Frustrated by leather stretch!

[folkprophet]

So I'm working on cutting strands for my first kangaroo leather whip and then stretching the leather. The stretch is killing me. I have sections where I end up with as much as 3 mm difference in the width after stretching it. I know I'm not into the center of the hide yet, and I undertand it will get stronger, but still. It's quite frustrating. I don't want to have to discard all this leather. Grr.

[riku1914]

It'll be even more than that in some areas, especially when it's wider strands. When cutting out bellies, I cut my strands 1.4 times wider than they need to be, but in certain areas of the hide I have to do it a lot wider. There's pockets just before you get to the top of the hide ( the neck area ) that are extremely stretchy. As long as you cut wide enough here, they turn out fine, it's just being able to read the hide properly that gets you there.

When I'm on the inside of the hide, cutting out my overlay, knots, etc. , I cut my leather 1.2-1.3 times wider then I need them to be, just depending on the hide and other circumstances.

You can probably save the strands you already cut for knots, wrist loops, and more. Or you could just add a few more strands and do a higher plait count for that belly.

[Canuck Digger]

Since this is your first kangaroo leather whip, you should expect a steep learning curve, especially if you're doing it on your own.

Neck and belly are very stretchy indeed and you can reduce some of that by cutting out some of the more stretchy bits prior to cutting a strand. Cut a test strand and stretch it out and see where the stretch occurs, this will help you "read" a skin. To this effect, a cool trick I picked up (I'm not sure but I think it may have been from Louie Foxx but don't quote me on this) is to turn the hide on the flesh side and with a ball-point pen, make a vertical line right down the middle of the hide from the top of the neck to the bottom of the tail (or what's left of it). Then starting at the bottom (so on the left side of the center line at the tail end), make a mark that starts at the edge of the hide and goes inward and points toward the tail. Make a few of these marks I make seven or eight) and every time you make a new set of marks, draw as many lines as there are sets, so if you are on the first you make one line, two for the second set of lines, three for the next etc. Make them long enough that when you cut a strand across it, you will be able to see all the lines. The purpose of this is to be able to locate with some measure of accuracy the stretchy areas once you've cut your test strand and stretched it out, because unless you are familiar with kangaroo, it can be a little daunting at first to figure out where the stretch starts and ends, and this is a really simple and good tool to do this, at least at first.
Like this:

When this is done, trim the hide of all its ragged edges, starting at one leg up around the neck, to the other leg. This will let you cut a strand from one leg to the other in a smooth fashion. Don't make your curves too tight or it will be impossible to straighten out during stretching and will likely break. The more often you cut over a curve, the tighter that curve will become and it will happen from time-to-time that you will need to adjust the radius of a curve by cutting a smoother curve from it. Naturally this removes a fair amount of leather and requires space so when the last strand of a set has been cut over a curve that now seems too tight, fix the curve as soon as you can so you are not stuck having to fix it when you next come around it and are short on space to make a smooth radius.

What I do next is to circle every hole and scratch or bite marks on the hide and try to report those marks on both sides of the hide. This is so that when you are cutting your strands, you don't become surprised by a scratch and have no way to cut around it without making a sharp turn which would pretty much unsure your strand will break during plaiting if not stretching. I know I used to concentrate so much that I would develop a sort of tunnel vision and it's happened that I noticed scars cumming up too late. The whole point of this exercise of course is to make sure you do not cut a strand across a scar or a bite mark or anything that might weaken your strand, because this WILL break it while you are pulling on it later on... The only time I would even consider cutting across a scar/bite mark is if it is over a keeper and only if this is a portion of the keeper that is not next to the start of the strands (because it could start a tear) and/or if it isn't going to be visible, so not a portion of the keeper that will be folded over the end knot foundation (not so much for strength issues here-there is barely any stress on the leather at this point, but because it's ugly and unprofessional-looking).

If you are using a dry hide, slap some leather dressing on both sides and let it soak in before you do any cutting (naturally, apply leather dressing AFTER having made all your pen marks...). Stretch your strands well before you do anything else-no point getting to the point of plaiting if your strands haven't been properly tested and are able to withstand the pull of plaiting: a well-plaited whip should be rock-hard to the touch and very dense. If it isn't, when the leather relaxes it will be too loose and you will have what is referred to as the wet-noodle syndrome, not good. At first you are better to cut wide and re-size when everything has been well-stretched than to wind up with a bunch of uneven strands that would require too much re-sizing to be of any use.

