Was the Raiders fedora intentionally made poorly?

[DR Ulloa]

I've been going over this in my head and I can't wrap my head around this. We know that the Raiders hat was a bespoke hat. Noodleman has said so and I believe her. She has no reason to lie about this and explains why the Raiders hat is so different from ToD and LC.

We also know that Swales made the hats. Now here is what puzzles me. If this was a bespoke hat, why does it look so poorly made? Was the hat made to look like a poorly made hat or was this Swales just trying to pump out as many hats as possible to meet a deadline?

Steve and Marc had a deadline to meet and NONE of the CS hats are anything but perfect. Why couldn't Swales do the same? Maybe he's not that great a hatter.

Looking at the Raiders hat, we can clearly see the ribbon stitching and the bow stitches. The ribbon is tacked down in the middle and not towards the bottom as is customary with bespoke and custom hats. One of the reasons Steve, Marc, and John can get their bows perfect is because you can clearly see the spots where the bow is stitched and it's not done at the very corner of each leg of the bow, where it traditionally should be.

Now, Marc says that the block used for the Henry is THE BLOCK. I believe him. So this factory that is making the Henry had to have been the one HJ was using at the time. Swales may or may not have had the very same block in hand at the London store to refurbish the Poets that would be coming in for reblocks, but, in the 80's not many of those were happening. He may have just had a similar block. So, these hats may have come to Swales pre blocked and ready to go. All that was needed was the sweat and ribbon sewn in. That means that Swales would have had even less work to do than our boys did for this last film.

I just can't see why this hat would have been made so shody. We know the dimensional cut was to give the hat a well worn look, but poor quality is poor quality. Lets face it, the Raiders hat was a badly made hat with poor materials. Is anyone else confused about this? Is Richard Swales a bad hatter? Does anyone really care about this? All I know is that this adds to the mystery of the hat.

Dave

[Ranger36]

Deleted

[Texan Scott]

I'm just throwing out a few thoughts...

The Raiders hat was sat on and in other ways distressed, potentially losing its shape. It was meant to look like a well worn hat that Indy would have rotated to his 'adventure wear', rough-housed in.

In the making of Raiders book, page 3 of the photos, (Ford is on the left looking at the idol with filming crew) it looks like a very nice hat from appearances, of course this was early on in the filming process, so no outside work had been done.

Maybe some of the differences in the newer screen used hats vs. the Raiders hat is attributable to refinement of technique used to make them? Also if you and I are asked to paint the same landscape your approach might be different from mine?

Another could be the use of the more durable beaver felt vs. rabbit?

I don't think there is any more committed to reproducing the Indy hat in its minutia as vendors are today.

[DR Ulloa]

I'm not talking about distressing the hat though. I'm talking about the hat itself. Its not a well made hat. John, Steve, or Marc would not have let something like that out of their doors, I can tell you that. But, it is the hat that we have grown to love.

Dave

[Texan Scott]

I don't think it was intentionally made poorly, it may just be the difference in materials and techniques? If you are asked to crank out 30 hats or so on a moments notice, this too could have been a factor.

[DR Ulloa]

Then Swales isn't the hatter everyone cracks him up to be. Again, I use Steve and Marc as an example. They made those hats in very short notice and you don't see that type of work in CS. This has nothing to do with thechniques and materials. It is POOR CRAFTSMANSHIP!

Dave

p.s. Not yelling at you, by the way, just wanted emphasis.

[agent5]

Nobody knows just how much Nadoolman and her crew artificially distressed the hats before they were used for the film. Perhaps they were made as Swales saw they needed to be and then they were roughed up just for the film.

[Michaelson]

Not sure either, but another thing to factor in was the attitude everyone seemed to get from HJ at the time (and even later). They were/are a shop who operate with a royal warrant from the Queen. They cater to that particular crowd, and quite honestly, anything done outside that clientelle seemed, at times, beneath their dignity. Sort of having to deal with the 'unwashed masses'.

I'm not saying this out of any 'spite' at all. This was exactly what everyone experienced with them from the get-go. Sometimes you'd call and the clerk who answered (even Swales himself) were as friendly and as open as your next door neighbor....the next time you'd call, you thought you had the small pox. We were even told they had absolutely NO interest in dealing with anything outside their Royal warrant!

I think this is reflected in what Swales was making for the film. Sure, it was at the direction of the costume director, but at the same time, if they made it 'rough' enough, maybe they wouldn't be 'bothered' again by those outside the 'circle'.

Cynical, I know....but completely based on dealings with HJ and Swales in the past.

To repeat an oft told tale, it was supposed to be another reason that Ford reportedly went to Christies and purchased his own hat from them (told by Cristies personnel at the time). They claimed that hat appeared at least once in the film. Ford was supposedly turned off by the way he/they were treated at HJ, but HJ could turn around the order in short order, where Christies just didn't have the time or stock to do the work.

True? False? Who knows. Just another one of those old stories that went around during our original research.


Regards! Michaelson

[Ranger36]

Deleted

[mark seven]

I love the way the Raiders lids are a little bit 'off'(same with the jacket! )
I love the mystery of it..it's those strange little details(mistakes?)that give the Raiders hat it's magic.

