Thickness of the Raiders movie jacket

CM · Post by CM » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:15 pm

I know a lot of people here think that the jacket looks thin in the film. I'm on the fence regarding this. Didn't _ say that the one he handled from the film was a more robust leather than what Wested was using then (2000, I think)?

The jacket Tony saw, was that fairy robust too? I get the feeling it was. The floppy drape we see is surely about the jacket being soft and distresssed.

Any other views on this?

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:48 pm

tonys shrunken lamb is not super thin..I always thought Wested's lambskins were too thin, even before Tony came out of the closet. The jacket definitely drapes but its not a pillow-y cloak hanging off Indy's shoulders (like most wested's I've seen). I think the lamb definitely has some weight, not alot of around the same weight as tony's lambs...just my opinion though..Also Im sure the distressing done on the production (soaking it, weathering it, scraping it with a wire brush) does beat it down some...

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:25 pm

The title of the post implies one "Raiders" jacket. There were quite a few and some were thin and some were a thicker. When Indy's on the horse about to ride after the truck, that jacket's collar is blowing in the wind and the jacket puffs like a windbreaker - nearly identical to Wested's. The jacket in the Imam's house looks a good bit thicker, maybe more like the goat offered by Wested or G&B; just depends what you prefer.

I guess that's why it's such an enigma. You can find a jacket that fits your own notion of what you like based on different scenes.

I think most were pretty thin and a couple were thicker... But then, I wasn't there either

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:02 am

Tibor wrote: The jacket in the Imam's house looks a good bit thicker, maybe more like the goat offered by Wested or G&B; just depends what you prefer.

It's an illusion. The raiders jacket were pretty thin IMHO.

If you look at the Imam jacket you think, thats pretty thick jacket. especially when you see him sitting down by Imam but look again when Sallah claps him on the shoulders. look how extremly thin the leather is. It acts exactly like my Todds standard.

Jm2c

Tibor · Post by **Tibor** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:48 am

I could buy that... In general, the softness of the lambskin gives the illusion of thickness.

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:18 am

In the good old days when men were men and only shaved on Saturday nights before hitting the Town there was a tannery at Todmorden in Yorkshire, England called Turn Leathers.
The leather they produced was lambskin, not the soft supple skin of today but the thick stiff leather that could almost stand by itself in the corner.
The tanning was done in giant wooden vats and the skin pegged out to dry, not modern chemicals but oil from whales (now banned).
This tannery used to contract tan the english lamb/ sheep skins supplied by us and it was this leather was used in ALL of the Indy films, with the exception of a few TOD's we did not make.
Sadly Turn Leathers went to the wall and current tanners only have the modern machinery and systems designed to produce super fine skins, so we struggle to get back to that look.
Cheers
Peter

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:50 am

That quote is what Peter said about the LC jacket if I'm not wrong. He said the same to me on the phone too when we spoke about a possible LC jacket.

Peter has said and to me personally that the leather for the raiders jacket was a fairly thin skin as they didn't want to get in the way for his gun and whip.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:09 pm

Well, im sure "thin" is such a relative term. The only thing I can offer is that my Nowak drapes and more importantly, "bunches" up just like the film jacket, its its a pretty substantial weight...

Indiana Strones · Post by **Indiana Strones** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:12 pm

He said that this was the skin used in all 3 movies.

it was this leather was used in ALL of the Indy films, with the exception of a few TOD's we did not make

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:13 pm

Peter told me the same thing years ago, Eric, and before LC even came out, so no...he was talking about the Raiders leather tanner.

Regards Michaelson

CRB · Post by **CRB** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:44 pm

After having recently bought Wested's shrunken lamb, there is absolutely no question in my mind whatsoever that shrunken lamb was what was used in the film (it has the mild shine and the grain for example). All those USW, normal Westeds, G&B lambs are all lovely lambs, but the type of lamb used for fashion jackets and not what I see when I watch Raiders.

