Once Again Concerning Midland Whips

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:00 pm

I'm not yet at the point of being frustrated, but let's just say that I am concerned about my order with Midland Whips.

What I want here is for any of our COW members who have outstanding OR recently filled orders with Midland Whips to come on and let us know WHEN you placed your order, WHEN Graeme shipped your order (if he in fact has made that claim), and IF or WHEN you received your order. This will give the rest of us an idea about how up to date Graeme is in fulfilling his orders and when we can expect our packages.

Graeme told me that he shipped my order on Dec 17th, 2010 from England to California. That was 6 weeks ago. My understanding is that there has been a lot of shipping delays to the US coming out of the UK this season and that therefore this time-line is not unreasonable. That said, I've had no communication with Graeme since Dec 21st, the day he told me that he had already shipped my order.

So, if you are in, or have recently been in my position, let us all know so that we can rest assured that this is perhaps only a shipping delay, and not a delay on the part of the whipmaker. I've always enjoyed doing business with Graeme, and have enjoyed his product. It irks me that he is not a more common character around these parts of late, but as long as he is fulfilling his orders he's okay in my book and can spend his free time browsing whatever sites he wishes. I do think he should answer his emails through this site, though.

Sincerely,

Daren Henry Wilkerson

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:47 pm

Great idea Daren.

Order and payment sent; 3/24/10.
Estimated shipping date; 4/30/10.
To this date, no whip received.

Here's my story,

I contacted him on 4/30/10 and was told it would be a few more weeks (death in the family).
I contated him again on 6/27/10, received no response (however message was read).
Sent another message on 8/09/10, still no response (but, as before the message was read).
Sent another on 8/23/10, same as before.......message read, no response.

Finally received response on 9/15/10, at which time I was quoted "another 2 months" (was in accident and unable to respond to email/pm's).

Contacted him again on 12/13/10, once again, the message was read but no response.
My last message was sent on 1/09/11, but is still sitting unread in my outbox.

I am beyond frustrated.
He takes the time to check his inbox, but, can't be bothered to respond.
When he does respond, it is only to make excuses and give me another BS shipping date.
Phone numbers and email addresses on his website begin to dissapear, and now his only listed phone number no longer belongs to him.

I EVEN APOLOGIZED TO HIM FOR BEING IMPATIENT!!!!

At this point, I don't even know if I want the #$%%^ whip!
I'd ask for my money back, but, I'm sure he would not respond.

I don't have money falling out of my kiester, so I really do not appreciate when someone takes my money and only gives me excuses. I've tried to stay positive about it, but, I'm done.

Graeme, if you end up reading this....

EITHER PRODUCE THE WHIP I PAID FOR WITHIN THE NEXT 30 DAYS

OR

GIVE ME BACK THE MONEY YOU TOOK FROM ME!!!

hit80s · Post by **hit80s** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:20 pm

That is too bad from what I have read he is a great whipmaker,

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:35 pm

Hits,

That's exactly why I went with him.
Everyone had said what a great maker he is (was?).

I had even planned on buying a second whip from him (a kip hide CS).
I have decided I will not be buying any further whips from him (regardless of the outcome of this transaction).

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:25 pm

I'm a but concerned for Graeme. I have a whip I'm waiting for myself and I had no contact in a while. I find him to be a upstanding guy and I hope everything is alright with him.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:10 pm

BendingOak wrote:I'm a but concerned for Graeme. I have a whip I'm waiting for myself and I had no contact in a while. I find him to be a upstanding guy and I hope everything is alright with him.

A noble sentiment, John. Indeed I have always found dealing with Graeme to be a pleasure. I don't like the idea of Graeme ripping anybody off, so it would seem natural that if he isn't communicating, then perhaps something is wrong, and yet there is something fishy about phone numbers being changed and emails being read but not answered. I feel for KWAD, he seems to have received less than courteous treatment from our colleague. I just wish that if something is wrong with Graeme, (and he has told us before about problems he's encountered), that he would give us all another update. I am friends with him on Facebook as well, and while its hard to glean any real information there, and I haven't communicated with him there either, he seems alive and well from what little I can gather from his status.

