Custom ”Bapty” front sight for an m1917... feedback?

[lostinperiphery]

I’m soon planning to cut the barrel of my m1917, and with the help of my knifemaker/machinist friend, mill a new “Bapty” style front sight. I have 3d modeled the sight, and plan to use his CNC to mill the sight itself. If there is interest, I may try to talk him into doing a short run of them as well.

I’d like to try and make this as close to the original prop dimensions and design as possible, and was hoping to get some feedback on the design as it stands. I’ve modeled this using published original prop dimensions, however I had to make some estimations regarding the sight ramp serrations, as well as the tip of the sight itself. ? It would be simplest to machine them in 90 degree ‘steps’ as shown here, but if we know they are different, I will do my best to replicate the original design. For example, I could machine the ramp smooth, and hand cut “teeth-like” serrations using a checkering file (which would increase cost in a run of parts).

Construction:
-I plan to mill these from 4140 steel, which would need to be thoroughly degreased and re-blued (either with cold blue, or hot)
-the underside of the sight block will be milled with two 1/16” pin holes to accommodate locator pins between the sight and barrel during installation. These should help minimize the chance of the sight shifting during soldering, ensuring it remains centered and vertical. Alternatively, I’m considering attaching the sight using JB Weld in order to save from having to have the barrel re-blued…

Please let me know what you think of the design so far. I also have an interest thread in the Crescent Moon Emporium, chime in if you are interested!










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[bearbeast]

I don't have much feedback to give regarding screen accuracy, but I see you put a lot of work ans thought into this. I just wanted to say congrats and I cannot wait to see the finished piece!


Cheers,
Bear

[WetDigger]

Wow, you have really done your homework! It is looking fantastic. The apex of the sight blade is sculpted very well, I love how it does not come to a sharp angle/point.

Just out of sheer curiosity, and nothing related to your design work which I would say is flawless. Can your 3D modeling show what the sight picture would be as viewed after installation with the standard S&W rear service sight? Those concept images mounted on the barrel are outstanding and they got me thinking...

[lostinperiphery]

There’s not, no. The barrel I’ve shown is just a simple 3D mock-up of the front barrel geometry, to model the rest of the gun would be a much more complicated endeavor

What are you trying to determine, exactly?


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[WetDigger]

I was always curious as to how the conversion would affect the sight picture, but that is nothing a little patience won't solve in due time with my own Bapty conversion project. Keep up the good work!

[Indiana Bond]

Just came up on this thread. The following thread may help in your project:

http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57568" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The concept and mock-ups look great!!

[Mark Raats]

I was lucky enough to pick up on of your front sights and I couldn't be happier.

Unfortunately in Australia its not possible to walk into Walmart and pick up a revolver so acquiring a .445 wasn't possible. I was able though, to acquire a pre-victory .38 Temple of Doom style S&W which from the serial number indicates that it was built in 1934. The barrel had been cut short by a precious owner but the front sight was totally wrong - which is why I was keen to acquire this one.

Although the barrel on the .38 is slightly narrower than the .445 it only required the tiniest modification to the profile to ensure it fit perfectly.

This is an impeccably produced offering and I am very grateful for the opportunity I had in acquiring one.

Many thanks,
MARK

[Indiana Bond]

Mark,

Very nice K-frame .38 S&W!! Not sure why you couldn't have found a N-frame .455 or .45ACP (although they are harder to find) since you did find that very nice .38 S&W. It's not like you can find any vintage S&W revolvers laying around over here at Walmart either.


FYI there is a substantial difference in size between your .38 S&W K-frame and a .455 or .45ACP N-frame. The N-frames are quite a bit larger. Just make sure that if you ever want to get a holster for your Indy revolver that you don't just get a standard Indy style reproduction. It would be too big.

Also FYI the Temple of Doom .38 revolvers were as follows:
Colt Official Police (4" barrel) [Indy - Willie Scott - Lao Che's Henchman - Thuggee] .38 special.
Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 (5" barrel) “Stunt Double Gun” [Indy - Willie Scott] .38 S&W.
Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 (Snub) [Lao Che's Henchman] .38 special.
Smith & Wesson M&P 10-5 (3" barrel, smooth grips) [Wuhan] .38 special.