I think that it's easy to get confused with thickness compared with weight. I dont think the thickness of the normal lamb and the shrunken lamb is any different in thickness (i.e. in terms of mm) but the shrunken lamb is certainly denser, hence heavier that the normal lamb. That quote from Peter above appears to pretty much confirms this.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:47 pm

Which is why I cam't wait to see more pics of your jacket!!

fateoftheduck · Post by **fateoftheduck** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:14 pm

CRB wrote: I dont think the thickness of the normal lamb and the shrunken lamb is any different in thickness (i.e. in terms of mm) but the shrunken lamb is certainly denser, hence heavier that the normal lamb.

That's interesting, because you said your shrunken lamb was like thin goat and described exactly the qualities I find in my goatskin Hero. I have Heros in both seal brown goat and seal brown lamb, and to me the lamb seems denser than the goat. The difference between them I feel is that the lamb is soft to touch (buttery) and smooth, whereas the goat has that papery (you said cardboard) quality and is more textured. As I was told recently in another thread, variations in the hide used for two different jackets make it hard to say definitely which hide is thicker/heavier than another.

CM · Post by CM » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:38 pm

I think there is something in the idea of density rather than thickness. A 2.5oz goat is robust, but the same in much of the lamb I've seen is very light.

I did have a shrunken lamb generic bomber jacekt in the 1980's that was very thick and dense. I think it must have been close to 3oz leather and it had a hardness to the surface. Way prefer that to the buttery stuff.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:24 am

the answer to this is very simple

Nearly all the lambskin used for garments is thickness 0.8mm
Can be 7.0mm or 6.0mm also in some cases. The thinner goes to the most expensive stuff.

The dino leather used by Nowak, is not for garments, it's for leather goods.
Ladies' bags and such.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:55 am

afalzon wrote:the answer to this is very simple

Nearly all the lambskin used for garments is thickness 0.8mm
Can be 7.0mm or 6.0mm also in some cases. The thinner goes to the most expensive stuff.

The dino leather used by Nowak, is not for garments, it's for leather goods.
Ladies' bags and such.

What bit is simple? I'm not sure you finished your idea. Are you saying that the Indy jacket appears thin becasue it uses 0.8 thickness. By the way, what's your source for the above?

As it happens, Goodwear leather says it's goat is 1mm which is 2.5 oz goat, weight calculated in 1 feet squares. Of course goat is a stronger hide...

I like the idea of bag leather ending up as a jacket. Much better that that &*%$ fashion leather you see on overpriced designer junk.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:02 pm

some designers are now switching to using "premium “luggage-brown” leather" on varsity jacket sleevs as well as constructing entire jackets out of them. I personally think the Nowak lamb can be used for either (not specifically designed just for luggage) but thats IMO.

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:20 pm

Didn't one or two members here have problems with the Tony's dino hide tearing rather easily despite its apparent thickness? If so, that would surely make it a poor leather choice for bags and luggage.

theman · Post by **theman** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:17 pm

I love the hide on my Nowak Raiders Shrunken Lamb, and think it's a great middle ground between thick/thinness, texture and all between the various jackets in ROLA... But I will say my first Todd's Costumes is still one of the most accurate jackets I've had, right up there with the Nowak but without the added texture, and certainly blew in the wind just as I see when watching Raiders. Watching friends tumble around reenacting various Raiders scenes, the my Nowak Raiders and my early Todd's standard recreated the way the film jacket moved the best out of the various Indy jackets I've had in hand from various vendors. I am really drawn toward how the Todd's standard thinness flows, and still contend that is one of the best Raiders jackets out there due to that thinness along with a very solid pattern.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:52 pm

That is the difficult thing with the Nowak I just aquired.....It is hefty. And yet, in all the pics I have been playing with and video, it looks amazingly screen accurate. BUT it also assures me that the film jacket was much thinner. I base this on how it moves and acts more than how it looks. The Imam shoulder grab is a good example, the truck chase, the plane fight and the opening sequence. the jacket just has a certain flow to its movements and drape that you can`t get with a standard thick jacket. And while my Nowak looks incredible in pics, it moves kinda stiff in fluidity.

