Questions about the G&B Expedition and its history

[Kaplan]

I have a few questions about the history of the G&B. I know those involved can help clear things up for me. How close is the current Expedition to the stunt jacket that it is based on?

I know that it was never advertized as an exact copy of the stunt jacket, and certain attributes were incorporated into the design in order to make it more functional in the real world. Its just that when you see member's pics of the G&B Expedition early prototypes being so different and not Raiders like at all, it makes me wonder. When (if I remember correctly, it was _) was allowed to make measurements of the stunt jacket and provided these measurements to G&B, I wonder how much room to play around existed between these measurements. For example, if I gave 20 measurements to one jacket maker and told him to make me an Indy jacket, and I gave another jacket maker 100 measurements and told him to do the same, I believe you would end up with two totally different jackets.

So here are my questions that I'm sure those that are involved can answer for me. Who advised G&B through the prototype revision process? Was the stunt jacket on hand during this process? What changes were expressly asked for and wich of these were and weren't carried out? What details of this jacket lean more toward interpretation and memory, and what came out exactly as specified through measurement. Obviously I'm not talking about the lining, zipper length, or zipper color.
Here's another question to start it off; did the stunt jacket have double under arm gussets? Or was this something requested because of the famous "Mick Jagger lips" screen grab?

Thanks!

[Michaelson]

I can answer a few of these for you:

Who advised G&B through the prototype revision process? _, Lee, and myself

Was the stunt jacket on hand during this process? No, it was not, but it was examined twice before the patterns were made

What changes were expressly asked for and wich of these were and weren't carried out? _ and Lee would have to answer this. I know there was a disagreement regarding the pocket flaps, but that seems to always come up.

What details of this jacket lean more toward interpretation and memory, and what came out exactly as specified through measurement. There were several iterations of the jacket in prototypes submitted. A lot of the specifics from the measured stunt jacket were followed to the letter....but others were added to make the jacket more 'real world use', such as the tried and true elastic strap in the back to keep the action pleats closed, as well as the mirror action pleats that exist in the lining. Once again, _ was the point man..

Here's another question to start it off; did the stunt jacket have double under arm gussets? it had the gussets, as I recall. It was also confirmed from the photo from the Star Magazine cover that Lee and I had. It was _ who gave them the 'Mick Jagger' nick name at the time

Regards! Michaelson

[Kaplan]

I can answer a few of these for you:

Who advised G&B through the prototype revision process? _, Lee, and myself
Was the stunt jacket on hand during this process? No, it was not, but it was examined twice before the patterns were made
What changes were expressly asked for and wich of these were and weren't carried out? _ and Lee would have to answer this. I know there was a disagreement regarding the pocket flaps, but that seems to always come up.
What details of this jacket lean more toward interpretation and memory, and what came out exactly as specified through measurement. There were several iterations of the jacket in prototypes submitted. A lot of the specifics from the measured stunt jacket were followed to the letter....but others were added to make the jacket more 'real world use', such as the tried and true elastic strap in the back to keep the action pleats closed, as well as the mirror action pleats that exist in the lining. Once again, _ was the point man..
Here's another question to start it off; did the stunt jacket have double under arm gussets? it had the gussets, as I recall. It was also confirmed from the photo from the Star Magazine cover that Lee and I had. It was _ who gave them the 'Mick Jagger' nick name at the time

Regards! Michaelson

Thanks for your help on this. I have a few more detailed questions. I'm sorry for going so deep into all of this. It may seem really petty and unimportant, but they are questions that I have always had. Maybe _ will chime in.
When the stunt jacket was examined twice before the patterns were made, was this by _ alone? Was anyone from G&B there?
Would it be correct to assume that when the first prototype was presented to you three, it was measured and examined with the stunt jacket notes and measurements in hand? How were the changes expressed to G&B? Were they present when the prototype was being examined?
Aside from the real world use changes that you and I have mentioned, were there any differences in the size of the neck opening, collar size and shape?
The Mick Jagger gussets... did any other screen used jacket have this feature?

[Michaelson]

Yep, you're going into territory that those who were physically on site will have to answer.

I put the individuals together on the project, then fielded questions from G&B and the participants as they came up, but me being located several thousand miles from the actual activity kind of limited what I could and could not do.