You can check out the list here: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=62245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm glad you were able to put together that very nice revolver and it is definitely a handgun Indy would have been proud to own!!!

[lostinperiphery]

Thats an awesome "mini indy" gun there! I love how it turned out with the ramped sight. Did you solder, or use adhesive?

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

[Indiana Bond]

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

You're absolutely right!! Just tried my 4" S&W K-frame 18-3 in my "Make it Jones" holster and it does fit very nicely!! Didn't realize it would fit so well. Might even use that setup to carry on the trail!! So for KramStarr "no worries mate!".

Also just found your other thread and didn't realize that you were so far along and actually got those Bapty sights manufactured. They look great!!! Too bad my Bapty is already done!

How about doing the Stembridge sight? That one is a real pain to duplicate and I still have my 1917 with a spare barrel waiting!

[Mark Raats]

Thats an awesome "mini indy" gun there! I love how it turned out with the ramped sight. Did you solder, or use adhesive?

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

Cheers fella's.

@lostinperiphery, I took the S&W back to the Smith I purchased it from and he sorted it out.
I finished the blueing after it was attached...

M

[Indiana Jeff]

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

I had a .38 K frame replica as my Indy gun for years and carried it in an Indy holster with no problem at all. Especially if the holster is new, you can mold it to the K frame just fine. In fact, for a very long time, the best close enough beyond solid resin pieces was a HFC HG-131 - S&W Model 10 / M10 Heavy Barrel .38 Gas Revolver.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Mark Raats]

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

I had a .38 K frame replica as my Indy gun for years and carried it in an Indy holster with no problem at all. Especially if the holster is new, you can mold it to the K frame just fine. In fact, for a very long time, the best close enough beyond solid resin pieces was a HFC HG-131 - S&W Model 10 / M10 Heavy Barrel .38 Gas Revolver.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Couldn't agree more, I have had no issues with the .38 fitting properly in the Indy holster.

I'm very aware of the size differences between the .38 and the .445 especially regarding the bulk.
The length of my .38 is a shade under 1cm shorter than the original so for me, it has worked exceptionally well - in all respects.



M

[Nosirrah]

Also FYI the Temple of Doom .38 revolvers were as follows:
Colt Official Police (4" barrel) [Indy - Willie Scott - Lao Che's Henchman - Thuggee] .38 special.
Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 (5" barrel) “Stunt Double Gun” [Indy - Willie Scott] .38 S&W.
Smith & Wesson Pre Model 10 (Snub) [Lao Che's Henchman] .38 special.
Smith & Wesson M&P 10-5 (3" barrel, smooth grips) [Wuhan] .38 special.

When the discussion turns to .38s, I get interested.
Roy Chapman Andrews, my boyhood hero and evidently one of SS's as well, carried a Colt .38 on his epic Mongolia expeditions in the 1920s. Used it, too.
Probably an Army model, 6" barrel.

[lostinperiphery]

FWIW, my 4" model 10 (.38 K frame) doesn't fit badly in a standard Indy holster, really.

I had a .38 K frame replica as my Indy gun for years and carried it in an Indy holster with no problem at all. Especially if the holster is new, you can mold it to the K frame just fine. In fact, for a very long time, the best close enough beyond solid resin pieces was a HFC HG-131 - S&W Model 10 / M10 Heavy Barrel .38 Gas Revolver.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Couldn't agree more, I have had no issues with the .38 fitting properly in the Indy holster.

I'm very aware of the size differences between the .38 and the .445 especially regarding the bulk.
The length of my .38 is a shade under 1cm shorter than the original so for me, it has worked exceptionally well - in all respects.



M

I just realized the photo is of your own .38, and not the prop store photo of the Bapty! That’s really cool how you re-posed yours to mimic the photo of the original.




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[WetDigger]

How did you guys go about finishing the foresight to match the rest of the weathered bluing on your Bapty revolvers? Is that just cold bluing?