[BendingOak]

I think you are right for the most part David.
lets take how the bow and ribbon was tacked to the hat as a example. The point for taking down the ribbon that goes all the way around the hat is to make sure the ribbon doesn't slide up and show the stitching of the sweatband. whats the point of putting them above the sweatband stitching???? There is none. The stitches on the bow should at the very least in the corner not floating all over the place. You could even hide them behind the fold of the bow so you don't see them at all but that would take more time. I don't think he's a bad hatter just rushed and didn't care about the movie people at the time. He's making hats for the royal family so he most likely knows where his butter is bread.

I wish I had the photo but someone here posted the idea of a wire in the brim. The reason for the thought of the wire in the brim is because in the screen grabs it had this line going from the brim break to the brim edge. I had this same thing happen to me in a very early hat that I had made. That hat never left my front door. The line is from a left over wrinkle when blocking the hat that didn't get iron out properly and does show up until after pouncing and flanging the hat. a lot of work went into this hat and then to have this show up is very hard to throw out but I do. I believe thats what that line was in the screen grab of the Raiders hat was. Makes more sense then a wire.

If thats the fact. it's another reason that I think the Raiders hat was rushed and not a lot of care went into the finishing of it.

Now, before everyone get their rope out hangs me with it. I still love that hat (HJ) and would take one of the screen used hats over any other hat made.


I'll go stand in the back of the class now.

[DR Ulloa]

To repeat an oft told tale, it was supposed to be another reason that Ford reportedly went to Christies and purchased his own hat from them (told by Cristies personnel at the time). They claimed that hat appeared at least once in the film. Ford was supposedly turned off by the way he/they were treated at HJ, but HJ could turn around the order in short order, where Christies just didn't have the time or stock to do the work.

True? False? Who knows. Just another one of those old stories that went around during our original research.


Regards! Michaelson

I have never read that before. Very interesting. Hey, maybe the Christy's is SA afterall!

Dave

[Michaelson]

It's been posted before, but no one ever listened or believed, so we just let it drop. This goes clear back to our Indyfan days.

Thing was, no one at Christie would ever say what scene the hat was worn in. They'd just wink and nudge you and that was the end of it. Circumstantial evidence doesn't get you very far in this hobby, don't cha know?

Regards! Michaelson

[DR Ulloa]

I think you are right for the most part David.
lets take how the bow and ribbon was tacked to the hat as a example. The point for taking down the ribbon that goes all the way around the hat is to make sure the ribbon doesn't slide up and show the stitching of the sweatband. whats the point of putting them above the sweatband stitching???? There is none. The stitches on the bow should at the very least in the corner not floating all over the place. You could even hide them behind the fold of the bow so you don't see them at all but that would take more time. I don't think he's a bad hatter just rushed and didn't care about the movie people at the time. He's making hats for the royal family so he most likely knows where his butter is bread.

I wish I had the photo but someone here posted the idea of a wire in the brim. The reason for the thought of the wire in the brim is because in the screen grabs it had this line going from the brim break to the brim edge. I had this same thing happen to me in a very early hat that I had made. That hat never left my front door. The line is from a left over wrinkle when blocking the hat that didn't get iron out properly and does show up until after pouncing and flanging the hat. a lot of work went into this hat and then to have this show up is very hard to throw out but I do. I believe thats what that line was in the screen grab of the Raiders hat was. Makes more sense then a wire.

If thats the fact. it's another reason that I think the Raiders hat was rushed and not a lot of care went into the finishing of it.

Now, before everyone get their rope out hangs me with it. I still love that hat (HJ) and would take one of the screen used hats over any other hat made.


I'll go stand in the back of the class now.

Now, thats something I hadn't thought of. We all know the HJ is the hatter to the royal family, but I never thought of Swales as being that guy. The image just never crossed my mind. He would never have sent a hat like that to Buckingham Palace. And like you said, you wouldn't let a hat with that wrinkle leave your front door, no self respecting hatter would have either, which is why this is so puzzling.

Even if HJ was the hatter to the royal family and this job was beneath them, their name was still on that hat and specifically Swales. The idea that this film might actually take off and people find out that they made the hat must have crossed their minds at least once. Now their name is branded with the Raiders hat, good and bad.

Don't get me wrong here. I love the Raiders hat and it is the reason I wear hats in the first place. I'm just trying to sort things out in my head and figured I'd let you guys in on my mental diarreah.

Dave

[Michaelson]

I guess it just depended on who was in the store at any given time. Like I said, some were absolutely a customer service dream, and others were a nightmare and could have cared LESS what others thought. That warrant gave them all they needed to do high end work, and if their name was/is thought highly at that level, who cared what others thought? If you came back to buy again, fine...but otherwise, it made no difference to them one way or the other.

Sure, they wanted the credit for the work...but not necessarilythe repeat business. As it was, they got it for TofD and LC, but man were those hats rubber stamped and mailed in.

Regards! Michaelson

[theinterchange]

This is a fairly interesting discussion. So, I'll add my thoughts.

My personal "off the top of my head" thought when I read Dave's first post is this. The hats were rushed, so they were made half heartedly. BUT with the intention that with movie magic aging, they'd look pretty crummy and beat up easier.

Randy

[BendingOak]

This is a fairly interesting discussion. So, I'll add my thoughts.

My personal "off the top of my head" thought when I read Dave's first post is this. The hats were rushed, so they were made half heartedly. BUT with the intention that with movie magic aging, they'd look pretty crummy and beat up easier.

Randy

I agree with this.

