Historical Info on Flightsuit's Horsehide Indy/Expedition?

[foxfyre841]

I have one that I don't fit in anymore and am trying to find out more about it as far as rarity goes (to better help set the price if I try to sell). I thought I would reach out and see if there was more information than what I have found so far. Does anyone have one and can post a picture or two for grain wear comparisons? (I'll post a few towards the end but there's not much wear at all it just hasn't aged at all. Plus picture size limits don't allow for close in detail.)

I've pulled up a number of posts from Indyfan archives. Seems everyone has about the same thought that I do: it's a little to light or red for a lot of tastes. The leather compares to the 'brown' that a-2's sometimes got spec'd out, no way is it seal brown which is much darker. However, it's not nearly as bright as the 'russet horsehide'. The leather is much stiffer than goat or sheep and was cut maybe a bit short in the body (see below measurements), one poster believed that was intentional and compensated for the stretched drape of worn leather (mine hasn't been worn much so I don't know if that idea ever panned out).
The leather coating was either too heavy or the grain too small as there was at least one poster that felt it compared to vinyl; while i can't agree with the comparison I will admit that it has far more even and tight a grain than leather I normally wear or work with (Hobbiest leather worker here: holsters, belts, sheaths) and the coating is quite thick. In the one place that it has worn off the color of the flesh appears to be the same as oak tanned leather: no drum dyeing or the color would permeate throughout the thickness and it's not chrome tanned or it would have a greyish-blue cast to it. Flightsuits sold this adventurer jacket in several leathers including a veg tanned goat, chrome AND veg tanned horse, and of course sheep; sheep and maybe goat being the only off the rack models they had.

Looks like my example is from an early model: a bit short in the body and made of veg tanned horse.
Pit to pit 28.5"
Shoulder width 22"
Arm Length 24"
Back length 24.5" - yeah that seems short to me for a 48R

Here are some of the threads I am pulling the data from (if you have any more links or your own examples, go ahead and post them here)
Announcement of the new product:
http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/49268.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Some customer feedback and reviews:
http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/53247.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/52526.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/51372.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.indyfan.com/vault/forum/messages/51127.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and now pictures:

[Michaelson]

Since I was one of the three fans directly involved in its development, I can add a bit to the discussion.

Originally the FS Expedition was to be offered as a stock item in chrome and vegetable tanned goatskin and New Zealand sourced lambskin only.

The early versions were all custom made, or 'made to measure'. Off the rack came later.

Three other hides they tried were deer skin, horse hide, and later water buffalo. They were short lived and after a few were made in made to measure and off the rack, they eliminated those hides and custom jobs, and other than the occasional vegetable tanned goat for special customers, they stuck to only chrome tanned goat and the NZ lambskin.

I remember seeing Lee's vegetable tanned Expo at one of the Queen Mary summits, and was amazed at how different it was when compared to my chrome version.

I also had one deer skin prototype in hand, but returned it after reviewing it, as it was one of the strangest leathers I had ever dealt with. As the leather got warm, it stretched like plastic! I'd sometimes find the end of my cuffs clear down past the end of my fingertips! Once I hug it up, then put i on later, it was back at my wrist! Just, weird, but still a VERY soft and comfortable jacket! Too bad the leather wouldn't hold spec!

I never heard where they sourced the horse hide or water buffalo hide, but all the goat and lamb was from New Zealand.

About all you’re going to find in opinions about the HH you’ve already discovered. Three of the 4 reviews you’ve listed are from the second developer of the jacket (Lee Kepler was the 3rd developer, by the way), and the fourth review was by MK, who was a past Indygear webmaster and one who got involved later in the program. The jacket they discussed there was a made to measure prototype.

Ironically, I still OWN the very prototype lambskin Expedition that MK had made from that New Zealand lambskin he was so interested in.

Not many were sold and HH came and went pretty quick while Flight Suits was looking for that ‘sweet spot ‘ in sales.

Though the Expedition was EXTREMELY popular with the fans, it just wasn't a great seller for FS (or Gibson and Barnes), as their bread and butter was, and still is, flight gear for working pilots.

With the retirement of Dave Marshall, that was another nail in the coffin. The 'made to measure' jacket returns due to changes in mind of customers finally killed the whole project for the new management that came in after Dave. They sold off what OTR jackets they had left in stock, and that was the end of it.

They've been approached a few times since, but each inquiry has met with an emphatic 'NO!'

I miss those days when we were constantly talking with Dave Marshall person to person almost daily, creating a jacket that was based on an actual stunt used jacket and built to last. Those were heady days. I still have Dave's phone number in my cell phone.

That was the same time Steve Delk and I were working with HatsDirect on the Federation, but I digress....

Probably WAY more 'historical' info than you wanted.....but you got an old guy rambling, so.....

