Defending yourself against a bullwhip attack.

[Rabittooth]

-Rabittooth

[geordie jones]

excellent, LOL

[Indiana Joe]

Thanks, Rabittooth!

On a serious note, I am wondering if anyone in the The Club knows how to truly defend against a bullwhip attack? I know in the martial arts that a few of the Chinese styles train with the bullwhip as one of the many weapons in their arsenal. They like the bullwhip's speed, ability to confuse by distraction and (with another weapon) redirection, and the whip keeps an opponent at a distance (that's what makes the toon funny).

Perhaps someone in COW with an extensive martial arts background may know? Even so, hard to describe in a post, eh?

Just curious...

I.J.

[MK]

Now I know you didn't draw that. You wouldn't have put cargo pockets or a watch on Indy. Where did you find this?

[Rabittooth]

Now I know you didn't draw that. You wouldn't have put cargo pockets or a watch on Indy. Where did you find this?

It was posted over on the NIM.

-Rabittooth

[Minnesota Jones]

That's too funny! Thanks for sharing that Rab!
You DA man!

[INDIANA_7]

Hey,

I personally would use my department issued O.C.SPRAY (a form of mace).If that dosen't work than there's always my ruger 9mm.After that I would probably confiscate the whip and add it to my collection!!.

Best regards,
INDIANA_7

[Paul_Stenhouse]

Dear I.J.,

Those that have studied martial arts would tell you that you should first and foremost try to leave the area.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

[Frank Wolf]

Howdy.

I have trained both Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts for several years. I haven't encountered actual whips in training but different kinds of chains and ropes where used and I suppose most of the techniques work against whips too.

I think that getting close enough is one of the best ways to defend yourself but this can be quite tricky and possibly hazardous since you have to enter the attackers 'close range' area where elbows and knees become extremely effective.

Another way is to have a long enough weapon and to try get the attackers weapon to wrap around it so you can disarm your opponent.

It would be kind of cool to test the techniques against a long whip, but I haven't figured out how to do it safely.

Thanks, Rabittooth!

On a serious note, I am wondering if anyone in the The Club knows how to truly defend against a bullwhip attack? I know in the martial arts that a few of the Chinese styles train with the bullwhip as one of the many weapons in their arsenal. They like the bullwhip's speed, ability to confuse by distraction and (with another weapon) redirection, and the whip keeps an opponent at a distance (that's what makes the toon funny).

Perhaps someone in COW with an extensive martial arts background may know? Even so, hard to describe in a post, eh?

Just curious...

I.J.

[Michaelson]

Smith and Wesson HE, or the like. (grins) Regards. Michaelson

[Indiana Joe]

It would be kind of cool to test the techniques against a long whip, but I haven't figured out how to do it safely

Yeah, I know what you mean. Most asian teachers here in America used to teach with an asian style which means you can get seriously hurt. I personally have studied under sifu Pai of Orlando (Chinese) and grandmaster Nam K Hyong (Korean) of Bloomington. Each used to be quite "rough" on students back in the eighties until many parents complained. In fact, one student had his calf sliced in practice by a broad sword b/c he incorrectly performed a defensive move.

Another way is to have a long enough weapon and to try get the attackers weapon to wrap around it so you can disarm your opponent.

I thought about that too. One thing to consider is the rate of speed at which the whip is travelling. It seems to me that a person trained with a whip could use it to disorient, misdirect one's attention, and strike all in an extremely short period of time. I know the whip is a weapon used in some forms of kung fu such as shaolin boxing, but I just haven't met anyone as of yet that's trained with a whip in that manner.

Indy gave us the answer in Raiders, Smith and Wesson HE, or the like. (grins)

That's it!!!

[Frank Wolf]

Indy gave us the answer in Raiders, Smith and Wesson HE, or the like. (grins)

That's it!!!

Sorry guys, that works only against attacks with a sword...

[JerseyJones]

Dear I.J.,

Those that have studied martial arts would tell you that you should first and foremost try to leave the area.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Absolutely. Escape without indcident first ! Well said Paul.