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Over at filmjackets we have been having this discussion as well. As Rick, the moderator, consisently points out, density (apart from thickness) also plays a factor as well. Just thought I would throw that out there...

Post by **Michaelson** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:36 pm

Tanners call it 'tensile strength'.

Regards! Michaelson

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:18 pm

I personally think the Nowak lamb can be used for either (not specifically designed just for luggage) but thats IMO.

The tanners made it for leather goods. I have dealt with tanners that don't want to sell if you tell them it's going for garments.
When you say "for garment use" to them immediately they think "thin smooth lambskin, or exotic leathers"

Are you saying that the Indy jacket appears thin becasue it uses 0.8 thickness. By the way, what's your source for the above?

Everybody in the business knows that when we're talking lambskin for garments it's 0.7-0.8mm. The market is my source and my experience in the business.

As it happens, Goodwear leather says it's goat is 1mm which is 2.5 oz goat, weight calculated in 1 feet squares. Of course goat is a stronger hide...

Forget about goat. Goat is 0.9-1.0mm thickness. The 0.1mm sounds small but makes a BIG difference in garments.

There are many things that make a leather suitable for garments. It's the way it's tanned... they are supposed to adjust it's softness, its resistance to the elements, how the color will fade or not fade at all.

Let me tell you about Goodwear. Goodwear was using upholstery leather to make his jackets. Yes that's right. He was using leathers that were destined to become vintage style couches. The reason why? It's simple. Because it was impossible to find leather for garments with the qualities he was looking for, i.e. heavy grain with wrinkles, color fading with wear etc. The leather for garments in the industry is more or less standard to what fashion dictates.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:47 pm

afalzon wrote: Everybody in the business knows that when we're talking lambskin for garments it's 0.7-0.8mm. The market is my source and my experience in the business.

As a scholar, I'm a bit skeptical of such generalizations.

How many Indy jackets in lambskin from Wested, U.S. Wings, Gibson & Barnes, and/or Tony Nowak have you personally compared?

Best wishes,
Nebraska Schulte

CM · Post by CM » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:55 pm

afalzon wrote:
I personally think the Nowak lamb can be used for either (not specifically designed just for luggage) but thats IMO.
The tanners made it for leather goods. I have dealt with tanners that don't want to sell if you tell them it's going for garments.
When you say "for garment use" to them immediately they think "thin smooth lambskin, or exotic leathers"

Are you saying that the Indy jacket appears thin becasue it uses 0.8 thickness. By the way, what's your source for the above?
Everybody in the business knows that when we're talking lambskin for garments it's 0.7-0.8mm. The market is my source and my experience in the business.

As it happens, Goodwear leather says it's goat is 1mm which is 2.5 oz goat, weight calculated in 1 feet squares. Of course goat is a stronger hide...
Forget about goat. Goat is 0.9-1.0mm thickness. The 0.1mm sounds small but makes a BIG difference in garments.

There are many things that make a leather suitable for garments. It's the way it's tanned... they are supposed to adjust it's softness, its resistance to the elements, how the color will fade or not fade at all.

Let me tell you about Goodwear. Goodwear was using upholstery leather to make his jackets. Yes that's right. He was using leathers that were destined to become vintage style couches. The reason why? It's simple. Because it was impossible to find leather for garments with the qualities he was looking for, i.e. heavy grain with wrinkles, color fading with wear etc. The leather for garments in the industry is more or less standard to what fashion dictates.

You may be right, but with a glib tone like this and no evidence, I'm not sure what to make of your comments.

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:26 pm

This discussion is insidious. This morning I dreamed I was watching Raiders and I was paying really close attention to how the jacket draped and moved...

