Pre-Aging Felt

[Jeremiah]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

[BendingOak]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

No they do not.

[fedoralover]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

Define what process you are calling "pre-age". I have an old borsalino ad that says they "pre-aged" their felt for 4 years before they made the body into a hat. Are any hatters doing that today? I honestly don't know.

fedoralover

[Indiana Jeff]

Steve developed a technique to 'pre-age' the felt so it 'dies' sooner and will greatly reduce the possibility of shrinking and taper over the life of the hat. He taught his technique to Marc and John so they are the only three hatters that use his process.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[fedoralover]

Steve developed a technique to 'pre-age' the felt so it 'dies' sooner and will greatly reduce the possibility of shrinking and taper over the life of the hat. He taught his technique to Marc and John so they are the only three hatters that use his process.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Well, that doesn't mean others haven't developed their own "technique" to reduce the "possibility" of shrinking and taper. Not to take away from those that are doing things to try and reduce the shrinking of their hat bodies, but the fact is most hatters have their own set of techniques they don't share with others. So to say what processes other hatters are or are not doing cannot be said with any accuracy unless the hatters themselves say they do or do not do certain processes. Which even if they did, they probably wouldn't say how they did it. But interestingly enough the Borsalino ad I have does say how they did it.

fedoralover

[BendingOak]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

READ THE QUESTION! No one has our technique.

If others have developed their own way, they would be advertising it.

[Glenville86]

####.

[Indiana Jeff]

Deep breath everyone.


Yes, Steve developed a technique that is only used by Steve, Marc and John.

Yes, it is possible and likely other hatters have their own techniques for pre-aging felt to reduce shrinking and tapering. How any given hatter chooses to advertise his/her wears is up to that hatter.



Regards,


Indiana Jeff

[Jeremiah]

Thanks John.

[BendingOak]

Thanks John.

Your welcome.

[Indiego Jones]

Deep breath everyone.


Yes, Steve developed a technique that is only used by Steve, Marc and John.

Yes, it is possible and likely other hatters have their own techniques for pre-aging felt to reduce shrinking and tapering. How any given hatter chooses to advertise his/her wears is up to that hatter.



Regards,


Indiana Jeff

Well....I'm taking a deep breath.....and DIVE (into discussion) !

OK, I understand the question Jeremiah did. Only I didn't thought was such a loaded question.

Hatmaking is an already invented profession (many - many years ago). And also the techniques.
So, maybe if we know what is all about this "pre-aging technique", that Steve, Marc and John uses, we can really say if anyone else is using the same one, or not.

But we are never going to know that technique, right John? mmm...

No need to go into someone else hatmaker thread and throw that kind of absolutist reply.-

[Jeremiah]

My question, I can assure you, was not loaded. Was just that. A question. When a customer asks a question it may be to get the best hat for the money.

[lantzn]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

READ THE QUESTION! No one has our technique.

If others have developed their own way, they would be advertising it.

Now John don't be a mad hatter.






Sorry I couldn't help myself.

[BendingOak]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

READ THE QUESTION! No one has our technique.

If others have developed their own way, they would be advertising it.

Now John don't be a mad hatter.






Sorry I couldn't help myself.

Question was asked about AB/Penman technique. Someone implied something with their response. Why should I let it sit. I'm tired of this. I'm done and I'm gone.

[Indiana Jeff]

MOD EDIT: This line of discussion was split out of the Northwest thread to keep things neat and tidy.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[fedoralover]

Anyone who has watched video's on how felt bodies are made to begin with can see it's no mystical process to do. Felt bodies are basically made from wool or fur of some type, moisture, heat, and pressure. Depending on the company and the quality of the hat, they will repeat the process a few times or many times. Obviously the more times it is put through moisture, heat and pressure the tighter the felt body will be. Akubra does this with their Heritage felt. It isn't rocket science.

So if someone were to soak a fur felt body in hot water, add some steam and put it on a hat block and let it dry it would probably tighten the felt up a little more and help to prevent future shrinking and tapering. As to how much it would tighten up would depend on a few variables, as noted earlier, the quality of the original felting process and probably the type of felt the body was made of to begin with.

I know some hatters, I won't mention who, just as a matter of standard practice, re-soak their bodies in hot water and put them on a block and let them dry for a little extra insurance. To them it's nothing special, just standard practice. I'm sure those that do it, have their own particular technique in doing it, how long they let it soak, the temp of the water, maybe they use steam maybe they don't etc. So sure, everyone can say they have their own way of doing it, but the basic process is still the same.

