too long.

Looking forward to seeing you wandering the halls.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Back to the hat (or hats, in this case) for a moment. It occurs to me that in "ROTLA" that the hero hat was made to look the way it did, by the costume crews involved so that 'it' was a worn and battered as the rest of Indy's action costume* and Indy-himself. If you will note, the grey-travel hat is a beautiful, well-shaped fedora befitting of HJ's regular customers. It looks dressy in the plane shots and in Washington, at the end of the film. We need to remember that regardless of the condition a piece of costuming looks upon arrival to the film makes, they still have the last word (and bash, destruction, etc.) on the end results.

Just my two cents here. W>

*I recall a quote from DN stating she wanted 'Indy' to look as if he 'lived in his clothing.' Thus, the 'Hero Look', if you will....W>

That's an interesting factoid, W. Though I wasn't initially talking about distressing, I can't seem to remember if the "brown" travel hat ...had the shoddy ribbon work and quick dimensional cuts added to them. Anyone have some high tea screen grabs of the seaplane hat? Been a while since I've been on here...

Dave

DR Ulloa wrote:That's an interesting factoid, W. Though I wasn't initially talking about distressing, I can't seem to remember if the "brown" travel hat ...had the shoddy ribbon work and quick dimensional cuts added to them. Anyone have some high tea screen grabs of the seaplane hat? Been a while since I've been on here...

Dave

Re: The 'shoddy ribbon work', from what I recall, it was the set costumers who added the ribbon's to the hats. I could be well off base here, but I do recall this (from somewhere). The dimensional cuts, according (again, recall -- on both sides here) was done by Swales with DN and Ford present at the time in his shop in England.

Who knows? W>

The Raiders hat ribbon was cinched up, I believe, and I think this was done by the wardrobe department, so the hat looks "poorly made". I also believe there was no dimensional cut, but the ribbon tightening caused the brim width variance, except near the bow where it's still 2 1/2 inches. I imagine they cut the stitches at the front of the bow, (and elsewhere), pulled the ribbon tighter, then re-stitched the front of the bow in the original position, but the rest of the ribbon slid up onto the crown to some degree, with the brim getting wider where it slid up the most. The hat was an extremely tight fit for Ford, evidenced in the sunset scene and the "Making Of" Waco plane scene. ..Was probably an exceptionally comfortable fit before the ribbon tightening

Apologies for resuscitating an old threat, but this seemed like the best place to post a few thoughts. Based on some new information and a bit of conjecture, this is what I would guess is possibility.

I think the Raiders hat was possibly an amalgamation of a factory and a bespoke hat. From what I’ve heard from Herbert Johnson, the original hat was a stock Poet of that time that was modified. That fits in with what Deborah Nadoolman recalled about creating the look. The hat had the crown shortened, which makes me think it was quite possibly reblocked there in the shop, dimensionally cut, and had the ribbon replaced from a wider ribbon to a 1.5 inch ribbon. That finished hat would have had a remarkably different look than the stock Poet and was rightly a new look created by Nadoolman, but still modified from a factory made hat rather than a completely bespoke hat. Herbert Johnson has stated that the order cleaned out their stock of sable colored Poets, meaning a bunch of modified stock hats rather than a bunch of sable fur bodies completely handmade in the shop. That hat was likely felt sourced from Cury and made in a factory that has yet to be discovered.

Also, the hat was ordered as a movie prop, and I read somewhere that the bulk order of Raiders hats cost somewhere around the neighborhood of £50 per hat. I am unsure of the validity of that, but it would be consistent with a hat that wasn’t top shelf. Also, the Rabbit felt, while superior to most modern Rabbit, was not of top vintage quality or it would never have become as warped and droopy as it did in Tunisia. But the hat wasn’t junk. The screen used hat that was sold recently shows decent workmanship for what was required and it hasn’t disintegrated into nothing after 30 plus years. But, it wasn’t the quality of the AdventureBilt hats used in the 4th movie.

For the sequels to Raiders, Herbert Johnson has confirmed they sourced their hats from Borsalino. Also, I would guess that since the look had already been created, the hats in the sequels could have been ordered from Borsalino with ribbon and crown specs from the earlier hats. That’s why the blocking and ribbon work was inferior, because it was factory done instead of being hand modified by Swales. And the ribbon stock and block shapes wouldn’t have been identical, in addition to different felt.