A simple way to measure your whip to know how wide your strands should be, is to measure the circumference of the whip and multiply that by 1.5. Measure the core every 6" and report that at every 9" on your overlay: if your total width of all your strands (for a given layer that is) is one-and-a-half times the circumference of the core, then it will take you 1.5 times the length of the core in strands. Add a bit more in length to be sure you don't come up short and a bit more in width to compensate for the overlapping due to the skiving and the stretching that happens during plaiting and you'll have a good coverage.

Let us know how it goes. Take pics as you go along if you can, this will help.
Good luck and sorry for the novel-length post.

Franco

[folkprophet]

Thank you both. I don't mind the novels. The more you learn, as they say.

Plaited the first belly. I asked permission to do a build log like riku1914 did and if I get the go ahead I'll start that and put my pictures in there (been taking pics every step, etc...)

Thanks again.

[Canuck Digger]

I would also suggest you pick-up the following books: "How to make whips" by the Late Ron Edwards, "Whips and Whipmaking" by David Morgan, and "Braiding Fine Leather" also by David Morgan. While there is no one book that covers every single aspect of whipmaking, these can be considered as the basic works from which you can apply techniques in a working manner.

Bernie Wojcicki also has many amazing how-to videos on Youtube and David Morgan has a few as well. Louie Foxx at http://www.bullwhips.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a great site where he posts his whipmaking adventures and it's worth the gander for sure.

All of this put together will give you a good start and should answer many questions.
regards,


Franco

[folkprophet]

I would also suggest you pick-up the following books: "How to make whips" by the Late Ron Edwards, "Whips and Whipmaking" by David Morgan, and "Braiding Fine Leather" also by David Morgan. While there is no one book that covers every single aspect of whipmaking, these can be considered as the basic works from which you can apply techniques in a working manner.

Bernie Wojcicki also has many amazing how-to videos on Youtube and David Morgan has a few as well. Louie Foxx at http://www.bullwhips.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; has a great site where he posts his whipmaking adventures and it's worth the gander for sure.

All of this put together will give you a good start and should answer many questions.
regards,


Franco

Already got the Ron Edwards. Was my first purchase. And watched all the Bernie vids. will look into the others. Thanks.

[riku1914]

Hey Franco, I've always heard people say that the neck is stretchy on roo hides, but on every single hide I've used, the neck area has been very firm, like the tail. It's on the belly that's stretchy, and just before the neck there's a VERY stretchy pocket of leather, no more than 3 or 4 inches long. My question, why do people say this? I don't see how I could have just, by coincidence, gotten hides that weren't stretchy in the neck, because I have gone through quite a few hides, from three different people ( packer, tandy, murphy, not sure where the second two get them tanned though ).

folkprophet, definitely do what franco said about measuring every 6 inches and finding the strand width. It will take a long time at first, but eventually it won't, and I'll tell you why. Eventually, you'll be making whips that you know to have a very even taper. So when you taper yours strands ( when you know everything works out to be even or mostly even ) you won't have to measure every 6 inches. You only have to measure the start ( because the end width is pretty much always the same ) , then do the math to know that every "x" amount you'll need to taper the strand by "y" mm. It makes cutting much quicker and easier, but you have to start out by doing what franco mentioned.

[trdaggers]

After reading this it sounds like these guys making these whips to sell earn their money!

Gailen

[riku1914]

It definitely takes longer, and is more difficult then a lot of people seem to think. A lot of people ( not saying you do ) seem to think that braiding a whip is easy and it takes no time to learn. Boy do they learn something when they first try!

[Canuck Digger]

Riku,
I think there is a confusion between the term used (neck) and the reality (that small area you talk about). It IS the neck, we are talking about the same thing, but I think referred to in different ways. All of this to say there are generally speaking, two distinct areas on roo hides that have a lot of stretch; the neck and the belly. It sometimes happens however, that one merges with the other so it can appear as one single very large area. I've always found that small part of the tail to be very firm though as well as thicker than the rest... In any even, regardless of how one defines the stretchy areas, this technique will allow you to locate it easily and allow you to remove the more extreme bits and let you cut the rest accordingly. I tend to be a little more vicious in the amount of stretchy leather I cut out than most, because I tend to pull very hard and don't want ANY parts of my whips to be weaker than the rest, so it usually ends up costing me more in leather, but on the flip side, I have very solid results. But that is probably because I am not as good at cutting as others so this is my work-around solutions. I think if someone is very adept at gauging the hide and cutting wider where need be to compensate, you can probably end up with similar results, just from a different approach.