Funny enough, he actual posted this whip back in October and confirmed that it was indeed one of the three whips I ordered. http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49095" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The other two are another 6 footer like the one I already have from him, and then a whip, just like the Young Indy from the post, but with a blue instead of a red handle.

He was keeping pretty good communication with me after his accident and right up until telling me that the whips had finally shipped. Problem is, they just aren't here. That doesn't mean that they won't arrive or that Graeme has done anything wrong, but as I've stated before, he didn't give me a tracking number, which apparently had/has been his usual M.O.

Still, I've got my fingers crossed. Hang in there, KWAD. You too, John! Thanks for chiming in, I really appreciate your presence here, especially since you are a vendor.

DHW

coronado3 · Post by **coronado3** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:35 pm

anyone live near him?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:15 pm

I try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt first. I can't say Im not a little concerned because I am.

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:32 pm

I'm concerned as well knowing I may not get my whips in Mid Feb. But I do hope the guy is ok. Do you think that maybe since he's backed up he's just too swamped to do anything besides work in his shop?

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:54 pm

Honestly it takes all of a two minutes to email people...and if someone's been waiting since april (almost 9 months) at a rate of one whip every 2 days working 5 days a week, that'd mean he was backed up over 90 whips at that point when people ordered...and that's not including the month's wait time he was estimating.

Even giving him one whip every 4 days still has him backed up 45 whips before you ordered. So either he was very unrealistic in quoting you a months wait when there were that many whips ahead of you, or it's something else.

There aren't too many whip makers with a 45 whip backlog or even half of that at a 22 whip backlog. And the people with 22 - 90 whip backlog know how long it takes them to make a whip and can give you a realistic wait time.

The fact that he's disappeared and has disappeared before doesn't give me much confidence in him. I know what you are saying, there was a medical emergency before when he disappeared...and maybe there was, I don't know what he told people who had ordered from him during that time, but I know he didn't contact those people during that time. It only takes a few minutes to send out a bulk email to people to let them know whats up.

The other thing that struck me as odd was after reappeared last time he made a few whips, that weren't orders he had on the books and sold those to people ahead of people that were waiting. His reason was he wanted to make sure he still could plait. Now that's admirable, but wouldn't a better plan be to make whips for people that had ordered and if they didn't turn out well then sell them as seconds?

I've been following this saga for a while and been keeping my opinions to myself, however every new bit of information that comes up makes this seem shiftier and shiftier to me.

I hope everyone gets what they ordered or their money back (plus interest)!

Louie

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:50 am

John, I try to give people the benifit of the doubt as well, which I've done with Graeme for many months now. However, I've finally reached the end of my rope with this situation.

Louie,

The last time he disappeared, I received no explanation.
He did not even respond to my PM's (they would be removed from my outbox each time he logged in, so he must have seen them). You're right. It does only take a few minutes to respond to an email. He had time to log in and check his, but, just didn't bother to respond.
However, after making my concerns public here on the forum, he responded right away.

What is bothering me now (besides his absense) is his lack of a valid phone number.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:52 am

BullWhipBorton wrote:
DarenHenryW wrote:
That said, perhaps the moderators have some muscle they could exercise here? Dan? What can be done if this goes on much longer and more people with outstanding orders are left out to dry?

Daren if you wish to submit an official complaint we can send him a warning. Realistically what we can do if he doesn’t respond or make the situation right is revoke his vendor status and either suspend or ban him from Club Obi-Wan. However if he has pulled a disappearing act (he hasn’t logged in to the site since December 21st 2010) that doesn’t do much good for those who already have orders pending. Unfortunately out side of those actions we don't have a way to force him honor an order or reimburse payment.