[Fedora]

These days I think Swales was told the hat was gonna get distressed, and it needed to look like an old friend. So, he wasn't that particular when he made the hats fast. I also think he ordered perhaps a Poet, since it was sold at one time, and reblocked it in the shop to the same block he used on the Aussie hat, to shorten up the crown. This would account for us seeing no stitches holding the sweat in, the Raiders fedora. He resewed in the sweats, and raised up his stitches, like they used to do it. We can see the stitches at the brim break in TLC fedora.

I think the bow work was the best on the Raiders fedora, when compared to the TOD or TLC hat. Totally different work. Why they raised up the ribbon retaining stitches, I don't understand. That looks like something a factory would do, and not a bespoke hat. So that puzzles me. The vintage HJs I have owned, were not raised up like that. But, it is also easier to put them in,up high, and use the end of the reeded tape as a marker to get them the same distance from the bottom of the ribbon. If speed was important, I would put them up high too. Just a bit less trouble.

Michaelson is dead on with his comments towards the varying attitudes one got from H.J. We heard some good stories, and bad ones. Seems like more bad than good though. At their worst, they exhibited snobbery to the nth degree. We got the idea that Swales really did not want to be bothered by the strange Indy gear fans. But, we still persisted.

Yeah, Dakota, that line is just a wrinkle. Hard to get them out of beaver, and easy to get them out of rabbit. But many times, you can get rid of them, just to have them come back when the hat gets wet. The heavy iron job gets negated, and the felt remembers. Sometimes, but NOT all the time. That's hatting for you. Too many variables. Fedora

[Marc]

When I spoke to Swales on the phone SEVERAL years ago, he was very, very kind. The way you'd expect to be treated from an old Gentleman. However, at the same time he had this "boy, I'm just SO above you" attitude in his voice that it peeed me off big time back then. I've heard from various Indy fans that if you wanted good customer service, to walk into the shop with an attitude as if you could buy the entire place and CERTAINLY not as someone with little self confidence or even "worse" with gear on. The most "terrible" of all "sins" however is said to wear an non HJ Indy Fedora. Going by the conversation I had with him back then, I can only believe this.

As for the craftmanship of vintage HJ's, I've been lucky to see SEVERAL HJ's from the Raiders era. Some were ok, while others were actually nice. The material was really luxury back then. A rabbit felt like this is rare as chicken's teeth nowadays and that has a very simple reason: costs of labor. 30 years ago the price for the rawmaterials made a big difference between beaver and rabbit / hare. Nowadays, most of the costs are due to labor and hence you'll see more and more traditional craftmanships go out of business. Today, most felt manufacturers that produce beaver felt concentrate on gaining the best results here and take the rabbit and blended felts as a side product (and even among them, there are many that take a shortcut here and there - just walk into the next hat shop and have a quick look at the big brand names there). The others concentrate on making as many rawbodies as possible per hours, so they're not into producing what the COULD neither.

Anyway, back to the HJ's. I have not seen a single vintage HJ that comes NEAR what John, Steve and I are doing craftmanship wise. I was fortunate to take one Raiders era HJ completely apart while making TONS of pictures and notes. I was not impressed back then and to this day I'm not. With that said, of course I ABSOLUTELY love the look of the Raiders Fedora, but I'll eat a hat if it was great craftmanship.

My Royal Deluxe Stetson from the late 40's is just WORLDS apart. So, rush job or not - the ones made at the same time that were NOT for the movie, certainly weren't any better.

Regards,

Marc

[DR Ulloa]

I knew you boys would add some thoughts! Now I'me even more confused. Maybe this is like the Crystal Skull; the more you try to figure it out, the crazier and crazier you become?

Dave

[BendingOak]

I knew you boys would add some thoughts! Now I'me even more confused. Maybe this is like the Crystal Skull; the more you try to figure it out, the crazier and crazier you become?

Dave

Well, thats the thing we may never really know the whole story.

[DR Ulloa]

Thats part of what I love about this, the fact that we will never know the full story. It lets us get creative but we lose our minds in the process. It's ok. I think I lost it some time ago, so nothing new here.

Dave

[BendingOak]

I read the title of the thread wrong. duh. How dumb I can be. I don't think it was intentional at all. I think like Steve stated. Knowing that it was going t be distressed for the movie and being pressed for time they took a fast route to finishing this set of hats. My guess anyway.

[jts1031]

I tend to think of the Raiders outfit much like the ANH Vader. In Episode IV, the Vader suit was rushed, not a lot of love and care was shown for it, it was half finished, with brush strokes being visible on the painted parts, along with all kinds of scratches and dings. The time and budget just wasn't there to care too much. It was refined and perfected in ESB and RJ. The same thing with Raiders. I don't think there was much care or interest in how perfect this stuff looked on screen. They knew the look they wanted and they got there the quickest, cheapest way they could. In the other movies, they spent more time and effort on it. But since both the ANH Vader and Raiders costume are the first iconic views of these items, these are the ones people tend to latch on to, despite all the imperfections...

[Fedora]

s for the craftmanship of vintage HJ's, I've been lucky to see SEVERAL HJ's from the Raiders era. Some were ok, while others were actually nice.

Yes, I agree. And the farther one moves back in time, with HJ, the workmanship gets excellent. My pre 1980 HJs, are on par with the old Stetsons, in materials and construction. And, they did not place the ribbon holding stitches up on the ribbon, but down at the bottom. The bowwork was also excellent on these old HJs.

I never tire of talking about the Raiders HJ. It is my fav subject. And the mystery surrounding this one hat is inspiring. At least we did get more info with D.L.'s interview I have spoken of. When you consider what she said many years ago, it does give us a better idea of how the hat was created.

