Kip versus 'Roo: Which is more SA for a Raiders whip?

[DarenHenryW]

Here's something I would like to discuss.

It seems well documented that Glen Randall supplied HF with some of his personal DM whips when filming began, and that there is a belief that one or two of these whips were made of Kip. Now that I have two kip hide whips made by COW member Graeme Roberts, I'm starting to feel that the main "hero" whip was indeed one of Glen Randall's kip hide whips, and not any of the Morgan's supplied for the production. I'm not questioning the fact that DM 'roo hide whips were used for TOD/LC, and some of Raiders, but it seems that the whip HF seems to carry most of the time in Raiders, looks like a kip hide whip, and I'm basing this purely off of the color.

Have a look here:



Now look at this photo.



On the left are two Del Carpio's: the first on the far left is over a year and half old, and has aged well, but it's very orange, as all natural tan roo hide whips seem to become. The one next to it is brand new. The next whip is a kip hide whip, just about a year old, and the whip on the far right is a kip hide whip, and it is brand new, both made by Graeme, using "English Kip".

The year old kip hide whip, in regards to color, looks more like the whip in these promo stills than do the 'roo hide whips.

What do you guys think?
Daren Henry W

[Hollowpond]

Well, considering I just bought one of Bernardo's Kip whips...Kip, definately Kip! No doubt about it the Raiders whips are Kip. Just kidding, you do make a very interesting argument though...Good work!

[DarenHenryW]

Well, considering I just bought one of Bernardo's Kip whips...Kip, definately Kip! No doubt about it the Raiders whips are Kip. Just kidding, you do make a very interesting argument though...Good work!

You just bought a kip whip from Bernardo? A value line? Or a whip that has kip for the overlay as well as the inside? From what I understand, the value line uses kip inside, but still has 'roo on the outside.

Tell me more about it . . . Length? Price? (if I may ask . . . ) A Raiders style, I assume?
Daren

[Hollowpond]

Welllll...not exactly. This one is one that was made a while back by Bernardo. I don't think he makes them anymore. Its an 8 plait 8 foot kip. I got it practically brand new (been cracked once) on the bazaar for $150. I'm not a crazy SA nazi, so the 8 plait is fine for me. I just need a good whip to use for my Physics class. It does look very Raiders though (if you can get past the 8 plait...which I can. )

Travis

[DarenHenryW]

Welllll...not exactly. This one is one that was made a while back by Bernardo. I don't think he makes them anymore. Its an 8 plait 8 foot kip. I got it practically brand new (been cracked once) on the bazaar for $150. I'm not a crazy SA nazi, so the 8 plait is fine for me. I just need a good whip to use for my Physics class. It does look very Raiders though (if you can get past the 8 plait...which I can. )

Travis

Cool, thanks. Good to know. I wrote to Bernardo earlier today to see if he'd be up to making me one. I know there are other whipmakers who can do it. James Emery for one, and Graeme certainly could have made me an 8 or a 10 footer before he went on hiatus. Haven't heard back from Bernardo yet, and I won't be surprised if he says no, but I'm sure that if he did do it, it would be a fantastic whip.

Of course, I've got more whips than I could possible need and almost everyone is 'roo, but these two kip hide whips from Graeme have made me realize that a really, really SA kip side whip, 8' or 10' would be a welcome addition, and I think it would really help sell the outfit a little more than even a top notch 'roo whip would, since they all eventually get that dark orange brown color, and I just don't see that color that much from a Raiders whip; TOD/LC yes, but not Raiders.

DHW

[Marhala]

Hey Daren! You do make a point. But I find it a bit difficult to determine a whip was made from kip based on color alone.

There are some factors:

1) Lighting

2) The way the picture has been manipulated over the years

3) Tanning process of the hide (don't know if it has ever changed for kangaroo over the years), and how it oxidizes

4) The type of shellac used to finish off the whip (whether transparent or orange)

5) Perhaps other things such as dirt, and the like

But I do get what you say: The kip bullwhip seems to have more green in its color than the roo one, which, as you write has more "orange" tint to it.

Have a great week!

Aldo

http://elasticrods.wordpress.com

[kwad]

Interesting , I've been thinking about this too.

The kangaroo hide embargo lasted from 1973 to 1981.

The whip used in the "stay out of the light" sceene at the beginning of the movie is very light in color. More than likely, it was a newer whip (not yet tanned/darkened with age).

If that whip was relatively new during the shooting of that sceene (which it appeared to be), it was more than likely made of kip as that was what DM was using at the time.

