Reshaping my Miller hats to ToD style advice appriciated

[Manwiththehat]

Hey. My sister switched the hat band of my indy Miller's hats and I tried reshaping it from raiders to a more temple of doom style but the lower crown I find it very difficult to get a good results so I though I post some pictures and get some feedback from the more into reshaping here
Thanks in advance and sorry for the not best quality pictures

[Western New York Indy]

Here's my advice. I don't know how well versed you already are in hat shaping, so maybe you already know the majority of this information. In that case, if this information seems a bit rudimentary, my apologies.

First off, this is a very nice start! I can already see the inner ToD in that starting to take shape!
Did you using steam or was this a dry reshaping? If you want it to hold the ToD shape I'd recommend using steam. You want to make sure you steam the felt enough that it becomes somewhat pliable. Some people say that you know it is steamed sufficiently when the felt feels "alive." It sounds silly, I know, but it really does describe the feeling you want to get. A clothes steamer or just a pot of boiling water on the stove will work for a steam source. If it's a heavier or thicker felt, this will take a bit longer and a lot more steam than a dress weight felt. If it's a thinner felt, you can use an electric tea kettle like Michelle Poyer-Sleeman at Herbert Johnson does in her videos. Which speaking of, the Herbert Johnson youtube videos are a great resource for hat reshaping.

Standard bashing video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoDL0jmbEuw
Brim shaping video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxW2UsqIF1c&t=136s
Adjusting pinch height video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_f9JaZJibE
Adding definition to the pinch and side dents- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t106FnyojFs

From what I can see in the pictures, I recommend that you drop the bash a bit. If you're happy with the placement of the crease and side dents, then leave them as they are placement-wise. If not, then steam the crown of the hat from the outside (As a general rule, don't steam the inside of the hat) and pop out the bash and side dents. If you re-bash the hat, make sure that it's centered by checking from the bottom of the hat to make sure that it lines up with the back of the sweatband, as well as trying it on to make sure it aligns with your nose. Michelle demonstrates this quite well in the first video I linked. I usually just use my hands and my eye to bash hats, but some people use rulers, and I've even seen some use French rolling pins to achieve a straight bash.

Whether you keep it in the same position or choose to re-bash it, play around with how low the bash goes. The back should be slightly lower than the front. Just keep in mind that the lower you bash the hat, the more the crown will taper. From what I can see in the pictures, your center crease doesn't extend quite far enough in the back, so I would recommend that you steam the back of the crown and use your thumb to pull the crease farther down in the back. Usually you can tell you've gone far enough when the back of the crown is no longer curving towards the top, but rather is straight sided or has a bit of reverse taper.


For the side dents, I'd recommend you add a bit more definition to the back. From what I can tell, they look pretty good in the area closer to the pinch, but could use a bit more definition towards the rear of the hat. Use a hand on the inside of the hat to brace the area where you want the back of the side dent to end and the rest of the crown to begin, then use steam and your other hand to define the lines of the dents. If you want a more tapered crown, bring the dents farther towards the back of the hat.

Find some screenshots of your favorite version of the ToD hat, then study the shapes and lines of the side dents on that hat. Does the top line of the dent follow the top of the crown, or does it slant downwards? Is the rear edge a diagonal line, or does it curve forwards towards the front of the hat? Here are some images of the Herbert Johnson Poet version of the ToD hat as well as the Advintage version. Note the differences in the side dents. (I do not own these images, nor do I claim to own them. Moderators, if I shouldn't be using a company's pictures, please let me know and I will remove them immediately.)





Pick one (or a few) of your favorite versions of the ToD hat as seen in the film and study how the side dents are formed. I wish I had more concrete advice when it came to the dents, but I find it to be a "you'll know when it's right" skill rather than something that you can reduce to an exact formula.

I hope this is helpful, and I apologize for how long-winded it is. If you have any more questions or want advice of any kind moving forward, I would be happy to supply any info that I can.

-WNY Indy

[Manwiththehat]

Here's my advice. I don't know how well versed you already are in hat shaping, so maybe you already know the majority of this information. In that case, if this information seems a bit rudimentary, my apologies.