Ken

[IndianaCollins]

Escape without indcident first
Ken

YES!~ Live to fight another day!
I'm currently reading The Action Hero's Handbook, and it teaches that if outnumbered or at total disadvantage, Escape, live to fight another day, to return in a sequel, unless the world's currently at stake. Right?

[Dakota Hurly]

I would use a .45 to defend against a bullwhip. LOL

[jerryrwm]

<chuckle>...as I see it, one step beyond the range of the whip and it is pretty much useless as a weapon. Might make your ears ring a bit.

Or two steps inside the extreme end of the cracking point and it becomes a wrapping tool with minimal injury and not many whipthrowers will be able to adjust the cracking point 6' closer than when the whip was thrown, right in the middle of the throw. I can adjust it some, but my arm is not 6' long to be able to move the crack point closer to me that much.

As an offensive weapon, the whip would be better used by grasping it down the thong and swinging it like a club.

Where do you people live that attacks by bullwhip weilding thugs has become a problem? Are there sub chapters of gangs called "Blood Whips" and "Crip Whips" around? I believe I would be talking to a real estate agent shortly if it really become epidemic.

Thanks for a good chuckle.

[Spatterdash]

I think some may ATTEMPT to casually grab a whip while it's tip is airborne, thus recieving a painful surprise. A skilled whip-handler is not gonna let the whip flow lazily about in a combat situation. I would think that short whips, especially a pair, would daunting and nigh on impossible to track visually.

I also have a firm belief in the bullwhip's ability to intimidate. Pulling out a bullwhip in a confrontation is like pulling out a sword or a battle axe. Most people have never been wounded by one, have vivd imaginations, and tend to assume that if you are crazy enough to produce such a weapon, you just might be good enough to use it.

[Swindiana]

Now I know you didn't draw that. You wouldn't have put cargo pockets or a watch on Indy. Where did you find this?

That is Bizarro by Dan Piraro, http://www.bizarro.com/.
One of my favorites.

Regards,
Swindy

[Shalimar]

Well 1st off.. LMAO @ the pic.. thats a classic for sure

As fro defending against such I have studied martial arts for a long time now and have learned a few ways to defend against a whip. However none are the "safest" going nor would I try to teach such in here.

I will however teach the "best" way to do so as I was taught:

Have a gun handy...

[Indiana Joe]

Have y'all seen http://www.whipboxing.com or checked out http://www.aussiewhipmaker.com

[agent5]

All I can say is that after watching what Canasta can do with one whip in each hand, I'd say there is little you can do to defend yourself short of getting really, really hurt first. It appeared to me that an experieced whip handler can create an area in which you cannot enter without being cut up very badly. With both whips bearing down on you, snapping 2 or more cracks a second, it seems obvious that you can literally be beaten to death.

I've accidentally hit myself several times and it hurts alot. But to think of an experienced handler actually trying to inflict damages on you is a very scary thought.

[auntsugar]

That is really funny. Like the kids in grade school having a playground fight.

[The_Edge]

I didn't even realize this thread was resurrected!

I love the bullwhip as a weapon. Sure it isn't a tactical weapon for a soldier but it is effective in its power to intimidate and inflict extremely painful yet superficial injury. If the handler is well trained in both the weaknesses and strengths of a whip, that is.

For instance, all of you guys who made the quip about a gun have to realize that a well trained handler is not going to stand fifty yards away waiting for you to draw your firearm. A bullwhip is a fast attack, first strike weapon. If a smart handler is going to deploy his/her bullwhip for offensive or defensive purposes you can bet that 1.) you will be in range and 2.) you'll have severe facial trauma before you ever get to your firearm. An even smarter whip handler will have vacated the situation with out sticking around to see if the injury inflicted was serious or not.

[Sergei]

May I quote David Morgan, under "Fancy Whip Handling" the sub section "Fast Whip Work" which appears on page 52 of my 1st edition book ("Whips and Whipmaking"):

Whips may be paired off with fast draw gun artists, either in contests of breaking ballons, etc., or in shows of the whip taking the gun. The limited information available on comparative rates would indicate that starting with gun in holster, whip lying out in front, a 14 foot stock whip is faster than a gun for equivalently skilled performers."