[Indiana Bond]

How did you guys go about finishing the foresight to match the rest of the weathered bluing on your Bapty revolvers? Is that just cold bluing?

Yep! I used Brownells Oxpho-Blue. It's a bit more "blackish blue" compared to some other cold blue that tends to be more "grayish green". It works really great for touch up as the finish does end up matching the used and worn finish found on the older guns. Not so good if you are trying to match a highly polished new blue finish though.

Below is my Bapty at the Raven!

[Mark Raats]

I just realized the photo is of your own .38, and not the prop store photo of the Bapty! That’s really cool how you re-posed yours to mimic the photo of the original.


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Thank you. I figured it was a good way to show how well the two frames compare regarding their length..

How did you guys go about finishing the foresight to match the rest of the weathered bluing on your Bapty revolvers? Is that just cold bluing?

I blued mine using G96 Gun Blue. I like it for emulating weathered blueing because if applied carefully it doesn't give a new finish so it matches the original color and finish of the S&W perfectly.

MARK

[WetDigger]

I am having a #### of a time trying to locate a capable gunsmith to do the conversion on my S&W .455 Hand Ejector. So far I have stopped by three different establishments that have advertised as offering a full range of gunsmithing needs , each one gives me a different reason why they cant do it. I have the overwhelming impression that anyone who can put together boxed AR rifle parts can advertise as a "gunsmith", but as soon as the job involves actual part customization not done at someone else's factory they tend to balk.

The first guy told me it would take a milling machine and the retooling to set up for the operation alone would cost over $600

I am almost to the point where I'll just grab a hacksaw and do it myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b43odFm0mrI

[WetDigger]

It took me an entire day of playing telephone and driving around, but I finally found a capable smith to take on my project. He has several customers who have brought various firearms for him to convert into StarWars blasters of all types, so this project was not entirely alien to him. He's even giving a tuneup to the action and adjusting the cylinder gap so it functions smoothly. It sounds like I have found the right guy!

[lostinperiphery]

Hopefully I didn’t have to outbid any of you guys to snag this one! I’ve been like Goldilocks trying to find the right revolver. My first was too nice, another too poor, one shot too well... finally this one should be the ticket! A .455 converted to 45acp

I too had difficulty finding a smith to take on the project too. Ultimately, my knifemaker friend and I are just going to DIY the chop, mill the locator pin holes, and JB weld it in place.

@wetdigger- be sure to keep us posted and share his info if you’re happy with his work!








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[WetDigger]

Very nice! I'll definitely post a photo and the gunsmith's info when the project is completed.

I too ended up with a couple British S&W 2nd model hand ejectors when I started looking for just the right piece for this project. The difficulty in finding that "Goldilocks" piece for me was finding one as precisely close to the screen used original as possible, yet it still has to be buggered as far as any collector would be concerned. I didn't want to chop something that should be in a museum. Both revolvers I acquired fit the bill, but naturally I preferred one over the other. I do not plan on hanging on to the extra revolver once my project is finished, so I might pass it on to another Indy fan via the Cairo Bazaar once Im assured I dont need it for parts.

[elro2k]

Very nice! Where did you find that one? Gunbroker? I found a 2nd model hand ejector at my local gun show a few days ago but unfortunately, I wasn't able to acquire it. It was a beautiful piece though.

[lostinperiphery]

The difficulty in finding that "Goldilocks" piece for me was finding one as precisely close to the screen used original as possible, yet it still has to be buggered as far as any collector would be concerned.

Yes, exactly. Me too. That’s why I’m rather excited about this HE II, the cylinder has been shaved to fit 45acp, and the barrel overstamped to indicate the new caliber. Ruins it for a collector, but perfect for me, as 45acp is much more appealing to me Its been a fun, but challenging hunt. What is “buggered” on yours?

I’ll probably cut my sloppy Brazilian first just to practice, and then sell it. It won’t be screen accurate, nor will it be a good shooter without some work, but the barrel modification might appeal to an Indy fan more than it would to anyone else in its current state.