First off, this is a very nice start! I can already see the inner ToD in that starting to take shape!
Did you using steam or was this a dry reshaping? If you want it to hold the ToD shape I'd recommend either using steam. You want to make sure you steam the felt enough that it becomes somewhat pliable. Some people say that you know it is steamed sufficiently when the felt feels "alive." It sounds silly, I know, but it really does describe the feeling you want to get. A clothes steamer or just a pot of boiling water on the stove will work for a steam source. If it's a heavier or thicker felt, this will take a bit longer and a lot more steam than a dress weight felt. If it's a thinner felt, you can use an electric tea kettle like Michelle Poyer-Sleeman at Herbert Johnson does in her videos. Which speaking of, the Herbert Johnson youtube videos are a great resource for hat reshaping.

Standard bashing video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoDL0jmbEuw
Brim shaping video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxW2UsqIF1c&t=136s
Adjusting pinch height video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_f9JaZJibE
Adding definition to the pinch and side dents- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t106FnyojFs

From what I can see in the pictures, I recommend that you drop the bash a bit. If you're happy with the placement of the crease and side dents, then leave them as they are placement-wise. If not, then steam the crown of the hat from the outside (As a general rule, don't steam the inside of the hat) and pop out the bash and side dents. If you re-bash the hat, make sure that it's centered by checking from the bottom of the hat to make sure that it lines up with the back of the sweatband, as well as trying it on to make sure it aligns with your nose. Michelle demonstrates this quite well in the first video I linked. I usually just use my hands and my eye to bash hats, but some people use rulers, and I've even seen some use French rolling pins to achieve a straight bash.

Whether you keep it in the same position or choose to re-bash it, play around with how low the bash goes. The back should be slightly lower than the front. Just keep in mind that the lower you bash the hat, the more the crown will taper. From what I can see in the pictures, your center crease doesn't extend quite far enough in the back, so I would recommend that you steam the back of the crown and use your thumb to pull the crease farther down in the back. Usually you can tell you've gone far enough when the back of the crown is no longer curving towards the top, but rather is straight sided or has a bit of reverse taper.


For the side dents, I'd recommend you add a bit more definition to the back. From what I can tell, they look pretty good in the area closer to the pinch, but could use a bit more definition towards the rear of the hat. Use a hand on the inside of the hat to brace the area where you want the back of the side dent to end and the rest of the crown to begin, then use steam and your other hand to define the lines of the dents. If you want a more tapered crown, bring the dents farther towards the back of the hat.

Find some screenshots of your favorite version of the ToD hat, then study the shapes and lines of the side dents on that hat. Does the top line of the dent follow the top of the crown, or does it slant downwards? Is the rear edge a diagonal line, or does it curve forwards towards the front of the hat? Here are some images of the Herbert Johnson Poet version of the ToD hat as well as the Advintage version. Note the differences in the side dents. (I do not own these images, nor do I claim to own them. Moderators, if I shouldn't be using a company's pictures, please let me know and I will remove them immediately.)





Pick one (or a few) of your favorite versions of the ToD hat as seen in the film and study how the side dents are formed. I wish I had more concrete advice when it came to the dents, but I find it to be a "you'll know when it's right" skill rather than something that you can reduce to an exact formula.

I hope this is helpful, and I apologize for how long-winded it is. If you have any more questions or want advice of any kind moving forward, I would be happy to supply any info that I can.

-WNY Indy

Thanks for the details I use a clothing-steamer not a iron and sometimes a electric kettle.The sides is very tricky for me to get right and it's also very hard for me to lower the crown for some reason that I'm not sure about.That is a rabbit fur felt hat and it's a lot softer than my Advintage Harrison

[Michaelson]

Proceed carefully as Millers are notorious for tapering after being steamed or getting wet.

Regards! Michaelson

[Western New York Indy]

Thanks for the details I use a clothing-steamer not a iron and sometimes a electric kettle.The sides is very tricky for me to get right and it's also very hard for me to lower the crown for some reason that I'm not sure about.That is a rabbit fur felt hat and it's a lot softer than my Advintage Harrison

Of course! Sorry if it was all a bit rudimentary and long winded.
Yeah, the side dents are tricky. They are what I usually struggle with the most, to be honest. It just takes a lot of fiddling around with them and taking it super super slow.

If you lower the back of the crown, it might take a bit before it sticks that way. I like to hit it with steam, push down the crease to where I want it, and then pinch the back of it together with my fingers. That helps it to stick better from what I've learned.
There might be some resistance left over from the previous bash, so it might take a bit to get the felt to adjust to the new shape.

