HJ Temple Of Doom fedora auction

[mf]

(I didn't see this posted yet. Apologies if it's a dupe.)

Herbert Johnson from ToD will be auctioned off end of June.

Bet it won't be cheap.

https://propstore.com/entertainment-mem ... ly-section" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michaelson]

Just saw that myself. They're figuring between $150k to $200k. Guess we'll see!

Regards! Michaelson

[IJJTM]

Dang, they have a bunch of good stuff they're selling this time. Now I'm even sadder at SDCC's cancelation this year since they probably planned to bring some of the stuff there.

[LRGS]

Interesting to see the inside of the hat in those pics. Herbert Johnson's size label of 7 1/4 (UK size) relates to a 59cm hat, not 58cm as some have assumed.

[Michaelson]

Yeah, and Steve was making them 7 3/8 by the time CS rolled around.
Regards! M

[Illinois_Jones]

That actually looks more like an 8 than a 9, but the bow is obscuring the bottom of the number and all you can see clearly is the top loop. Have to get a better screenshot, but it definitely looks like the number is tapering in the middle. Perhaps they were using the tags for the US market.

[IJJTM]

I remember Penman saying that 7 1/4 can mean different sizes at different hatteries, which is why he recommends telling your head size in inches or centimeters. Also, that looks like more of a 58 to me.

[Michaelson]

Totally agree. That's the ONLY way I've ever ordered hats from companies like, say, HatsDirect in the past, so they can pull hats and double check measurements rather than just grabbing one off a shelf.

Same goes for shoes! Get measured!

Regards! Michaelson

[Indiana Jeff]

Hat sizes are supposed to be the head circumference in inches divided by pi. Here is the chart posted at the bottom of this thread. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Below is a general conversion chart for figuring out hat sizes. Keep in mind that not all hatters are consistent in how they size their hats, so the chart below is for reference only. Be certain to discuss it with the hatter before choosing a size which works for you. It is ultimately the responsibility of the wearer to do the homework in such matters.

cm = inches US size

49 cm = 19.29 inches 6 1/8
50 cm = 19.68 inches 6 1/4
51 cm = 20.08 inches 6 3/8
52 cm = 20.47 inches 6 1/2
53 cm = 20.87 inches 6 5/8
54 cm = 21.26 inches 6 3/4
55 cm = 21.65 inches 6 7/8
56 cm = 22.05 inches 7
57 cm = 22.44 inches 7 1/8
58 cm = 22.83 inches 7 1/4
59 cm = 23.23 inches 7 3/8
60 cm = 23.62 inches 7 1/2
61 cm = 24.02 inches 7 5/8
62 cm = 24.41 inches 7 3/4

According this this chart, a 7 1/4 hat will be 58cm which is how I'm reading the tag. Though as has been stated, hat sizes are fairly arbitrary and to be fair, not an exact science even when doing the math. How many decimal places should be used when doing the math especially if converting from metric to imperial to hat size.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[LRGS]

In the UK, a 59 is a 7 1/4. In the US, a 59 is a 7 3/8. Something to do with head size vs block size, if I remember correctly. British hatters like HJ, Lock & Co, Bates etc always used the UK sizing on their labels - certainly for hats sold in the UK.

[Canyon]

According this this chart, a 7 1/4 hat will be 58cm which is how I'm reading the tag. Though as has been stated, hat sizes are fairly arbitrary and to be fair, not an exact science even when doing the math. How many decimal places should be used when doing the math especially if converting from metric to imperial to hat size.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

That's my size!

According to a well known hatmaker: "My God. I don't come across many women with a head as big as yours!"

[Illinois_Jones]

Well it's similar with shoes, where the US system starts counting at 1 and the UK system starts at 0, so the equivalent size is one standard deviation lower in the US.

All I know is that tag says 7 1/4 and it appears it also says 58, so if true then HJ put a US size tag in there. As we all know, the costume and props with these films was all over the place and ToD was such a mess of a production who knows the story of any particular hat. Perhaps the answer died with Anthony Powell.