I have come to the conclusion, going by her interviews, then and now, that the Aussie had had a tall crown and wide brim. And, she seems to think it was shortened, both brim and crown. That of course requires a reblock of the Aussie hat. To drop the crown down. Now, many Poets come with a 5 3/4 crown, which is too tall for the Raiders fedora. That would make a perfect hat to reblock shorter for Swales, and it was a hat that HJ had at one time offered. That particular hat was out of style in 1980, so none were in stock, in the HJ shop. But, he could order them! And I think that is what he did. But, the stock hats did not match D.N.'s vision, and this is where Swales came in. He modified the Poet to match her vision, as best he could. I think that when the next films came along, he probably got notice from the costume designer, ahead of time, and had the factory he was using, make the TOD hats, as well as TLC hats. And, he got these made with the shorter block, instead of the 5 3/4. To match the height of the Raiders hat. That would then explain why I have seen HJs with shorter crowns,(new) and ones with the 5 3/4 crown. Most have been the 5 3/4 crown, by the way. As time passed, the 5 3/4 crown he originally used and shortened, became the standard Indy fedora from HJ. And that is what we get today. From HJ. This makes good sense in all manner of thinking, if you consider how the hat business works. And by the time D.N. requested a bespoke hat, this service was sorta dead, a relic of the past, of which the English hatters were famous for doing. I doubt Swales was doing many bespoke hats in that era. But, he was familiar with the service. D.N. was explicit in saying, that the Raiders hat WAS not offered at the time, she created the look. With Swales's help of course!! But perhaps the following film hats were just a Poet, with no bespoking.

Now, another scenerio would be, after he created the Raiders fedora for Deb, using a block in the shop, his current factory actually had this block in stock, with the same shape, and same crown height, and he got them to make all of the hats except the prototype. I mean, that is a possibility, and we have to consider it. That would explain better, why the ribbon stitches were so high up, but does not explain the lack of brim break stitching that holds the sweat to the felt, like it appears in TLC. My only concern here is, the lead times for custom work from a factory generally is way too long for filmwork. Lee Kepler can attest to this! He places an order, and then has to wait months and months before they can get to him. The Raiders fedora made in a factory would have to be a special run, as that style of hat was not selling at the time. The short crown, stingy brims were in vogue. But Swales could have called up his factory and told them to send him X number of sable bodies, and he took it from there. This makes more sense to me, personally, knowing what I know of the hat business. And in this light, the Raiders fedora would indeed be a bespoke hat! This is what I want to believe, but is just conjecture. But, it would explain many things in regards to the Raider hat, when compared to what followed in the other 2 films. Plus, it would explain why the hats that followed were not like the hats in Raiders. Because IF, the Raider hat was factory, the TOD an TLC hat should have been clones of the Raider hat. But they were not.

Now, the felt is different in the Raider fedora. That seems to indicate a change of factory, that occured between Raiders and TOD. It is possible his Raider factory had his same block, but the next factory did not, so he just used something close. With more taper, but specified how tall he wanted the crowns to be in the finished hat. Ah, so many possibilities here! But it adds mystique, and really makes us conjecture.

But, one thing I do know. IMO, D.N. got it right the first time around. When Tony took her place, the hat changed. As it did when Bernie took Tony's place. And bespoke hats don't have brim break stitches. It is anathema among hatters to do so! You DON'T put stitches at the weakest point in a hat!!! It makes the brim come off in reblocks. A perfect perforated line, or a dotted line that is very weak when used on rabbit felt. I know from experience, and had to replace an HJ years ago, when I ripped off the brim in the reblock. Swales would have known the right way to sew in a sweat, as anyone who bespoke hats would know. Even the real vintage HJs I have owned had the stitch placement well above the brim break. So, in that respect, we never see these stitches in the Raider fedora. Am I just repeating myself here?? I do tend to do that.

I doubt Swales would even own up to this, due to the business end of hatting. But he might, since he is no longer selling hats, or other items. Wish we could get an interview with him, with the interviewer, having the above knowledge in hand. Only then might we get exactly what he did for Deb with the first Indy hat. But, this lowly fedora to him, might be an imposition. IF he could even remember anything about the first hat.(he has given us two different brim specs to date) Remember, at the time, no one knew what a legacy Raiders was to be. Deb mentions that in that last interview. I recall most things about the CS hat, but have forgotten some details, and it has only been a couple of years since we made those hats. And I am a huge fan to boot. I did do something smart though. I kept Michaelson, and our Admin informed of MOST of the stuff going on at this time, as I knew I would get it confused later on. Marc suggested I write it all down, but the only writing I did, was in the form of emails to those two guys above. And glad I did it. I have CRS, and I knew both would be able to set me straight, later on, if I got things confused. Fedora

[Dutch_jones]

I don't know for sure if swales is still alive, i've heard changing stories regarding that. I'm not too sure.

[DR Ulloa]

I e-mailed HJ a couple months ago inquiring about Swales and if he was still alive but didn't receive an answer. That's customer service for ya!

Dave

[Marc]

HJ DID indeed change factory quite often over the last twenty-thirty years. You can take my word on that one. I couldn't find out if that was always common practice at HJ to change suppliers so often, however during the early-mid 80's they started to change from one factory to the other - whoever made the Poet (I'm only referring to the Poet in this very post here) a little less expensive than the last one got the deal. They even switched back to one of their older factories later on, but this time with the demand to make them (the hats) as cheap as possible.