Sadly I’ve seen these situations before, some whip makers tend to be all talk and little action, others just get in over their heads and can’t handle the work load with whips being ordered, paid for in full and either taking years to arrive, or never arriving at all. We are all human and sometimes things happen, delays occur, its inevitable but there is no justification for a lack of communication, especially when compiled with mistakes and excuses.

Hind sight is 20/20 but this might be a good time to stress the importance doing business with professional whip makers who not only have experience, but who have also established themselves with both good reputations and solid business practices. You may pay a little more, but you are guaranteed quality and seldom if ever have to deal with this type of drama and uncertainty with orders. With all that said though, I do hope this all works out and that you get the whips you ordered sooner rather then later and they meet your expectations.

Dan

Btw I like the new matched pair.

Perfectly well spoken and handled, Dan, just as I knew you would. Thank you for checking in here and laying it down for all of us who are concerned. As to your comment that its best to do business with professional whip makers, I think you are very right about that. I'm learning that the hard way with Graeme and Mike Brower, who isn't even a member here. For me, having purchased whips from the likes of Terry Jacka, David Morgan, Joe Strain, and Bernardo Del Carpio, amongst others, I felt that seeing what some budding whip makers had to offer didn't seem like a big deal. Indeed, my first order with Graeme was hassle-free and satisfying. He sure made a fantastic whip for an unbelievable price and was a strong and respectful communicator. I use the whip all the time in fact; after almost a year of serious use (and even a little abuse) it's holding up and still performing very well. I honestly still don't believe that Graeme is attempting to take the money and run with my follow up order. In fact, I'm still 90% sure that my whips are literally stuck in transit as I type this. I hardly think that Graeme never sent them. The fact that he posted a picture of one of the whips he made for me doesn't really prove anything, but its something . . .

Having said that, I do think that he's ready for some kind of "poke". Even if the message doesn't get to him until well after all of our whips arrive, I think he needs to be told not only by us, but by the admins themselves that he has broken our trust and that he will need to earn it back. Even if my order arrives, and I really hope it does, I can't in good faith recommend him to anyone until he proves himself a better communicator. (And would he even respond to an email from a new customer asking for a new order, I wonder?) If our whips never arrive, and he does take the money and run, well, I guess he'll lose his membership and his name will be "mud", and that will be that. Still and all, I don't think that's where we are. I think he's got some bona fide distraction which is preventing him from taking his commitment to his customers and his membership seriously. The question is, how serious is this distraction? Is he, god forbid, in a coma? Or is he just too busy and depressed to deal with life and all of us? Its one of those unfortunate circumstances where you almost feel like "the guy better be in serious trouble to be avoiding me because this is unacceptable."

So, let me just say that, even if it doesn't really do any good, I AM asking that you send out whatever message to him that you can chronicling our collective grievances. I understand that he may not even read it any time soon, if ever, but I think it needs to be sent out regardless.

It's possible that he's shutting all of us out so that he can focus on all the orders he's already taken in, avoiding what he sees as irrelevant communication to people to whom he's already sent out fulfilled orders, but that's why I posted this: http://indygear.com/cow/viewtopic.php?f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 56#p729156" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

. . . so that others who feel shut out can voice their grievances and/or assure us that they are receiving their orders. I mean, if this guy is swamped with orders, there must be a pretty good amount of people, a fair amount COW members I would assume, who will have something to say. If not, then how swamped with orders can he really be? I mean, I'm sorry, but he's no Steve Delk here . . .

Okay, I think I've said enough on this for now. So, Dan, if you wouldn't mind, send whatever message you can. I would really appreciate it. Maybe it will get his attention where the rest of our messages have not.

Thanks,

Daren Henry W.

PS Glad you like the whips. Can't wait to show them to you next November.

DHW

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:59 am

kwad wrote:
What is bothering me now (besides his absense) is his lack of a valid phone number.