As for the hero whip, if it was one of those brought in by Glenn Randall, unless it was made before '73-'74, it was more than likely made of Kip as well.

ps. Daren, that is a great picture (I had to make that my desktop background!)

[G-Roberts]

This is a tough one, Thanks for posting this Daren. The whips look great. The way I see it is this, there is drum stuffed hide and veg tanned hide. I use veg tanned hide whether it be roo or kip. The natural veg tanned is always lighter in colour than drum stuffed, almost white as you can see from the new kip whip. The drum stuffed is darker like the new Bernardo whip. This could make the difference in the ageing colours. Also the plaiting soap could alter the colour. I just use pecards antique leather dressing to plait with and this doesn't alter the colour just darkens it slightly. I've plaited whips with veg tanned roo hide the same way, and the colour is the same as the kip just a bit darker, and ages the same "dirty" brown we see on the year old kip whip.
Hope this helped though this is just from my experience with veg tanned roo and kip. I guess the hero whip could be kip or veg tanned roo
Graeme
P.S Here is a pic of a slightly age veg tanned roo whip handle, as you can see there is no orange tint to it,

[jnicktem]

Welllll...not exactly. This one is one that was made a while back by Bernardo. I don't think he makes them anymore. Its an 8 plait 8 foot kip. I got it practically brand new (been cracked once) on the bazaar for $150. I'm not a crazy SA nazi, so the 8 plait is fine for me. I just need a good whip to use for my Physics class. It does look very Raiders though (if you can get past the 8 plait...which I can. )

Travis

Dude?!? What's with you buying everything out from under me! First the Wested, and now that whip? I was second in line for it. Oh well, you are saving me money!

[Hollowpond]

Yeah...I've been snatching up deals so quick here recently, I'm reluctant to even talk about them, I feel down right guilty... Sorry, I'm done now...

[Bernardodc]

Great post Daren!

My view on the subject is as follows: all vegetable-tanned leathers will darken with exposure to sunlight. The shade of brown they turn into will depend on the type of bark used in the tanning process, and if the hides have been drum-stuffed, a process that darkens the leather. Different tree barks will yield different colors. The bark used in English kip is different than the bark used by Packer in Australia, and that makes for a different shade of brown when the leather oxidizes.

The kip sides I import from the States, have a different shade of brown than the hides I get from the local tannery here. Even when I oil them, they still have a different tint of brown. The kip hides I get here will darken like a kangaroo from Packer: an orangish brown.

Just to clarify a point made by Graeme, the kangaroo leather I use comes from Packer in Australia. It is vegetable-tanned, and also drum-stuffed, which means it has gone through an additional process that involves oiling the skins to improve the strength and braiding characteristics. This is a process that Packer developed in the 80s. Packer also sells "dry" hides, which are lighter in color. Again, BOTH are vegetable-tanned.

Now, when David Morgan started making and offering his bullwhips, he used kangaroo of the dry type, because there wasn't any drum-stuffed stuff back then. However, he "hand stuffed" his skins with oil, again to improve their strength and braiding characteristics. Dry skins feel like cardboard when cutting and paring. He also "hand stuffed" his kip hides, used in bolsters.

Later on, when the embargo was in force, he kept making his bullwhips in kangaroo, since he had a good stock of skins, and orders we small at the time. Mr. Morgan's supply of 'roo skins must have lasted a few years. When his supply run out, he started using for the overlay and the plaited bellies the same English kip he had been using for the bolsters and core. He also "hand stuffed" these kip hides with oil, and used plaiting soap. I am confident his kip whips were not as light in color as Graeme's because of this.

To sum up: I agree with you Daren that the shade of brown seen in Raiders looks a lot like your kip whip from Graeme, although as Aldo pointed out, there are many factors to consider that influence the way we see color in the photos we have available. It is certainly a possibility that HF used a Morgan bullwhip made in kip. We'll never know for sure I guess...

Regards,

Bernardo

[G-Roberts]

Well said Bernardo, I hope I didn't come across that I was trying to put the roo hides you use down in any way, shape or form because I wasn't. If I did then I am sorry I know they are both veg tanned but was just saying that the drum-stuffed leather seems to go the Orange brown colour.
There are many things to consider and as you said, we will never know.
Graeme

[Bernardodc]

No worries Graeme! I was just clarifying that info so as to avoid confusion

Btw, since the kangaroo skins you use darken in a similar shade of brown to your kip hides, I take those aren't from Packer. May I ask where you get your roo hides?