There are several hints pointing towards Borsalino being one of their felt suppliers as well once - but to this date I haven't been able to prove this.

Gosh... this is gonna be a loooong thread when we're done here Thank you Dave! This is truly a discussion I enjoy

Ok, back to the Raiders HJ. Whoever did that bow back then did a terrific job IMO. Yeah... I know... the stitches could have been a little nicer... ok... but I like the shape. Even asside from being s.a. I think it looks nice. And WHOEVER made that bow, THAT is a person I'd like to interview. I have never seen this bow on ANY other HJ since Raiders. Not in ToD and CERTAINLY not in LC (I HATE the LC bow If the hatter making the Henrys would do it that way, he'd get the hat back right away ). Where was I... oh, ok... the bow. Right. This does support the "bespoke hat" theory as that was truly unique for sure.

Regards,

Marc

[DR Ulloa]

Gosh... this is gonna be a loooong thread when we're done here Thank you Dave! This is truly a discussion I enjoy

Anything to keep you and Steve on here as much as possible.

I am in love with the Raiders bow. Its my second favorite bow of all time. I'm in love with everything about the Raiders hat!

As for the Borsalino felt, I've heard that before. Funny how no one has been able to prove it. Marc, if you can't do it, I don't think anyone can. I just don't know that the felt in Raiders was Borsa felt . By looking at the felt on the Raiders hat and looking at Borsalinos of the same time, I'd say that they don't look right, though it certainly is lightweight enough. But, keep in mind that Deb Noodleman said that when she first went into HJ all they had in stock here Borsa style hats. Is it possible that HJ was in fact using the Borsalino factory and simply had them make whatever Borsa normally got and put an HJ liner and sweat in them?

I've also heard that a South American feltmaker was the one who HJ was using at the time. I've heard it was Curry. The felt is certainly cheap enough to match the Raiders hat. Lets face it, the Raiders felt is better than what most use today, but it was still poor quality rabbit.

Dave

[mark seven]

Lets face it, the Raiders felt is better than what most use today, but it was still poor quality rabbit.

Dave

I'll take that 'poor quality' vintage HJ felt over modern pure Beaver anyday..but then I'm a Rabbit man!

[DR Ulloa]

Oh, I like the way rabbit felt acts and reacts, for all hats, not just the Raiders hat. I love how floppy it becomes once it has been really broken in. And in my opinion if you want a dead on Raiders look, you need that felt. Personally, I prefer to have stuff that will last me as long as I live, so I go with beaver.

I wonder, If Noodleman had gone with Lock, which was the other hat company she mention in that Indyfans interview, would we know a little more about this hat today? I don't get the impression that Lock & Co. is as snooty as HJ. They've worked in film before too, as they made Connery's hats for the early Bond films. But, I'm sure the fact that HJ did make hats for the royal family was part of the allure of going with them in the first place.

Dave

[Marc]

Its my second favorite bow of all time.

What's your favorite bow then please?

Is it possible that HJ was in fact using the Borsalino factory and simply had them make whatever Borsa normally got and put an HJ liner and sweat in them?

Absolutely possible IMO. In fact, that would even safe the hatter doing the brim break and the pouncing, as all he'd have to do, is to remove the trimmings, block it if desired, and then to add his own sweatband and liner. That would be all.

I've also heard that a South American feltmaker was the one who HJ was using at the time. I've heard it was Curry. The felt is certainly cheap enough to match the Raiders hat. Lets face it, the Raiders felt is better than what most use today, but it was still poor quality rabbit.

Not quite. The Raiders felt was RABBIT, yes - and you can even see that in some closeups - however it was NOT poor quality. Some of my vintage HJ have the nicest silky surface you could think of and they're all made from rabbit. So rabbit and poor quality do not HAVE to be the same. Regarding Cury... it could indeed have been that they made rawbodies for HJ once - however their current felt has as much in common with the Raiders felt as a modern HJ does: both can be purchased in brown

I love how floppy it becomes once it has been really broken in.

Oh, but a beaver felt does that too. It just takes MUCH longer. Muuuuuuuuuuuuuch longer

Regards,

Marc

[DR Ulloa]

Oh, I know that beaver can become floppy. My Penman was still softening up when I sent it to John for that new Raiders block and it had become quite floppy. The second hat Steve sent me is VERY floppy and I've only had it a couple of weeks. There is nothing like beaver, thats for sure!

Rabbit and poor quality certainly don't go hand in hand. Just look at all the great looking rabbit hats from the 30's and 40's that still look great. You find them on ebay all the time, just never in a size large enough . The Raiders felt may not have been poor quality felt (and I would be dumb not to listen to you here), but it certainly wasn't great. A good quality felt will not wilt and bulge the way the Raiders hat did. This is part of what makes the hat so alluring and mysterious. A hat with great quality felt would not have reacted that way. It is in rabbits nature to act that way, but a better quality rabbit would have laster longer or at the very least, shown less signs of travelling to Hades and back.