Very nice! Where did you find that one? Gunbroker?.

Yes, gunbroker. They come up fairly often there, but the aforementioned requirement of being previously buggered made it a bit more challenging.


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[Michaelson]

Roy Chapman Andrews, my boyhood hero and evidently one of SS's as well, carried a Colt .38 on his epic Mongolia expeditions in the 1920s. Used it, too.
Probably an Army model, 6" barrel.

Great photo of Chapman, but puzzling they printed the photo in reverse.

I once had a Smith .38 Victory model that I loved, but unfortunately shaved lead as one chamber was bored incorrectly. Needless to say, I didn't fire it much, and it was traded off after about a year of ownership.

Regard! Michaelson

[WetDigger]

The black blotches in the corners of that photograph of Roy Chapman Andrews indicate it was probably a wet-plate or tintype photograph. The lens-box setup for these types of cameras created a reversed image. This is really apparent when you look at pictures from the American Civil War, and you notice that lockplates are on the wrong side of their muskets, or the US/CS on their belt buckles are reversed.

As for my revolvers, I ended up with two candidates:

Revolver A: Came with two cylinders, one milled for .45 acp, the other for .45 Long Colt. The military sights were milled off to install aftermarket target sights. This was going to be my first choice until I realized the rear military sight on the top of the frame had been milled out to accept the adjustable rear sight, which means I couldn't just take that off and fill/solder the mounting screw hole like I originally planned. If this one was to be converted to a Bapty it would have to keep the rear sight. Not necessarily a bad thing, it might even correct for the change in front sight and make it more ballistically accurate. I decided though that I was going to look for another candidate to be as screen accurate as possible.

Revolver B: Near pristine un-issued condition, still in the original .455 except somebody left it in a holster in a humid environment for too long and the front two inches of the barrel was so pitted with rust it looked like railroad iron. Everything behind the 4 inch cut point on the barrel is pristine though.

As much attention to detail has been put into the making of the front sights, I decided to put equal attention to detail in the revolver itself and use Revolver B for the best possible results.

[Michaelson]

The black blotches in the corners of that photograph of Roy Chapman Andrews indicate it was probably a wet-plate or tintype photograph. The lens-box setup for these types of cameras created a reversed image. This is really apparent when you look at pictures from the American Civil War, and you notice that lockplates are on the wrong side of their muskets, or the US/CS on their belt buckles are reversed.

I know, I've been a professional photographer/videographer for the past 44 years, but thanks for the explaination, WetDigger.

For example it was years before they realized that Billy the Kid WASN'T left handed, based on his famous photo of him holding his rifle at his side. Someone finally noticed the loading gate on the side of his Winchester was on the wrong side....and suddenly everything came 'into focus', if you'll pardon the phrase.

The point I was making was if you look at the OTHER images from this trip, they're printed correctly. This one was not, so why take a wet AND dry process camera on the same trip is puzzling.

Anyway....I'm rambling....back to the subject at hand.

Regards! Michaelson

[WetDigger]

I know, I've been a professional photographer/videographer for the past 44 years, but thanks for the explaination, WetDigger.

For example it was years before they realized that Billy the Kid WASN'T left handed, based on his famous photo of him holding his rifle at his side. Someone finally noticed the loading gate on the side of his Winchester was on the wrong side....and suddenly everything came 'into focus', if you'll pardon the phrase.

The point I was making was if you look at the OTHER images from this trip, they're printed correctly. This one was not, so why take a wet AND dry process camera on the same trip is puzzling.

Anyway....I'm rambling....back to the subject at hand.

Regards! Michaelson

Ahh gotcha . As for multiple camera systems, anyone who has been in the field with expedition equipment knows the old adage "Two is one, one is none". Even our backups sometimes have a backup.

...maybe this is argument enough to start looking out for a Browning Hi-Power.

[Michaelson]

ALWAYS good justification!!!