All that said, you have a fairly rare example and one that anyone should love owning if the measurements work out.

One thing I NEVER understood was Dave Marshall's infatuation with a 24" sleeve! That's exactly the same sleeve length he put on 44 and 42 regular Expedtions in OTR offerings.

Anyway......

Regards! Michaelson

[foxfyre841]

That is a heck of a lot of history to add to this! I have to admit, the reason I have it is because I went on a spending spree to replace
USWings Signature Adventurer jacket I left on a D3lta flight: it fit more like a conventional jacket than collectors prefer but was great to wear and dressy enough to go anywhere. Hopefully, I will be able to off load this jacket and replace my missing jacket since USWings brought back their signature line. Thank you!

[Michaelson]

True, the USW's and Expo's are different patterns.

The Expo was based on measured specs taken directly from a screen used stunt jacket in a private collection, so it wears and fits off the shoulder exactly as seen in Raiders.

USW's jackets are definitely made to sit ON the shoulders, and are definitely less of a fight to keep on when the jacket is unzipped.

It's all in what you want and what you can get used to I guess. ;-)

That said, though, both are/were mil-spec'd, so they're both tougher than a pine knot for real world use.

Glad to help!

Regards! Michaelson

[CM]

Since I was one of the three fans directly involved in its development, I can add a bit to the discussion.

Originally the FS Expedition was to be offered as a stock item in chrome and vegetable tanned goatskin and New Zealand sourced lambskin only.

The early versions were all custom made, or 'made to measure'. Off the rack came later.

Three other hides they tried were deer skin, horse hide, and later water buffalo. They were short lived and after a few were made in made to measure and off the rack, they eliminated those hides and custom jobs, and other than the occasional vegetable tanned goat for special customers, they stuck to only chrome tanned goat and the NZ lambskin.

I remember seeing Lee's vegetable tanned Expo at one of the Queen Mary summits, and was amazed at how different it was when compared to my chrome version.

I also had one deer skin prototype in hand, but returned it after reviewing it, as it was one of the strangest leathers I had ever dealt with. As the leather got warm, it stretched like plastic! I'd sometimes find the end of my cuffs clear down past the end of my fingertips! Once I hug it up, then put i on later, it was back at my wrist! Just, weird, but still a VERY soft and comfortable jacket! Too bad the leather wouldn't hold spec!

I never heard where they sourced the horse hide or water buffalo hide, but all the goat and lamb was from New Zealand.

About all you’re going to find in opinions about the HH you’ve already discovered. Three of the 4 reviews you’ve listed are from the second developer of the jacket (Lee Kepler was the 3rd developer, by the way), and the fourth review was by MK, who was a past Indygear webmaster and one who got involved later in the program. The jacket they discussed there was a made to measure prototype.

Ironically, I still OWN the very prototype lambskin Expedition that MK had made from that New Zealand lambskin he was so interested in.

Not many were sold and HH came and went pretty quick while Flight Suits was looking for that ‘sweet spot ‘ in sales.

Though the Expedition was EXTREMELY popular with the fans, it just wasn't a great seller for FS (or Gibson and Barnes), as their bread and butter was, and still is, flight gear for working pilots.

With the retirement of Dave Marshall, that was another nail in the coffin. The 'made to measure' jacket returns due to changes in mind of customers finally killed the whole project for the new management that came in after Dave. They sold off what OTR jackets they had left in stock, and that was the end of it.

They've been approached a few times since, but each inquiry has met with an emphatic 'NO!'

I miss those days when we were constantly talking with Dave Marshall person to person almost daily, creating a jacket that was based on an actual stunt used jacket and built to last. Those were heady days. I still have Dave's phone number in my cell phone.

That was the same time Steve Delk and I were working with HatsDirect on the Federation, but I digress....

Probably WAY more 'historical' info than you wanted.....but you got an old guy rambling, so.....

All that said, you have a fairly rare example and one that anyone should love owning if the measurements work out.

One thing I NEVER understood was Dave Marshall's infatuation with a 24" sleeve! That's exactly the same sleeve length he put on 44 and 42 regular Expedtions in OTR offerings.

Anyway......

Regards! Michaelson

I love hearing those stories - I came in after this around 2001 when the Expo was well established. There's not a tougher jacket made than the Expo in goat. I have one still. I wish I had bought a couple of other G&B's before they stopped making them. I really like their version of the G2 - the Raider. No one made a better version of this pattern and I love that poly twill lining - it's indestructible.

[whipcracker]

One of my regrets is that I didn't get an Expedition while they were still going strong and Dave was around. Good and exciting days back then.
I remember messaging with Lee Kepler about his recommendations for getting one and he said to get the seal brown because that was the color.

[Michaelson]

He showed me his at the first Queen Mary summit. Amazing hide.

Regards! M