This would be consistent with the decline in general quality of hatmaking and decline in popularity of hats during the time that the trilogy was made. The popularity of Indiana Jones led to a resurgence of craftsmanship in hats among the fans here, and that’s why, such a well made truly bespoke hat was available for Indy 4.

In summary, I think HJ did care about the original hat, since Swales took the time to stamp IJ into the sweatbands of the hats that were made for Harrison Ford himself, which is visible in the hat that sold recently, but those original hats were still made with available materials and with the somewhat lack of attention to detail that was common in most hats being produced at the time. They CERTAINLY didn’t care as much as the makers of the hat for Indy 4.

I feel it’s a good thing the hats were made the way they were, because it lends to the character of the hat and gives room for lively discussion!

Wow, you DID pull one out of the back of the closet, didn't you?

Well, as with anything, nothing is 'cut and dry' in this hobby.

One fly in the ointment is DN's constant insistence that THE hat she first chose wasn't a stock Poet, but an 'Australian model' that HJ had around....what ever THAT was...and that Richard Swales just took his pair of scissors and cut the brim to a dimensional cut, and VIOLA! Raiders hat!

Mr. Swales then insisted when questioned later that it was simply a wide brimmed Poet they had on the shelf, and THAT was the one they modified to be 'the hat'.

She says it wasn't, he said it was......and as with all histories, the 'survivor' writes the history, and Mr. Swales has been gone for several years now.

On and on it goes.....

Regards! Michaelson

I’m glad it goes on! Makes it more fun to me. The Australian model is something I found very interesting in the record. Especially since I never was able to find a Herbert Johnson Australian listed anywhere. But, who knows what was on display in the shop and how it was listed. Perhaps there was a one-off listed as the Australian model and that was used to make the original design. I would guess that an Australian is unlikely as a production hat if an example of one or a listing of one has never been found.

Also, there is the matter of Deborah Nadoolman saying she was in the hat shop and Swales saying Harrison Ford and Spielberg came in to the shop. I would surmise both are true, as Ford probably did need to be fitted for the hat and Swales made some adjustments based on him wearing it. But Nadoolman had to have a hand in the design, and she probably went to Herbert Johnson first. Maybe even that Australian vs Poet thing happened between the time Nadoolman picked it out and Ford was fitted the same as the boots.

Ah well, as you said, on it goes! It’s great for there to be a place like this for the discussion. As well as the wealth of information here!

Thanks!

If I had to guess, I would say that Australian model came from the appearance of the un-modified Poet. The brim of the ones I’ve seen have somewhat of a “drover” appearance which is Australian. But, I think the only way to put that mystery to rest is if Deborah Nadoolman was to clarify exactly what she meant by an Australian model, or if a Herbert Johnson Australian comes up for sale and it bears a more of a resemblance to the Raiders hat than the Poet. Probably Nadoolman couldn’t have cared less what Herbert Johnson called the hat, only what it looked like to her!

I also saw her message where she didn’t remember Richard Swales, but said he might have had something to do with the sequels. That sounds to me like she is thinking of the production business rather than connecting Richard Swales with Herbert Johnson. Again, supposition, but she probably worked briefly with Swales on the design, and then someone else like a production assistant handled the business end of getting the order fulfilled while Nadoolman had other things to attend to. There is so much to theorize on, and the only way to know for sure is to get confirmation from the individuals themselves. Sadly it’s impossible to get more information from Richard Swales, and everyone else’s memory has likely faded by now.

If the hat was poorly made (or made to look that way) has anyone considered the time period of the movie? I mean, it's in the heart of the Depression- something that not only affected the US but the whole world. Indy is risking life and limb to get paid for artifacts. I don't think he would justify spending good money on a hat to wear out in the field knowing how it is going to be treated. That extra cash would go to meals, transportation, visas, etc. Just my theory.

RegDwight wrote:If I had to guess, I would say that Australian model came from the appearance of the un-modified Poet. The brim of the ones I’ve seen have somewhat of a “drover” appearance which is Australian.