[Rumpled Fedora]

Hey, I have that cartoon on my wall!
Cool

[jerryrwm]

I believe that the whip is faster than the gun...but only for making noise. The object of a weapon is to inflict some degree of damage, and that's where a whip falls short as a weapon, especially when used by itself.

Granted, Canasta may be able to do some amazing things with a whip, Robert Dante can crack them fast (3 + cracks per sec.) Rapacious in Florida did over 250 cracks in a minute, Robert Duke can get the whip to do some pretty amazing things. But, and it's a huge But - they are simply cracking the whip. Not using it for a weapon.

Granted, a good whiphandler may get one or two good cracks off, but then the opponent should have either closed the distance between them, or retreated out of the range of the whip. Either one will render it ineffective. And the whip is not that fast. I know, I know..."the whip breaks the sound barrier causing the crack" Well folks, that speed is only the last few inches of the whip that is moving that fast. The rest back towards your throwing hand is traveling pretty slow.

And just how much damage do you think will be done by a whip? I know from personal expeience and from other acquaintenances that a cracker can cut, and a fall can hurt like the dickens. But it is not going to incapacitate anyone. Unless you wrap the lower legs and jerk the opponent down long enough so that you can jump on him.

Try this - place a target about the size of a softball on the end of a string say three feet long. Hang it up so that the target is about head height. Get another helper to stand off to the side out of harms way but even with the target. Now get the target swinging back and forth. Then take aim and hit the target. At the same time you crack the whip, have the helper walk forward theoretically closing the distance between you and the target. Then check and see how far he got before you hit the target again. I'll bet you a beer that the distance travelled was close to six feet. Kinda makes that 8' Morgan real useless now doesn't it?

As I said before the best way to use a whip as a weapon is to turn it around and use it as a club or sap. You'd have a much better chance of inflicting effective damage by hitting them with the knot end of the handle.

I think a person with two stout sticks could actually beat the fool out of a whiphandler. How? If he has the sticks in front of him in a defensive posture, the only thing that you as the whip attacker can do is try to get through the defensive barrier. How? Why wrap the whip around a stick and jerk it out of his hand. Then get the other one. But wait, first you have to get your whip unwrapped from around that first stick. And I'll bet you can get your opponent to stand still while you untangle and recock. Right! He'll be thumping on the back of your noggin with that other stick in the meantime.

Well, I've rambled on long enough. And the testosterone on this thread is over powering. Indy may have done it once, but he didn't get to many other chances at them if I recall. Ah the magic of the silver screen.

Just have a good laugh folks, and go out and do something fun with your whip.

Jerry R

[Indiana Joe]

May I quote David Morgan, under "Fancy Whip Handling" the sub section "Fast Whip Work" which appears on page 52 of my 1st edition book ("Whips and Whipmaking"):

Whips may be paired off with fast draw gun artists, either in contests of breaking ballons, etc., or in shows of the whip taking the gun. The limited information available on comparative rates would indicate that starting with gun in holster, whip lying out in front, a 14 foot stock whip is faster than a gun for equivalently skilled performers."

wow---with a 14 foot stockwhip nonetheless. That's incredible.

[The_Edge]

I believe that the whip is faster than the gun...but only for making noise. The object of a weapon is to inflict some degree of damage, and that's where a whip falls short as a weapon, especially when used by itself.

I'm sorry but I disagree. A whip, as a weapon, is in the same classification of non-lethal attack as pepper spray, telescoping baton or a kubaton. Just because the weapon does not inflict lethal or maming force does not make it an ineffective weapon. The belt around your waist, for instance, can be a very effective weapon against any number close quarter attacks.

Granted, Canasta may be able to do some amazing things with a whip, Robert Dante can crack them fast (3 + cracks per sec.) Rapacious in Florida did over 250 cracks in a minute, Robert Duke can get the whip to do some pretty amazing things. But, and it's a huge But - they are simply cracking the whip. Not using it for a weapon.

