HJ “Sable” vs. “Deep Sable” — What’s the consensus?

[TimInKC]

Hello, all.

I’m looking for opinions from anyone who is familiar with, has handled, or owns Herbert Johnson poets in both their “Sable” and “Deep Sable” colors.

Obviously a lot of this type of thing is subjective, as many things involved in this hobby can be, but I was curious if there was much of a consensus among all of us “gearheads” regarding which of these HJ color options is considered more screen-accurate.

Thoughts?

[IJJTM]

I went to HJ's London shop in December and got to see felt swatches next to each other. I'm going to assume you are asking in regard to a Raiders model. For my money, I like the look of sable more, deep sable is supposedly what was provided for filming. I feel like sable is more representative of what we see on screen though. Go with whichever color you think looks better.

[Illinois_Jones]

My personal opinion is that Deep Sable is the color we see especially in LC and likely ToD -- the mint condition Poet models Michelle borrowed and based the Deep Sable on dated mostly to the mid 80s. IMO it's too dark for Raiders. That said, I think the regular HJ sable is also too light, but also more readily takes on a worn out look because of the muted tone. To my eye, the actual Raiders was somewhere in between, and as the story goes -- and I have zero reason not to believe it -- HJ changed felt sources between 1980 and 84.

So my personal thought on the matter is if you're just going for Raiders cosplay then the regular sable may be the better choice, but if you're planning on really using it as an adventure hat to get the DS and let it fade with use.

[jlee562]

AFAIK, there is no direct connection from the deep sable felt to the film hats. Deep Sable was introduced to match the color and density of a Poet obtained from Mr. Swales in 1984/85 that was on loan to HJ from a fan. IMHO the deep sable looks more like how the hat appears indoors on film, and sable looks more like how the hat appears in exterior shots.

Michelle talks about it here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFiBWKmRAKM

See also:
https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/blogs/jour ... n-indy-fan

I don't think there is really a wrong choice, as the shades are quite close. Mine is Sable and its great. Though if I were buying today, I'd probably get Deep Sable because I like the way the felt reacts in the HJ videos. But I definitely do not have buyer's remorse over the standard Sable. To my eye, sable has a bit warmer undertone.

[Charybdis]

Remember to also consider what you mean by "screen accurate." This term generally means that the hat you get will look just like what was seen onscreen. Therein lies the rub. In the color/prop/movie business, an item may look one way on screen but look totally different in real life under different lighting conditions. (remember the old Han Solo winter jacket condundrum - was it brown or blue?)

So when you say you want "screen accurate," we tend to think that you want a hat that looks just like it did onscreen...

[Castor Dioscuri]

Just to add on to the above, the alternative is 'prop-accurate,' or at least that's what I've always referred to it as.

As for the difference between the two HJ colors, sable is more of a coppery-gold to my eyes, whereas deep sable is more chocolate. Sable reminds me more of how the KotCS fedoras looked in dusty scenes, whereas deep sable makes me think of a more typical Indy look.

Personally, if you're anything like me, I think you should go with what color suits your skin tone better, if you can get your hands on samples. Deep Sable really washes out some skin tones for example.

[jlee562]

The caveat to this comparison is Prop Store's pic was professionally shot indoors, and my selfie was done outdoors with my mobile. But for whatever it is worth, Sable vs the auction pic:

[tubasthebest]

Figured I’d add a picture of the deep sable rabbit felt for reference as well.

[WConly]

Figured I’d add a picture of the deep sable rabbit felt for reference as well.

Lookin' good ! W>

[craigjohn]

S’pose it depends what scene you’re viewing. The hats were so weathered through the movie, and depending on the lighting, the color of the changes. It looks more like deep sable in portions of the idol cave, looked lighter when Indy was at the Idol display.

Raven’s Bar - the color cast of the lighting was so colored/warm and moody, it’s difficult to see. The photos I’ve seen with color corrected (white balance adjustment) images, the hat looks like chocolate brown/deep sable.

SOC - looks lighter - but is that due to the extensive weathering and harsh outdoor lighting?

Ark Crypt - looks chocolate brown…

…and back and forth we go.

I have to believe the costume department’s weathering has much has much to do with the lighter appearance in many scenes. Especially the SOC…

[baddates1]

I prefer the sable, because that's what I remember when someone says "Indy hat."

