The Case for Three (or more) Hi Powers

[Oildale Jones]

I can't be the first to have noticed, but I can't find mention of it here or with a Google search. So I hereby present my case for Indy carrying two separate Hi Powers, both Inglis, as identified by the distinctive rear sight "hump." (Which makes sense, because Indy dropped his first HP into the fireplace at the Raven Bar.)

Exhibit A:


Muzzle flush with the end of the slide.

Exhibit B:


Barrel extends 1/4" or so past the end of the slide.

The defense rests (but remains open to suggestions).

[Indiana Jeff]

Would make sense from a movie making perspective in that the Bantu Wind scenes were shot on location (assuming they used the actual ship for the interior shooting) and the Nepal scenes were soundstages. The prop department would have likely sourced the guns locally.

Good catch.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Mountaineer]

Or, in the lower picture, someone checked the chamber and then eased the slide forward, and it didn't fully lock in place.

Somewhat easy to do, specially if the recoil spring was weaker.

[DeWayne]

Or, in the lower picture, someone checked the chamber and then eased the slide forward, and it didn't fully lock in place.

Somewhat easy to do, specially if the recoil spring was weaker.

This is what I was thinking. Even on my new Hi-Power, this is pretty easy to do.

[Indiana Jeff]

OK, assuming the slide isn't all the way forward, how dangerous would it be to fire the gun with the slide in this position? If Indy had decided to take a shot at the Nazis on the sub, would he risk loosing a hand?

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

[Oildale Jones]

If the slide was out of battery, it likely wouldn't fire at all due to a trigger disconnector. And even if the hammer did fall, the firing pin probably wouldn't reach the primer. (But I'm no Browning expert.)

[kwad]

I think you are right, there are two Hi-Powers.

If you have the book "The Complete Making of Indiana Jones", check out page 78.
There are two pictures, one of the Bapty and another of a FN Hi-Power.
There is a card in the picture that identifies the pistol as an FN and lists a requirement for 9mm blanks. This gun has a flat top slide with service sites and the muzzle IS flush with the slide.

However, the second picture you posted (the close up in the BW) shows that the gun is an Inglis made HP. It has the bump in the top of the slide where the rear sight is.

Good catch Oildale!!

[Oildale Jones]

kwad, I checked it out, and...very, very interesting.

One of the captions in the book mentions a running joke in the script about Indy losing and replacing guns, so it would be more accurate to say that Indy starts with an FN Hi Power, loses it in Nepal, and replaces it (somewhere) with an Inglis Hi Power. (Another difference between the two is that the Inglis has a lanyard ring and the FN does not.)

Feels like I'm manufacturing controversy where none existed, but still.

[Oildale Jones]

I scanned the page:



What's interesting (and confusing) about this picture is that this revolver has a/the broken grip panel.

[kwad]

Hmmmm, never noticed that before....

It looks to me as if the grips were replaced on the Bapty at some point.




Check out the "diamond" in the middle of the grip.
In the top picture, the "diamond" on the grip has a gouge in the wood and the screw ferrule is dented in at about the 7 o'clock position. In the second pic, no gouge and no dent (and well, no big stinkin' chip either!)

[Indiana Bond]

I remember reading somewhere that they had two Hi-Powers on set during the Raven Bar scene. One FN and one Inglis. The FN was used for scene blocking but the Inglis was the one used by Indy for filming. If you look at the Raven Bar HP in the photo below you can see both the sight hump and the half round indentation on the front right side of the slide. Only the Inglis had these features:




If you look at the Bantu Wind gun you also see the hump sight:




So in conclusion it seems that the correct "Hero" gun would be the Inglis. Yes he did loose the gun in the Raven Bar - but maybe not. He could have picked it up again before escaping the burning building - or maybe not. He could have gotten a replacement before the Bantu Wind! My point being that with the magic of movies it could go either way. But either way we definitely see Indy with an Inglis in both the Raven Bar and the Bantu Wind.

The chipped grip on the Bapty is also a mystery. We know the Stembridge had the chipped grip, but now we see pics of the Bapty with and without chipped grips. I have a feeling that for some reason people connected with the movies and people publishing these books are trying to "throw us off" for some reason. Changing things up and not being factual for some reason or another. Changing grips and displaying "stand in" Hi Powers. It must be some sort of conspiracy against COW!! The evil LucasBerg twins are trying to drive us MAD!!!!

[Oildale Jones]

Darn it, I hate going off half-cocked...

I went to the DVD and froze and zoomed every Raven Bar scene where I could get a look at the rear sight, and it's definitely humpy.

If you look at the Raven Bar HP in the photo below you can see both the sight hump and the half round indentation on the front right side of the slide. Only the Inglis had these features:

Yet here's an FN with the indentation:

I remember reading somewhere that they had two Hi-Powers on set during the Raven Bar scene. One FN and one Inglis. The FN was used for scene blocking but the Inglis was the one used by Indy for filming.

Now that I think about it, I'm back to my original theory: Two Inglis Hi-Powers, one with a slightly longer barrel. (Or the same one out of battery. This will require more research.)

But there's still the issue of the "making of" picture... You're right. It's a conspiracy. (Just keep telling yourself, "It's only a movie. It's not that important.")

[Indiana Bond]

OK, When trying to figure out these "movie mysteries" one must approach it in a systematic and logical manner. First the known facts must be determined.

Raven Bar
1. The screen shots show Indy with an Inglis in the Raven Bar.
2. The book shows a FN as the Raven Bar Hi-Power.
3. It has been stated that 2 Hi-Powers were available for use when filming the Raven Bar. One for blocking and one for filming.
Conclusion - There were 2 Hi-Powers, an Inglis and a FN, during filming of the Raven Bar scene.