As for my favorite bow, its the one on the hat John made for my wedding. You can see it towards the bottom of this page: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32027&start=750

Dave

[Fedora]

The Raider rabbit felt reminds me of the sort of felt that was used on mid priced felt hats of yesteryear, in texture. Not a Knox, or Dobbs, or the better Stetsons, but similiar to what one would see on the mid range priced hats. Mostly due to the pounce job. The more a hatter pounced a hat the higher the price, due to the added labor, etc. No doubt the Raiders fedora would have pounced out nicely, they just did not do it. But then again, if Swales reblocked an existing hat, part of the factory pounce job would have been negated. Steam does this to rabbit, it opens up the pounce job. Plus, most factory hats are ironed on the ironing machine, after pouncing, and this iron job also makes the felt look smoother. But once a hat get damp, or steamed, this smoothness can go away. But I agree with Dave too. A good vintage rabbit felt would not bulge in such a short time, that the filming took. The high quality felt of yesteryear did not bulge in such a short time, even with heavy wear and use. But, the lower priced and mid grade hats probably would. But the old rabbit felt on the good hats were felted tighter, perhaps because of mercury, but perhaps not. The higher end hats were run through the felting machine more times than a lower grade hat. Again, time equals money. Today, I would bet, they don't pass a body through the felter as many times as they used to, in order to save costs for labor. Labor is the major cost in most manufacturing processes. And hatting still HAS to use more labor than other factories use, as a fully automated hatmaker is non existent. There is still an art involved, but the artists don't seem to be as good, or nonexistant in some cases. A certain amount of art or craftmanship is still essential in turning out an excellent hat. It is just the nature of this particular beast.

You know, I alway felt that HJ went with Borsalino, after Raiders, and at the time they changed the hatter crest to the burgundy oval. Borsalino used an oval that looked almost the same in their own hats, and it's a big coincidence that HJ did too, after Raiders. Perhaps this was just coincidental, not sure. But the resemblence is uncanny.

I can't recall exactly when Borsalino stopped being the same Borsalino that made all of those very fine hats of yesteryear. But they were bought out at some point in time, and this is when you saw the huge drop in quality. I know that for sure. They went from a very fine hat maker, to what is the norm today. Make um' as cheaply and as fast as possible, and remember to put the name Borsalino on the hat! The name, like Stetson still sells, although the original hatmakers are no longer with them. They died. Literally.

Way back, all of the major labels, really took pride in the hats they made. The competition was fierce!! There were even different companies that pandered to the price and quality range. This ran the gamut from the low end hats, to the middle grade, and then to the top of the line hats. Today, the factories, generally speaking, make one grade of hat, the low end hat. Face, it, the market is just not there, generally speaking. And demand dictates the sort of hats we get. But I digress.

I don't think Curry was connected with the Raiders fedora. Now, I was told, by a guy from Resistol, during the time of TOD and TLC that the aftermarket sales of the Indy fedora required many hat factories to make the Indy fedora, to be sold under the Stetson name. The demand was too high for just Stetson to make them. The factory that Ken used where he lives, even made Indy fedoras. The Official hats, that is. And, this was normal, even way back. If one brand could not produce enough hats for a big order, that company would sub out, to other factories, in order to get the contract. I think this is where Curry figured into the deal.

I also doubt that any S. A. company was used to make the HJs. There were just too many factories in the late 70's, and early 80's in Europe that could have been used. Even the U.K. had factories still, but only a few. Why go all the way to S.A. for hats? Perhaps for price? Still, I can't see any savings to speak of, due to the shipping costs. No, I think HJ went with a more local supplier. Plus, getting hats from S.A. in a timely manner is a big joke. You can't do it, from personal experience. They run on different clocks down there. Trust me.

The bowwork on the Raiders hat is certainly different. It says to me, that someone different than the later suppliers, or perhaps even Swales himself made these bows. Sure, you have visible stitches, but really, the only company that ever made hidden stitches, or floating bows is Optimo. I have never seen one vintage hat, that did not have exterior stitches. And I have owned close to 40 vintage hats at one time or the other. Plus, most of the Raider fedoras have been distressed, sat on, etc. This isn't condusive to a clean looking ribbon job. I can't forget that bow that was shown on one of my hats here lately. The gap at the bottom of the bow, was caused by something else, other than me. I don't send out a gap like that. But shrinkage or rough handling can indeed cause this. Look at the bow on Screenused Raiders fedora! Looks ragged, and I doubt that it was recieved like that!

Another thing about the Raiders felt is the brim droop in the SOC hat. Now, putting in a clean brim break, and having that brim break to last is the sign of a good hat. The fact that we get the brim droop is an indicator that the felt was not the best felt out there. I have vintage hats that are just as soft, i.e. no stiffener, that have yet to show this brim droop, even after being soaked many times in rain. But those vintage hats of mine, are much denser rabbit felt, and this may be the reason. I am not saying you can't get a good felt to exhibit brim droop, but it does require some work, with steam and pressue to negate the brim break. The good hats, have actually shrunk up in this area, much like what happens when you flange a rabbit hat. What holds in the curl in a rabbit hat, is the fact that the outer edge of the brim, where the curl is, actually shrinks, and this shrinkage is what holds in the curl in a no shellac hat. Since beaver is harder to shrink, you don't always get enough shrinkage for this curl to last for years. A bit of shellac applied to the edge of the brim is needed in some cases. To take the place of shrinkage.

I think we see shrinkage going on with the Raiders fedora. I mean, how COULD IT NOT? And that is the reason we see different looks in this hat, during the filming. To me, it looks to have lost some height, when you compare scenes. Sure, not much, but I think it did lose some. Some hats appear taller to me than others. The only other culprit would be camera angle. But, we all know how rabbit will shrink, so it had to happen.