This was discovered by those who wore their hats in the elements and got them extremely soaked and noticed they had shrunk up and tapered a bit and then had them reblocked. They then noticed that the next time they got them soaked in the elements the shrinkage was either much less or none at all. Hence the idea to pre soak and pre block the body before it's made into a hat. But as I mentioned in another post, this is really nothing new as Borsalino used to do a similar process to their bodies that took 4 years. Then they made the bodies into a hat. Too bad they don't do that today.

fedoralover

[Indiana Jeff]

I found this post from Steve Delk and in general his process is in line with what you described. http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... et#p618666" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is, however, still an elusive 'secret step' that he developed. (Bolding/underlining is mine.)

Yeah, I don't like making hats when it rains like all day. I KNOW from experience what will happen to those hats.

The thing is, when making a hat, the felt has to be 100 per cent dry, in the core, before you can pull it off the block. Then, you have to be able to put the hat outside, once you make it, for the naptha based water repellant to dry. Can't dry those inside. Might get an explosion, or succumb to the fumes. And it takes around 5 hours for a hat to dry once I treat them.

One key to making a hat that will last without tapering too fast, is allowing the hat to dry at a natural rate, not forced. This slow natural drying shrinks the felt up, on the block in the RIGHT manner. That is the very first step in hatmaking. And, it is important. After it does this, you can shock the felt with dampening it with the hatters sponge, and ironing it with high heat, many times. Forget about the fast factory ironing machines that iron the hat once, or twice at most. I literally dampen, and iron my hats around 12 to 15 times, allowing it to cool between iron jobs. This take time, but IS the only way to do it. These multiple ironings, also shrink the hat up in height, so I block all my hats at 6 inches, then iron them until they finally shrink to 5 1/2. Makes a much more stable hat. This is one of the so called secrets I learned from an old hatter.

After you do your first pounce, this will loosen the felt up, so, you then have to hit it with the hatters sponge, and let it dry naturally to tighten the felt back up, on the block. Once dry, its time to move to a finer grit and do it all over again. My hats spend ALOT of time on the blocks. And I know, that the longer they spend on the block, the better the final hat will be, in quality. So, I take no short cuts, though it is tempting to do so. But, I can't do it. Won't do it.

There are other things I do while the hat is on the block, but that's a secret, I can't divulge. But, it is very important. So, the assembly time is for me, about 7 hours per hat, but before that happens, I have spent alot of time working the felt while the hat is still on the block. That is why, one day each week, I cover up 15 blocks with felt, as that is my weekly output. With me taking one day off, which I used to not do. But, the doc said I need to do so everyone once in a while.

Fedora

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

Yes and that bold underlining you are talking about. Every hatter I talked with, I can tell they don't know it. Just by reading fedoralovers post. It isn't the norm on how hat makers think.

Most hat makers only stream and spray their hats when they block them. Even that first step Steve is talking about, most won't do as it takes a long time to do. You can't do all these steps and bang a hat out in a few day or a week. It's just not possible.

[fedoralover]

"There is, however, still an elusive 'secret step' that he developed."

Of course, there always has to be a "Secret". But secret as it may be, felt is still felt. And felt tightens up from the same things that made it felt to begin with. HEAT, MOISTURE, PRESSURE. You can repeat the process as many times as you want or add something else to make it a "secret," but the physical process that makes felt is still the same. And any added step won't change that. Watch the video's on felt making from both Winchester, Akubra or Fepsa. They have been making felt longer than anyone. The process they use always involves the same thing. One might do it a little better than someone else, one may repeat the process a few more times, or do an extra step or 2 in the finishing process like fepsa does, but tightening up of the felt fibers is still the result of heat, pressure and moisture.
I've been collecting and buying new and vintage fedora's for over 16 years and I worked out in the Oregon rain wearing my fedora's on a daily basis for all those years, getting them thoroughly drenched all the way through. I have personal seen the amount of shrinkage from the weather on my fedora's and then had them reblocked and a little stiffner added. They never shrunk up again. And these experiences were on New fur felt fedora's, not on already aged vintage ones. That's all it took. Anything done beyond that won't change a thing. Felt can only shrink up so much, if that wasn't true we would all end up with little beanies on top of our heads.

If someone want's to do more than that, that's fine, but a side to side comparison of two hat's made from the same company and same material, one with the "secret" preaging technique and one just soaked in hot water and reblocked, and then subjected to the rain and then both let to dry naturally with out being close to a heat source would give you the same result.