Gailen, yes most whipmakers earn every dollar and then some! The vast majority of whipmakers have a price range that is very close from one to the other, and these are the people who make a smaller profit margin on their work. People often forget that for artisans everything they need to pay for in their life must come from that price tag. From the car repair to health insurance plan to retirement fund, college fund for the kids, the mortgage, the house, food and clothes and let's not forget good old taxes... Also, with very few exceptions, most well-known whipmakers produce a very honest product that in no way cuts corners. I think if you manage to tear one away from his hook long enough to have a chat, you'll find they cut corners on everything BUT the whip's quality. It's really a craft that is a poster child for a honest pay for an honest day's work.
Cheers,

Franco

[riku1914]

Ok, I figured that was the case, that what is often referred to as the neck was more or less a vauge term, or that it isn't what it's commonly referred to as.

As you know franco, I plait super tight like you do as well, and I trim off as little of the hide as possible before cutting strands out. I guess I've gotten pretty good at reading the hide ( I haven't cut out a test stretch strand since my third or fourth whip ) because my strands turn out very even on my bellies.

The only whip makers that cut corners tend to be the ones that sell all their whips on ebay ( you guys know of a few I'm sure ). It's not difficult to see the difference between those and a well made whip

folkprophet, that'll be cool if you're able to do a buildlog, I'm sure it will help!

[folkprophet]

Ok, I figured that was the case, that what is often referred to as the neck was more or less a vauge term, or that it isn't what it's commonly referred to as.

As you know franco, I plait super tight like you do as well, and I trim off as little of the hide as possible before cutting strands out. I guess I've gotten pretty good at reading the hide ( I haven't cut out a test stretch strand since my third or fourth whip ) because my strands turn out very even on my bellies.

The only whip makers that cut corners tend to be the ones that sell all their whips on ebay ( you guys know of a few I'm sure ). It's not difficult to see the difference between those and a well made whip

folkprophet, that'll be cool if you're able to do a buildlog, I'm sure it will help!

Yeah...I'm not getting a reply on it. I wonder if I sent the PM wrong. Hmm.

[riku1914]

Who did you send it to and how long ago? Mods do have lives outside the forum It can take time to get responses sometimes.

[Marhala]

I think one other thing you can do is, try to stretch the leather before cutting it to see which part of the edges stretches the most. Franco has already shown you which parts stretch the most in your diagram. David Morgan has a very nice diagram showing those areas too.

I'd go with Jeremy about trying to save the most leather you can, because in the end, whipmaking generates TOO MUCH waste! With this, I'm not saying Franco is doing wrong. Go to David Morgan's videos, and you'll see he does exactly that: he discards the stretchy areas before cutting. I prefer to cut the wider strands from the bellies along these areas (with the compensation for stretch needed).

If the hide is flat and nice, you'd have to cut the strands around 2-2.5 times wider around these stretchy areas. If you have already stretched them, you'll have to cut around 1.5 times, at the most. The test strand is a good way to start and predict this stretch.

And don't overthink about cutting. Let's get real: your first roo whip won't be the best, although it is good you try to do as much as you can to get it the best made possible. Cut wider and longer, as you can resize, as Louie says.

One other thing is: stretch the strands as much as possible, even if they break. Most will tell you it is better to break the strand before plaiting, than later. I tended to put that recommendation aside, but it is better to cut a new strand and "patch" the overlay, belly, etc. than splicing (I hate splicing, that's why I'm telling you). Paul Nolan gave me that recommendation and it works wonders.

Aldo.

[riku1914]

2-2.5 seems like quite a lot. I've had some really stretchy hides but I've never had to go 2 times as much...

Also, what he said about stretching it beforehand can be a good habit. If and when I do that, I don't stretch it a lot, I just run my hands along the side of the hide, pulling every couple inches to find where the worst areas are.

[Marhala]

2-2.5 seems like quite a lot. I've had some really stretchy hides but I've never had to go 2 times as much...

Also, what he said about stretching it beforehand can be a good habit. If and when I do that, I don't stretch it a lot, I just run my hands along the side of the hide, pulling every couple inches to find where the worst areas are.

Jeremy, believe me! I've had to cut 2-2.5times as wide! These strands were cut from a giant hide, about 100dm2. Can't tell for sure if that had anything to do. On the first batch of hides I ever bought, I don't remember they were as stretchy, but again, I didn't measure how much they stretched. I read once at the APWA site that the belly of females stretches a lot. Perhaps that hide was a female one?

1.5 times seems to be a good average for the stretchiest parts, though.

I do stretch the flanks the most along the perimeter of the hide, even though you end up with a wavy perimeter. They still have to be stretched some more before resizing and paring the strands.

[folkprophet]

2-2.5 seems like quite a lot. I've had some really stretchy hides but I've never had to go 2 times as much...

