Stetson raider II?

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:18 am

I was cruzing hat country for non indie hats and stumbled onto the stetson. Any one have any feedback or first hand experience?

WConly · Post by **WConly** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:59 am

I guess I don't quite understand your question. Are you referring to the Stetson's that were produced in the 80's and released as Indy-style hats (still made and called The Temple)? Or, are you referring to Stetson's in general? Or another particular style of Stetson hat? Help me out here. Thanks. W>

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:00 am

There are really only 3 factory-made Indy hats that are any good: the Akubra Federation IV, the Adventurebilt Henry and the Christy's Adventurer (ok, Christy's Swertford might be as well). If you're looking for an Indy hat, I'd go for one of them - unless you want to go custom, obviously. -M

Adirondack Jones · Post by **Adirondack Jones** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:31 am

I think the Henry is also factory made...

Post by **Michaelson** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:33 am

That what Mulceber said. It's the second one he mentioned.

Regards! Michaelson

Bigfoot · Post by **Bigfoot** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:08 am

I believe this is the one aog bliss is talking about; http://www.hatcountry.com/Mens+Dress+Ha ... a+Hat.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is a lot of money for a wool fedora.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:33 pm

Yeah, it's a wool version of the Temple.

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:56 pm

I know it's on the site somewhere but is there a progression in the lowest quality and the best quality Stetson Indy Hats? If so how do you identify the better hats?

Gailen

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:13 pm

The better hats are the promotional ones. Then there's the regular Temple, then the Raider II. Stetson doesn't really have multiple "Indy" hats. They have the Temple, which isn't really an "Indy" hat aside from the fact that it once carried the Indy name under license. It's a brown fedora with a dimensional brim but any similarity to the hat seen on screen ends there.

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:33 pm

Maybe I didn't make myself clear. You see the better hat with the black label and gold satin lining and then you see the cheap hat with no lining and just a white or black label.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:34 pm

trdaggers wrote:I know it's on the site somewhere but is there a progression in the lowest quality and the best quality Stetson Indy Hats? If so how do you identify the better hats?

Gailen

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, there is no progression. They're all pretty bad. Having or lacking a liner doesn't change the felt quality. When I made that list of the best factory-made Indy hats, that's also a list of the best factory hat manufacturers - Akubra, whoever AB contracted for the Henry, and Christy's. Stetson doesn't really make decent hats anymore, except perhaps cowboy hats. Those they might do all right. -M

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:25 pm

See that was good info! lol I own a few stetsons and like em. I was looking for something different entirely but I just had to ask and get a collective opinion. I havent really priced hats in awhile but the the hat with the feather WAS the one i was talking about.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:34 pm

trdaggers wrote:Maybe I didn't make myself clear. You see the better hat with the black label and gold satin lining and then you see the cheap hat with no lining and just a white or black label.

This makes things less clear, now I have no idea what you are talking about. The modern Temple comes with a brown liner and brown sweatband.

If you're talking about the variations of the licensed hat, there is no discernable difference in the quality of the felt that I know of, aside from the obvious inherent differences between fur and wool.

CaptainKatanga · Post by **CaptainKatanga** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:57 pm

I am a little unclear here also, I have an old Stetson (circa 1991), Officially licensed that is pure rabbit with a white liner. Is this just a version of the Temple?

Regards,
CaptainKatanga
P.S. I have since upgraded to a Penman pure rabbit Raiders, have worn it to work nearly every day and love it.

Kim Hoffman · Post by **Kim Hoffman** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:24 pm

The Stetson Raider's fedoras just aren't quite there, there being in a true vintage style, with a taller crown and the proper brim measurements. Penman does a great job, obviously. Stetson is missing an opportunity because there has been a demand for the reproduction of the older fedoras for decades. Alot of people share the same cinematic influences as Lucas and Spielberg, having been raised on a steady diet of classic films. Before Jones there was Cagney, Bogart, Garfield, Grant, and every other male star in the film business all sporting those fedoras. Even the few custom makers back then (1960's) didn't know how to make them, or possess the tools. Even Stetson's cowboy hats, while decent enough, fall short of idea. Their quality is good, but they're stuck in the modern, which for them was 1960.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:36 pm

They're right, Christy's, Akubra, Adventurebuilt. In that order, cheapest to highest.

I I've heard one or two gripes but not many about CHristy's. Akubra has a solid rep and I own two of them and Adventurebuilt is incredible.

