Did Indy wear a Stetson?

[Mark Brody]

It’s been a couple years since I’ve posted here, but when I was last active, it was commonly accepted that Indy generally wore HJs in the first three movies and Adventurebilt in KotCS, with a few exceptions. As I recall, he’s rumored to have worn a Stetson in at least one scene in ToD, and a DP in KotCS so that they could claim it was “the” hat worn in the movie (and possibly some promotional material). Is this still commonly accepted, and has anyone ever determined what scenes the Stetson might have been worn in?

[Illinois_Jones]

Not sure about the DP in CS, but yes he wore a Stetson for some shots on the plane in TOD, and I think maybe during the kid rescue/escape in the temple.

[Ridgerunner58]

I know that Stetson made hats for Temple of Doom as a merchandising tie-in. There are people on this forum that own the Stetson version and if I recall correctly there are stories of the dye used dissolving and running down peoples' faces when the hats got rained on. I am not certain, whether any of the hats in that movie were provided by Herbert Johnson.

I don't think I have ever heard that a DP was used in the fourth movie. My understanding is that Steve Delk and Marc provided all the hats (both brown and grey) for that film.

[drftfan]

There was a hat sold a few years back by Profiles in History from Temple of Doom that was a Herbert Johnson. Supposedly screen matched as well.
https://www.icollector.com/Harrison-For ... _i35088502" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Michaelson]

The store bought Stetsons used a powder dye that eventually liquified in a soaking rain, releasing it in a river of brown colored water to flow between your eyes, and yes, I was ‘one of those people’ who reported it.

The Stetson product placement was to support a planned product sale in the theater lobby during the release of Temple.

The Stetson fedoras that Lucas planned on selling in the lobby during the release of Temple was a COMPLETELY different felt, though same low crown style, that had an excellent felt and much darker color than offered later. From programs seen in the late 80’s, these were supposedly made in Europe and sold directly to LFL. I always suspected FESPA felt as Austria was the hat makers location. The actual name of the company was never mentioned in the program.

I was lucky enough to acquire one through a friend of a friend who worked at Paramount at the time, and he said they had a warehouse full of them after Lucas changed his mind about the lobby sales. Sales for TofD items were dismal at best, so much so several planned items were cancelled before they even got made. These high end Stetson’s were one of those casualties.

The remaining inventory was sold in lots to mail order companies and then mixed in with the standard Indy Stetson offering. If you ordered from companies like US Cavalry in the late 80’s, you may have very well received one of these Stetsons in your order.

I’m always amused when reading the debates over the years by folks either dissing the Stetson, when others state it was one of the best fedora s they’d ever owned, though incorrect in detail, not knowing they were probably talking about two completely different hats with the same name, but not knowing it.

Regards! Michaelson

[Mark Brody]

How do you distinguish the good Stetsons from the bad ones? I know some were wool, and some were rabbit. Some had liners, and some did not. All were pre-shaped (some with a teardrop, some with a center cent). Is there a way to identify the good Stetsons?

[Michaelson]

Firstly the feel. Mine compares exactly with a smooth tight weave beaver. Almost silky to the touch.

They were also a VERY dark brown, and the liner definitely higher quality. Different as night and day when placed side by side, but still with that silly ‘Indiana Jones’ stick pin in the bow.

Regards! M

[Mark Brody]

So, I’ve found a variety of these hats online, this...



...appears to be a well loved version of this...



And this...



...is clearly their cheap wool offering.

Am I correct is assuming that the top two are the same hat, and that these are the higher quality ones that don’t bleed in the rain, or are there more variations?

[Michaelson]

The standard was more of a chocolate brown that bled.

Regards. M

[backstagejack]

It’s been a couple years since I’ve posted here, but when I was last active, it was commonly accepted that Indy generally wore HJs in the first three movies and Adventurebilt in KotCS, with a few exceptions. As I recall, he’s rumored to have worn a Stetson in at least one scene in ToD, and a DP in KotCS so that they could claim it was “the” hat worn in the movie (and possibly some promotional material). Is this still commonly accepted, and has anyone ever determined what scenes the Stetson might have been worn in?

the original questions though.....

[captblitzdawg]

The wool Stetson with no liner was my first fedora. When I got into cosplay I actually sought out one of those hats just for the nostalgia factor it held for me. I still have it, but my Fed IV is my everyday hat, my Jimmy Pierce is my photoshoot and convention hat, and my Stetson is a display piece now.

[jlee562]

I don't recall seeing any definitive proof of where the Stetson is, though the cockpit scene does make the most sense. The hat does look slightly different there.

As far as TOD, HJ has confirmed that their supplier during that time was Borsalino.

https://herbertjohnson.co.uk/blogs/jour ... -hero-poet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So why did the Indiana Jones hat change for TOD and then again for Crusade?