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:13 am

As a scholar, I'm a bit skeptical of such generalizations. How many Indy jackets in lambskin from Wested, U.S. Wings, Gibson & Barnes, and/or Tony Nowak have you personally compared?

What I told you is 'the general truth'. I don't need to compare jackets Wested, US Wings Gibson & Barnes and Tony Nowak to know this. All the companies you mentioned represent the 0.000001% of the market and I was talking about the whole market.

You may be right, but with a glib tone like this and no evidence, I'm not sure what to make of your comments.

I don't need to give any evidence. I saw your question and I thought better to answer it than leave you wondering.
As I said, eveybody in the leathers market knows this. It's not some kind of hidden information.
It's so easy to check as anyone you ask (from the market) will give you the same answer. It's the A and B in leathers for garments.

HDRnR · Post by **HDRnR** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:32 am

The Imam scene pretty much nails it when Sallah puts his hand on Indys shoulder. Its very thin. I have a Bantu that I gave a soaking treatment and it is exactly like the Imam jacket in that respect and it is very thin. The leather has crazy grain and is also hard on the surface. My other Bantu that is untreated has slightly thicker/softer leather and it does not behave like that at all.

Post by **Dr. Nebraska S.** » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:10 pm

Ah, but I doubt if a custom-designed costume made for wearing in desert locations fits the general truth of the main market.

That small percentage of manufacturers are also uniquely suited for providing some true insight to this unique jacket because they have actually had access to aspects of actual screen-used costume jackets from the film.

You might be correct: the general truth might apply here, too. But since this uniquely designed costume jacket fits in the less than 1% of leather jackets with regard to other details--such as the sleeve seams not matching up with the seams on the back where they meet--means that I think some measurements of some of these manufacturer's Raiders jackets might be even more helpful.

Best wishes,
Nebraska Schulte

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:18 pm

If the tanneries' standard thickness for lamb is 0.7-0.8mm
then if you want something else, thinner or thicker you have to make a special order
A special order means minimum 500 sq ft of leather, which a fast tannery if they don't have stock need 5 weeks to deliver.
If you have such time available when you make the costume jacket, then OK, otherwise you use whatever you have left from your previous order, which if you did not have any special reasons for deviating from the standard, would have been standard.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:20 pm

wow..I`m loving this debate.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:11 am

Not really a debate as such, but some interesting opinions. I personally have handled too many lamb jackets to accept that all jacket lamb is identical. Some jackets I've had we're stiff and thick, with a hard surface, others like butter, thin and soft. All from mainstream menswear stores.

The Indy Patto handled he described as thicker than the standard: that bit still interests me. And yes that was just one of them.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:07 am

Please note I am talking about what is the standard today and up to 10 years back,
The "standard" in 1981 could have been different, I have no idea, as I am not that long in the trade.

CM · Post by CM » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:29 am

_ wrote:How’d I miss this thread?

Yes – the hide on the Terry Leonard stunt jacket was definitely heavier than the lambskin Wested used in 2000. The later was ultra-thin, ultra-smooth, and uber-ultra-shiny. It really belonged on a mini-skirt rather than an Indiana Jones jacket. Looking back, they really looked terrible.

I’d compare the TL as well as the GL-hero to the 2.5oz horse and calf skins I’ve seen of late. Light but substantial.

Mini-skirt material. That's what we see these days. You saw a substantial hide. Thanks for the info.

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:44 am

Thanks for the info
2.5 oz is 1mm thickness.
You have to be SUPER experienced with leathers to be able to tell the thickness exactly by just touching a jacket.

To measure it exactly you would need a gauge like this

and a spot in the jacket where you can see the back of the leather

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:12 am

familiar?

Indiego Jones · Post by **Indiego Jones** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:26 am

afalzon wrote:familiar?

The kind of leather TN used to offer as SL.
Thick, heavy.