Has anyone besides me tried the number on his site? I called once and left a message, it was just a generic greeting, not one from any particular person. I then tried again and hung up. Then I quickly got a call back from a gentleman saying that it was not the number of the person I was looking for.

The person on the other end certainly was British, but I didn't talk to him long enough to establish whether the number was new to him or old. I may have not called the right number is my point. All of my dealings with Graeme up to this point have been through PM's here on COW. We are Facebook friends, but I've never communicated with him through there (though I have sent a message to his profile recently.)

I would feel bad if everyone is assuming that his phone number is no longer working only because I said so. I don't want to be the authority on the invalidity of his phone number.

Daren

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:28 am

kwad wrote:John, I try to give people the benifit of the doubt as well, which I've done with Graeme for many months now. However, I've finally reached the end of my rope with this situation.

Louie,

The last time he disappeared, I received no explanation.
He did not even respond to my PM's (they would be removed from my outbox each time he logged in, so he must have seen them). You're right. It does only take a few minutes to respond to an email. He had time to log in and check his, but, just didn't bother to respond.
However, after making my concerns public here on the forum, he responded right away.

What is bothering me now (besides his absense) is his lack of a valid phone number.

I understand completely where you are coming from as well as everyone else here. I'm with the rest of you guys. I have made my payment and have been waiting for my whip. It was to be a x-mas gift for a friend. I'm still waiting like the rest of you guys. I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'm scratching my head as well.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:29 am

I don't know what to say, but I hope everything is alright with Graeme and everyone get's their whips. It really must be frustrating. I don't know if his absence is because of his accident that he had some months ago or not, but I hope everything turns out alright.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:23 am

I noticed on his website that he only takes PayPal as payment.....If that's how you paid, then it's my understanding that you are protected against not receiving goods and can take the matter up with PayPal directly.......I'm not saying that you won't get your stuff....but it might relieve some stress knowing that you can get your dosh back....

That said.....lets all hope that Graeme is all fine and dandy and all this is just a misunderstanding..

Ian

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:28 am

Ian wrote:I noticed on his website that he only takes PayPal as payment.....If that's how you paid, then it's my understanding that you are protected against not receiving goods and can take the matter up with PayPal directly.......I'm not saying that you won't get your stuff....but it might relieve some stress knowing that you can get your dosh back....

That said.....lets all hope that Graeme is all fine and dandy and all this is just a misunderstanding..

Ian

Good to know, Ian. I will keep that in mind. If I don't hear from him or get a package in the next month or so, I'll look into asking for a refund through Paypal. That info is much appreciated.

And yes, I do hope that Graeme is okay. In spite of all my whining around here, I just want my order and want to see Graeme do well, he is a talented whipmaker.

Daren

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:41 am

No problem......I know he's very talented.....after seeing the Oakster's whip, I was getting ready to order one myself....Oh well...

Ian

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:44 am

Ian wrote:No problem......I know he's very talented.....after seeing the Oakster's whip, I was getting ready to order one myself....Oh well...

Ian

Well, if Graeme gets back on the boards a little and starts answering some emails (and my whips show up!) then maybe you still can!

For the record, I hope all my whining is all for naught. I look forward to apologizing to Graeme for my lack of faith when I get my package.

DHW

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:06 am

Ian wrote:I noticed on his website that he only takes PayPal as payment.....If that's how you paid, then it's my understanding that you are protected against not receiving goods and can take the matter up with PayPal directly.......I'm not saying that you won't get your stuff....but it might relieve some stress knowing that you can get your dosh back....

That said.....lets all hope that Graeme is all fine and dandy and all this is just a misunderstanding..

Ian

You must file your claim within 45 days of the payment date.
If you do, paypal will refund the money to your account and investigate the matter.

Unfortunately, after 45 days, they will take no action. You can still file a complaint, however, no refund and no investigation. (I know, I already tried.