[lostinperiphery]

Phew! I finally took the plunge and cut the Hand Ejector 2 down to size! This was was done by bandsawing the barrel a fraction of an inch long, and using a belt grinder to take it down to size and radius the outer edge. A round-head bolt, chucked in a hand drill, along with some lapping compound, was used to then chamfer/crown the bore edge. We did use a mill to cut the locator pin holes, but this is probably an optional step. JB weld was then used to affix the sight, after a thorough degreasing.

For blueing the sight, I first wetsanded all the flats to 600 grit. After degreasing, i submerged the entire sight in Birchwood Casey for a few minutes to blacken. I rubbed the excess off with some paper towels, and then ran it through a ceramic vibratory tumbler for 5 minutes. Finally, i hit the edges with some light sandpaper for some additional distressing. This process left the sight looking a nicely worn dark grey, which blended well with my worn and pitted revolver.

Overall, I couldn’t be happier with the results! The gun is mechanically sound, but has just the right amount of finish wear to be similar to the movie. And it had been previously modified to fire 45acp, which both detracted from its collectible relevance and makes it more feasible to shoot. Just what I’d wanted. Can’t wait to get to the range and see how much the zero moved!

Thank you guys for helping this all come together!









Before doing the HE2, I also cut and installed a sight on a sloppy Brazilian, which will likely be going on gunbroker. I wanted to be sure the modifications went as smoothly as I hoped, before hacking the HE2! (hand ejector 2 on left, Brazilian on right). It rather looks the part too!






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[WetDigger]

Nice job. Let us know how it does at the range!

[Wotalark]

Looks fantastic. Congrats!

[Indiana Croft]

Lookin good.

Mine is at the gunsmith as we speak.
First project was to rank timing: Price given plus possible parts $160.00 ($50.00 per hour)

Next up was we talked about putting on the new site. But he noticed that when the first barrel was cut, it was on a slight angle. How he saw this was “what”. But he is good at what he does.
So the plan of attacked is this.

Remove old site.
Put on lathe and fix the bad cut.
Take apart, band sand blast using an alumin (something) he’s even going to hit the the new site and remove the ever so slight machining marks.
Put on the new site.
Re blue using the hot blue method.
With a plus $50.00 + for just in case, all told $650.00 plus $50.00 for just in case, total $700.00 and this isn’t including the 160 I gave him for the timing.
And tonight he just said he was going to send it to an expert in bluing and it would a beautiful when all done.

But is the $$ out of line for this kind of project. This is just mind blowing away.
The money’s there for it, just don’t if I should just have him fix the timing and regroup on the project.

Any thoughts would be great.
Croft

[WetDigger]

That sounds about right for the work involved. My gunsmith charged me $100 for cutting and crowning the barrel, pinning and soldering the sight, and then doing touch-up with cold bluing. Going the hot bluing route is always going to be more expensive, but it sounds like your smith is making sure it gets the jewelers touch. I bet it is going to be beautiful!

[Mark Raats]

Lookin good.

Mine is at the gunsmith as we speak.
First project was to rank timing: Price given plus possible parts $160.00 ($50.00 per hour)

Next up was we talked about putting on the new site. But he noticed that when the first barrel was cut, it was on a slight angle. How he saw this was “what”. But he is good at what he does.
So the plan of attacked is this.

Remove old site.
Put on lathe and fix the bad cut.
Take apart, band sand blast using an alumin (something) he’s even going to hit the the new site and remove the ever so slight machining marks.
Put on the new site.
Re blue using the hot blue method.
With a plus $50.00 + for just in case, all told $650.00 plus $50.00 for just in case, total $700.00 and this isn’t including the 160 I gave him for the timing.
And tonight he just said he was going to send it to an expert in bluing and it would a beautiful when all done.

But is the $$ out of line for this kind of project. This is just mind blowing away.
The money’s there for it, just don’t if I should just have him fix the timing and regroup on the project.

Any thoughts would be great.
Croft

Croft, IMO it depends on if you are looking for a rugged piece or if you intend to live-fire yours as a primary weapon.

Personally, I believe a true Indy gun should be a rough-and-ready piece (given his personality) and I prefer flaws in a gun of this kind. The only way I would spend big is if I wanted to ensure a perfectly calibrated and top condition revolver for shooting live-fire. It also wouldn't be for me an Indy gun, it would be a primary weapon.