[Indiana Croft]

that is neat.
Maybe no one will have any interest in Jeanies stunt bottle.
Now that would be sweet prop to Owen.
Barbara Eden, one of my first TV crushes.

Croft

[Indiana_Nate]

that is neat.
Maybe no one will have any interest in Jeanies stunt bottle.
Now that would be sweet prop to Owen.
Barbara Eden, one of my first TV crushes.

Croft

That’s funny, cause I had my eye on the toon gun from Roger Rabbit

[LRGS]

Well it's similar with shoes, where the US system starts counting at 1 and the UK system starts at 0, so the equivalent size is one standard deviation lower in the US.

All I know is that tag says 7 1/4 and it appears it also says 58, so if true then HJ put a US size tag in there. As we all know, the costume and props with these films was all over the place and ToD was such a mess of a production who knows the story of any particular hat. Perhaps the answer died with Anthony Powell.

Update: I e-mailed Propstore and got a reply from Brandon Alinger, the C.O.O. who currently has the hat with him in L.A. He was kind enough to take a closer look at the size tag and has confirmed back to me that is in indeed labelled as a 59.
So now we know that the size of the TOD hat is the same as that which Steve Delk made for HF for KOTCS. I bet the Raiders one was also a 59; Brandon mentioned to me that prior to my email, he hadn’t known about the difference between a UK 7 1/4 and a US 7 1/4. So if the Raiders fedora tag had only shown 7 1/4 (and not the cm size too) when bought in 1980, that might account for the Propstore auction catalogue stating it was a 58 a couple of years back.

[Illinois_Jones]

Cool. Well that settles that. Funky font on that tag, though.

As for the Raiders, yeah, who knows. Ford was technically still in his 30s and skinnier at the time so it's possible he was a size smaller. Also the different blocks used, etc. I can take anything from a 57 to a 60 depending on the hat.

[LRGS]

Me too. I can do 58 - 60. Usually 59 though

[IJJTM]

Hmm, I thought he used 58 throughout, but 59 for Raiders since he has Han Solo hair at the time of fitting...

[mark seven]

New Prop Store Auction preview video-some nice items!
TOD Fedora etc is at 41:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo_PvhNfL88" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Forrest For the Trees]

Well it's similar with shoes, where the US system starts counting at 1 and the UK system starts at 0, so the equivalent size is one standard deviation lower in the US.

All I know is that tag says 7 1/4 and it appears it also says 58, so if true then HJ put a US size tag in there. As we all know, the costume and props with these films was all over the place and ToD was such a mess of a production who knows the story of any particular hat. Perhaps the answer died with Anthony Powell.

Update: I e-mailed Propstore and got a reply from Brandon Alinger, the C.O.O. who currently has the hat with him in L.A. He was kind enough to take a closer look at the size tag and has confirmed back to me that is in indeed labelled as a 59.
So now we know that the size of the TOD hat is the same as that which Steve Delk made for HF for KOTCS. I bet the Raiders one was also a 59; Brandon mentioned to me that prior to my email, he hadn’t known about the difference between a UK 7 1/4 and a US 7 1/4. So if the Raiders fedora tag had only shown 7 1/4 (and not the cm size too) when bought in 1980, that might account for the Propstore auction catalogue stating it was a 58 a couple of years back.

I always figured the Raiders fedora was a bit small on Harrison Ford's head, which in addition to the turn, would distort the brim more and ensure that it wouldn't fall off. I have no evidence to support this, but it seemed logical to me.

[IJJTM]

Hmm, on the PDF catalog, it says the hat is 7 1/4 (58 European).

[LRGS]

Hmm, on the PDF catalog, it says the hat is 7 1/4 (58 European).

I can only assume the catalog was already written before he wrote back to me. Here’s what he wrote:

Hi Lindsay,

I have to tell you I’ve learned something new with your query and explanation of the US and UK conversions on hat sizes! Very interesting. I’ve taken a closer look at the size tag and it is indeed a 59.

I hope that helps. If you have other questions on the piece please let me know.

Best
Brandon


Brandon Alinger
Chief Operations Officer LA

[darthjones2]

In 1990 I went through as many Indy hats as I could find at LFL/ ILM and all of the hero hats said 7 1/4.

Just fyi.

I did not know Raiders was bigger (according to what I read on COW) but I did not see any such sized.

[captblitzdawg]

59? Just my size! No way I could afford that hat, though!

[mark seven]

Looks like at least one of the TOD hats were Beaver..

https://youtube.com/watch?v=eRFT7a7qeG4&t=105s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IJJTM]

I doubt it. Pretty sure it’s rabbit. I think he appeared on a podcast where he talked about the hat and he seems to only have a base level knowledge of it. He’s more of a Star Wars guy from my understanding.

[mark seven]

my understanding was that all the HJ indy hats were rabbit..i was going to email brandon and ask if he was sure it was beaver,then i thought,who am i to question an expert who has the real thing in his hand and has done way more research than me?i mean,brandon knew the raiders hat was rabbit,he must have had a reason to say this one was beaver-maybe it is on a tag or stamped on the sweatband?

[jlee562]

Considering HJ was using Borsalino as a supplier for TOD, it's likely not a 100% beaver felt simply because Borso hasn't really made a lot of 100% beaver hats...at least none they've gone out of their way to market as such.

A while back somebody posted a podcast from "The Stuff Dreams are Made Of," with Brandon from propstore. Nobody on the podcast really struck me as a hat person. I don't recall if it was Brandon himself, but I remember someone asking aloud if Stetson was an American company and I just had to roll my eyes.

While beaver felt has generally been regarded as superior for a while now, my perception (i.e. could be wrong!) is that the push on 100% beaver felts is relatively recent. Most of my vintage hats are blends, and if we think historically about what was offered, there were comparatively fewer all beaver felts, especially pre-war when mercury was still in use. With Stetson for example, only a handful of hats were made in the Stetson 100 quality, which was a pure beaver felt. If you were in the market for a vintage Stetson Open Road today, you're far more likely to see a Royal Deluxe or 3x quality than a 7x Clear Beaver or Stetson 100. This is also reflected in period catalogs/ads, where one can get a more holistic sense of what was being marketed.

All that said, can I offer any empirical proof one way or the other? No, I am offering only my best guess.

[jlee562]

Adam Savage made a video with Brandon:
https://youtu.be/duIiGF7inro" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IJJTM]

Cool video, yeah I wonder what Brandon would say in an email. I remember at Nadoolman-Landis’ exhibit she claimed that a TOD or LC hat was beaver.

[MaverickFerg]

Only went for $300,000?! A bargain!


Ok - so who here bought it?

https://propstoreauction.com/m/lot-deta ... lot/73121/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[IJJTM]

I wish.

[Chiliana Jones]

If the TOD and LC hats were beaver, wouldn't that explain why the brims on the hats aren't as droopy as the Raiders hat brim when soaked? The TOD and LC hat brims seem to react more like the CS fedora.



CJ

[Michaelson]

I’d laugh if they took it apart and found a Stetson or Dorfman label!



Regards! Michaelson

[IJJTM]

If the TOD and LC hats were beaver, wouldn't that explain why the brims on the hats aren't as droopy as the Raiders hat brim when soaked? The TOD and LC hat brims seem to react more like the CS fedora.



CJ

It’s possible, but this is the first time I’ve ever heard of TOD or LC using beaver, and I think it’s more likely that he’s mistaken as in a podcast he was on he didn’t seem as knowledgeable as people that frequent this forum. Also, I know some hatters such as Penman suspect that the Raiders had a very specific type of felt that was very floppy. We know that between Raiders and TOD, HJ changed how things ran, so I think that would explain the difference in rigidity.

[mr_alex]

Now that the ToD fedora has been auctioned off, do we have detailed measurements for it?

I was looking at the Indygear site, and I see the measurements for the Raider's hat. In the ToD section it mentions the hat having a lower crown, but doesn't go into detail. Do we already have specific measurements for that hat, or were we able to get them from the auction?

[IJJTM]

I think we already know the TOD measurements, and I don’t know if this hat would do us any good due to it’s extreme taper.