Just a quick question

[whipwarrior]

Where in the h-e double hockeysticks can you buy one of those plastic full-moon clips to use in a converted Webley? Moreover, how much does one cost? I'd really love to actually fire this thing someday, and I don't particularly feel like spending $7-$12 bucks to get into a gun show on the odd chance that somebody might have one.

Thanks in advance, guys.

[Indiana Grendel]

My first stops would be ebay and www.forthehunt.com, an online auction site geared towards firearms and outdoors supplies. I tinker with guns a little and collect Mauser rifles, and have found some great items on both of those sites.

Cheers, and happy hunting!

IG

[Kentucky Blues]

well, what about spending $7-12 on a gun show to see a gun show as well as seeing if someone has what you're looking for?

regards, daryl.

[Sergei]

I forgot whipwarrior whether your Webley is a 45? If it's a 45, you can check out ebay. There is a guy that sells .45 acp, half-moon, full-moon clips. That's where I bought mine. Also check with Lee Keppler. Whatever is easier for you.

-Sergei

[whipwarrior]

My Webley is a .455 with 1/16 shaved from the back of the cylinder, allowing a .45 ACP conversion. Maybe this weekend I'll take it down to a local gunsmith and have it checked out to determine whether its in good firing condition. As far as attending a gun show simply for the sake of doing so, I've been to only two before, and they gave me flashbacks of The Survivors. :-D Outside of our mutual hobby, guns aren't really my cup of tea. Thanks anyway, though.


-Dale

[Pyroxene]

Dale,

I haven't seen any plastic ones. Just metal ones that have gun blueing on them.

Sergei's suggestion is the best one. He forgot to mention that to look for the guy that sell the clips with the "demooner" tool. It's a tool the help you remove the spent shells from the half moon and full moon clips. If you don't have the tool, it's really easy bend or break the clip even though they are made out of metal.

I would also add that some of your older gun stores/pawn shops may have some clips laying around. That's where I picked up my first 3. They are not in much demand so when you do find sombody with them, they will probably be happy to let them go.

The third option is to go to Smith & Wessons website (www.smithandwesson.com). Go to Products & Services/Firearm Accessories/Full Moon & Half Moon Clips. The item you might interested in is the Full Moon Clips for .45 ACP. Item #191420000 They sell 4 for $5.36. I bought some and they appear to work well. It's the same ones that can be used in the Smith 1917. I haven't fired the gun but the cartridge fit correctly. Here's what they look like in my Webley.



Cheers,
Pyro.

[IndyLee]

20 .45 ACP Full Moon Clips
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=92137
20 for $9.97

[skywlkr]

That's a pretty sweet deal there. If I had a cylinder fed .45 I would jump on that deal.

Luke

[whipwarrior]

I took my Webley downtown and had it examined by a licensed gunsmith, and he says that it's in good firing condition, and that it was a remarkably good specimen considering its age. I asked him about the full-moon clips, and he produced a huge gun parts catalog and ordered them for me- 5 clips for $5.00. I left my name and number, and he said that the order would go out today. Furthermore, there is an indoor shooting range in Macon that I can go to, and gun owners are not required to have a license to shoot in Georgia. So, with any luck, I'll be able to actually fire the gun within a month or so.


-Dale

P.S.- How much does a box of bullets cost for a Webley, and exactly which type do I need?

[IndyMac]

You can get .45ACP factory loads for $6.00 to $8.00 if you shop around. The .455 Webley round the gun was designed for originally operated at a somewhat lower pressure although the Webley is a very strong weapon. If I was going to shoot it a great deal I would hand load to the original specs as to velocity and bullet weight and use lead bullets instead of jacketed to save wear and tear on the gun. Any reloading manual should be able to provide the loads although you may have to go to the .45 Auto Rim section to find loads for the proper bullet weight.

['Ohio' Erick]

Pyroxene,

Great picture! I think that its wonderful that - when you guys are discussing firearms and using terms (technical jargon) that I'm not familiar with - I can always seem to rely on you to provide an excellent picture that immediately makes things clear for me. Thank you for that!