Also, what he said about stretching it beforehand can be a good habit. If and when I do that, I don't stretch it a lot, I just run my hands along the side of the hide, pulling every couple inches to find where the worst areas are.

Jeremy, believe me! I've had to cut 2-2.5times as wide! These strands were cut from a giant hide, about 100dm2. Can't tell for sure if that had anything to do. On the first batch of hides I ever bought, I don't remember they were as stretchy, but again, I didn't measure how much they stretched. I read once at the APWA site that the belly of females stretches a lot. Perhaps that hide was a female one?

1.5 times seems to be a good average for the stretchiest parts, though.

I do stretch the flanks the most along the perimeter of the hide, even though you end up with a wavy perimeter. They still have to be stretched some more before resizing and paring the strands.

I had one section on one of my first strands that was at least half as wide as I had wanted it after the fact. I'm on a business trip right now, but I can't wait to get back home tomorrow and mess around with it some more and keep learning, etc... I'm addicted pretty bad. Strange sort of addiction.

[folkprophet]

....
And don't overthink about cutting. Let's get real: your first roo whip won't be the best, although it is good you try to do as much as you can to get it the best made possible. Cut wider and longer, as you can resize, as Louie says....

I refuse to acknowledge reality!

Ha ha.

[Marhala]

....
And don't overthink about cutting. Let's get real: your first roo whip won't be the best, although it is good you try to do as much as you can to get it the best made possible. Cut wider and longer, as you can resize, as Louie says....

I refuse to acknowledge reality!

Ha ha.

I wrote that, because I froze for a second when I was about to cut my first kangaroo hide, and thought: "What if it doesn't come up as I expect it...?" I then realized that it wouldn't, and even though I did many mistakes (strand width, many broken strands and much splicing), it was fairly shaped. The second one got even better and was sold within hours! The owner said he was very pleased with the quality.

Aldo.

[folkprophet]

....
And don't overthink about cutting. Let's get real: your first roo whip won't be the best, although it is good you try to do as much as you can to get it the best made possible. Cut wider and longer, as you can resize, as Louie says....

I refuse to acknowledge reality!

Ha ha.

I wrote that, because I froze for a second when I was about to cut my first kangaroo hide, and thought: "What if it doesn't come up as I expect it...?" I then realized that it wouldn't, and even though I did many mistakes (strand width, many broken strands and much splicing), it was fairly shaped. The second one got even better and was sold within hours! The owner said he was very pleased with the quality.

Aldo.

I was scared to cut the first one too. But I just took a deep breath and plunged in.

Thanks!

[Canuck Digger]

Well, you know how you get to Carnegie Hall don't you?

[The Intercept]

Well, you know how you get to Carnegie Hall don't you?

Yeah, Mapquest it.

Peace

T~I

[folkprophet]

Arrrggghhh!

Okay, so I just gave into the fact that I'll have to waste some leather *sigh*. So I'm cutting my strands bigger to then stretch them out and then cut them to the proper size. But I'm breaking strands when stretching them all the time!! And it's always on the thicker strands. Seems like the wider they are, the easier they break when I'm stretching them. It's getting really frustrating.

[riku1914]

It's probably because you're cutting them around corners too tight, that's the only reason bigger strands would break easier. There's a reason we cut the bellies from the outside of the hide. One, you have more room to cut very wide strands, and two, because the leather is so stretchy there, the super wide strands can straighten out properly.

That's why it's not a good idea to cut bellies from the center of the hide ( like what you have leftover from a previous whip ). Save that for knots, part of an overlay, or if it's somewhat small, just trash it.

[Canuck Digger]

As Riku said but I would also add, have you taken out the stretchy and weak bits out of your hide? Because if they are still in there, it's unlikely that they would pass the stretch test... To wit, I refer you back to my diagram...

[folkprophet]

As Riku said but I would also add, have you taken out the stretchy and weak bits out of your hide? Because if they are still in there, it's unlikely that they would pass the stretch test... To wit, I refer you back to my diagram...

These were outer plait strands from more into the center of the hide. The wider part being about 13mm (to be stretched and then cut down to 8.5 (ish) mm afterwards. So... ??? I have broken some that were for the inner plaits and thus much wider, and probably on the turns, and probably on the stretchier part (though usually not...the stretchy parts stretch...these breaks are more like it just pops in half) but in this case it was none of those things, but I broke 2 strands stretching them.

[riku1914]

It's probably just that they are too wide for the turns you are going around. Try and keep track next time , maybe by a pen mark or something, where the turns are on the strands and if they break there that's the problem.