Cheers,

Bernardo

[G-Roberts]

Thanks Bernardo,
I get my roo hides from Simon Martin. Fantastic customer service too.
Graeme.

[Bernardodc]

Thank you Graeme!

I am familiar with Simon's roo skins. I had the opportunity to try them out when I was visiting my good friend Paul Nolan. He likes them a lot. I experimented with them a bit, "hand stuffing" them, and they turned darker, but always a different shade of brown than the skins from Packer, like in the pic of the used whip you posted.

Bernardo

[G-Roberts]

Always happy to help I guess Simon's hides are great for the Raiders and packers are perfect for the TOD and LC whips. Just my opinion of course
Graeme

[IndianaBravo]

Hi!

I have one of Bernardos kip side 8 plait whips and I love it, it really packs a wallop:



If I remember correctly, Bernardo made these in 8 plait because the kip he had at the time didnt have the necessary tensile strenght for a 12 plait. I also have a 10 footer from Graeme. Ive put up this pic elsewhere, but I thought it would be good to post it here for contrast with the other shots weve seen:


I have another just like this coming from Graeme, it will be interesting to see the contrast between the two. Ive always thought that the Raiders whips were kip, based on pictures like the ones Daren has posted here and other discussions on the forum.

Regards
IndianaBravo

[G-Roberts]

Hi!

I have one of Bernardos kip side 8 plait whips and I love it, it really packs a wallop:



If I remember correctly, Bernardo made these in 8 plait because the kip he had at the time didnt have the necessary tensile strenght for a 12 plait. I also have a 10 footer from Graeme. Ive put up this pic elsewhere, but I thought it would be good to post it here for contrast with the other shots weve seen:


I have another just like this coming from Graeme, it will be interesting to see the contrast between the two. Ive always thought that the Raiders whips were kip, based on pictures like the ones Daren has posted here and other discussions on the forum.

Regards
IndianaBravo

Hi Bravo,
I'm glad you posted this because your kip whip from me has aged differently to Daren's. It has more of the orange brown in it What dressing have you used on it? Its a beautiful colour all th same
Graeme

[Hollowpond]

Hi!

I have one of Bernardos kip side 8 plait whips and I love it, it really packs a wallop:



If I remember correctly, Bernardo made these in 8 plait because the kip he had at the time didnt have the necessary tensile strenght for a 12 plait. I also have a 10 footer from Graeme. Ive put up this pic elsewhere, but I thought it would be good to post it here for contrast with the other shots weve seen:


I have another just like this coming from Graeme, it will be interesting to see the contrast between the two. Ive always thought that the Raiders whips were kip, based on pictures like the ones Daren has posted here and other discussions on the forum.

Regards
IndianaBravo

Now that really does get me excited to get my whip!

[G-Roberts]

P.S Bravo's whip is the whip in my avatar brand new so it started off the same colour as Daren's whip,
Graeme.

[IndianaBravo]

Hey Hollowpond, Im sure you will love your Bernardo kip. I also expressed interest in it, but I guess I didnt make the "A" list. Graeme, I forgot that your avatar is indeed my whip! Ive only used Pecard on it. Maybe the sunshine here in Spain has something to do with the color. In any case I really havent taken it out since Christmas. Nothing but rain lately.

Cheers!

IndianaBravo

[Hollowpond]

Well, considering this will be my ONLY whip, I appreciate you letting me get it!

Travis

[DarenHenryW]

Well, considering this will be my ONLY whip, I appreciate you letting me get it!

Travis

ONLY whip! Ha! Famous last words.



DHW

[Hollowpond]

I don't exactly know why, but I have never had the desire to have multiple pieces of gear... I own 1 fedora (Indy that is), 1 jacket, 1 MK VII, etc. When I won this whip, I decided to pass my old nylon whip onto a gearhead in need. When it didn't sell, I decided to donate it to one of the summit raffles. Now, I do like to REALLY like my gear pieces (ie Ick-Free), but I don't have to have multiples. Which given my income bracket, is probably a good thing.

[DarenHenryW]

I don't exactly know why, but I have never had the desire to have multiple pieces of gear... I own 1 fedora (Indy that is), 1 jacket, 1 MK VII, etc. When I won this whip, I decided to pass my old nylon whip onto a gearhead in need. When it didn't sell, I decided to donate it to one of the summit raffles. Now, I do like to REALLY like my gear pieces (ie Ick-Free), but I don't have to have multiples. Which given my income bracket, is probably a good thing.

Well, then I stand corrected. You are a better man than I.