Bantu Wind
1. Screen shots show Indy with an Inglis.
2. The Bantu Wind scenes were filmed on a different continent than the Raven Bar scene.
3. The Inglis used in the Bantu Wind would have been rented from a different company than the one used in the Raven Bar. Guns were props and did not travel with the filming crew from place to place especially if they were crossing international borders. They would be rented from local sources.
Conclusion - The Bantu Wind Inglis is a different Inglis than the one used in the Raven Bar.

Overall Conclusion - There where actually 3 different Hi-Powers available for use in the filming of ROTLA. A FN and an Inglis for Raven Bar and another Inglis for Bantu Wind. The title of this thread should actually be "The Case for Three Hi Powers"!!

Now to the discussion of the longer barrel that seems to be seen on the Bantu Wind gun.

1. There were no "long barrel" versions commonly made.
2. The gun may be out of battery as these prop guns did have weaker springs to accommodate the firing of blanks. However if you look closely, the slide is still lined up correctly with the frame and, if the gun was out of battery, you would see the slide sitting a bit further back on the frame exposing the tip of the barrel. Thus I do not think it's out of battery.
3. We have already determined from the analysis above that the Raven and Bantu Inglis where two different guns. It is expected that these two guns, even though being both Inglis's, could have had minor variations.
4. The longer barrel we seem to see on the Bantu Inglis may just be a shadow or perhaps this particular gun being a movie prop may have had a barrel designed to mount a silencer. These type of barrels are usually threaded on the inside and will have a short insert screwed into them when not mounted with a silencer. This insert could be the protrusion we see.
Conclusion - The point here is actually moot. The Bantu Inglis and the Raven Inglis could not have been the same gun as they would have come from two different rental sources. The fact that we may be seeing a physical difference between the two would and could be expected. Until we get the Hi-Def DVD and can do screen grabs to see if the barrel is actually longer or if its just a shadow, we cannot come to a definate answer to what we see as a longer barrel.

Finally you show the picture of a rare Hi-Power with the Inglis indent and the FN rear sight. There is no reason to believe that such an oddity would have been used on any of the sets. The facts presented above already lead us to the conclusion that an "odd" Hi-Power is not part of the equation.

So again to restate the overall conclusion the title of this thread should actually be "The Case for Three Hi Powers" because the facts show that there were at least three different Hi-Powers used in the filming of ROTLA.

Thanks again!

[Indiana Bond]

Further Barrel Analysis

I took a quick look at my FN Hi-Power and may have solved the mystery of the protruding barrel. The Hi-Powers do have a circular protrusion on the frame that surrounds the barrel at the nose of the gun. The protrusion you see below is not the barrel. It is the frame.




Depending on the angle that you look at the gun and the clarity of the photo, this protrusion can be easily seen or not.




Here is a comparison pic between my Hi-Power and the screen grabs.




You can see that simply because of the angle of the shot it can make it seem that there is a barrel protrusion or not. I think this may have solved the mystery!

Thanks again!

[Oildale Jones]

Finally you show the picture of a rare Hi-Power with the Inglis indent and the FN rear sight.

Only to refute your statement that "Only the Inglis had...both the sight hump and the half round indentation on the front right side of the slide." If you meant that HPs produced by Inglis were the only HPs to possess both those features, then my pictures prove otherwise. If you meant that only the Inglis they used on set and on screen had those features, and that the production-used FN did not, then never mind.

My theory on the protruding barrel is an aftermarket replacement. (I think it sticks out too far for it to be the slide or barrel bushing.) They did it on the revolver, so why not? (That said, I haven't come across pictures of any other HP with a barrel that protrudes so much.)

[Indiana Bond]

I guess what I meant was that in general only the Inglis had both the hump sight and slide indentation. There will always be exceptions that create the oddity. The picture you posted is the first Hi-Power I have ever seen like that.

The other possibility with the barrel is that it had some form of attachment on the barrel. I have read that, to make semi autos work with blanks, barrels often had to be blocked a bit so that there was enough built up energy to work the action. Until we get the Hi-Defs and if we can then see some better detail, we may never know.

The main point however was to address the main point of this thread that you created. You wanted to make the point that there were 2 different Hi-Powers used. One in the Raven Bar and another in the Bantu Wind. This is fact and you are right. However it is proven by the knowledge that the guns would have needed to be rented from two different sources and not by the possibility of two guns with different types of barrels.

The addition of the photos and story of the additional FN on set for the Raven Bar furthers the conclusion that there where actually at least three hi-powers. And there is still the possibility that they had a back-up gun on the Bantu Wind set also. So there may have been even more that the three we can proove were there.

Anyways, like always, this has been a fun excercise in movie detective work. These type of discussions only bring us closer to the real details and facts behind the story.

Thanks again!

[Oildale Jones]

Indeed. Thanks for bringing your expertise to the discussion.

[BrandonA18]

Hi all,

The Hi-Power photographed in the Making Of book was indeed used during filming. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33193&start=100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Best,
Brandon

[Oildale Jones]

Wow, thanks, Brandon! On the one hand, I wish I'd found that before I started posting. (Or you had swooped in earlier.) On the other, there's nothing like doing your own research. Doubling effort needlessly is what I do best!

[Indiana Bond]

Thanks Brandon for comming in and saving the day once again! I knew I had remembered reading something "official" about the two different guns on the set and the thread you presented was where I read it. I even made a post in that thread. It's always great to have an "insider" here with us on COW and your input is always much appreciated!

Thanks again!