To me, part of the look of the Raiders fedora was its ability to distress quite easily. I mean, some of those hats do indeed look like old friends, although they were basically new hats. But they had to get some natural distressing in the filming. It was an action film, after all. I really never thought it looked particularly like a haphazard job in so far as the workmanship. The multitude of stitches on the bow of TLC hat looks shoddy to me. At least they hid the retaining stitches of the knot on the bow of the Raider fedora. And whoever made this hat, did raise up the sweatband retaining stitches, like you see in vintage hats. This is what you have to look at when evaluating the construction. I am fairly certain also that little time was given to actually creating these hats as well. They were on a real fast track, because D.N. only had one hat to start with, and she took it in her personal luggage to France. I think Bernie had around 5 or 6 from Marc and I to take to N.M. Deb seemed to have more time to get the costume together, or that is my impression. And she still did not have but one to start filming with. So something was holding this hat production up. I think it was the bespoke nature of this hat. Afterall, Swales had more duties than just bespoking these hats. Fedora

[Texan Scott]

After these movies were made, did the jackets, shirts & pants, whips, hats etc., ever go into a Lucas archive-storeage room, so that they could be used from movie to movie, if need be, or if they ever ran low, etc? You had mentioned that they ordered enough CS hats to last through the next movie, so they could possibly store them. Just for continuity reasons, accuracy from film to film, it looks like you would want to order more than enough, so the articles could be used on other films, and not be scurrying to match clothing and get stuff made at the last minute for the next film? Where do you think the 'screen used hat' from Raiders fits into the picture? The 'screen used' hat is possibly one of the few surviving fedoras that is linked to Raiders. Do you think that the 'lost' Vic hat hanging on his wall is a Raiders fedora? Being able to examine one could help to clear up some of the mysteries, possibly.

The Temple scenes were filmed first, so the hat was in its best condition with artificial distressing (not distressed in the normal way). So it seems as the movie progressed and scenes were filmed outside, in the heat, dirt, etc., the hat would look differently, taper, etc., toward the end of the movie. Question is how many were used? No one could know for certain.

[Dutch_jones]

Lets face it, the Raiders felt is better than what most use today, but it was still poor quality rabbit.

Dave

I'll take that 'poor quality' vintage HJ felt over modern pure Beaver anyday..but then I'm a Rabbit man!

YEAH !!! exactly thats what makes it special plus beaver felt is really kinda dull in the Indy department.

[Marc]

After these movies were made, did the jackets, shirts & pants, whips, hats etc., ever go into a Lucas archive-storeage room

Jup. There's a walkthrough video of some guy walking through the Skywalker archieves, pulling up several Indy Fedoras that - as far as I remember, are just stacked into a cardboard box, next to a coat hanger full of screen used jackets (if I remember correctly - haven't seen the video quite a while).

Regards,

Marc

[Dutch_jones]

I think at one point it was posted here in the form of youtube videos.

[darthjones]

I met Swales twice in person, once in 1986, once in 1999.

Didn't know what to ask in 86 but he did tell me that the "cruel pinch" on the Raiders hat they did downstairs in the shop.

When I went in during 1999 he mentioned hats being done up in Portugal and mentioned hat bodies from Borsalino - I forget the timing, the degree, and everything else in that conversation (there was a HOT chick working the counter who owned half my attention) but he did mention Borsalino.

I don't know what was in front of me in the shop at the time as I was just going in for a visit/ shopping with a friend who later picked up a non-Indy hat for himself.

[DR Ulloa]

Can anyone of our members in London stop by ask about Swales in a "Hey, I am not a creep and don't want to stalk him" sort of way? Maybe we can get one more good interview out of him and see if we can't clear up some of the mysteries behind THE hat.

Dave

[Fedora]

You had mentioned that they ordered enough CS hats to last through the next movie,

To be clear, they only ordered hats for the Indy 4 film. After the film was in the can, during a conversation with Bernie, he told me he had enough left over to make another Indy film. So, many hats were apparently never used, or, they still looked good enough to use again. Not sure which.

When I went in during 1999 he mentioned hats being done up in Portugal and mentioned hat bodies from Borsalino - I forget the timing, the degree, and everything else in that conversation (there was a HOT chick working the counter who owned half my attention) but he did mention Borsalino.

Sounds like he mentioned at least two suppliers, Marc's and then Borsalino. One has to wonder just how much all three hats ran together in his memory. We have anecdotal accounts from others, in the past that mentioned a South American connection too. I kinda wonder if that wasn't South African, instead of South American. More British connection with Africa than South America. The Empire and all that. Fedora

[Michaelson]

That would make sense, Steve, if 'Cury' hadn't been mentioned by name in the same sentence. Unless they have a factory in South Africa, I doubt it.

Regard! Michaelson

[Fedora]

That would make sense, Steve, if 'Cury' hadn't been mentioned by name in the same sentence. Unless they have a factory in South Africa, I doubt it.

Right, Cury would not have a factory in Africa. I do recall being told that Cury made some of the after film hats, the official hats for sale. And of course, recall that newspaper article, a PR piece, touting Cury as the maker of the Indy fedora.

I know when I got in felt samples from Cury, the felt was really thick, and looked nothing like the Raiders felt. More like cowboy felt to me. And the bodies were the size of thimbles!! I had to laugh when I saw them.