I've heard lots of bad things about the stetsons and I've even owned some of those. Most notably I heard the dye used can wash out during rain, they tend to taper way too much as well. While you'll still receive Indy comments from people you will essentially not be wearing a real Indy Hat.

That being said.....,.I suppose it doesn't matter, as everyone has their personal taste. Some want exact SA which you can only get with custom. Some are okay with close enoughs like the akubra, etc and some just want a brown fedora no matter the specs. It's really fine either way cuz it's still in emulation of the guy in the hat.

Me, I'm okay with my Akubra, while not perfect by anymeans, its a solid and tough hat that will probably last me years.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:09 pm

Stetson isn't really missing out on the market, Indy fans just tend to overestimate what the market for vintage styled hats actually is. There was a Hatco rep (Hatco owns Stetson, Resistol, Dobbs, etc) on The Fedora Lounge who was talking about the numbers for the recently discontinued Nostaligia, which was Stetson's open crown model. They sold less than 300 of those hats per year. For an outfit like Stetson, that's peanuts. The market for hats, at least in the Stetson brand, is with their already blocked shapes. The same with Akubra, the Fed IV is a Hats Direct exclusive (i.e. not a wide market for it) and certainly isn't one of their top sellers either.

There is a market out there for vintage and vintage styled hats, it's just not big enough for the major manufacturers to seriously devote resources to making open crown hats apparently.

The upside of this is that it's created a smaller market of smart hat buyers and hat makers. Folks like Penman, Optimo, Art Fawcett, Black Sheep Hat Works, Paul's Hat Works, etc, who still have the old tools and make hats they way they did back in the old days. The downside of this is that a really nice hat is a luxury item purchase.

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:12 pm

CaptainKatanga wrote:I am a little unclear here also, I have an old Stetson (circa 1991), Officially licensed that is pure rabbit with a white liner. Is this just a version of the Temple?

Regards,
CaptainKatanga
P.S. I have since upgraded to a Penman pure rabbit Raiders, have worn it to work nearly every day and love it.

When Stetson lost the Indy license they continued selling the hats as The Temple.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:25 pm

jlee562 wrote:
CaptainKatanga wrote:I am a little unclear here also, I have an old Stetson (circa 1991), Officially licensed that is pure rabbit with a white liner. Is this just a version of the Temple?

Regards,
CaptainKatanga
P.S. I have since upgraded to a Penman pure rabbit Raiders, have worn it to work nearly every day and love it.
When Stetson lost the Indy license they continued selling the hats as The Temple.

They also sold a hat titled "the raider" I bought one of those back in the day as well as a Temple....although I don't know the history of "the raider" and if it was also a continued product of their Indy line or just something they tagged on for the "temple" line

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:32 pm

cant the hat be reblocked if the crown is wrong? Im no hat expert but i thought the crowns could be changed. I seen one dude make a pretty nice looking fedora otta a cowboy hat he had laying around. Whats the price ranges on some of these other hats as well? I know ya get what you pay for. I only ask because like some one stated earlier for some people close is enough. I get coupon discounts on certain web pages so things are even more affordable! I guess i am still sitting on the "how close is close enough!?" fence. This is a pricey bug to get bitten by

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:46 pm

aog bliss wrote:cant the hat be reblocked if the crown is wrong? Im no hat expert but i thought the crowns could be changed. I seen one dude make a pretty nice looking fedora otta a cowboy hat he had laying around. Whats the price ranges on some of these other hats as well? I know ya get what you pay for. I only ask because like some one stated earlier for some people close is enough. I get coupon discounts on certain web pages so things are even more affordable! I guess i am still sitting on the "how close is close enough!?" fence. This is a pricey bug to get bitten by

Christy's is around 90 bucks not including shipping (from england, we're talking 25 or 30 bucks) Akubra is 115 or so plus shipping, its around 150 bucks. Adventurbuilt which is the top of the line is 275, but shipping is alot cheaper, if you live in the states.

I have an akubra that is WELL worth the 150, another gently used akubra I achieved for 50 so its my go to hat. Eventually I want an Adventurbuilt but if I'm paying that much, then I'm getting a custom from Penman.

Truthfully, buy a stetson for normal wear, it will still give you an indy feel and people will still compliment you on it. As long as your not doing indy stuff or standing in seattle rains it'll last you a while. But for 50 bucks more you can get a really good close enough that is pretty sturdy as well.

I wear my akubra for hikes, in pouring rains, etc and its a close enough that looks great and its still going strong.