If it's intended to be an Indy gun that live-fires now and then (and if any current issues do not effect the safety or accuracy of the weapon), I would be inclined to leave it as rugged as possible.

Best,
MARK

[WetDigger]

I just got back from picking up my .455 HE from the gunsmith. I'm impressed how it turned out! Special thanks to you lostinperiphery for helping us all finally complete our Bapty conversions!



If anyone is looking for a good gunsmith to do a similar project, contact Superior Gunsmithing & Restoration of Jacksonville Florida: http://www.superior-gunsmithing.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Indiana Croft]

KramStaar: it will used for live fire, not a carry/concealed. The timing issue has to be fixed properly as I don't want a round getting jammed in the barrel. And the consequence that can arise from blow back.
I'm thinking of sending him pictures from above so he can see I'm looking for nice, just not over the top nice.
Hot bluing vs. cold bluing is a valid question, from what I see WetDigger's that looks to be cold, is this correct.

I still have the original 6" barrel which I'm contemplating and have him cut this barrel and crown it and new site. This should save some.

Croft

[WetDigger]

Hot bluing vs. cold bluing is a valid question, from what I see WetDigger's that looks to be cold, is this correct.

You are correct, my front sight and the raw steel of the new cut muzzle were retouched using cold bluing. The finish came out looking just like the older weathered bluing on the rest of the gun.

[WetDigger]

I got bored this morning and took a more artistic picture for you all.



Or at least as artful as a crummy cellphone camera can get.

[lostinperiphery]

Love it! I’m looking forward to taking some “group photos” but I’m waiting for a ‘roo whip coming in a few weeks

That map is cool! Where did it come from?



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[WetDigger]

Thanks! I could have waited for my whip to arrive from Paul Nolan, but that might take another couple months

I made the map myself. It is printed it out from .Pdf files I think I found somewhere here in COW, then I soaked the paper in balsamic vinegar to "cure", then baked it at my oven's lowest temperature setting until it acquired a nice brown leathery look.

[Indiana Croft]

Well after a long 5 months, my gunsmith was able to complete my new site installation.
5 months seems excessive you say, well we can blame the machinist on this one.
My original barrel was to short from the first gunsmith who put it on when I bought the gun 10 years ago, but he was able to save the original.

But in the process of installing the new site, it was apparent that the barrel would look kinda yuk, the way he put the site on.

So alas I had to bite the bullet and have them use the original barrel (which was the original plan) and although it took for ever, it looks awesome and it's now at the correct length of 4". Old barrel was 3-1/2"
And while I waited, I also found the correct SA grips with the gold medallion.

And before any asks, no one was in front of the camera on the third shot. And I had ear protection, just can't see the cotton ball I stuffed in my ear.
Amazing what you can do with a I-Pad and a camera stand.

And a big thank you to lostinperiphery for creating this, it truly make this real life revolver/prop from Raiders come to life. Went right out and fired her when I got home, still more practice




Just messing around with Indy look, steam punkish.







Croft

[cm289]

Awesome! Looks great!


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[lostinperiphery]

Fantastic! That turned out great, and I love the photos!


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[Wotalark]

Love the photos, nice style! Nice job and nice to see it fired.

[Indiana Croft]

Thanks everyone, I was itchin to get it back, thought it would be gone just during winter, but as warm weather started to creep in I was anxious to go and plink a few rounds.

And thanks for the kind words on the pictures, its fun to do.

Croft

[rangertexan]

Are there any sights left? Thank you.


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[Indiana Croft]

Have you tried PM lostinperiphery. He is the creator of the site.

Croft

[rangertexan]

Just did. Thank you. He’s been inactive for awhile as to posting anyways.


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[lostinperiphery]

Sadly the one of what I had left went to someone a few weeks ago. I’m not opposed to another run, but the machine shop required a minimum of 25, and it may be hard finding that many more people who are willing/interested in hacking up their WWI firearms.