The true history of the Raiders fedora, we may never really know. But, this sort of deal makes for good writing, and theories. We know more now, of course, but still much left to the imagination. And to me, this is much more attractive than knowing "everything" about that hat. Adds to the mystique! Everyone loves a mystery. Fedora

[Michaelson]

Yep.....open ended mysteries are fun...but sometimes you like to close the door on some of them, and some of these just keep going on and on and on....

I often wonder how many wild stories were sewn by the main players just so they could sit back and watch the mahem?

Regards! Michaelson

[Fedora]

often wonder how many wild stories were sewn by the main players just so they could sit back and watch the mahem?

You may be on to something there Mark!! And also, how much misinformation was given, just to keep other hatters from making a particular hat? Now, I know that sort of misinformation goes on! With some hatters. But, your idea is certainly plausible. I find it amusing that Swales NEVER, at least in the accounts we know of, NEVER mentioned a bespoke hat. Of course, if he did, the crazy Indy gear guys, MIGHT want him to bespoke them one. I don't think he would have wanted to do so, personally. Bespoke hats were a relic, even in 1980-81. They only came back with the western hatters in the last few years. But, at one time were prevalent, IF you had deep pockets. These days, there are quite a few hatters doing custom work. History repeats itself. Fedora

[Michaelson]

True. I'm seeing the same thing regarding watches too. What once was 'old' is now 'new' again.

Regards! Michaelson

[Dutch_jones]

Can anyone of our members in London stop by ask about Swales in a "Hey, I am not a creep and don't want to stalk him" sort of way? Maybe we can get one more good interview out of him and see if we can't clear up some of the mysteries behind THE hat.

Dave

I think I posted it somewhere, there is the story that he's dead.... or not I don't know, but what I do know is that Swales retired in 2000.

The thing is:
We don't know what the costume department did to the hat ! Swales could have put a bash in but that might not be the bash we see on screen. Same with the CS hats. Steve can replicate the CS hats he made ( same for marc) but they look hardly like the ones on screen. But that is because the costume department worked on the hats before they were filmed. And its like that with every Indy movie. The blocks at HJ were never changed... Swales has always said this when asked. The way they were bashed did. Deborah Nadoolman is the key to the Raiders gear appearance. And if you are good at bashing a hat you can get a Raiders hat out of a HJ or a Christys' but don't expect a Christys HJ or whatever hat to instantly look like the raiders of the lost ark hat

K

[Fedora]

The blocks at HJ were never changed... Swales has always said this when asked. The way they were bashed did.

Yeah, right. I don't recall anyone ever saying this, per Swales. It is your opinion, but stated as fact.

Let's be fair and say, you can pull off the Raiders look with SOME HJs and Christy hats. But, in person, they don't look as close as some of the pics show. The HJs and Christys I have had in hand certainly look nothing like the Raiders fedora-at all. And if you have to spend alot of time getting one of these hats to look like a Raider hat, chances are, the block is wrong. The right block will lend that look quite easily without trying to finesse it. That is, it takes on that look easily. Ever notice how easily you can pull off the TOD look with these same hats? They take that crease easily, and look the part with little effort. That should be a clue.

Deborah Nadoolman is the key to the Raiders gear appearance.

Yep, and the fact that she had Swales bespoke her vision of the hat. The other two HJs were strictly factory hats, similiar to what you buy today. So, the primary difference is the Raiders hat was custom made, for Deb. The others were not. Just their factory hat. Fedora

[kiltie]

Fedora -
I am by no means throwing down the gauntlet here; just a simple request.
I agree that most hats take a little "umph!" to get them looking Raiders, and I've always thought it would be strange for the wardrobe folks to have just stumbled onto that look if it wasn't something easily attained - especially since it's relatively oddball.
We've got the old "Pagey" tutorial floating around, which I think works well in the right hands, but I - and I'm sure others - would really enjoy seeing a Raiders creasing tutorial from you on one of your hats, just to see how simple it is ( and maybe just to take for a spin on one of the factory hats to see how it compares to the "Pagey" ).
Again - I believe you when you say the blockshape lends to the simplicity, as I just can't imagine the costume designer ( or anyone else ) tweaking and futzing til it was just right - then doing it ten more times. But then, I'm not discounting anyone elses' hats either. I've also seen, with care and persistance, you can get some mighty nice Raiders hats out of a couple of brands.
If your method is one of your hatting secrets, then I fully understand. But there's been a few new requests for a Raiders tutorial, and that old one is the only one floating around.

Thanks

[Marc]

The blocks at HJ were never changed...

I simply could not disagree more on that one! Basicly Dirk, you're calling everybody except Pagey in here too dumb to crease the "right" hat correctly - even if we had it in our hands.

Yes, Nick is terrific at creasing almost any hat into a s.a. Raiders Fedora. And it's also true, that the people at HJ claim how their current hats are basicly IDENTICAL to what they delivered back then. But that this is only a CLAIM! When I confronted one of their Ladies who had worked directly with Swales for years and year, how it comes, that on my vintage HJs the liner is sewn in, the bow done this and that way, the felt being denser, softer, nicer - overall better, the sweatband being of nice leather in opposite to that cardboard something they're using now and even the satin of the liner being WAY nicer back then, she couldn't give me an answer. That's a fact!

Even Nick himself - after receiving his vintage HJ from Steve that Steve did NOT reblock - confirmed that the block used was TOTALLY different then what they use now.

There's only two things that the current HJs have in common with the Raiders HJ. It has "Herbert Johnson" on the sweatband (differently written though) and they're both brown. Period.

Regards,

Marc