My thinking is DNL called it an Australian model because of the wide brim. She was still new in her career and had just come off being costume designer for The Blues Brothers. Great hats, but stingy brimmed. In the early 80's, wide brimmed fedoras would have been even more rare than today so any super wide brim could easily be associated with "Australian" wide brimmed hats.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Very true, Indiana Jeff. Especially if the stingy brim hat was popular, the Poet could have been the widest brim on display in the shop. Herbert Johnson might not have had their McAlpine or other wide brims on display. If I recall correctly, HJ said the Poet was one of their most popular wide brim styles. Nadoolman could have easily associated that with an Australian model if most other hats in the shop were a stingier brim design.

Also, re the time period Raiders was set in, it does make sense that, especially with what he put that hat through, Indy wouldn’t have spent a ton of money on his hat. That means that the quality of the materials such as the felt werent premium grade, hence the droopy quality of the felt in the heat and when it got wet. However the craftsmanship I believe was a result of the general decline in the hatting industry in the late 70s. Especially with what was said earlier in this thread that old Stetsons and HJs were very well made, while Raiders era HJs were decent but not the exquisite craftsmanship of older hats, or the custom hats being made now. And HJ declined as the quality of the hats in the sequels was lacking when compared with the Raiders.

I don't think that the hat was chosen to represent a "cheap" depression era hat. Although not explicitly from Raiders alone, over the course of the films, we are given enough context to deduce that the tenured professor of archaeology is fairly financially secure (like the fact that he's got two hats during the depression).

Also, relative to modern felts (both contemporary to Raiders and now), even a "cheap" hat during that period would have compared favorably. There are a lot of surviving examples of Stetson No. 1 Quality hats, which was their lowest grade of felt for several decades. Store brand hats like Penney's Marathon are still around too. Since mercury was still in use during felt production, it's likely that a real world Dr. Jones would have had a nicer hat than an 80's HJ.

Overall hat industry quality really started to decline in the 60's. Ironically, conventional wisdom over on TFL was that Borsalino was still making decent stuff until they closed the original factory in 1987.

I doubt anywhere near that much thought went into it.

It was the late 70s. Spielberg wanted to make a movie like Secret of this Incas, complete with a copy of Harry Steele's costume.

They needed a wide brimmed fedora.

Production was based in London. They had a few choices for hatters in London and ended up buying a Herbert Johnson Poet from Swaine Adney, which was kind of a cool and easily accessible shop at the time. It could just as easily have been James Lock, but it was a bit more out of the way and probably didn't carry what they wanted.

(As an aside, I bought a few things at Swaine Adney in 1977 and 1979. The shop was easy to find, and easy to get to and from using available transportation. Upper quality British stuff, but a lot of it was relatively affordable. Had I known I would have bought a hat along with the umbrella, the triple flask and the single hip flask I did buy. )

I would be shocked if the thought process exceeded finding a suitable style hat, having a few of them slightly modified to work, then beating them up to make them look old. People just weren't as obsessed with this stuff in 1979 as they are now. Had they asked to have a hat made "cheaply" and to look "old" they probably would have received a blank stare and been told "we don't do that here."

As far as hat quality goes, hats in the late 70s were just not great hats. I bought a Stetson Open Road to replace the one I got from my grandfather and was bitterly disappointed by the quality of the new ones. I bought a couple of Akubras that were much better, but still nothing like what we can buy now, or anything like the vintage stuff. Hats were not worn at the time, weren't popular and no-one really cared about their quality.

BTW - I do have a Borsalino that I bought in '84 and it IS a pretty nice hat.

Time -- in this case, nearly 40 years -- makes memories hazy, which could certainly account for differing recollections from folks who worked on RAIDERS, like Deborah Nadoolman and the late Richard Swales.

At a recent sci-fi convention in Baltimore, William Shatner mis-remembered which character he played in THE ANDERSONVILLE TRIAL, a great Civil War drama in which he starred on public TV in 1969. But he did have excellent recall when I asked him about a specific acting choice he made when shooting STAR TREK III a dozen years later.

And I was recently interviewed by 3 different writers working on books about the animated NBC STAR TREK TV series, for which I wrote in 1974 when I was a college kid. Although I've told a lot of my rookie-writer stories at conventions over the years, it wasn't until I dug into my (paper) files that I discovered details I'd long since forgotten.