I read from a Darth Vader sculptor named CSMaclaren over at the 501st, that in order to make an accurate copy they had to remember the feeling and emotions they got when they first saw Vader on the big screen as kids. That was their platform to pile all the accurate details on top of to make the best Vader out there. Heck, Lucasfilm used their sculpt for the face (not the dome) for Rogue One's version. Took 'em far

At the end of the day, I've always felt that the hats that're too dark look way too new, while the lighter ones look faded and used. My Advintage is in the sable, and haven't regretted it since

[craigjohn]

Love your hat and Indy gear. Nice work.

Chris (Mac) and his Quasimodo V2 helmets are certainly very good. He definitely has the general look and feel of Vader. I think it’s cool LFL went to Mac and Bookface (Paul), and used the Quasi as their base for the Rogue One Vader. They do beautiful work.

I don’t understand why LFL didn’t go to EFX Collectibles, who has a mold made from a Vader cast pulled from the LFL Rick Baker Vader mold

The people who really study the Vader details and nuances, know those Quasi helmets are missing something that the casts derived from the UK mold (TM ESB, GS ROTJ, CFO ROTJ) and the Rick Baker mold (VP, DJ, SL ANH) have. But it’s when the those helmets are painted and finished in an accurate manner, that’s when they really come to life. This is especially evident with the ANH Vader, because there is so much brush work/texture, scrapes and nuances in the painting alone, on top of the surface texture. The 4K video showcases how beat up the ANH Vader helmet had become by the time they filmed the Tantive IV scene (Vaders grand entrance in the movie). …and to me, the Quasi doesn’t quite capture that feeling like a finished SL or DJ. It’s missing certain details in the cast, that when you see it, you can’t “unsee it”. Then you compound that with missing details in the painting/finishing. It’s close…but it’s not quite there. “It’s a little off” - If that makes sense.

Which brings me to the deep sable. And I can only speak of the HJ
Hats, as that’s what I’ve studying, and having discussions with the HJ team. The Indy hats were all weathered, possible exceptions are the face reveal of Indy in the jungle - the hat looks fairly pristine - and the promo pics from the jungle. I think the reveal and the promo pics used the same clean hat. The brown just looks different here altogether in the face reveal. That could be attributed to scene lighting, and the film used to film this specific scene.

But once Indy approaches the cave, the hat has taken on a deeper tone, topped with dust and character. Again, lighting and film are at play here, but the feel of the hat has changed. Even the color.

I have the belief that even with the deep sable, once it gets dusty, and allowed to get that dust rubbed into the hat, it will take on the “screen used” look. Because that’s generally how the hats were filmed. Dusty/weathered/worn. And to me, the hat won’t feel like the Indy hat until it’s well weathered and a bit beat up.

But understand, I might be approaching this a bit differently than others. I’m not looking at this piece as something I’m going to wear in public. I’m looking for a display piece. If I was buying to be a wearable in public, or to wear on my own adventures, I’d get a clean version, and choose whichever color best suited me. And depending where it would be worn, I might not want it dirtied nor weathered at all.

Oof! That was a mouthful.

[Illinois_Jones]

Well what you're seeing is mainly a product of lighting, color timing, telecine, and, today, digital intermediates, etc.

The Raiders hat was not "deep sable." I'd bet money on it. But it was also not the regular sable HJ offers -- it's too light and that's obvious, IMO. To me the closest is probably the now "old" sable AdVintage offers, but without an actual 1981 Cury felt HJ we'll never really know... unless Spielberg is willing to let his undergo mass spectrometry to determine the dye chemistry. We do, however, have more existing Poets contemporary to the ToD and LC era when they sourced different felt from a few years earlier and that's what the deep sable is based on. You have to weigh the options available and choose. But, much like life, Indy gear is all about compromises.

[craigjohn]

Well what you're seeing is mainly a product of lighting, color timing, telecine, and, today, digital intermediates, etc.

The Raiders hat was not "deep sable." I'd bet money on it. But it was also not the regular sable HJ offers -- it's too light and that's obvious, IMO. To me the closest is probably the now "old" sable AdVintage offers, but without an actual 1981 Cury felt HJ we'll never really know... unless Spielberg is willing to let his undergo mass spectrometry to determine the dye chemistry. We do, however, have more existing Poets contemporary to the ToD and LC era when they sourced different felt from a few years earlier and that's what the deep sable is based on. You have to weigh the options available and choose. But, much like life, Indy gear is all about compromises.

I would say, in this instance, it's very much deep sable. If you look along the front of the hat, along the top edge of the ribbon, where the dust didn't settle into the fur felt, it's very much a dark fur color.




I'd say Deep Sable is an extremely close match for this particular version of the Raiders hat at this point in the movie. If you want it lighter, get it dusty.

The hat becomes even more dusty and weathered — lighter in appearance as a result — during the SOC scene.