Hopefully either Lee or _ will wander by to answer those questions for you.

I do know that the points of the specs taken from the private collection stunt jacket were confirmed from Terry Leonard's stunt jacket when MK and _ visited him on separate occasions during the pre-production process, so there was definitely more than one set of eyes involved in confirmations.

_ did a lot of heavy lifting, but him being a CPA, he knew at the time that he needed cooberation on all facts and figures, and insisted that as many set of eyes as could be mustered up in the hobby and industry be used to confirm what he and Lee were seeing.

As a side note, Terry was one of the few individuals who kept his Raiders stunt jacket, and used it some of the other Indy films, so it being available as a bench mark to compare the private collector jacket was invaluable.

The participants were able to get specific details to look for from Peter Botwright in order to confirm the jackets being examined were indeed Wested jackets. They were.

One really cool thing about the Expedtion is that not long after the first production began, one was presented to Harrison Ford by G&B, and it's one that he's still seen occasionally wearing to this day when he goes out flying at the Jackson Hole airport. That was given to him 11 years ago, so it seems that 'Indiana Jones' himself endorses the Expedition, considering it is his only personal use Indy jacket we know of him actually wearing on a fairly regular basis when at home.

If you're dying to learn all the info, start digging around in the old Indyfan vaults, starting back in around 2000-2001. The entire project is there in 'real time', or at least a much information as we were willing to share with the forum at the time.

By the way, the 'talking heads' NEVER claimed it was a 'hero jacket'. Ever. It was always stated to be only a screen used Raiders jacket and nothing more. Yes. We hear things....

Regards! Michaelson

[Kaplan]

Thanks for the explanation. I almost missed the fine print. If that's the case, I'll certainly take your word for it.

[Michaelson]

[Renderking Fisk]

Just wondering... when threads come up like this could we put a "Where To Buy" link for the Newbies, too?

[Michaelson]

That's what the vendor list is for on the main IG page, Eric.

http://www.indygear.com/igvendors.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards! Michaelson

[Renderking Fisk]

You're right. For some reason I had a newbie perspective for a moment and a random brainwave.

[Michaelson]

[Solo4114]

Kaplan,

For what it's worth, I just had one of these delivered on Friday. It's an off-the-rack 40R. It fits me quite well (although only two of my measurements are different from their 40R). The jacket looks great, is built like a tank without feeling as heavy as cowhide, and it looks good to me as far as "Screen Reminiscence" goes. Out of the box, it doesn't drape that well, nor look anywhere near as beat up as the ones you saw on the screen, but the potential is absolutely there.

Many folks here (myself included) have given up on "Screen Accuracy" as the (ahem) Holy Grail of jacket collecting because:

- None of us is Harrison Ford (as far as I know, anyway), nor are any of us built exactly like him. When we wear the jacket, it may drape differently on any of us.

- Multiple jackets were used both for Ford and for the stunt crew, so you don't have a single consistent jacket as your touchstone.

- Lighting, position of the actor/stuntman, etc. can all affect what the jacket looks like from frame to frame. Same goes for members when they snap shots of themselves.

- Age/distressing of member jackets will differ from member to member.


The end result is that folks will show off their new or four-month-old or eight-year-old Expo and you won't see a ton of consistency from jacket to jacket. This is the inherent pitfall of this hobby -- across ALL gear, I might add. Each of us has a "perfect" notion -- some Platonic essence of "Raiders jacketness" -- in mind. And yet, here on the material plane of existence, we're stuck with imperfect representations of that essence made by imperfect human hands. All that aside, the Expo's a #### of a jacket from the limited time I've had one. I'll be sending my off-the-rack one back, to get a "made to measure" custom job, myself.

[CM]

I just love the intrinisc post-modernism in Harrison Ford wearing a fan-inspired copy of a badly made movie jacket for a fictional character he played while he goes forth having real adventures in a plane he earned while playing that fictional character.

[Michaelson]

....just don't think about it too long. You'll get a head ache!


Thing is, without the 'real world' changes that were made TO that 'badly made' movie jacket, I doubt the man would bother wearing it.

Regards! Michaelson

[Texan Scott]

...so most likely, TL's jacket was one of only three jackets made from the third Leather Concessionaire order, made for the principal stunt guys.

[whipcracker]

I just love the intrinisc post-modernism in Harrison Ford wearing a fan-inspired copy of a badly made movie jacket for a fictional character he played while he goes forth having real adventures in a plane he earned while playing that fictional character.

So I guess that means you can either go crazy trying to come up with what you think HF wore in a movie 30 years ago or you can just get one that we know he actually likes and uses, and since we KNOW HE was there on set and saw and even USED the hero jacket, we can probably almost guess that he would know what he wishes they would have had back then and possibly would have said something like "can't we just use this one? I like it better." So in other words it's easier to be HF accurate and just get a G&B, although I would guess that he probably has a custom made G&B....

[Kaplan]

But I get a kick out of people who don't have the spine to say what they'll imply in a backhanded fashion. You can report what you like back to the other guys hiding under rocks - at FAG I believe? Kurt will pretend he gets it - but he's just afraid y'all will figure out he just sells advertising.

I hope nobody here thinks I'm implying anything from my above posts. That's not the case. These are genuine questions that I have. I'm asking them for me, not for anyone else. So far I think the answers I've gotten concerning G&B have been pretty clear. I'm not on a first name basis with many people in this hobby, so I'm not sure which one Kurt is. BTW, I don't report to anyone (except my wife ).

[Texan Scott]

Thanks for the clarification. I always wondered about that.

[Kaplan]

Thanks for the clarification. I always wondered about that.

Well I feel good enough knowing that I'm not keeping Texan Scott up at night anymore. I mean.. thank God!

[Texan Scott]

ZZzzzzzzzz....er...huh?... ......Zzzzzzz....

(I mean, the stunt jacket of the 2nd order as Todd pointed out).

[Canada Jones]

Ye

One really cool thing about the Expedtion is that not long after the first production began, one was presented to Harrison Ford by G&B, and it's one that he's still seen occasionally wearing to this day when he goes out flying at the Jackson Hole airport. That was given to him 11 years ago, so it seems that 'Indiana Jones' himself endorses the Expedition, considering it is his only personal use Indy jacket we know of him actually wearing on a fairly regular basis when at home.

Regards! Michaelson

This is a great tribute to this jacket and those who helped designed it. Well done. Are there pics of him wearing it somewhere online? Also, why was the jacket made in goat and was that what was sent to Ford? I am assuming the TL jacket is made of lamb. I love the G&B jacket. I recently traded a 42 regular, which was a bit short on me for a 44T which fits much better. Again, beautifully made jacket and a pleasure to wear.
thanks to all who played a part in bringing this to fruition.
best
Canada

[Kaplan]

I have another question. As the G&B has rectangular sliders, the stunt jacket did too? Was the tri-bar buckle unique to the cooper hero only, and the rest of the jackets had sliders?

[Kaplan]

Ian Higgenbotham reported that the costume crew replaced the d-rings with sliders on screen-used jackets. The d-rings didn't work on the thin leather once they were aged/distressed. Pretty sure that's in the write-up? He also has a plethora of stuff on the progeny of zippers and linings.

Ian's a gem. One of those "Covey/Franklin planner" people. Took notes on everything during the day. Keeps his planners. I am NOT one of those people, so I surround myself with them. Kelly's one of them... So is my daughter. I did something right with her.

I remember the d-ring thing from the write-up. D-rings seem to be a Wested calling card. So the d-rings came with the jackets -- and were subsequently replaced with rectangular sliders, and this was in both orders 2 and 3? But order 1 (hero jacket) didn't have d-rings or rectangular sliders, but a tri-bar buckle? If that's the case, then the hero is the only one with tri-bar buckles?

[Kaplan]

Nope. Everything from Wested came with d-rings. Peter confirmed this to me on a call in September of 2007. I've asked about this tri-bar? Ian's response was it would have been essentially the same as the slider and they may have used both interchangeably. I've seen screen grabs where that bar is quite visible, so I'd call both accurate.

Somewhere I have a pic of the sliders on the hero George has. It has sliders - today. But during the shakedown period where they noticed the problem with the d-rings, Ian noted swaps were going on and what may have had a tri-bar on screen at Elstree could have had a slider in Africa. He thought the tribar was a UK-thing. You see, the "crisis" sorta popped back up in Africa. Less humidity. The leather shrank more. That's where the painted zips began failing - the heat softened the paint and the zips began failing again.