Exactly my point. Training with a whip for multiple cracks routines and training with a whip to inflict damage upon another human being are two different things. However, I have no doubt that the handlers listed above would be tough opponents.

Granted, a good whiphandler may get one or two good cracks off, but then the opponent should have either closed the distance between them, or retreated out of the range of the whip. Either one will render it ineffective. And the whip is not that fast. I know, I know..."the whip breaks the sound barrier causing the crack" Well folks, that speed is only the last few inches of the whip that is moving that fast. The rest back towards your throwing hand is traveling pretty slow.

A whip is not a weapon that is used by itself. You make note of the target closing in on the whip user but you fail to mention the handler moving in on the target. As I mentioned above, a whip is a fast attack, first strike weapon. It is meant to cause enough intimidation and pain to create hesitation in the attacker. This hesitation can either be in the form of fear or injury. Either way this small amount of pause can give the whip handler time to either move in on the target or escape the situation. The latter is usually the wiser choice.

And just how much damage do you think will be done by a whip? I know from personal expeience and from other acquaintenances that a cracker can cut, and a fall can hurt like the dickens. But it is not going to incapacitate anyone. Unless you wrap the lower legs and jerk the opponent down long enough so that you can jump on him.

Again, the whip is not meant to mame or incapacitate anyone just as pepper spray is not meant to. One of the first rules in a dangerous situation with an attacker is to create as much distance as possible. If you can only create a three to four foot distance then of course a whip would be a foolish option.

Try this - place a target about the size of a softball on the end of a string say three feet long. Hang it up so that the target is about head height. Get another helper to stand off to the side out of harms way but even with the target. Now get the target swinging back and forth. Then take aim and hit the target. At the same time you crack the whip, have the helper walk forward theoretically closing the distance between you and the target. Then check and see how far he got before you hit the target again. I'll bet you a beer that the distance travelled was close to six feet. Kinda makes that 8' Morgan real useless now doesn't it?

This is an interesting example but it has one major hole. A ball swinging on a string is not going to second guess it's role as an attacker. A person will, even if it is for a split second. Try doing this same trick with the swinging ball but then turn your attack on the person coming towards you. Of course you will not be inflicting injury but watch and see what their initial reaction is. I guarantee they will flinch.

Second, as that attacker moves inside the effective whip distance you can bet that there will be a secondary edged weapon waiting for him.

As I said before the best way to use a whip as a weapon is to turn it around and use it as a club or sap. You'd have a much better chance of inflicting effective damage by hitting them with the knot end of the handle.

Agreed. Once the effective perimeter of the whip has been breached the use of the whip as a club or black jack is a viable option.

I think a person with two stout sticks could actually beat the fool out of a whiphandler. How? If he has the sticks in front of him in a defensive posture, the only thing that you as the whip attacker can do is try to get through the defensive barrier. How? Why wrap the whip around a stick and jerk it out of his hand. Then get the other one. But wait, first you have to get your whip unwrapped from around that first stick. And I'll bet you can get your opponent to stand still while you untangle and recock. Right! He'll be thumping on the back of your noggin with that other stick in the meantime.

There are many holes in your logic here. For one, wrapping is not a viable option in a whip attack. It is much too slow. Two, how about bringing the whip into an underhand crack into the crotch. That is just one example, but the flinch would give more than enough time to move in or create more distance. The key to a fight is not to rely on role playing scenarios that you have made up but to be adaptable to any situation.

Well, I've rambled on long enough. And the testosterone on this thread is over powering. Indy may have done it once, but he didn't get to many other chances at them if I recall. Ah the magic of the silver screen.

Testerosterone or not I'm not talking about choreographed stage fighting with all the flourishes of dance and showmanship. I'm talking about the rare instant that using a whip may save your life and help you flee a situation and return to your family in one piece. If this is silly, so be it.

[jerryrwm]

Well, I can see this is going down the proverbial crapper as they say. But I must rebut.