So it's NOT necessarily true that it's the knees that go first!

Fading memories would definitely make it difficult to get any new information now. I would personally put more stock in what Richard Swales said than Deborah Nadoolman, since she had a lot more to worry about than just the hat, and Swales only had involvement with the hat. Also in trying to pick out a hat, she may have had her memories get smooshed together while shopping at different hat shops, and we know for certain that the hats used came from Herbert Johnson and Swales was involved in making the actual screen used hats.

What has ALWAYS made me scratch my head was a piece of info that Mr. Swales himself told me back mid 80's that I've never heard anywhere else, nor have seen referenced but in discussions we had at Indyfan.....and that was that Ford personally purchased a fedora at Christies while in London shopping and being fitted for the jacket and looking for hats.

Folks argued for quite a while whether or not that Christie's fedora ever made it into the film, as Ford was notorious in getting his own personal wardrobe items into production situations, like his own Alden boots that replaced the Red Wings that DN recalls so vividly. but were NEVER used in the film.

The Christie's hat discussion slowly went away, as there was NO way to prove it one way or the other.....but the source was always interesting....Richard Swales of HJ....and as usual, circumstantial 'evidence' of a second possible hat being on set during production.

I do recall Mr. Swales was a bit miffed at it, as Ford didn't purchase an HJ himself.

Then again, Mr. Swales could have made the story up to divert work away from his shop and over into Christie's direction, as for the LONGEST time Indy fans were considered the 'unwashed masses' of customers that were suddenly showing up on HJ's doorstep asking for duplicate hats to be made of Indy's fedora. Needless to say, I am SO pleased those days are over, and HJ embraces us now with open arms!

That said, was this the source of the Cury felt as possibly being used at Christie's, where HJ is saying their source has been Boralino through the 80's? Cury claims to have supplied the felt to HJ during that time period, but no paper documentation was ever presented as proof. It was always left at that as Mr. Swales couldn't 'recall' if they were...or weren't, so became 'canon'.

When contacted back in the day, Christie's wouldn't reveal their felt supplier, so that was a dead end too. Up until recently, most hat makers DIDN'T reveal where they got their cones. They considered it a 'trade secret', so 'we' collectively knew that was a shot in the dark in asking, but at least we tried.

One more of those 'we'll never know' tales, I'm afraid, and an old debate that ran up and down the field for years with no final answer.

There are a LOT of them in this hobby, if you haven't noticed by now.

Sort of like the gloves debate. They FORGOT to bring gloves to production, so they just grabbed what was available off grips who were working on the set at the time. The contract with Paramount at the time were for both Wells Lamont AND MidWest gloves to be available for grip and electricians. Folks eventually settled with the WL as being the 'standard' for their collection, but no one KNOWS for sure, as both brands were equally used on set.

On and on.....

Regards! Michaelson

Michaelson wrote:What has ALWAYS made me scratch my head was a piece of info that Mr. Swales himself told me back mid 80's that I've never heard anywhere else, nor have seen referenced but in discussions we had at Indyfan.....and that was that Ford personally purchased a fedora at Christies while in London shopping and being fitted for the jacket and looking for hats.

Folks argued for quite a while whether or not that Christie's fedora ever made it into the film, as Ford was notorious in getting his own personal wardrobe items into production situations, like his own Alden boots that replaced the Red Wings that DN recalls so vividly. but were NEVER used in the film.

The Christie's hat discussion slowly went away, as there was NO way to prove it one way or the other.....but the source was always interesting....Richard Swales of HJ....and as usual, circumstantial 'evidence' of a second possible hat being on set during production.

I do recall Mr. Swales was a bit miffed at it, as Ford didn't purchase an HJ himself.

Then again, Mr. Swales could have made the story up to divert work away from his shop and over into Christie's direction, as for the LONGEST time Indy fans were considered the 'unwashed masses' of customers that were suddenly showing up on HJ's doorstep asking for duplicate hats to be made of Indy's fedora. Needless to say, I am SO pleased those days are over, and HJ embraces us now with open arms!