As one person already posted in another thread, he's had his beaver fedora wet from the rain and it didn't shrink at all and it didn't have any secret technique done to it. Here's the quote

"It's held up well the few times I've gotten it wet, although I don't know what techniques Mike uses....Mine hasn't shrunk at all (beaver felt)..."


fedoralover

[BendingOak]

This is coming from your experience in making felt? making hats? good, I hope everyone keeps thinking that way. inside the narrow box.

[fedoralover]

John if my own mother, whom I love dearly, made claims like you do, I would still have to respectfully say the same thing. Show me the proof. You may be sincere in your belief that this "secret" makes your felt bodies shrink less than any others that have been through a hot bath and a reblock, but sincerity alone doesn't make something true. When you can provide creditable evidence that what you say is true, I will recant my statements and acknowledge your "secret" is indeed better. But so far you haven't provided any proof.

Until then I stand by my experience in having owned over 80 fedora's, some new, some custom and a lot of vintage. Living in a very wet climate and working outside with the new, custom and vintage hats and seeing with my own eyes the evidence of how they have responded to being drenched and reblocked gives me more insight than the average hat owner.

regards fedoralover

[alex1152]

How the #### can you argue with someone who does this for a living? It only shows your ignorance, it doesn't matter how many hats have you own, what are you trying to compensate?
John is a man of his word, who I'm sure knows quite a lot about hat making. You are just a fan boy.

[Dalexs]

Folks, let's keep the tempers down please...
Insults by ANYONE will NOT be tolerated.

As much as fedoralover has a right
To question the topic of this discussion,
The secrets of the eternal order of hatmakers have as much right to remain just that.

We're here to discuss. Let's keep it that way please.

Dalexs

[fedoralover]

Folks, let's keep the tempers down please...
Insults by ANYONE will NOT be tolerated.

As much as fedoralover has a right
To question the topic of this discussion,
The secrets of the eternal order of hatmakers have as much right to remain just that.

We're here to discuss. Let's keep it that way please.

Dalexs

Thank you Dalexs, to make clear I'm not questioning the sincerity of John or Steve, nor do I care to "know" what the secret is. I'm questioning the result of this "secret" because it goes against the physics of felt and the results I have personally observed. Like I said, when I have seen proof, I'll give John a hearty endorsement, until then I remain in doubt. If others want to just accept things because someone told you so with out wanting verification of said claims, then all I can say is, good luck.

I might add that applying a water repellent of some sort into the felt to keep water from being absorbed into the felt is another issue and I wouldn't consider that a pre aging technique.

fedoralover

[adVintage]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques.

[Jeremiah]

Thanks. I can understand trade secrets too. It's what makes these things better than factory hats imo.

[Indiana Jeff]

But as Steve Delk often reminded us, there's nothing new under the sun in hat making. This is a post from him made in 2010. Bold and Underline are mine.

When I get time, I am gonna reblock it again, and this time leave it on the block for a week, on my own personal block. When I set the original shape into this hat, it took it so well, it does not want to forget what it started out as. But, gotta be some way to make it change its mind! Just got to discover how. This seems to happen only after Marc and I started using that old technique he found out about from that old hatter. The aging process not only helps to delay taper, but it makes the felt remember the original blockshape really well, which is a good thing, until you go and try to reblock it into something else. Fedora

I think many of these 'trade secrets' are rediscovering what was done in the past when hand making fedoras was as commonplace as producing ballcaps today.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Jeremiah]

This is true for sure. Thanks.

[Dalexs]

If you want an interesting read, check out
Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating by Henry Ermatinger.

It's now available in the Library of Congress.

https://archive.org/details/scientifichatfin00erma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has some cool info in it.

Dalexs

[fedoralover]

"Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques. AdVintage

Thank you Thomas, that is almost exactly what I said from the beginning of this thread. And by the way, judging by the pics in your thread, you do excellent work. The felt, handiwork and block are all top notch.

fedoralover

[BendingOak]

"Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques. AdVintage

Thank you Thomas, that is almost exactly what I said from the beginning of this thread. And by the way, judging by the pics in your thread, you do excellent work. The felt, handiwork and block are all top notch.

fedoralover

- You are more then welcome to buy a hat from me and test it out. Why don't you extend this attitude to every other hat maker.

- Jeff, do you really think Steve post everything on this site.

- I never said anything about water repellent. don't assume, you know what that does?