If a whip was considered an acceptable and "Effective" weapon, then there would be a lot of whip related attacks being reported, the old west would have had a lot more whip duels and the street gangs and muggers would be buying them up or strealing them. A bullwhip is a tool used for specific purposes such as making livestock move in a certain direction cutting targets and making noise, and in my not so humble opinion is not a weapon that any sane person would use for self protection or as an offensive weapon.

As I said in an earlier post, if being attacked by a whip-weilding fiend becomes a serious problem of epidemic proportions then I would strongly suggest that one does not frequent those locations.

As far as using a knife as a backup weapon sounds a little suspect to me. I don't know of to many locales that allow a person to legally carry anything larger than a pocket knife in public. I can see it now - trying to keep the opponent at bay with the whip, and fumbling around trying to open a knife. Maybe some do practice those sorts of scenarios, but usually not after they have passed the legal drinking age. This is the kind of stuff that they make into comic books.

And, as a side note, I would strongly urge everyone not to think of that whip hanging on your belt as any kind of a weapon. Even one that might cause an attacker to flinch. Because when he quits flinching you just might find yourself on the wrong end of a serious butt-kickin'.

I guess I'll let this one rest as there is not much that needs to be said.

I remain,

Jerry R (who's sides still hurt from laighter after reading this thread )

[The_Edge]

Jerry,

While you are laughing I'd like to offer you these little tid-bits:

1.) A sharpened pencil can be an "effective" weapon and yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of gang related pencil attacks anywhere. Women in their self-defense classes are taught to hold a car key in their fist with the key portion protruding between their fingers as an "effective" weapon against attack in a darkened parking lot. Seen many key attacks on the news lately?

2.) In addition to the other cutlery that I own my EDC is a folding knife that I can have deployed from my pocket to a ready position in about one second.

3.) Very recently Koreana Jones used a four foot whip to fend off three threatening dogs. I have done the same as well on many occasions. I also seem to remember a story that Michaelson told once about cracking a vicious dog on the nose thus saving himself from harm.

4.) Why don't you ask Sergei or Zohar whether or not they think a whip can cause serious injury?

5.) The main gist of my argument is not that a whip is the best weapon to use, but that it can be a weapon.

[Magnum]

I think that, at least with a DM because I can't comment on any others as I've never held one, if someone gets too close to use the whip properly, you can just bash them over the head with the handle of the whip. I think that would get the guys attention.

[jerryrwm]

Jerry,

While you are laughing I'd like to offer you these little tid-bits:

1.) A sharpened pencil can be an "effective" weapon and yet there doesn't seem to be a lot of gang related pencil attacks anywhere. Women in their self-defense classes are taught to hold a car key in their fist with the key portion protruding between their fingers as an "effective" weapon against attack in a darkened parking lot. Seen many key attacks on the news lately?

If I remember the original Post was "defending yourself against a bullwhip attack". I said then that a bullwhip was not a weapon of choice for a sane person intent on attacking someone. Those weapons that you mentioned are "defensive weapons" as is a rolled up magazine or a fork. In fact, a credit card with one edge sharpened makes a darn good cutting instrument that is not readily identifiable as a weapon. But would I use it to attack someone? Not hardly. The point was made about using a bullwhip as a weapopn of attack. You gotta stay up with the thread. Going from offensive to defensive weapons is kinda slipping around the issue.


2.) In addition to the other cutlery that I own my EDC is a folding knife that I can have deployed from my pocket to a ready position in about one second.

I am very impressed. But is there a real need in the great Northwest for being lightning fast with a folding knife? Another question I would ask is are you trained in hand-to-hand knife fighting? If not, them maybe a knife is not a good weapon to use eaither. Kinda reminds me of the old joke about the young gunslinger who shot the buttons off the piano players sleeves. Then the bartender told him he better file off the front sight of his pistol. When he asked why he was told, "because when Wyatt Earp gets done playing the piano he's gonna stick that gun in your rear." You get that point?

3.) Very recently Koreana Jones used a four foot whip to fend off three threatening dogs. I have done the same as well on many occasions. I also seem to remember a story that Michaelson told once about cracking a vicious dog on the nose thus saving himself from harm.