That said, was this the source of the Cury felt as possibly being used at Christie's, where HJ is saying their source has been Boralino through the 80's? Cury claims to have supplied the felt to HJ during that time period, but no paper documentation was ever presented as proof. It was always left at that as Mr. Swales couldn't 'recall' if they were...or weren't, so became 'canon'.

When contacted back in the day, Christie's wouldn't reveal their felt supplier, so that was a dead end too. Up until recently, most hat makers DIDN'T reveal where they got their cones. They considered it a 'trade secret', so 'we' collectively knew that was a shot in the dark in asking, but at least we tried.

One more of those 'we'll never know' tales, I'm afraid, and an old debate that ran up and down the field for years with no final answer.

There are a LOT of them in this hobby, if you haven't noticed by now.

Sort of like the gloves debate. They FORGOT to bring gloves to production, so they just grabbed what was available off grips who were working on the set at the time. The contract with Paramount at the time were for both Wells Lamont AND MidWest gloves to be available for grip and electricians. Folks eventually settled with the WL as being the 'standard' for their collection, but no one KNOWS for sure, as both brands were equally used on set.

On and on.....

Regards! Michaelson

Inconclusive? But still fascinating!
As a relative newcomer here (5 or 6 years since I discovered Indygear.com and the forum), I appreciate the "old-timers" sharing these tales.

Absolutely! If it didn't continue to fascinate, I would have moved on LONG ago....but then, I'm one of the old timers around this place, so I guess I'm stuck with janitorial duties until I retire....

Regard! M

Oh my, I love these posts! Such interesting reading. I read an old post here where someone stated they met Richard Swales in the London shop and he mentioned that HJ used Christie’s to manufacture their hats and the felt source was Brazilian. No mention of Cury there, but, another tie to Christie’s. The only way to know for sure would be if some records show up. I wouldn’t hold my breath, but, I do believe if any information is found, HJ of today would be happy to share it. They didn’t seem to be tight lipped about saying the original Raiders hat was a factory hat of unclear origin, but the sequels were certainly Borsalino. And also, since Christie’s was manufacturing their hats up until they went bespoke a year or so ago, wouldn’t be interesting if Christie’s was the manufacturer of the Raiders hat....

I do believe the information Michaelson shared to be an extremely valuable resource, especially as it was collected years ago closer to the making of the hat. In addition to being valuable information, it’s just a great read too. Thanks!

FYI, Cury is the Brazilian source. They still exist.

Steve Delk finally found them and obtained some cones to try making a few hats from.

He was not impressed, and didn't pursue any further contact with them.

Regards! M

Oh, I didn’t doubt Cury as being the Brazilian felt source. Just that it wasn’t specifically mentioned in the post I was referencing. But it was surmised that the felt was Brazilian (Cury) sourced to HJ through Christie’s. And I guess the change was when HJ went from Christie’s (Raiders) to Borsalino (ToD-LC). Is this something that has been mentioned recently? I believe it was a post by Delk in 2005ish.

No, it hasn't been brought up in a LONG time.

Regard! M

Thanks for the information! It makes the mystery even more enticing!

I am in no way qualified to comment in detail on the structure and make-up of the hat so I won't try.

In my experience in the field of (1980's) movie making, the hat was reconfigured to look like the Aussie style but more than that, it was a costume prop first and foremost and therefore I believe it was created very much like a prop was - modified and fit for purpose.

Looking at the Raiders jackets in the archives and the one GWL used to have in his office I always am struck by the relatively poor condition of them. This is arguably because there were fewer of them and therefore the jackets were used hard and more frequently than the current batch were but, it also looks to me as if the first jackets were also made in the same way as the hat - only with the single movie in mind, rough, prop-like and functional.

M

Maybe Mark. Period A2 jackets were not always put together well. Today’s repros are much more perfect in how they are constructed. Yet those same war time jackets survive and are wearable aside from some dry rot in the threads, liners or knits. I have another theory. I think they are in such poor condition because of the steps taken to distress them for the movie. Lots of vintage jackets from WWII are still out there. Some being worn. Thinking of the A-2 jacket here. Those jackets were through the real deal, yet they live on with today’s collectors.

We don’t know today what all our artificial aging will do to our jackets when they have been around for as many years. Though anything not being worn will also suffer. If I had two jackets. One worn and one I just put in a display rack, the one I wear will look more worn but will be wearable still. The natural oils and moisture that transfer from my body to the jacket will aid that process.

I don't disagree with you in the least regarding the stresses of weathering but in fairness, the TOD jackets were arguably equally distressed (from what I have seen first hand) and they are in far better shape then the Raiders costumes are today - so for me its not only about the weathering..

It's not so much a question of if the jackets and hats were made well or made badly but rather that they were costumes first and foremost that were were thrown together - using items that were to hand - exclusively for the purposes of shooting a single (there were no plans to make a sequel at that stage) b-grade movie.

I believe that this quick and dirty method of preparing the costumes added to the fact that there were so few of each costume element available - which resulted in exponentially more wear and tear - could also be part of the reason for what they look like today.

Maybe storage then. I mean at least for Raiders where as was discussed before, back then there wasn’t as much thought into posterity maybe.

One more factor I'd like to toss into the mix for you folks to mull over.....

The thought process regarding items like jackets between U.S. vendors and European vendors is quite different.

Peter once told me he NEVER understood the mind set of the U. S. buyer, as 'we' want items that will survive a nuclear blast and can be passed on practically unscathed to our great grandchildren.

He said THEIR idea of jacket making was that they were a seasonal item. You bought one this year, you wore it out, then bought another next year....rinse and repeat....

So, the original Indy jackets by Wested were made to last a season (he called it his 'summer weight' jacket), and tossed aside.

That kept the price down, and them VERY competitive in the market for film and TV work.

It wasn't until 'we' collectively beat on their door regarding robustness that they changed the way they made their jackets and we are now seeing jackets lasting for years.

I have no clue if that was also the business practice of HJ, but let's face it, they make their money on return traffic.....not one time sales.

WE, on the other hand, buy hats from our hat makers, then have them rebuilt, and rebuilt, and rebuilt......

Just some more grist for the mill based on original direct conversations 'back in the day'.

That said, this is the hat section, so I guess we need to swing this train back on the track....

Regards! Michaelson

Back to the hat train, I think that business practice applied to HJ back in the day. I remember reading someone say that Swales mentioned that the Poet was a seasonal hat, made to be purchased and worn through the season, then it would eventually get used up and you’d buy a new Poet. So, I think that the hats were probably made the same as the jacket. And back to the original thought of the thread, I don’t think the Raiders hat was made especially poorly. Just a typical Poet craftsmanship of the day, with style modifications.

Michaelson wrote:One more factor I'd like to toss into the mix for you folks to mull over.....

The thought process regarding items like jackets between U.S. vendors and European vendors is quite different.

Peter once told me he NEVER understood the mind set of the U. S. buyer, as 'we' want items that will survive a nuclear blast and can be passed on practically unscathed to our great grandchildren.

He said THEIR idea of jacket making was that they were a seasonal item. You bought one this year, you wore it out, then bought another next year....rinse and repeat....

...

Regards! Michaelson

I European-Dutch in fact- and have also lived in England for several years. I find that an odd thing to say. We definitely look for durability in our clothe, shoes, cars, and especially with a relatively expensive leather jacket we would expect to get at least several years of use out of it. There is no way leather jacket would be regarded as a seasonal item except perhaps as in for the season, as in autumn or spring which is typically when you would wear a leather jacket

Well, it sure puzzled Peter at the time, and he told several of us that too.

Then again, he considered the Indy jacket a costume piece and originally NEVER meant for real world consumption....so maybe that would explain the disconnect?

Now, back to the topic at hand.....

Regards! M

I wonder what people generally feel regards Raiders hat: modified factory HJ hat vs fully bespoke hat. Seen lots of posts that point to both possibilities. I kind of think it may have been a factory hat because of pics of the interior of the screen used hat for sale, showing 7 1/4 stamped in the felt under where the liner would be. It seems they wouldn’t do that if the hat was completely bespoke. But, the Raiders hat looks like the ribbon and bow was done well by hand, and the ones in the sequels do not look like that. Also in the late 70s, was anyone doing bespoke hats? Even if HJ did at one time, with the fall of the hat market, most quality hat brands had fallen from their prior greatness.