)

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:12 am

kwad wrote:
Ian wrote:I noticed on his website that he only takes PayPal as payment.....If that's how you paid, then it's my understanding that you are protected against not receiving goods and can take the matter up with PayPal directly.......I'm not saying that you won't get your stuff....but it might relieve some stress knowing that you can get your dosh back....

That said.....lets all hope that Graeme is all fine and dandy and all this is just a misunderstanding..

Ian
You must file your claim within 45 days of the payment date.
If you do, paypal will refund the money to your account and investigate the matter.

Unfortunately, after 45 days, they will take no action. You can still file a complaint, however, no refund and no investigation. (I know, I already tried. )

Bugger!

Ian

IndianaBravo · Post by **IndianaBravo** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:35 am

My story basically mirrors kwad´s. Order placed 10 months ago and the last contact I had with Graeme was in September. When threads like this one begin popping up, it signals a death rattle to somebody´s credibility and good standing as a vendor. It is unfortunate that things have taken this turn. My initial dealings with Graeme were most pleasant and I have sung his praises on this board many times. This lack of communication is simply unacceptable. I hope he makes an appearance around here soon and explains himself.

In the same boat,

IndianaBravo

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:34 pm

Hey Bravo,

I totally agree.
Credibility goes straight down the drain when a vendor refuses to communicate with his paying customers.

In all honesty, I now doubt every excuse he has ever given me and don't really care to hear the next one.

All I want at this point is my money back so that I can use it towards the purchase of a whip from a respected whip maker.
An apology for wasting my time would also be nice, but, I seriously doubt that I'll get either.

whiskyman · Post by **whiskyman** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:45 pm

This is very disappointing news. Midland whips was producing some nice looking whips and seemed to have found a good niche in the Indy market. I feel sorry for you guys and hope you get either your whips or your money soon!

Post by **BullWhipBorton** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:49 pm

Daren, I'll do what I can on this end.

If a whip maker is at that point that they feel they can sell whips and take orders & payment for work then not only should that work be of sufficient quality but they should also be able to keep up good business practices and get orders out in a reasonably timely manner with out excuses. If you find yourself waiting considerably longer then the approximate time quoted when you placed your order (especially with a standard order) there are probably bigger issues going on then just a backlog of work.

While I hope Graeme is alright and this all works out, given his actions or lack of action in this case along with the growing number of concerns and unfilled orders. What credibility he had established is ruined. Graeme owes his customers an explanation and either a finished product or a refund.

Dan

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:03 pm

On graemes website he states (under about him) that he doesn't make whips full time. Does that mean he can only do it on weekends? And is so backed up that he is catching up only on nights and weekends? Or does he in fact say that he does it full time now?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:10 pm

imtheflash wrote:On graemes website he states (under about him) that he doesn't make whips full time. Does that mean he can only do it on weekends? And is so backed up that he is catching up only on nights and weekends? Or does he in fact say that he does it full time now?

I don't think he is a full time whip maker.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:16 pm

BendingOak wrote:
imtheflash wrote:On graemes website he states (under about him) that he doesn't make whips full time. Does that mean he can only do it on weekends? And is so backed up that he is catching up only on nights and weekends? Or does he in fact say that he does it full time now?

I don't think he is a full time whip maker.

That's the understatement of the year, I think.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:24 pm

DarenHenryW wrote:
BendingOak wrote:
imtheflash wrote:On graemes website he states (under about him) that he doesn't make whips full time. Does that mean he can only do it on weekends? And is so backed up that he is catching up only on nights and weekends? Or does he in fact say that he does it full time now?

I don't think he is a full time whip maker.
That's the understatement of the year, I think.

I didn't mean it that way but I understand. I'm getting really concerned. I was told my whip shipped before the big holiday. Then when I e-mailed him in the beginning of the year I did get a reply. I told him I have yet to receive it he said it must be lost he will have to make another. That's the last I heard from him.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:30 pm

BendingOak wrote: I was told my whip shipped before the big holiday. Then when I e-mailed him in the beginning of the year I did get a reply. I told him I have yet to receive it he said it must be lost he will have to make another. That's the last I heard from him.