CM · Post by CM » Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:47 pm

afalzon wrote:familiar?

Sorry, but that side strap isn't even accurate!

ReturningSon · Post by **ReturningSon** » Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:47 pm

Ok, didnt really pose it right and dont know if it adds anything but in this pic

I see this (Nowak striated, pretty substantial lamb)

vs Tods Standard (super light windbreaker lamb)

Look at the folds in the front toward the zipper...the more substantial lamb has better "folds, creases"...but thats IMO

afalzon · Post by **afalzon** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:45 am

The hero in George office is not as substantial as the stuff Tony used

Have you seen it?
Is it more like this?

indyexpat · Post by **indyexpat** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:47 pm

I just spotted this thread and glad you guys noticed this too.

I ordered a Todd jacket as it looked right with correct weight and was put off other jackets that to me looked too puffy. Sadly my Todd jacket didn't fit me (currently listed in the bizarre) and I am back to finding another.

Wested is the original, according to them, but even they have various types. Cowhide, lambskin, pigskin.. I think the type of leather greatly affects the thickness and flexibility of the jacket.

To me the original Raiders look a quite thin and moves well. It's not a duffle cost after all butt an action adventure coat. What's the verdict on this subject regarding:

Weight

Leather type

CM · Post by CM » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:45 am

indyexpat wrote:.

To me the original Raiders look a quite thin and moves well. It's not a duffle cost after all butt an action adventure coat. What's the verdict on this subject regarding:

Weight

Leather type

We have been advised the film jacket was lamb. There is no other verdict available only people's opinion. _ may be the only one here who has ever see the costume jacket.

Gorak · Post by **Gorak** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:05 am

wow, _...that is like the best summary ever of what you have always been trying to tell us. That should be in the Indygear Jacket writeup page...just like that. No room for suppositions! I like it! Reading it, I felt like when I ask too many questions and my teacher takes a deep breath and tells me "what is" in a kindly way all while holding himself back from wanting to smack me upside the head!

Texan Scott · Post by **Texan Scott** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:16 am

Two of my favorite jacket scenes in the movie, the temple entrance scene and the one with him riding on the front bumper of the truck, leather flapping in the breeze. When he holds up the map to the light, you can see a cuff that is substantially thick, pointing to what would appear to be at least a medium weight skin. Compare that to some of the others in the film, and you could safely opt for either a heavier weight or a lighter one, depending on your preference.

Post by **Mike** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:19 am

_ wrote:I realize the mods may need to edit me…

Just keepin' the peace...

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:05 am

Uh, maybe.....

HANSOLOJONES · Post by **HANSOLOJONES** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:27 pm

oooops

Ravenswood · Post by **Ravenswood** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:23 pm

I was never on the set for any of the filming of any of the Indy movies, and I have never had the privilege of being in the same room as one or more of the screen used jackets, so I'm just going by what other people said/are saying.

Illinois James · Post by **Illinois James** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:26 pm

I'd never sell a jacket if I really liked to wear it, regardless of provenance or if I thought it wasn't 'the one'. All we're ever going to have are approximations of a jacket used in a movie; well, at lest that's all I'll ever have. Some are better copies than others.

I acquired a wrinkly shrunken lamb second hand, from Tony's first batch. I love the fit and feel. And it looks and drapes like what you see in Raiders, to me, anyway. I didn't like the excessive wrinkles, so I ironed the whole jacket, which helped smooth it out and kept the character. It's probably thicker than what most folks visualize the movie jacket being, though.

Without handling the Raiders jacket, as perhaps a very few here have done, it's just highly subjective to have anything but an opinion on this stuff.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:21 am

I think Tony's first batch of shrunken lamb was probably closer than what he later used. Mine was one of the earlier ones and was not anything like some of the sci-fi looking jackets he later produced. I think he ended up accomodating fan's calls for "striations" and specific areas of graininess, and gradually moved further away from what he originally felt was a close approximation of what he examined in person.