Again, no one will think less of you if you did buy a stetson, to each their own and to each their pocket book. I myself owned some stetsons, heck I'm sure we all did on this site at one point

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:46 pm

Reblocking a hat depends upon the quality of the felt and the quality of the hat itself. The quality has to be decent for a good reblock.

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:31 pm

Ill pass on the stetson. I dont think it looks close enough for the purpose. I could prolly buy the licensed product and get closer and thats not saying much. You have peaked my interest on the other hats.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:50 pm

aog bliss wrote:Ill pass on the stetson. I dont think it looks close enough for the purpose. I could prolly buy the licensed product and get closer and thats not saying much. You have peaked my interest on the other hats.

Man, if you were willing to blow 90 bucks on a stetson and are now looking towards the Licensed product, you might as well either buy a Christy's or an Akubra and get something that will blow the Licensed product out of the water. To be fair the Stetson is atleast a better quality fedora than the Licensed product which is barely a blip on the indygear radar.....I mean, I've tried on some of the Licensed product and while looking like an adventur type hat is no where near a fedora nor an Indy Fedora.

If you want to buy a hat and can only afford the Stetson, thats fine. If you can spend a little more extra cash. Get an Akubra. That's my opinion.

Mulceber · Post by **Mulceber** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:58 pm

If you want to buy a hat and can only afford the Stetson, thats fine. If you can spend a little more extra cash. Get an Akubra. That's my opinion.

We're in agreement.

Ill pass on the stetson. I dont think it looks close enough for the purpose. I could prolly buy the licensed product and get closer and thats not saying much. You have peaked my interest on the other hats.

Here are the links:

http://hatsdirect.com/cgi-bin/products. ... turnpage=0
http://www.topsecrethats.com/Christys-A ... elt-Fedora
http://www.penmanhats.com/Adventuebilt__the_Henry.html

-M

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:56 am

I was only trying to date the stetson hats that were produced. I'm aware of the quality and design issues.

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:33 am

The earlier Stetsons up to the late 1950's and into the early 1960's were good hats.

After that, they began cutting costs by really cheapening their production practices.

One of the worse offenses has been to use powder 'dye' for coloration rather than vat dyeing the felt in production.

You get caught in a really good 'frog strangling' rain, the dye WILL release, sending rivers of colored water running down your face and neck. More than one of us here have experienced that....me included.

That, and the fact they taper something awful after exposure to the wet, and fade badly from sun exposure. Their ribbons go from a rich dark brown to a taupe in a matter of months when exposed to the sun on a regular basis.

They're a great 'Sunday-go-to-meeting' hat, worn only on a beautiful sunny day, but otherwise, they're a bad investment if you're going for a regular use hat.

Like I said, if you can snag one from the mid 1950's backward, you've got a GREAT acquisition. Otherwise, unless you're just looking for a licensed LFL Indy Stetson to put in your collection, walk away. Anything made by Steteson after the years mentioned above are avoided by this writer.

JMO, but based on long experience with the item.

Regards! Michaelson

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:46 am

Michaelson:: What I was trying to do was to date the Stetson "Indy" style hats from 1984 forward.

Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:54 am

Understood. My answer was to the other posts above yours.

As to dating one Steson production run from another....I'm not personally aware of any way to separate one run from the next. All I've ever owned/handled have had the standard 'Temple of Doom' lining, be it the 'tip sticker' as found in the cheaper wool, or full liner in the fur felt, and all had the 1984 copyright.

Their practice of not matching felt colors from one batch to the next was legendary, so you could have one run literally following another, and you couldn't tell they were supposed to be the same order! The colors were off, some had the Indy pin, others did not, but their attitude was since no one would see them all together, and they were shipped all over the U. S. to different vendors, who'd know the difference?!

The style itself never changed. They used the same block shape from start to end of production since 1984.

Sort of like a cheap car paint shop that didn't bother mixing enough paint to paint a car. So what if one side was slightly off than the other in color? You only saw one side of the car at a time anyway!

Not sure if I've helped you with this reply.

Regards! Michaelson

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:32 am

Didn't Stetson do some limited run fur felt Indy hat with the gold satin lining and Black Stetson, Indy logo in top?
Thank you,
Gailen

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:44 pm

That was the one and only original version that LFL ordered to be sold by Paramount in the lobbies of the movie theaters, and they were actually subcontracted by Stetson to an Austrian hat maker.

Believe me, THAT'S a nice hat. I was able to snag one back in the day directly from one of the propmasters at Paramount, and it's a nicely made fedora. The felt feels like pure beaver.