Thanks for this nugget of information, John. I think this says quite a bit. Really, why would a business person of sound mind so quickly say that he would make another so quickly after being told that the first was lost? It speaks more to a need to placate rather than assure. If had John had written him after a few months, this would indeed be a proper reply, but not after only a couple of weeks, especially during this holiday season. I haven't really been bothered by this until now, 6 weeks after it supposedly shipped. I figured the weather, the distance and customs was keeping my package from me. Now I'm leaning well towards thinking that he never sent me a darn thing.

Daren

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:03 pm

Here's what I propose:

If you have paid Graeme, any amount, through paypal, even though I'm willing to bet that most of us are past the 45 day mark, I think that if enough of us submit complaints or ask for refunds, Paypal will have to have some sort of reaction. If only one of us do it, I don't think anything will happen. But if 4 or 5 of us, possibly many more, do it, I think we may have a shot at getting Paypal's attention and perhaps receiving refunds.

I'm not going to do anything until I get at least a handful of you letting me know that you are willing to join me. I think a unified attack is the only thing that will work.

So? Who's with me?

Daren Henry W

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:08 pm

I called paypal today and they don't cover made to order goods period (as was told to me from the accounts department). SO if we get refunds they will have to come from graeme directly. And as far as the whips are concerned, I ordered mine in October of 2010. You guys ordered yours way before me, it sounds like there is no hope for me. This is troubling me because Graeme makes you pay in FULL even before your order gets made. Penman Hat Co. (john) only ask a deposit initially (but even if John asked in full I would pay it because I trust him and he has a reputation that is outstanding)..... I'm not saying it's a scheme on Graemes part but something really smells fishy (obviously). I'm currently trying to find a way to get a hold of his real number if the one on his website is indeed fake.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:10 pm

This is what Paypal says:

"Transactions older than 45 days cannot be disputed but should still be reported. PayPal tracks seller performance trends in the event we need to take action to protect other buyers."

At the very least, we should want to protect other buyers, but I'm really hoping that if we all make the same arguments, that we were patient because of "international shipping delays" then perhaps there's hope for those of us who paid long before the 45 day mark.

Daren

PS I'm really mad now, can you tell?

DHW

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:11 pm

I feel like our best bet in light of the fact that paypal told me im S.O.L. is to find some way to TALK to Graeme, by finding a number that works.

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:12 pm

They are investigating him as of today, I filed the highest thing you could which is a claim. they said fraud department will conduct an investigation.

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:13 pm

their 45 day thing does not apply to made to order goods as was explained to me by the paypal accounts rep.

BEST CASE SCENERIO;
he has a job monday through friday. and he makes one whip a weekend if that. and because of life he got so swamped that he is in way over his head. And he isnt responding to emails becasuse he will "finish them when he finishes them".

He NEEDS to give people their money back IF IF IF IF IF IF he has it

kwad · Post by **kwad** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:19 pm

I previously tried to file a complaint (which is "on file"), but, was told I was SOL as well due to the 45 day thing.

I'm with Daren. Lets all band together! That's what these forums are all about right?
Hopefully my previously filed claim will be counted.

Flash,
Good work man!
I must admit, I feel kind of guilty. I remember when you posted on the lounge that you had just made an order and I did not warn you. I wanted to, but, I was still holding out hope.

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:23 pm

what i was told was that the investigation at this point is between paypal and midland whips. They know what we know, and as midland is currently a paypal verified member they are taking it seriously. But there is no way for us to know the outcome of the investigation... only when graeme calls and emails us that he will refund us... if he has the money to do so, which to be honest is what concerns me at this point. Any refunds at this time must come from GRAEME not PAYPAL.

side note: as far as paypal is concerned when you order something that at that moment you can not hold in your hand then you are NOT covered and it doens't matter if you want a refund on day 2.