[BendingOak]

How the #### can you argue with someone who does this for a living? It only shows your ignorance, it doesn't matter how many hats have you own, what are you trying to compensate?
John is a man of his word, who I'm sure knows quite a lot about hat making. You are just a fan boy.

Thank you, the lack of respect sometimes is unbelievable.

[BendingOak]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques.

please read my posts carefully and completely.

[Indiana Jeff]

- Jeff, do you really think Steve post everything on this site.

No, but back in the day Steve did share an awful lot of valuable information teaching many members about the hat making process or helping them with their efforts to make hats. Steve would be the first to say at times he probably over-shared and gave away techniques that helped out potential competitors.

This topic of pre-aging has piqued my interest so I've been reading through Steve's old posts to see what he has said about it over the years.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[fedoralover]

John, it's your product and your claims about your product. It's up to you to as the seller to prove those statements are true, not the consumer. The fact that you keep avoiding providing that proof but instead resort to deflection and misdirection to avoid it tells me you don't have any. And I suspect you will answer this in the same way. And that's really too bad because here you have an opportunity to back up your claims but you refuse to do it. So what are we to think?

And what's even sadder is the fact that you make a great hat. I've seen them, I know they are a great quality hat. So you don't need to put all this stuff about "Secret" techniques that only you and a select few are privy to", into selling them. It just puts people off. And now when your bluff is called and you can't show your cards it takes away from what you do. I just wish you could see that.

Seriously John, you don't need that to sell your hats. This is my last post on the matter. I will let you have the last word.

regards fedoralover

[BendingOak]

John, it's your product and your claims about your product. It's up to you to as the seller to prove those statements are true, not the consumer. The fact that you keep avoiding providing that proof but instead resort to deflection and misdirection to avoid it tells me you don't have any. And I suspect you will answer this in the same way. And that's really too bad because here you have an opportunity to back up your claims but you refuse to do it. So what are we to think?

And what's even sadder is the fact that you make a great hat. I've seen them, I know they are a great quality hat. So you don't need to put all this stuff about "Secret" techniques that only you and a select few are privy to", into selling them. It just puts people off. And now when your bluff is called and you can't show your cards it takes away from what you do. I just wish you could see that.

Seriously John, you don't need that to sell your hats. This is my last post on the matter. I will let you have the last word.

regards fedoralover

Let me have the last word. Now that's funny. Please explain how to prove a secret technique without sharing it with the word. That's absolutely funny to no end.


My question is why do you go out of your way when this entire thing started with a question asking about the AB/Penman pre-aging stabilizing technique? When the only one who can answer that question is Steve, Marc and myself. For some reason you now have made it your pet project in life to challange that.

You know if you don't think we have our on special technique, don't buy a hat. It's that simple. I don't understand this constant attitude by a few people. I think it's the old sower grapes all over again.

I'm done, I'm tired of this. How many times do I try to help and when I answer a simple question it turns into this. I don't asked to be dragged into other vendors thread. I get dragged into them. I'm done. I wonder why so many vendors have stop joining into the forum anymore.

[BendingOak]

- Jeff, do you really think Steve post everything on this site.

No, but back in the day Steve did share an awful lot of valuable information teaching many members about the hat making process or helping them with their efforts to make hats. Steve would be the first to say at times he probably over-shared and gave away techniques that helped out potential competitors.

This topic of pre-aging has piqued my interest so I've been reading through Steve's old posts to see what he has said about it over the years.



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Do you think we live in a static state????? That's a very old posts you are going over and no matter what you have seen on this forum. It's very little compared to what he knows.

[Indiana Jeff]

Of course things don't stay in a static state. That's why I miss Steve's involvement here, he did share as he developed new techniques or rediscovered old forgotten ways of doing things he shared with the community.


Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[darthjones]

Hey, John -

Thanks for chiming in regardless. My advice is to just steer away from threads that you feel are kookie. Me, I love reading what you have to say here on just about anything.

As far as pre-aging goes I'm just glad that you do it!

[adVintage]

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques.

please read my posts carefully and completely.

I do. I was answering to this:

...Most hat makers only stream and spray their hats when they block them...

Sorry, but that is not true. You can advertise whatever you want, but please don't speak for us other custom hatters. Whatever techniques you use, we also have our own ways to extend durabilty of felt. And if your way of doing this is better than ours or much different, who wants to tell? We don't know your techniqes, but you don't know ours, too.