-WNY Indy

[Howard Weinstein]

Here's a trick I use to make side dents more consistent and predictable, on my Indy fedoras and western hats (and straw hats, too).

After gently steaming the area where I want the dent (or spraying with distilled water if I'm concerned about inducing tapering fur felt with too much steam), silverware spoons of various sizes are ideal tools for indent shaping -- almost like tools for sculpting clay.

The oval shape (wider in the middle, tapered at both ends) and uniform curvature of spoons helps make dents smooth without the lumpiness that can result from using fingers or knuckles. I'll use a large serving spoon to press in the shape of the main indent, then use a smaller soup spoon and a smaller-yet teaspoon to shape the angled corners of the dent where it blends into the front pinch, and at the bottom and rear of the dents.

Work on one dent at a time. Check often and try the hat on to make sure they match. With a little practice, spoons can help in the process of making nicely shaped side dents.

[Manwiththehat]

The problem now it seems is that the pinch has been hard imprinted to the fur felt or something. I have tried So many times now to lower the pinch but it keeps going back to default height ( 5,5") when I'm trying to lower it to 4". It's like it is impossible to remove previous work on it.

[Manwiththehat]

I gave it another go but It's really hard to get the roundness I want on the top of the sides

[Howard Weinstein]

I gave it another go but It's really hard to get the roundness I want on the top of the sides

Manwiththehat, do you happen to have an open-crowned hat block? When I'm trying to do what you're attempting and the crown just ain't cooperating, I always go back to square one -- an open crown that's a starting point for reblocking.

I recently bought a 3D molded plastic open crown #52 block from a guy named Allan Walsh on Etsy who sells as WalshDesign3D. Price is much more affordable than a wooden crown (new or vintage), and he's able to customize the crown in terms of exact size, height and slight shape tweaks. I wear a size 58, so I asked him for a size 57.5, which assured me the hat would fit over the block without getting stuck or putting too much stress on the felt or leather sweatband. #52 is the block that comes very close the classic Indy shape -- kind of squared off and with a flat top instead of rounded, and straight sides all around.

With the #52 block, you can gently work more of the crown felt down the sides and have less up on top, so the center dent doesn't have to be as deep as it would be with a rounded top.

Allan's customer service and turnaround time are excellent. You can see what he offers here -- https://www.etsy.com/listing/1674524148 ... _purchases

[Manwiththehat]

I gave it another go but It's really hard to get the roundness I want on the top of the sides

Manwiththehat, do you happen to have an open-crowned hat block? When I'm trying to do what you're attempting and the crown just ain't cooperating, I always go back to square one -- an open crown that's a starting point for reblocking.

I recently bought a 3D molded plastic open crown #52 block from a guy named Allan Walsh on Etsy who sells as WalshDesign3D. Price is much more affordable than a wooden crown (new or vintage), and he's able to customize the crown in terms of exact size, height and slight shape tweaks. I wear a size 58, so I asked him for a size 57.5, which assured me the hat would fit over the block without getting stuck or putting too much stress on the felt or leather sweatband. #52 is the block that comes very close the classic Indy shape -- kind of squared off and with a flat top instead of rounded, and straight sides all around.

With the #52 block, you can gently work more of the crown felt down the sides and have less up on top, so the center dent doesn't have to be as deep as it would be with a rounded top.

Allan's customer service and turnaround time are excellent. You can see what he offers here -- https://www.etsy.com/listing/1674524148 ... _purchases

Thanks for the info I'm gonna buy one of those since I don't have any open crowned hat blocks my self.I'm a size 61.9 so I'm not sure which of them to choose though.And I wonder what does it mean that it's post processed? ) I can choose post processed or none under order from him.

[Western New York Indy]

For a 3D printed item like this, post processing is the work that is done to the item after it's printed. Usually this entails sanding and filling to smooth out some of the lines left by the printer.

-WNY Indy

[Howard Weinstein]

Yes, what Western NY Indy said. Post-processed is sanded smooth to the touch all the way around. I bought one block with and one without post-processing. The one without has a very slight grooved texture because of the way the plastic is layered. I suspect people will probably be happier with the smooth option, so it's probably worth the extra cost to get the smooth version.

If you have any questions, send a message to Allan and ask before ordering. He's very good about replying quickly. He really wants his customers to be satisfied.