They were a very VERY (did I mention very?) dark brown too....nothing like the models Stetson cranked out in the States.

Regards! Michaelson

trdaggers · Post by **trdaggers** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:21 pm

I just bought one of those off E-bay. It did not come cheap for a Stetson.
Thanks.

Gailen

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:39 pm

Ah okay see that was sarcasim about the licensed product... Ive seen those and I wouldnt waste my cash on one. The stetson wasnt ever really an option I was more curious about the quality of it. Ive read about the other hats in the past and have been aware of em but im an out of the box thinker and truely value yer guys opinions. I agree if i was gunna spend 90 yeah id rather buy the obviously better product lol. i do occasionally get 30 and 5o percent off hat coupons but after hearing about the quality of a stetson im not interested lol. even at 45 bucks

you guys give awesome feedback though and I appreciate it.

Post by **Michaelson** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:54 pm

trdaggers wrote:I just bought one of those off E-bay. It did not come cheap for a Stetson.
Thanks.

Gailen

I'm not surprised! Good catch!

Regards! Michaelson

Oildale Jones · Post by **Oildale Jones** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:04 pm

jlee562 wrote:There is a market out there for vintage and vintage styled hats, it's just not big enough for the major manufacturers to seriously devote resources to making open crown hats apparently.

The upside of this is that it's created a smaller market of smart hat buyers and hat makers. Folks like Penman, Optimo, Art Fawcett, Black Sheep Hat Works, Paul's Hat Works, etc, who still have the old tools and make hats they way they did back in the old days. The downside of this is that a really nice hat is a luxury item purchase.

I see the occasional thread at the RPF asking, "Hey, why doesn't somebody make...?" This answers that type of question quite succinctly.

Well said, sir.

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:25 am

Hats are sorta a lux item to begin with so the market is very small in the world of hats. Most people are happy with knock off trendy styles so quality isnt there for the manufacterer. It is nice the small business people to fill the nitch. Id like to see more american products out there. corse the original wasnt an american product so then it would be even less authentic! ha

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:18 am

aog bliss wrote:Hats are sorta a lux item to begin with so the market is very small in the world of hats. Most people are happy with knock off trendy styles so quality isnt there for the manufacterer. It is nice the small business people to fill the nitch. Id like to see more american products out there. corse the original wasnt an american product so then it would be even less authentic! ha

I don't know that I would really describe it as a luxury item. It certainly didn't start out as a luxury item, and definitely was not a luxury item during the heyday of the hat between the 20's-50's. But an off the shelf Stetson fur felt is gonna be $120-$175, not more than a pair of Nike shoes. Certainly they're marketed towards different segments of the population though.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:37 am

jlee562 wrote: I don't know that I would really describe it as a luxury item. It certainly didn't start out as a luxury item, and definitely was not a luxury item during the heyday of the hat between the 20's-50's. But an off the shelf Stetson fur felt is gonna be $120-$175, not more than a pair of Nike shoes. Certainly they're marketed towards different segments of the population though.

I don't know where you buy your nikes....lol! I just bought a pair of pumas for 39 bucks, my last pair of nikes was about that much as well. I would consider a fedora a luxury item, as honestly there's no need in this day and age to buy a fedora. It's no where near in style anymore and at times can even be a hinderance (i.e. restraunts, movie theaters) as well as for many people there's only certain times of year you can even wear them.

In this day and age where no one dresses up, a fedora looks out of place with shorts and a tshirt. Most poeple throw on a baseball cap.

And if you lose a cap during some rough housing, no big deal, 10-20 bucks replacement. A Fedora? That's a different story. What happens if you loose or seriously damage your custom made adventurebuilt? Take a dunk in a river? I would think a fur felt fedora can be ruined easier than probably all of the indy gear.

I say anything that is 50-60 years out of style and you have to go out of your way to even acquire is a luxury item, not to mention the possible price tag in replaceing. You don't need it, and there's many other options out there that serve a similar or better purpose.

Now, all that being said.......I'll still wear a fedora.

Post by **Michaelson** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:45 pm

backstagejack wrote:
jlee562 wrote: It's no where near in style anymore and at times can even be a hinderance (i.e. restraunts, movie theaters) as well as for many people there's only certain times of year you can even wear them.....

Now, all that being said.......I'll still wear a fedora.

Glad you're holding the line in Texas. If you were in Tennessee, you'd find a completely different story.