Now to the question(s). My dad's "22 Special" has a full moon clip that is flush mounted in the cylinder and forces out the spent cartridges when you break-open the revolver. When you are ready to reload, there is a little button at the frame joint (where the two pieces of the revolver frame pivot) that, when pushed, drops the clip back down flush with the cylinder. Is this something that can only be found on breakopen revolvers? Or can the cylinder-advance head on swing-open revolvers be modified to include a half-moon and/or full-moon clip that - when the cylinder pin is pushed in - performs the same function as the clip in my dad's break-open .22? Or am I "S.O.L." and just going to have to learn to use the clips shown in your pictures?

Now, forgive my total and complete ignorance here, but are the shells loaded into the clip and then placed into the cylinder, or is the clip somehow affixed to the cylinder and the cartridges fed into the cylinder by hand?

Also, don't they now make a cartridge that fits the .45 ACP "just right"?

I'll see if I can get my girlfriend's new camera I got her for Christmas hooked up to her laptop today, take some pictures of what I'm talking about, e-mail them to myself, and then post them here.

Warm Regards,

Erick

[Pyroxene]

Now to the question(s). My dad's "22 Special" has a full moon clip that is flush mounted in the cylinder and forces out the spent cartridges when you break-open the revolver. When you are ready to reload, there is a little button at the frame joint (where the two pieces of the revolver frame pivot) that, when pushed, drops the clip back down flush with the cylinder. Is this something that can only be found on breakopen revolvers? Or can the cylinder-advance head on swing-open revolvers be modified to include a half-moon and/or full-moon clip that - when the cylinder pin is pushed in - performs the same function as the clip in my dad's break-open .22? Or am I "S.O.L." and just going to have to learn to use the clips shown in your pictures?

Thanks for your kind words.

From what I understand, .22 Specials cartridges are obsolete. Unless they have been relabeled, I haven't seen them on any of the local shelves. I have only seen .22 Long Rifle (LR) and .22 Magnum. RonC or Michaelson would know more.

The gun you mentioned sounds like it operates very much like the Webley. However, the extractor pin automatically returns to the "home" position when the barrel is pushed all the way down. Just like you see in the LC on the beach.

Now, the Smith & Wesson .45 ACP and .22 LR revolvers that I own function almost identical. There is a spring loaded pin attached to a six pointed star that you use to extract the shells. On the .22 LR cartridge, the star can grab the edge of the shell for quick extraction. It's a different story with the .45 ACP.

With the .45 ACP, the star can't grab the edge of the shell so you have to pull the shells out one by one.

Now, forgive my total and complete ignorance here, but are the shells loaded into the clip and then placed into the cylinder, or is the clip somehow affixed to the cylinder and the cartridges fed into the cylinder by hand?

The shells are placed into the clip and one would load up several clips. For the S&W and Colts, the served as a sort of speed loader because there is a lip or edge in each chamber that keeps the cartridge in it's place. Now with the Webleys converted to .45 ACP the clips served need. To convert the .455 to the .45 ACP, a gunsmith needed to ream out the cylindera little and file off the cylinder face some to accomodate the thicker head of the .45 ACP cartridge. The star was then used to keep the shell in place. Otherwise, it would fall through the cylinder and on to the floor.

Also, don't they now make a cartridge that fits the .45 ACP "just right"?

Yes. It's called the .45 Autorim. This one website says it best.

People really didn't like those half-moon clips and in the early 1920s Remington designed a new cartridge, the .45 Auto Rim. It had a big, thick rim to fit into the fairly large gap between breech and cylinder required to accommodate the clips. It eliminated the curse of shredded fingers that often accompanied use of the clips.

Just my experience.
Pyro.

[RonC]

Collins Cartridge Company of Conroe, Texas loads .45 Auto Rim cartridges. This is where I buy mine for my S&W Model 1937. Their website is: http://www.cccammo.com/

Ron

[Pyroxene]

Here's a comparison of the different cartridges.