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:41 pm

Kwad don't worry about it there is no way you could have known it would go this far. And daren is right, we should band together. I'm currently looking at UK registries to find a telephone number linked with Graeme Roberts. When I find one that seems valid I will Call and of course give the number via private message to you guys should I find one. . . however i can't stress enough saying this... I'm owed about 550.00 dollars. not to mention all you guys . . . I hope he still has it..... that is what has me extremely concerned.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:51 pm

imtheflash wrote:I called paypal today and they don't cover made to order goods period (as was told to me from the accounts department). SO if we get refunds they will have to come from graeme directly. And as far as the whips are concerned, I ordered mine in October of 2010. You guys ordered yours way before me, it sounds like there is no hope for me. This is troubling me because Graeme makes you pay in FULL even before your order gets made. Penman Hat Co. (john) only ask a deposit initially (but even if John asked in full I would pay it because I trust him and he has a reputation that is outstanding)..... I'm not saying it's a scheme on Graemes part but something really smells fishy (obviously). I'm currently trying to find a way to get a hold of his real number if the one on his website is indeed fake.

WOW, more bad news. One thing's for sure, we need to get Graeme banned from Paypal at the very least. Knowing that Paypal doesn't cover made to order goods is important to know. I think for our esteemed vendors (I'm looking at you, Oak) it's a non-issue because of clear and present positive track records. But, as I was just discussing with Oak over the phone about this, Graeme's actions hurt ALL VENDORS, especially NEW ones. I think that reputation is everything in this business, and especially in this niche. I hate to think I am ruining Graeme's reputation, but I realize that I'm not; he is ruining it for himself.

I no longer believe that he is having any personal problems, at least not ones that anyone wants to hear about, because too many people have come forth with stories of excuses originating from weeks and months previous to Graeme's latest disappearance. This is just too much monkey business for me to be involved in and I'm actually ready to write Graeme off as a thief. Sure, worst case scenario, he's lying in a coma somewhere and didn't leave his log on info with his girlfriend, but that wouldn't explain all the shenanigans that people have reported from before his disappearance, as I said.

Dan, if you are reading this, I think Graeme Roberts should be banned from this site as a vendor (but not as a member) until such time that he can produce whips and/or refunds, and a proper apology and explanation for his actions. I know it won't do much good for those of us who gave him money already, but its something.

As to Paypal, please everyone, write in your disputes with this vendor so that more people don't suffer the same fate.

Sincerely,
Daren Henry W

PS Yes, it bothers me that my review of the one and only whip I bought from him is currently on his site under the testimonials section. Take it from me folks, I take most of it back (it's still a good whip . . . )

DHW

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:12 pm

Ok so did a little investigating. and i found on graemes myspace that he lives in walsall in west midlands england. and i found 6 numbers for a G. Roberts in that community and I will try them tommorow. But Daren or kwad I can email you the list of the numbers at your request.

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:13 pm

Well, boys, I sent in my dispute claims. There were three: one for my down payment from April, and the other two for the second and third installments from October 5th, 2010. Being that it was my second order, Graeme did not make me pay in full, rather I paid in installments until such time that he was ready to make my whips. I mean, I guess I did pay in full, but well . . . oh, you get the idea.

My whips or my money, Graeme. Come on, pal, don't be like this!

Daren

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:14 pm

DarenHenryW wrote:
imtheflash wrote:I called paypal today and they don't cover made to order goods period (as was told to me from the accounts department). SO if we get refunds they will have to come from graeme directly. And as far as the whips are concerned, I ordered mine in October of 2010. You guys ordered yours way before me, it sounds like there is no hope for me. This is troubling me because Graeme makes you pay in FULL even before your order gets made. Penman Hat Co. (john) only ask a deposit initially (but even if John asked in full I would pay it because I trust him and he has a reputation that is outstanding)..... I'm not saying it's a scheme on Graemes part but something really smells fishy (obviously). I'm currently trying to find a way to get a hold of his real number if the one on his website is indeed fake.