Whilst we don’t have an exact timeline of issues that were influencing the buying decisions back in the 1980’s and 1990’s what we do know is that there were many large changes both internally and financially. The shop address changed several times while London rates went sky high and many London businesses struggled to keep going. A sense of survival kicked in which would have very much affected business decisions and suppliers. Richard Swales had been an almost constant throughout. Sadly he is no longer with us and thus unable to confirm further details. By the time of TOD we were using Borsalino to supply our range of men’s fedoras. This history of changes may explain the resulting differences in the models purchased for the subsequent films we supplied.

[RelicHunter]

Years ago, I inherited a Stetson Indy from my grandfather. No idea where or when he got it, but it certainly seems like one of the lobby Stetsons Michaelson described. The felt feels super fine (and stiff), almost like beaver, and has held up rather well despite what looks like regular wear.

But I don't think my grandfather was an Indiana Jones fan, because the pin is long gone.

[Michaelson]

That one looks like mine.

Regards! Michaelson

[marker2037]

I never knew about the existence of these "Lobby Stetsons". What cool little piece of film history.

[Mark Brody]

That one looks like mine.

Regards! Michaelson

Looks like yours that bled due down your forehead, or looks like yours, the good one you got from a friend?

[Nosirrah]

That one looks like mine.

Regards! Michaelson

Looks like yours that bled due down your forehead, or looks like yours, the good one you got from a friend?

My everyday fedora is a Stetson Temple in Tawny, about 4 years old now. I wasn't going for SA, and I liked the color, taper, brim width and crown height, all of which are a better look for my head shape, height, and coloring. I've worn it in drizzly weather, but not the kind of downpour that Michaelson experienced. No Giuliani-type dye meltdowns yet. I'm hoping that the Sovereign line (rabbit, presumably) is now better all around than the original quickie merch. Michaelson, was your wool or fur felt?

[jlee562]

Stetson no longer produces the Sovereign grade. The current Temple is offered in Royal Deluxe grade, which according to the Stetson Japan instagram account is 90% rabbit, 10% beaver (although this has never been confirmed by Stetson USA).

There was a run of good years where Matt Deckard was with Stetson around their 150th anniversary and everything seemed to be coming up roses. Yesterday, we just had a report of some dye bleed off of a sage Stratoliner, so looks like Stetson is back to their old tricks. In fairness to Stetson, finishing powders were used historically (they are mentioned in Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating, for example), but well dyed felts shouldn't need them.

[Michaelson]

That one looks like mine.

Regards! Michaelson

Looks like yours that bled due down your forehead, or looks like yours, the good one you got from a friend?

My everyday fedora is a Stetson Temple in Tawny, about 4 years old now. I wasn't going for SA, and I liked the color, taper, brim width and crown height, all of which are a better look for my head shape, height, and coloring. I've worn it in drizzly weather, but not the kind of downpour that Michaelson experienced. No Giuliani-type dye meltdowns yet. I'm hoping that the Sovereign line (rabbit, presumably) is now better all around than the original quickie merch. Michaelson, was your wool or fur felt?

Fur. I’ve never owned a wool felt hat.

Nothing wrong with wool, but I’ve been wearing fedoras and newsboy 6 panel caps since the 60’s, and those early hats were fur felt hand me downs from my Dad at the time from the 40’s and 50’s.

Anyway, I was walking my daughters home from grade school in a frog drowning rain when I felt a bit of water starting to run down between eyes. My girls thought I was bleeding until we saw the color was brown! The laughed at me the rest of the way home, and that story is STILL told at family gatherings 30 years later!

Regards! Michaelson

[Ridgerunner58]

Now that you mention Borsalino I remember seeing that somewhere.

Thanks for all the history. Helpful to know things.

[IJJTM]

I was watching Last Crusade, and I don’t know for sure, but the hat that blows back to Jones after surviving the tank doesn’t look like an HJ to me.

[tubasthebest]

Was it ever a rumor that there was another brand of hat in LC? I thought it was just TOD that was rumored to have a scene with a Stetson.

[IJJTM]

I know some people say he wore a Stetson in the LC teaser poster.

[Nosirrah]

I know some people say he wore a Stetson in the LC teaser poster.

Got a link to the poster in question?

[IJJTM]

[backstagejack]

Looks like the Venice Pier hat to me just judging from the brim. Pretty hard to tell consideirng.... how anyone could tell based on half a heavily edited poster....who are these people? Top men?

Also, not sure how anyone could tell about the hat in the post tank scene. Could easily be a stunt hat but still an HJ. Has a white liner from what I can tell as did the HJ of that era.