So, stuff changed. Something Tony mentioned to me was that the zip on the hero was changed twice at least. This was because he spotted the mismatched stitching holes. When I asked Ian about this his reply was to add one switch to that number because he personally put one replacement in by-hand where he did match the stitch holes.

If you keep asking good questions, I'm gonna think you're serious and apologize...

The thing about the zipper on the hero being swapped out several times is something I hadn't heard before. It's actually pretty important information that could throw a wrench into some of the screengrabs in which people have attempted to match jackets by the curl of the zipper. wow.

As for the tri-bars I guess they are as you say more in the same situation as the rectangular sliders, as they were added later by the production company. Does that mean that no jacket used in the film arrived brand new with tri-bars?
I am serious _, and there's no need to apologize. I think everyone here is capable of discussing the topics of this hobby reasonably and calmly. And that's just what we're doing... talking about our hobby.

[Rundquist]

So - riddle me this? You recently sold off some Expeditions. Why the curiosity now? Just asking...

Sometimes people don't realize what they have until it is gone. It happens all of the time. You know, like not appreciating what a handsome devil you are until after father time comes to collect.

[Rundquist]

...so most likely, TL's jacket was one of only three jackets made from the third Leather Concessionaire order, made for the principal stunt guys.

And to be clear. The progeny of the jacket I examined that we are referencing? It was clearly part of the SECOND order. A disposable stunt jacket and NOT a hero-copy made at the instigation of the script supervisor.

As M points out, TL kept his hero-copy for many years. It was not returned until before shooting began on CS. It was collateral damage of the paranoia around images et al before, during, and after shooting of CS. THAT time around, I was there to witness it. Not a time to see our "idols" in their best light. I recently talked to somebody who worked on Jaws. He likened it all back to when pics leaked of "Bruce" during shooting on Nantucket. Steven went nuts.

The Raiders jacket is kinda like Bruce the shark. It looked good enough while it was moving onscreen, but looked phony when examined up close under natural light.

[Rundquist]

Nope. Everything from Wested came with d-rings. Peter confirmed this to me on a call in September of 2007. I've asked about this tri-bar? Ian's response was it would have been essentially the same as the slider and they may have used both interchangeably. I've seen screen grabs where that bar is quite visible, so I'd call both accurate.

Somewhere I have a pic of the sliders on the hero George has. It has sliders - today. But during the shakedown period where they noticed the problem with the d-rings, Ian noted swaps were going on and what may have had a tri-bar on screen at Elstree could have had a slider in Africa. He thought the tribar was a UK-thing. You see, the "crisis" sorta popped back up in Africa. Less humidity. The leather shrank more. That's where the painted zips began failing - the heat softened the paint and the zips began failing again.

So, stuff changed. Something Tony mentioned to me was that the zip on the hero was changed twice at least. This was because he spotted the mismatched stitching holes. When I asked Ian about this his reply was to add one switch to that number because he personally put one replacement in by-hand where he did match the stitch holes.

If you keep asking good questions, I'm gonna think you're serious and apologize...

The thing about the zipper on the hero being swapped out several times is something I hadn't heard before. It's actually pretty important information that could throw a wrench into some of the screengrabs in which people have attempted to match jackets by the curl of the zipper. wow.

As for the tri-bars I guess they are as you say more in the same situation as the rectangular sliders, as they were added later by the production company. Does that mean that no jacket used in the film arrived brand new with tri-bars?
I am serious _, and there's no need to apologize. I think everyone here is capable of discussing the topics of this hobby reasonably and calmly. And that's just what we're doing... talking about our hobby.

Yes, a twice swapped out zipper would also account for why it was so wavy. That and trying to shove one in that might have not quite fit the dimensions.

[Flyderf]

The Raiders jacket is kinda like Bruce the shark. It looked good enough while it was moving onscreen, but looked phony when examined up close under natural light.

Same can be said for some women I've dated.

[Kaplan]

So - riddle me this? You recently sold off some Expeditions. Why the curiosity now? Just asking...

I tried to sell them, but they didn't sell. I have had them in my closet for a year or two, as I had aquired other jackets since I got them. While they were hanging in my closet they weren't on my mind, but it's spring cleaning and so now they're sitting on a chair in my office at home waiting for me to re-list them on ebay. I'm looking at them every day and they're bringing up questions I've had for a while.