.22 Long Rifle

Bullet Diameter: .223 inches
Max. Overall Length: .985 inches
Bullet Weight: 40 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 1138 fps
Muzzle Energy: 97 ft-lbs

9mm Luger (Parabellum)

Bullet Diameter: .356 inches
Max. Overall Length: 1.169 inches
Bullet Weight: 124 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 1110 fps
Muzzle Energy: 340 ft-lbs

.45 Auto Rim

Bullet Diameter: .452 inches
Max. Overall Length: 1.275 inches
Bullet Weight: 230 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 810 fps
Muzzle Energy: 335 ft-lbs

.45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)

Bullet Diameter: .452 inches
Max. Overall Length: 1.275 inches
Bullet Weight: 230 grs
Muzzle Velocity: 835 fps
Muzzle Energy: 356 ft-lbs

(Source: Haas' Guide to Small Arms Ammunition, Mike Haas, 1997, Version 3.0)

[Indiana Grendel]

Thanks for the technical info, Pyro! It's always interesting to see the differences in rounds like that.

Cheers!

IG

[Anejo Joe]

A company called Gerogia Arms carries both the auto rim and the standard .45 in a lower load with an all-lead bullet for older guns. I have shot both in my Webley, and have used the half-moon and the full-moon clips. The half-moons are easier to carry, and you can even find some WWII pouches designed to carry them.

[RonC]

Anejo Joe, thanks for the information! They have quite a selection of ammunition.

Ron

[whipwarrior]

Yes, I've heard of Georgia Arms. But just out of curiosity, how much does a box of .45 Autorim lead bullets go for?

[RonC]

According to their website, $12.00 per 50-round box. Not a bad price.

Ron

[Anejo Joe]

The main thing that is good about Georgia Arms in the lower load and the lead bullet. The lead bullet protects the rifling and the lower pressure puts less strain on the gun. I have no doubt that my gun could fire a +P cartridge, but I want to preserve a gun that is nearly 100 years old as much as I can, and still shoot it. And a 230 gr. bullet at 800 fps. is still a very good round.

[zohar]

I shoot Georgia Arms ammo all the time. They always have a booth at the gun shows in my area, and I tend to walk away with 1000 or so round of ammunition pretty much every time

['Ohio' Erick]

Pyroxene,

Thanks a million for the wonderfully detailed information! Absolutely fantastic!

Now, let me just make sure that I actually understand the info. that you returned. Do I understand you correctly to be saying that the breakopen .45 ACP revolvers have a spring-loaded half-moon clip - similar to my father's .22 Special revolver - that is supposed to push the spent cartridges back out of the cylinder, but the S & M .45 ACP revolver's half-moon clip would not catch the rim of the .45 Auto cartridge as it should have, therefore Remington developed the .45 AutoRim cartridge so that the .45 ACP's spring-loaded half-moon clip would catch the cartridge rim as it is supposed to? And, if that is the case, then firing Auto Rim cartridges in the .45 ACP revolver is the solution to that problem?

The M1917 .45 ACP Revolver that I am looking at purchasing (for $345), I believe, has a cylinder that swivels out. In this case, would I be correct in assuming that I will still need to look into purchasing half-moon clips for it, or do I simply just need to purchase .45 Auto Rim cartridges to fire in it? And, if I do use the Auto Rim cartridges would I find that I still need to remove the spent cartridges with my fingers, and so I might as well just go ahead and buy the half-moon clips?

For the S&W and Colts, the served as a sort of speed loader because there is a lip or edge in each chamber that keeps the cartridge in it's place.

Do I understand you correctly to be saying that the .45 ACP's cylinder chambers are reamed-out slightly larger in the rear of the chamber, thereby creating a "lip" or "edge" that catches the cartridge's rim, so that the cartridge will not fall through the cylinder? If this is the case, does this cause the cartridge rim to rest flush with the cylinder face? Does this apply to the Auto cartridge only, or does it also apply to the Auto Rim cartidge as well?

From what I understand, .22 Specials cartridges are obsolete. Unless they have been relabeled, I haven't seen them on any of the local shelves. I have only seen .22 Long Rifle (LR) and .22 Magnum. RonC or Michaelson would know more.

Yeah, my father has always fired regular .22 Long Rifle cartridges in his ".22 Special."

Is there some reference source somewhere that I could go to that would, for instance, show me a blow-apart diagram of the M1917 .45 ACP revolver? Perhaps a book you might recommend that I read?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I just want to insure that I am understanding what you're saying.

Warm Regards,

Erick

[Trebor]

Hi Erick,

My dad's "22 Special" has a full moon clip that is flush mounted in the cylinder and forces out the spent cartridges when you break-open the revolver.

You are confusing the "extracter star" on a revolver with a full-moon clip. The extractor star is the piece that pushes the cartridges out of the cylinder. In top break guns like the Webley, the extractor star is automatically engaged to push out the cases or live rounds. In solid frame revolvers, like Indy's Smith & Wesson, the extractor star is activated by pushing on the extractor rod by hand after the cylinder has been swung out of the frame on the crane. The extractor star is an integral part of the gun. A full moon clip is a separate stamped sheet metal piece that is attached to the cartridges. The piece in your dad's revolver is an extractor star, not a full moon clip.

The full moon clip is a thin piece of sheet metal that holds 6 rounds. The first clips developed were called "half moon" clips and held three roudns each. Two half moon clips would be used to load a six shot revolver. During World War I the U.S. Army needed revolvers that would fire the same .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) round that was used in the standard 1911 semi-automatic pistol. The problem is that revolver rounds have a small rim around the bottom of the case to keep the rounds in the cylinder (otherwise they'd fall right through) while .45 ACP rounds do NOT have that rim, since it is not needed in an autoloader. In order to use .45 ACP in a revolver, S&W developed the stamped sheet-metal half moon clip. Three loaded rounds are snapped into two clips and then the rounds are inserted into the cylinder with the clips attached. The clips keep the rounds from falling all the way through the six chambers (cylinder holes) and also provides proper headspace for the rounds. The full moon clip was developed later. Revolvers that use full moon clips are extremely fast to reload because the rounds and clip are inserted and removed as one complete unit.

Now, forgive my total and complete ignorance here, but are the shells loaded into the clip and then placed into the cylinder, or is the clip somehow affixed to the cylinder and the cartridges fed into the cylinder by hand?

The rounds are snapped into the clip and the whole unit is loaded into the cylinder. In normal revolvers that do not use clips, the rounds are either inserted one at a time by hand or are loaded all at once with a speedloader. The speedloader is NOT inserted in the cylinder though, it merely holds the rounds while they are lined up with the charge holes until you activate the loader to drop the rounds into the holes.

['Ohio' Erick]

Trebor,

Thank you for the clarification. I had a feeling when I was typing in my post yesterday that I was probably not using the correct terminology, so thank you for elaborating on that for me. I'm sure my firearms 'ignorance' can probably get to be a little frustrating for some of the more knowledgable people in this forum at times, but I hope that they will "bear with me" as I am an eager student and a "quick study." My father never really took the time to teach me any of this when I was younger and I didn't really develop any interest until about a year ago. ####, I was an avid archery enthusiast when I was young and even lost interest in that until about a year ago, and then I went out and bought my Golden Eagle compound bow last summer, practiced for several months until I was back up to "par" again (3" triangular spread at 40 yards! Yeah, baby!), and started going deer hunting with a friend. Now I doubt that I'll ever lose interest in that again - even if I never get a deer (no luck my first season out, but I'm not beating myself up over it). I just enjoy being out there in the woods, by myself, stalking the deer - not just for the peace & quiet and solitude it affords, but also for the "competitive nature" it brings out in me and, most of all, for the challenge and learning experience I receive. Anyway, I'm sure it will be the same for me with firearms as it was with archery - I will become a 'sponge' and soak up information from everyone around me, as well as from reading and studying on my own (as it probably should be). I will "get it" eventually, so if all of you more advanced & knowledgable firearms owners would please just continue to be as patient as you have to date, I will get there, and probably at 'blinding' speed.

Now, onwards to my inevitable questions.... In my last post I asked if purchasing AutoRim cartridges would eliminate any need for purchasing half-moon clips for the 1917 Model .45 ACP revolver I attempting to purchase (someone else is reviewing it right now; if they don't buy it, I get next shot)? Or, even with the AutoRim cartridges, would I still be 'stuck' removing the spent shells by hand - so I might as well just break down and buy the half-moon clips?

Or...does the 1917 Model .45 ACP revolver actually have an extractor star and extractor rod already included as an integral part of the gun?

The reason I ask is because I've never seen the back of the cylinder of one of these pistols, so I don't know what the loading/reloading procedure is for it.

Also, I am looking at buying some firearms reference material; the two in particular that I am currently considering are Big Bore Handguns by John Taffin & Understanding Ballistics; Basic to Advanced Ballistics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained (author not listed). Has anyone read these books, would they recommend them, or would they recommend something different?

Thanks again!

Warm Regards,

Erick

[IndyMac]

The extractor star will work fine with .45 Auto Rim. I have not read any of Taffin's books but he is very knowledgeable about handguns and writes for several gun magazines. Another book to look for is Sixguns by Elmer Keith. Keith's book is older and deals with the older handguns, but I would not recomend some of his handloads for novices.

[Trebor]

Or...does the 1917 Model .45 ACP revolver actually have an extractor star and extractor rod already included as an integral part of the gun?

The extractor star and rod are part of the 1917 revolver. The rim on the autorim cartridge will overlap the extractor star allowing the .45 autorim cartridges to be extracted. This is exactly how it works for normal .38/.357, etc, revolvers, btw, the cartridge rim rests on the extractor star. The full moon clips are not needed with the .45 Autorim cartridge and I don't think they'd even work that round in the first place.

However, I'd still advise you to buy some full moon or half moon clips, a half dozen to a dozen should be enough. The reason is that .45 autorim is a somewhat rare cartridge and is not as readily available, or as cheap, as good old .45 ACP. .45 ACP can be found in any gunshop or sporting goods store, while .45 Autorim is a specialty item. Just buy the clips and shoot .45 ACP, and you'll be better off. Buy the demooner as well, to get the emtpy cases off of the clips. It will make your life easier.

Also, I am looking at buying some firearms reference material; the two in particular that I am currently considering are Big Bore Handguns by John Taffin & Understanding Ballistics; Basic to Advanced Ballistics Simplified, Illustrated & Explained (author not listed). Has anyone read these books, would they recommend them, or would they recommend something different?

To be honest, you aren't going to get alot of either of those books at this stage in your shooting career. What you need to do is take a good introductionary handgun course. I HIGHLY reccomend the NRA Basic Pistol course. It will give you a good, solid foundation for your shooting hobby. As part of the course you'll get the NRA Basic Pistol book, which is a good intro reference to the basics of handgunning. Once you know the basics, you'll have a better handle on what you should try to learn next and what questions to ask when you consider different guns, etc.

There's also a lot of good resources on the web. The NRA has a site at ww.nra.org (I believe). A great gun only discussion board is www.thehighroad.org. There's also the Rec.Guns FAQ at www.recguns.org

Hope this helps,

Rob/Trebor

[Pyroxene]

Thanks for filling in the gaps while I was out.

I haven't tried to shoot autorim. But after all the info on this thread, I am looking forward to it. Naturally, I will take some pics when I do.


Cheers,
Pyro

[whipwarrior]

Quick question: Does the Webley cartridge extractor function properly while using half-moon or full moon clips?

[Pyroxene]

Yes. It functions properly. When you break the Webley open, it's almost like it's handing you the shells.

[whipwarrior]

Coolness. I can't wait for my full moon clips to arrive!

[Pyroxene]

Yes. It functions properly. When you break the Webley open, it's almost like it's handing you the shells.

The full moon clip is holding the shells and the extractor star is pushing the clip up.