[Indiana Jeff]

Drew Struzan painted the 1 sheet for LC. It's not a photo so determining what hat HF is wearing is really an issue of artistic license.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[backstagejack]

Drew Stuzan painted the 1 sheet for LC. It's not a photo so determining what hat HF is wearing is really an issue of artistic license.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Found this which if it's legit seems to be VERY LC to me.

[Indiana Jeff]

Struzan very well may have had that picture for reference. In the end, it's still an artist painting so any brim swoop or crown bash that we use to identify one hat from another will be heavily influenced by the stroke of the paint brush.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[backstagejack]

Struzan very well may have had that picture for reference. In the end, it's still an artist painting so any brim swoop or crown bash that we use to identify one hat from another will be heavily influenced by the stroke of the paint brush.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Even though he's not wearing a tie, etc.... the face kinda reminds me of the LC promos where HF is hanging out in a tree.

But yes, anything in this is up to the artist interpretation so he could be wearing a dorfman pacific for anyones guess

[drftfan]

After listening to the podcast “the stuff dreams are made of” about the hats I am fully convinced there was not a Stetson used in TOD. Well worth the listen from people who own and have handled many screen used hats including in the archive.

[Michaelson]

True, and some of us spoke to the actual prop mdn who actually issued the hats from the prop department for the films back in the day, as well as the first people who ever got access to the archive, so there’s a lot of room for discussion and opinion.

Regards! Michaelson

[jlee562]

After listening to the podcast “the stuff dreams are made of” about the hats I am fully convinced there was not a Stetson used in TOD. Well worth the listen from people who own and have handled many screen used hats including in the archive.

It was interesting, they're obviously prop folks and not hat folks ("is Stetson an American company?"). While it's not documented proof per se, I'll take HJ's current website stating that the TOD hats were supplied by Borsalino as confirmation that their suppliers indeed changed.

I didn't really hear anything in the podcast that definitively dispels the Stetson placement, the hosts aren't even entirely clear on what the arrangement with Stetson was. What it confirms, if anything, is that if such a Stetson did exist, it's not in the archives or known among private collectors.

[IJJTM]

That perfectly encapsulates my thoughts on the podcast.

[Michaelson]

As with most product placement, the hats were returned to Stetson and not maintained by the Paramount prop department. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if they’re not in a Stetson managers private collection, or probably even trashed as used clothing items when returned to the company. Indy as a franchise was only 4 years old at the time. Who knew we’d still be debating and studying this decades later?!

Regards! Michaelson

[Illinois_Jones]

That's a point I have to keep making with several fandoms regarding props, wardrobes, etc. Especially with Raiders. 40 years ago the idea film pieces "belong in a museum" was a totally foreign concept. Even Star Wars it was all about merchandising, not the actual pieces. Nobody understood it would turn into a billion-dollar industry of authentic pieces and replicas. By 1989 it was better understood, though not fully, hence the LC stuff in the Smithsonian. Even 20 years ago Peter Jackson and Weta had an idea that LOTR stuff would have some value, but they didn't really understand the magnitude of just how much value. I could totally see Stetson 35+ years ago going "eh, we got our product placement" and tossing the actual hat aside. Their business was about selling new hats, and they're fairly blinkered about that.

[Michaelson]

Heck, Lucas canceled half of his merchandising plans before TodD was even released, so you have to wonder what he was thinking at the time! Maybe Indy was going to be a two film deal and done?

I totally agree with Illinois, and was pretty much told the same thing by the prop master at the time. They grabbed stuff off the shelf or shopped for it where ever they were shooting at the time, then either trashed the item or tossed it back on the shelf for future film.

Vendors did the same thing with product placement items. One and done and hoped the film was a success and possible future sales. If not, it was a write off.

To use use a quote from another franchise, ‘it’s just business....’

Regards ! M

[jlee562]

The mid 80's was also right in the middle of a bad time for Stetson. To be highly technical about it, the John B. Stetson company stopped making hats sometime in the 70's when the branding and assets were licensed to the Stevens hat co. All of Stetson's assets were acquired by Stevens in 1983, however the Stetson division subsequently filed for bankruptcy in 1986. In addition to the 'nobody thought it would be important' factor, this was a tumultuous time for the company, so maybe not so surprising that a perfect paper trail doesn't exist.

[Michaelson]

Excellent point! The mid 80’s was a HORRIBLE time for business in this country! It was when all the steel mills started closing down and the infamous ‘rust belt’ began in the Ohio River Valley. I was born and raised up there and lost my job after 13 years and only found employment in Florida after 14 months. Awful time for many!

I bet Stetson was throwing out every line they could find for some kind of income.

Regards! M

[Ridgerunner58]

25% interest on business loans and 12% -18% mortgages had a lot to do with it.

But if you talk to the 30 something geniuses that run everything they’ll tell you it could never happen.