As for me, even if there had only been one film, I'm sure I would still have multiples, but this is partly because I've been using most of my gear for performances, and it's hard not to want to have back-ups, and certain pieces of gear serve certain purposes, as well dividing some of my gear for getting dirty, and some for staying clean. (I have four brown hats, three jackets, well over a dozen whips, two pairs of boots, a few shirts, two bags, two holsters, two pairs of pants, etc.)

As for whips, while its true that the majority of my whips are about collecting, many of my whips are about expanding my skills. I find that its very hard to learn how to do different things with just one whip. You are going to learn very different things with a four or five foot whip than you will with a nine, ten, or a twelve foot whip, etc. Then of course, there is handle length, stock whips vs. bullwhips.

What can I say? It's a hobby . . .


DHW

But

[Hollowpond]

I'm certainly not judging anyone who buys multiple items! I realize that I'm in the minority on this forum. I've had two jackets before, and I honestly didn't like it...(weird right ) I don't like trying to figure out what will get used, I like having an old reliable. My 2003 wested goat is my perfect jacket, and my AB deluxe is my perfect hat (I told you that I like to REALLY like my gear ). Heck Bink has gotten me into fountain pens, and I have amassed a grand total of 3 right now (this could change) but right now, I have one that I go back to over and over. If anything, I'M the weirdo...

Ok, back to these kip whips! I should be getting mine today!!

[IndianaBravo]

Great Hollowpond, hope it is a sunny day in your neck of the woods and you can take that bad boy out for a session!

Cheers

IndianaBravo

[Hollowpond]

Supposed to be sunny and 67 degrees...but if not, I work at a school and there's nothing like the sound of a cracking whip in the gymnasium!!!!

[IndianaBravo]

Geez, another teacher here. I believe on this thread alone there are three of us

[kwad]

Congrats on getting that 8 plaite DelCarpio, HollowPond.
If I would have had the cash in hand at the time, I would have snatched that one up in a heartbeat!


Also,

Thanks to Graeme and Bernardo for the lesson in the different leather tanning processes! Great info guys! I guess you can't tell whip by its color!

(However, I still think the whip from the "Stay out of the Light" scene was probably kip )

[Hollowpond]

I have it sitting in my lap right now. It is AWESOME!!! Cracks like a dream. Alot heavier than I expected, but as everyone says about Bernardo, it's expertly balanced. Love it, love it, love it!!! Oh and best of all...TOTALLY Ick Free! Thanks Bernardo and thanks COW member ecwhips!

[Hollowpond]

I will also have to say, that while this is a kip whip (hee hee, it rhymes..) it has the more LC and TOD orangish tones, than the whitish/brownish tones of Darren's kip's from Graeme.

Travis

[G-Roberts]

Hey Hollowpond, Im sure you will love your Bernardo kip. I also expressed interest in it, but I guess I didnt make the "A" list. Graeme, I forgot that your avatar is indeed my whip! Ive only used Pecard on it. Maybe the sunshine here in Spain has something to do with the color. In any case I really havent taken it out since Christmas. Nothing but rain lately.

Cheers!

IndianaBravo

That may be true, each time I have been to spain I always come back with a golden tan. Anywhere else, I have more of a dirty brown tan
I have to say this "Your a..a.. teacher??"
Graeme.

[IndianaBravo]

Hey Hollowpond, Im sure you will love your Bernardo kip. I also expressed interest in it, but I guess I didnt make the "A" list. Graeme, I forgot that your avatar is indeed my whip! Ive only used Pecard on it. Maybe the sunshine here in Spain has something to do with the color. In any case I really havent taken it out since Christmas. Nothing but rain lately.

Cheers!

IndianaBravo

That may be true, each time I have been to spain I always come back with a golden tan. Anywhere else, I have more of a dirty brown tan
I have to say this "Your a..a.. teacher??"
Graeme.

Teacher, yep part time yuk yuk, but not one of those teachers that you see in "Pink Floyd" The Wall ( I'll bet there are a few of those in you neck of the woods ) Naw, I teach the English language to a buncha nervous execs. I wear a tweed jacket and, as often as I can, I turn around and write the word "neolithic" on the blackboard. Once, somebody actually got the film reference, made my day!

Cheers!

Bravo

[Hollowpond]

Welllll, I'm just about off to school myself, and I feel an ol' The Law of Conservation of Energy lesson in me today. Might as well take my new whip to school!

[IndianaBravo]

Have fun! Lets see a pic of the whip in action when you get a chance.

Bravo