[Kaplan]

The Raiders jacket is kinda like Bruce the shark. It looked good enough while it was moving onscreen, but looked phony when examined up close under natural light.

Same can be said for some women I've dated.

It's called "gear goggles".

[Michaelson]

Yeah, for a while there I heard I had invented you.

Interesting world we live in.

Regards !Michaelson

[Kaplan]

So, seriously. Why the sudden interest (and pointed questions) about a jacket you've obviously already knew enough about to drop a couple thousand bucks on - and only recently sold? Your "activity" on FAG is not as "cordial" as you imply here. Sooooooo....
PS: I don't look at FAG. Kelly (my wife, who you freaks think does not exist) does. I ask her not to tell me the details. I don't want to know.
PPS: Did you know that for the longest time, the same freak who now claims Kelly is fictitious used to claim that I was "made up." Yes - he-who-shall-not-be-named claimed that "_ is a creation of G&B and Lee Keppler, for the purpose of giving credibility to Lee's claims about the jacket."
You're listening to certifiable lunatics. But, maybe you're one as well? I find it pretty funny.

As far as the jackets go, I bought the jackets because of the testimonials concerning their quality. Nobody can argue that they are't top notch jackets in that area. I suppose in my life I've spent more than that on other things I hadn't done all my homework on. I'm just curious. I swear to God I don't have an agenda behind my curiosity... fair enough?
When it comes to F&G, I think my behavior is appropriate to my surroundings. I wouldn't want to walk into a tea party and cut a fart. There's a place for that.. it's called the elevator. Seriously though, go over there and talk things out (or battle them). An understanding might be met. Ya never know.

Who your wife is none of my business. I'm not concerned. If it makes you feel better, I certainly believe that you exist. I'm not as impressionable as you might believe. I like to think I'm a reasonable person, but so do most lunatics. And you're right... most of the contention in this hobby is very laughable.

[Kaplan]

Fair enough. Like I said - I get it second hand and I barely listen anyway, so I probably butcher that.

I give FAG more press than it deserves from here. Not going to give it more credibility by joining in. They could have curbed their behavior here but chose to personally attack Sarge. They deserve the silencing they received.

Nope - good questions and I'm happy to answer when the impetus is honest.

I respect your stance on that. Don't forget the open invetation to come over and clarify things in the manner you see fit. I can't speak for everyone, but I appreciate learning when I'm wrong on something even if it means being beaten over the head repeatedly. Like I said, it's worth a shot.

Well... now that were cool... I wish I had more questions to ask. Oh, one last one. Patch pockets. In the stunt jacket, were they sewn on top of the jacket body like the current G&B? I have never been able to dig up info on whether or not the jacket Tony examined had the pockets sewed into the lining.

[Canada Jones]

Don't remember why they chose goat, other than it's one of the best skins. My Expeditions were all thin veg goat. Michaelson has one of them. It's got the best drape IMO.

THanks for the response. I agree about how great the goat is.
best
Canada

[Kaplan]

Wasn't even on my radar back then. Didn't know the difference until Dave Marshall educated me after the fact. They went with what they felt it looked like, and I deferred.

I'm not sure I understand. Would you elaborate? Doesn't it all look the same?

[Kaplan]

Lol! Exactly MY point. When they showed me two different ways of building the duel-entry patch pockets, my eyes glazed over. I never checked the original. I measured outer dimensions. Drew the curve. Sketched the overlap of the top flap to the undying patch. But the internal construction? Over my head at the time. Left it to them. Had I had my way, my jackets would not have the handwarmers. They're useless on me. Plus they are not period correct. But it wasn't my place to do that. They wanted something as close to the one examined as possible, and I'd run out of opportunities to inspect it. It'd been sold and was being restored.

While I appreciate the appreciation for the work, it really wasn't work. It was fun and I cleared up a bunch of personal questions in the process. But I was still a newbie myself. I'd do it differently today.

You know... I'm actually glad you didn't stick your hand into the stunt jacket hand warmer to see for yourself. It might have lowered the value.

[Long John Tinfoil]

That's Bink's speciality

Oh! You meant because he might have torn it...