I was in Gatlinberg, TN over the Holidays, and it was FULL of shoppers and Holidays travelers from all over the U. S. wandering the streets. Wall to wall humanity! Traffic was just awful!

I was reminded of a post here where a poster asked if anyone had made much notice of how many men were actually wearing fedoras in public....so I started watching people. In my full day of wandering the streets, I observed 1 in 4 men who I passed was wearing a fedora.... either a full blown Indy style, or the 60's style stingy brim version....but fedora's one and all. Most were men in their 20's and 30', with an occasional 'oldster' wearing really nice examples walking the sidewalks.

So, at least in this part of the country the numbers are climbing, as more than 25% were sporting one where I travelled...and like I said, these folks were visiting from all over the country...and quite a few international travelers come to that area at Christmas too...and they were also wearing fedoras, so you'd be surprised how popular they are, and how many people really do wear them.

Regards! Michaelson

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:16 pm

Well, in that case maybe I need to move....lol! My old home town of 100,000 people I never saw one. When I lived in Ft. Worth I didn't, no in my current town, there's me, and an old professor at my university that wears a suit and fedora. There's an occasional stingy brim thing that came from target that I see a random kid wearing but that's about it. Of course....I wear an occasional derby hat as well.....I'm slowly starting to think I'm the cooky resident of my town....I'm "oh, that guy, yeah I've seen him around....weird." lol!

jlee562 · Post by **jlee562** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:00 pm

backstagejack wrote:
jlee562 wrote: I don't know that I would really describe it as a luxury item. It certainly didn't start out as a luxury item, and definitely was not a luxury item during the heyday of the hat between the 20's-50's. But an off the shelf Stetson fur felt is gonna be $120-$175, not more than a pair of Nike shoes. Certainly they're marketed towards different segments of the population though.
I don't know where you buy your nikes....lol! I just bought a pair of pumas for 39 bucks, my last pair of nikes was about that much as well. I would consider a fedora a luxury item, as honestly there's no need in this day and age to buy a fedora. It's no where near in style anymore and at times can even be a hinderance (i.e. restraunts, movie theaters) as well as for many people there's only certain times of year you can even wear them.

In this day and age where no one dresses up, a fedora looks out of place with shorts and a tshirt. Most poeple throw on a baseball cap.

And if you lose a cap during some rough housing, no big deal, 10-20 bucks replacement. A Fedora? That's a different story. What happens if you loose or seriously damage your custom made adventurebuilt? Take a dunk in a river? I would think a fur felt fedora can be ruined easier than probably all of the indy gear.

I say anything that is 50-60 years out of style and you have to go out of your way to even acquire is a luxury item, not to mention the possible price tag in replaceing. You don't need it, and there's many other options out there that serve a similar or better purpose.

Now, all that being said.......I'll still wear a fedora.

I haven't purchased a pair of Nikes in well over a decade, but I remember their basketball shoes being well over $100 and a quick check of Amazon.com confirms that this is still the case.

But for me the issue is really more like an Optimo at $600 is a luxury good. A Stetson at $150 is a piece of clothing. It's like a VW is a car, but a Mercedes is a luxury automobile.

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:52 pm

I agree any item not needed is a lux item. We arnt in the heyday of dress hats anymore. As for the fedoras the kids in their 20s are wearing, I have a few of those and trust me they arnt near the quality of any dress hat. Cheap knock offs bought for 10 bucks at spencers or hot topic. Nothing close to any of the hats you guys are discussing but yes the style is coming back. Still hope for the adventurer hat! I imagine a fedora would fit in more in the states where cowboy hats are more common. Here in MI you will see a range.

auntsugar · Post by **auntsugar** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Since it appears that you're going to pass on the Stetson--you may want to snag one if Todd's lids. They look great for the money, and I've heard good things.

backstagejack · Post by **backstagejack** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:19 am

auntsugar wrote:Since it appears that you're going to pass on the Stetson--you may want to snag one if Todd's lids. They look great for the money, and I've heard good things.

Right now his downtowner is on sale normally 129 for 99. Might want to grab one of those actually. I have heard some good things as well.

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:56 pm

alas like his boots... he does not have my size! already looked

#### shame too cause i enjoyed watching his inventory and i need some new brown "dress shoes" for work.

aog bliss · Post by **aog bliss** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:46 pm

Im thinking about ordering a Christy seems like you can pick those up for round 100 bucks shipped right now. ugh wish my head wasnt such a difficult fit. Im always inbetween sizes.