WOW, more bad news. One thing's for sure, we need to get Graeme banned from Paypal at the very least. Knowing that Paypal doesn't cover made to order goods is important to know. I think for our esteemed vendors (I'm looking at you, Oak) it's a non-issue because of clear and present positive track records. But, as I was just discussing with Oak over the phone about this, Graeme's actions hurt ALL VENDORS, especially NEW ones. I think that reputation is everything in this business, and especially in this niche. I hate to think I am ruining Graeme's reputation, but I realize that I'm not; he is ruining it for himself.

I no longer believe that he is having any personal problems, at least not ones that anyone wants to hear about, because too many people have come forth with stories of excuses originating from weeks and months previous to Graeme's latest disappearance. This is just too much monkey business for me to be involved in and I'm actually ready to write Graeme off as a thief. Sure, worst case scenario, he's lying in a coma somewhere and didn't leave his log on info with his girlfriend, but that wouldn't explain all the shenanigans that people have reported from before his disappearance, as I said.

Dan, if you are reading this, I think Graeme Roberts should be banned from this site as a vendor (but not as a member) until such time that he can produce whips and/or refunds, and a proper apology and explanation for his actions. I know it won't do much good for those of us who gave him money already, but its something.

As to Paypal, please everyone, write in your disputes with this vendor so that more people don't suffer the same fate.

Sincerely,
Daren Henry W

PS Yes, it bothers me that my review of the one and only whip I bought from him is currently on his site under the testimonials section. Take it from me folks, I take most of it back (it's still a good whip . . . )

DHW

I totally agree Daren. John is proffesional and doesn't mess around. And I know all of this still not having recieved my first penman! (it comes in april

)

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:28 pm

Another clue I managed to glean is that he approved a friend request on Facebook for a fellow gearhead sometime around the 18th of January, so either he, or someone who has his Facebook log in info, is alive and well enough to at least do that. Since my last message to him through COW was January 11, I'd have to say that I'm being ignored. Again, he's in no coma . . .

Daren

DarenHenryW · Post by **DarenHenryW** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:30 pm

imtheflash wrote: I totally agree Daren. John is proffesional and doesn't mess around. And I know all of this still not having recieved my first penman! (it comes in april )

John's customer service is tops!

Vendors like John help me from losing my faith in mankind! (Unlike some vendors I know. Or thought I knew.)

DHW

imtheflash · Post by **imtheflash** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:32 pm

its tough because all I can do is ask for a refund. Because unfortunately we live in the states and he's in the UK. and there really isnt much that can be done about it

classicbullwhips · Post by **classicbullwhips** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:58 am

Hey Guys,

I am sorry to hear about the issues that you are facing. I am not sure if this will work but when you placed the order through paypal, if you used a credit card or bank card to make the payment you could see what they can due for goods/services not recieved. Just an idea hope this possibly can help.

Keep Crackin,
James

PS - Just curious for those who placed orders what was the length of the whips you ordered (just curious

)

WhipDude · Post by **WhipDude** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:31 am

Good point James.

My self and relative has a similar issue before. I had bought an item with a credit card. I called the bank immediately and they called them up. Basically told them they were from the bank and being called a fraud. Sort of like a scare tactic I suppose. In the end, I did get every bit of my money back from the people.

giovanniceleste · Post by **giovanniceleste** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:29 am

This story sounds very strange

I know his good reputation in whipmaking
I fear that Graeme himself into some trouble
I feel sorry for you guys and hope you get either your whips or your money soon!
All the best
G

louiefoxx · Post by **louiefoxx** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:40 am

To track him down you might want to find Tony at Essential whips, if I recall (but I could be wrong) it was Tony that helped Graeme learn to plait. He might have a phone number or a bit of info.