[Hollowpond]

I think what fedora lover was suggesting was a demonstration of how your way is better, John. Like by giving us information on length of time between reblocks for your hats or other hats. Or by setting up a video where you dunk your hat and another competitors hat (brand x, if you will) and actually showing how your way is better instead of becoming indignant and insisting your way is best.
Heck, I don't know how you'd do it. You're the hat maker. All I know is the way you are responding here is not helping either your case or your business.

[Jeremiah]

Hey, John -

Thanks for chiming in regardless. My advice is to just steer away from threads that you feel are kookie. Me, I love reading what you have to say here on just about anything.

As far as pre-aging goes I'm just glad that you do it!

I agree with this.

[RedburnIV]

I think what fedora lover was suggesting was a demonstration of how your way is better, John. Like by giving us information on length of time between reblocks for your hats or other hats. Or by setting up a video where you dunk your hat and another competitors hat (brand x, if you will) and actually showing how your way is better instead of becoming indignant and insisting your way is best.
Heck, I don't know how you'd do it. You're the hat maker. All I know is the way you are responding here is not helping either your case or your business.

Thank You!!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oklahoma Jones]

Not fanning flames, but isn't there a thread here somewhere that describes 'smoking' the felt? I believe that it was a process done in Italy for a specific brand? The article said smoking the hats killed the felt, so they didn't taper...

[Indiana Jeff]

Right you are! Good memory. Here's the thread. http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... ng#p598821" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[BendingOak]

Right you are! Good memory. Here's the thread. http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f ... ng#p598821" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Do all hatters pre age the felt to extend the life between reblocks? Like how AB and Penman Hats do?

Almost all custom hatters I know do more than just steam and block the hat. There are different ways to extend the durabilty of felts. Much water, heat and pressure (as fedoralover already said), but also surface work, "water proofing" and "burning" e.g.. You have to extract as much "air" of the felt as possible to get the single hairs of the felt as tight together as possible. We all do that, but we all have our own techniques.

please read my posts carefully and completely.

I do. I was answering to this:

...Most hat makers only stream and spray their hats when they block them...

Sorry, but that is not true. You can advertise whatever you want, but please don't speak for us other custom hatters. Whatever techniques you use, we also have our own ways to extend durabilty of felt. And if your way of doing this is better than ours or much different, who wants to tell? We don't know your techniqes, but you don't know ours, too.

Indy hat makers make up a small number of hat makers. Get out of your own backyard.

[BendingOak]

I think what fedora lover was suggesting was a demonstration of how your way is better, John. Like by giving us information on length of time between reblocks for your hats or other hats. Or by setting up a video where you dunk your hat and another competitors hat (brand x, if you will) and actually showing how your way is better instead of becoming indignant and insisting your way is best.
Heck, I don't know how you'd do it. You're the hat maker. All I know is the way you are responding here is not helping either your case or your business.

Why should I do anything for you? All I did was answer one question about our technique and get called all kinds of things. Ask this of other vendors.

[BendingOak]

Hey, John -

Thanks for chiming in regardless. My advice is to just steer away from threads that you feel are kookie. Me, I love reading what you have to say here on just about anything.

As far as pre-aging goes I'm just glad that you do it!

Thank you. I agree and take it one step further. I'm gone.

[Hollowpond]

Your not doing it for me. I would think you would want to do it for yourself. Some of your customers are willing to take you at your word. It is evident in this thread and others that other potential customers are not so willing. I think your hats would stand up, that's why I suggested it. It would be awesome advertising.

Yet again, however, you choose to be defensive and respond angrily. You do realize your customers (and potential customers) can read this stuff right?

If other vendors out there would like to take up this challenge, I would think it would be great advertising. Unfortunately though, this board does not have a lot of custom hatter presence anymore.

*sigh* I miss Fedora...

[RedburnIV]

Your not doing it for me. I would think you would want to do it for yourself. Some of your customers are willing to take you at your word. It is evident in this thread and others that other potential customers are not so willing. I think your hats would stand up, that's why I suggested it. It would be awesome advertising.

Yet again, however, you choose to be defensive and respond angrily. You do realize your customers (and potential customers) can read this stuff right?

If other vendors out there would like to take up this challenge, I would think it would be great advertising. Unfortunately though, this board does not have a lot of custom hatter presence anymore.

*sigh* I miss Fedora...

Yes!!!!!!! Brilliant!!!! How many times has he quit on this thread, yet he keeps coming back. John, you're AN authority, not THE authority. Then again his opinion matters more than mine so.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk