BK Raiders vs. Nowak Raiders

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:17 am

I can confirm that BK has not taken any TN jackets apart. The measurements of the #517 jacket that was on loan were actually off. BK studied the jacket and made corrected patterns in accordance with previous notes and with the measurements of 000/888.

We hear the complains about the price of this premium jacket although it is actually cheaper than a TN. Cheaper also than jackets from Aero, Eastman, Goodwear, Lost Worlds, Lewis Leathers, Real McCoys and many others. In some cases cheaper than a hat too. G&B, US Wings and the like are mall type, mass produced jackets and cannot be compared with high end jackets.

BK offers also a replica of the Main Hero jacket with pattern details made after close examination of the details found in screenshots of the film and other sources.

Thank you,
Andy

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:51 am

Some might regard buying an Indy jacket at that price as frivolous spending. If so, then they might can justify spending $500 for the grainly lamb, or possibly an Expedition. Diego has also started producing his version of the jacket at that price range. If not that, then the Wested Hero, for $300 plus shipping. If not that, then members can select the Todd's Standard for $200, or a USW. Still, there is the secondhand market, the Bazaar, Ebay and the like, for deeper discounts, usually at least half off the retail price.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:11 am

Looks to me like every question and concern brought up by everyone in this thread has been satisfyingly answered or addressed except BendingOak`s concern about copying and that question doesn`t seem to have a direct answer. Some facts were given but it is always seems to fall back to that "grey" area. But overall, a good discussion thread!

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:32 am

afalzon wrote:We hear the complains about the price of this premium jacket although it is actually cheaper than a TN.

G&B, US Wings and the like are mall type, mass produced jackets and cannot be compared with high end jackets.

Andy, I dont't think most of us are 'complaining' about the price of BK's jackets per se. We are merely noting that right now they are one of the most expensive Indy jackets you can buy. Some people find that is money well spent while others can't imagine paying that much money for a leather jacket. I am the former by the way and my wife is the latter

.

I assume that you meant that the prices on the G&B or US Wings jackets cannot be compared with 'high end jackets' like the BK, but of course they can. That's a big part of the fun we have here, comparing and endlessly debating the merits of the various offerings of jackets, hats, boots, and what have you. For some people a US Wings jacket is just what they are looking for and for others the BK fit's the bill, but that in no way detracts anything from either maker.

I find it a bit unkind to compare the Wings and G&B jackets to 'mall type' jackets. I understand the reasoning there, but I have a Wings Legend that is without a doubt a well made jacket, and I doubt that it is anywhere near as being mass produced as a mall jacket. I have a TN and the Legend compares very well in its construction to the TN, if not in terms of screen accuracy. I hope to add a BK, either the Relic Hunter, or an A2 to my closet one day and when I do, they will all be in good company.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:51 am

For me, part of the process was simply to demystify. A leather jacket is strips or panels of animal skins/hides, usually lamb, goat or cowhide sewed together usually on some type of industrial sewing machine by leather needle and thread. Sometimes glue is added to keep parts of it together until it can be sewn. Of course, how it is put together, and the selection of the materials, such as the grade/quality of leather, choice of liner and hardware, etc., the effort taken to sew it together correctly, etc. make all the difference. The more human hands are involved in the process of personalization, is generally regarded as having more value. Of course, HOW people go about this process makes all the difference.

For many, if not most, a "mall" jacket is good enough for going to and from work, to wear around, etc. I just found a great deal on a Roundtree and York, Dillard's brand jacket, and bought it for warmth. Its practical and was a great deal. It meets needs. Let the days needs be sufficient for the day.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:26 am

afalzon wrote:...G&B, US Wings and the like are mall type, mass produced jackets and cannot be compared with high end jackets...

I'd love to find what mall you're shopping at that has such high-hquality jackets!

Gotta love vendors whose tactics include attacking other vendors, rather than just touting their own products.

Kemosabe's thread on "Ick-Free Gear" is definitely coming to mind.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:47 am

...and whats the other lingo we've seen over the years? Everyone else produces an inferior' copy. Doesn't matter who you are, you just produce an inferior copy and that's the way it is!

I've never known anyone to complain about the quality, nor stitching coming apart on a G&B jacket. I've only heard of one that had an issue with the stitching being uneven around the collar stand, but it was thick cowhide, and he was trying to get something for nothing. It is my understanding that they use the strongest thread you can use. A jacket is only as strong as its weakest link.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:50 am

Nobody said mall jackets aren't good. They fit the bill, for what they are.
The Indy jacket as we make it, is a VERY SPECIALIZED jacket made for a tiny market of collectors and enthusiasts.
If we had the capacity to distribute this jacket to the malls in USA, the price would drop significantly.

Right now, it's cheaper than Belstaff who have international distribution network.

The price of this jacket is very honest for what it is, the effort put to make it, the quality of the materials and craftsmanship.
Actually it is a bargain.

Also, the leathers that G&B use are nowhere near what we use.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:55 am

Certainly an unbiased, objective opinion here...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:04 pm

I will show you what I mean in my next post.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:07 pm

I'm just saying that the evaluation of customers holds a lot more sway in my opinion than the one getting money through tearing down other's products.

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Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:18 pm

Michaelson attempted to calm things down, but folks seemed to be too involved in the action to notice the referee.

Thanks, Michael. At least SOMEONE noticed.

I guess I could have been blunter and just posted the general rule regarding this action:

Note to vendors....it is not allowed (nor professional) for vendors to 'attack' other vendors in any section of the site. Please keep your discussions/posts to your own product and let your customers do the comparisons, pro and con.

That covers things, doesn't it?

Regards! Michaelson

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:50 pm

Tundrarider wrote:"Sticks and stones
may break my bones
but words will never hurt me."

After all these years, that childhood mantra floats back to the surface. Toldog07 previously described some of the behaviors around here resembling "elementary school children." Michaelson attempted to calm things down, but folks seemed to be too involved in the action to notice the referee.

Andy, I can understand your defensivness being aroused as there has been much criticism made here about your company. But, please let your product speak for itself, without tearing down other people's work. Nothing good will come of this type of comparison and it will only cause rifts and divisions among members.

There's another old saying about comparing apples to oranges. In this recent twist, though we are comparing Indy jackets (fruit) we are now more specifically comparing an Expedition (apple) to a Kelso (orange). What makes the difference between them is the price point. Just as it would be unfair to compare a Todd's jacket to a Nowak. Or a $50.00 Headpiece to a $400.00 Headpiece.

No one is saying that the Kelso isn't made from extraordinary leather. No one is saying that the Kelso is not a high end jacket. No one is saying that the Kelso is unworthy of it's price tag. So, these points need not be defended.

But, since the Expedition has been somewhat disparaged here and there is no one from their company to step in and defend it, I feel compelled to do so. The Gibson and Barnes jackets are made in America. I have been to their production site and met many of the folks working there. I met the man who personally selected the leather for my jacket. The same man cut the leather for my jacket. I also met another man (working next to the first) who personally stitched together and assembled my jacket.

Gibson and Barnes guarantees their stitching and zipper for the lifetime of the original owner.

You can buy the Expeditions in their showroom or order them from their site. I am unaware of Expeditions being sold in any shopping malls.

Are Expeditions (apples) and Kelso jackets (oranges) both high quality Indy jackets (fruit)? Certainly. Are they different? No doubt.

Gibson and Barnes makes a great jacket, stands behind it completely and lets the jacket speak for itself.

The Kelso is also an outstanding jacket, as I've said on this site before. If you read any of my previous posts about the Kelso, you'll note that I have been nothing less than highly complimentary and supportive of your company, particularly when your company was being criticized.

Let's take the high road here and rise above our lowly natures which seem to encourage us to create divisions, set up opposing camps and wage war.

Michael

Man that's a well writen post.

Gailen

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:23 pm

There is no attack against other vendors.
G&B have their own strategy, they make a very good jacket with good quality leather which they sell at an affordable price.

BK have a different strategy by making a very good jacket with premium quality leather and they sell at higher price.

If you show the BK leather to G&B they will tell you that the price difference is well justified.

Also, nobody said that G&B cannot make a jacket with premium leather. If they wanted, they could tomorrow morning buy some more expensive skins and make a jacket with better leather which they would sell at higher price. It's a matter of choice.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:27 pm

I will emphasize the last line in the rule, as you, a registered vendor, have apparently missed it, afalzon.

Please keep your discussions/posts to your own product and let your customers do the comparisons, pro and con.

If you want to relinquish your vendor status in order to continue down this path of discussion, let us know. Otherwise, please follow the rule as stated in the general rules. It's also posted in the header of the vendor rules post at the top of the vendors section.

Last warning.

Michaelson

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:06 pm

It is a great time to be an Indy jacket collector, and gear in general. At no other time has there been more than 1, maybe 2 vendors that produced faithful copies of the jacket. Now you have several, and at vertually all different price points, from budget to high end. Some buy simply because they might need to wear it to a costume party once or twice a year, here and there, while others want the very jacket ripped from the man's back. You can get what you want today, and no need to pitch a tent in a vendor's camp, but to point a potential customer in the right direction that best meets his needs and budget requirements.

Kt Templar · Post by **Kt Templar** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:14 pm

It seems to me that Andy's comments are an example of Comparative Advertising. A commonplace and valid advertising methodology in the US as well as many other places in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advertising" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"I'm a Mac I'm a PC" for instance.

Post by **Tennessee Smith** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:22 pm

Exactly KT, which is why we don't need a vendor knocking another if that other cant be here to defend themselves. Thanks for finding the right terminology

That commercial alone is what we don't want here from a vendor or their spokesperson.

Besides, the thread is about a BK and a Nowak anyways...

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:10 pm

Well, getting back to the original thread... TN and BK both have gone out of their way to find interesting leathers in interesting places. I think G&B is fantastic, but different. I'm always impressed with Tundrarider's efforts at breaking it in. They are absolutely tough as they come and built for a lifetime. As we know, the originals for the movie weren't.

Tony went with heavy hides (mostly) and I imagine some of that might have come from all his years with body-builders and generally bigger, more robust guys. BK has got the hide down from my impression to reaaaaally close to what we see on screen. However, if you want protection from the jacket, you can't expect softer, more flexible hides to do the trick if your riding motorcycles or crashing through the woods.

I've had 5 Nowaks off and on, and love them. I love the new BK too, but for different reasons. They're cut very similarly, but the leathers are different, which was what I wanted. I like the medium weight, slouchy, BK look, but also wear the Nowaks for a different look. (I wore a distressed Wested today and loved it.) I would say the BK looks the most Raiders of all, and believe it is the most like the originals. That said, I don't always want to look like I stepped out of Raiders.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:56 pm

I'd like to defend G&B too. I have owned many, many leather jackets over the years - Aero and others - that were hand made and very expensive. I have rarely seen leather finer than that selected by G&B.

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:24 am

And I think that that historically, one of the issues is that we should not have to defend a vendor. Most of us who have experience with Flight Suits/G&B Expeditions know that these comments, etc. are unfounded. Used to, there was a real purpose for starting threads on these jackets because some of them would vertually fall apart on you, had stitching issues, quality control was not up to par, and the like. Such is the exception rather than the rule today, and even if there is, the vendor will usually make it right with you, so let's wield the forum effectively as a tool, and as a way to help others, to disburse info., educate, update, etc.

Post by **Dalexs** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:58 am

And lets get back on the subject... BK Raiders vs. Nowak Raiders.
This is not supposed to be about G&B.
If you want a comparison thread, by all means, someone please go start one.

Maybe what we need to do, is create an unbiased roundup of all of the current jacket offereings.
(

yeah, I know, unbiased... )

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:34 pm

Did i read Afalzon's post correctly that BK offers a Hero jacket in addition to the regular relic hunter jacket? Isnt the relic hunter jacket already the hero jacket?? what could possibly be different??

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:37 pm

You have the Relic Hunter. People have identified two main jackets used in Raiders, the main Hero jacket, which was used in the Elstree (inside sets) studio shots and all the work done in Tunisia including the WoS and Flying Wing sequences, then there is the Hawaii/Imam jacket. So basically the Raiders jacket, or the Main Hero jacket. Take your choice.

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:30 pm

But does anyone know what the difference between the two is??

Illinois James · Post by **Illinois James** » Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:27 pm

Yeah, good question. Do the differences have to do with cut or strictly the colors/hides?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:06 am

The Hero is striated lambskin. You can see it in the stills of the Temple and Raven Bar scenes as well as the exit from the WoS shots. The collars are different.

Good still of the Hawaii jacket:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm556972800/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Main Hero (note the striations on the upper right panel near the collar):
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm892517120/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...and under Marion's knuckles-Raven Bar:
http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3096546560/tt0082971" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another shot of the main Hero:

Toldog07 · Post by **Toldog07** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:49 pm

so if you just order a relic hunter jacket from the bk website are you getting the hero/elstree jacket or the hawaii jacket?

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:54 pm

your choice to make.

micsteam · Post by **micsteam** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:55 pm

Are we talking jackets or Dems and Repubs ??!!

CM · Post by CM » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:44 am

Texan Scott wrote:
Another shot of the main Hero:

One of those classic shots where you can see that the Indy jacket was not fitted and was kind of baggy. And Harrison was thin. Good photo.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:40 am

I am afraid I disagree, sort of anyway. I don't think the jacket can adequately be described as baggy or as fitted. When the jacket is zipped up, for example in all the scenes in the Raven Bar it looks very fitted, however when it is not zipped it looks super baggy. I don't think that it looks that baggy in the photo you posted. I think it mainly has to do with the way HF is standing. My TN does the exact same thing. I think the baggy/fitted appearance of the jacket is due to the quirky design of the pattern, the off the shoulders, the yoke and armholes, the way it constantly rides back on your shoulders, the size of the collar, all of these things work together to contribute to the appearance of the jacket looking baggy or fitted depending on how it is being worn at any given scene.

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:14 am

I don't know if it hs been said before. I find my TN jacket to be two thick. I love the kelso because it is thin. It just kind of falls on you when you put it on. Don't get me wrong I thinlk the TN is one heck of a jacket and I'd never get rid of it.

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:44 am

Is your TN a lambskin like your Kelso, Galien?

Regards! Michaelson

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:47 am

I think you nailed it, S. Jack. That was my conclusion, anyway. The jacket is blousy in front due to the wider collar, so when unzipped the extra material hangs off the front. Take a look at the diameter of the sleeves in that photo, they are basically narrow. To me, it points to the design and construction. That and around this time, most everyone was fighting dysentery, and fluid loss from the extreme heat. I would think that under these circumstances, they probably stopped filming around noon or so, but imagine being sick like that, still trying to work and also dealing with 120-130f temps?

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:34 pm

Michaelson wrote:Is your TN a lambskin like your Kelso, Galien?

Regards! Michaelson

Yes, both are lamb.

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:38 pm

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:25 pm

I just weighed the TN and the Kelso. The TN was a pound heavier. Used a postal scale. Don't know what that is in dog years?

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:45 pm

About 12 years, I think....depending on breed.

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:10 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

Gailen

Illinois James · Post by **Illinois James** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:32 pm

Ok. I understood the two hide offerings from the website, but I didn't realize they also took the different collars into account.

Thanks guys.

What's the weight of a dog pound anyway??

I have one of those first Nowak shrunken lamb jackets, and it does seem rather thick and heavy.

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:59 pm

Living in Florida the Kelso is more fitting to my lifestyle.

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Illinois James wrote:What's the weight of a dog pound anyway??

European or African variety?

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:11 pm

I don't know. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!

Where's a flying through the air smiley when you need it?

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:18 pm

Illinois James wrote: I have one of those first Nowak shrunken lamb jackets, and it does seem rather thick and heavy.

I wonder if my TN is a an abnormality then. Mine sure doesn't feel heavy. I weighed it and it weighs about 2.6 pounds. It fells very lightweight compared to my Legend in SL, and my Wested ROTLA in goat, but unfortunately I don't have a BK to compare that with. Of course if anyone wants to remedy that let me know and I'll send you my address.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:07 am

I can confirm that BK has not taken any TN jackets apart. The measurements of the #517 jacket that was on loan were actually off. BK studied the jacket and made corrected patterns in accordance with previous notes and with the measurements of 000/888.

Let me please add that BK has corrected the issue of the construction of the hand warmer pocket. During development of the jacket we received some feedback that the TN jacket hand warmer pocket construction wasn't very good in relation to Wested jackets and that there was a crack (gap) inside the patch pocket (between the handwarmer pocket and jacket shell) big enough that you could lose a small coin in it. We identified the problem, improved the pattern and corrected it. Actually, to make that pocket with less gap in there requires not only a good pattern but also very special skills on the part of the machinist.

CM · Post by CM » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:26 am

ShanghaiJack wrote:I am afraid I disagree, sort of anyway. I don't think the jacket can adequately be described as baggy or as fitted. When the jacket is zipped up, for example in all the scenes in the Raven Bar it looks very fitted, however when it is not zipped it looks super baggy. I don't think that it looks that baggy in the photo you posted. I think it mainly has to do with the way HF is standing. My TN does the exact same thing. I think the baggy/fitted appearance of the jacket is due to the quirky design of the pattern, the off the shoulders, the yoke and armholes, the way it constantly rides back on your shoulders, the size of the collar, all of these things work together to contribute to the appearance of the jacket looking baggy or fitted depending on how it is being worn at any given scene.

Yes, you're right. In all other shots from the film the jacket seems just very roomy and it seems oversized in all the other shots.

ShanghaiJack · Post by **ShanghaiJack** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:31 am

trdaggers wrote:I just weighed the TN and the Kelso. The TN was a pound heavier.

afalzon wrote: During development of the jacket we received some feedback that the TN jacket hand warmer pocket construction wasn't very good in relation to Wested jackets and that there was a crack (gap) inside the patch pocket (between the handwarmer pocket and jacket shell) big enough that you could lose a small coin in it.

Well, Gailen, now we know why your TN is a pound heavier than your BK. All of your spare change has been disappearing through that crack in the handwarmer pocket. Heck, you probably have enough coins hidden inside of it to buy another jacket!

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:35 am

...Tony just wanted you to hit the jackpot ever once and awhile...just pull the arm down!

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:34 am

ShanghaiJack wrote:
trdaggers wrote:I just weighed the TN and the Kelso. The TN was a pound heavier.

afalzon wrote: During development of the jacket we received some feedback that the TN jacket hand warmer pocket construction wasn't very good in relation to Wested jackets and that there was a crack (gap) inside the patch pocket (between the handwarmer pocket and jacket shell) big enough that you could lose a small coin in it.
Well, Gailen, now we know why your TN is a pound heavier than your BK. All of your spare change has been disappearing through that crack in the handwarmer pocket. Heck, you probably have enough coins hidden inside of it to buy another jacket!

I carry no coins only big bills.

Gailen