Ah yes the dogs. I agree, I use a whip to occasionally move a dog or two on down the road myself. Not sure how that relates to this thread, but okay. Dogs as a rule are not rational free-thinking beings, and any disruption in their thought process will cause them to deviate most times.

4.) Why don't you ask Sergei or Zohar whether or not they think a whip can cause serious injury?

Never said that a whip couldn't cause serious injury. But as a weapon, A whip is not the first choice of anyone who intends on doing some kind of harm. Can't recall reading about a whip-attack injury or death. Just doesn't happen. Can a whip cause injury? Of course. Put out an eye, cut off an ear, slice a lip or cheek - heard of each one of these happening to people. Broken bones. concussion, trauma- can't say as I have. Now, I have heard about, and read about people being cut up pretty badly with a whip even to the point of death. But in those cases, they were usually tied in a staionary position and unable to defend themselves. Maybe someone on this forum has seen or heard of thugs, and malcontents using the whip as a weapon. If so, please post so I can read it.

5.) The main gist of my argument is not that a whip is the best weapon to use, but that it can be a weapon.

Kyle, I never disagreed with you about the whip as a weapon. I said that
it was not an effective weapon in a real life situation. You earlier said that a fight was not the scenarios that I had made up, but rather being able to adapt to the situation of the fight. Once again, and let me make it perfectly clear, a whip is a weapon, and is best used as such, by grasping the thong of the whip and using it as a club. Think about a snakewhip. It is a shot-loaded tapered tube. There is a self defense instructor in the Chicago area that teaches people to to wear a pocket snake as a belt, that can be used as a defensive weapon like a sap (blackjack)

That is my point Kyle - the whip can be used as a weapon, but you had better think about how you are going to use it. And crackin' it ain't the way to go.

Jerry R (who lives in Texas where they have concealed carry handgun laws. Handgun vs whip - gun wins!)

[jerryrwm]

I think that, at least with a DM because I can't comment on any others as I've never held one, if someone gets too close to use the whip properly, you can just bash them over the head with the handle of the whip. I think that would get the guys attention.

Hooray!! Someone finally got it!!

[sab04]

I've swung the whip aroung holding the opposite end and it moves so slow that anyone attacking could go up and grab the handle....bad idea!
if you have a shorter whip 8' or less, and are a proficient whip cracker, cracking it would be a good idea. you just dish out a series of multiple cracks quickly so that the attacker cannot get close enough for you to use the handle of the whip as a club. if you have multiple attackers surrounding you, swing the whip over your head as fast as you can. (holding the handle!) even though your not cracking it, it would still hurt like **** to get hit by it. (not to mention it makes a loud wooshing sound)
the only time to use the handle as a club would be in small spaces like a hallway, small room etc.
maybe using the whip as a club would be the best way for you to defend yourself, but anyone proficient with a whip would use it the way it was made to be used.
(i've heard lots of people on COW that have been attacked by dogs and have scared them away by CRACKING their whip, not by using it as a club) If someone was cracking a whip in my face i would definetly reconsider attacking them!
sorry if i sound like i think your totally wrong I understand where your coming from, but I feel that whips are made for one thing...to crack
-scott

[sab04]

Jerry R (who lives in Texas where they have concealed carry handgun laws. Handgun vs whip - gun wins!)

even if you use the whip as a club the gun would still win!
-scott

[jerryrwm]

Sab,

Let me explain something. I am not a novice whiphandler - have been using whips of some sort or another for probably more years than you have been alive.

I have been seriously making whips for about the last 5 years, so I know a little bit about them from that aspect also. My 24 plait bullwhip and 16 plait snakewhip were judged first at the Houston Whip Enthusiasts Weekend in November of 2002, and my 12 plait stockwhip was judged second. The competition was entered by such notable whipmakers as Bernie Wojicki, Peter Jack, Paul Nolan, DT King, and Janine Fraser and others.

As for the whiphandling abilities and proficiency, I won First place in the in the accuracy competition for both standard whips and long whips competition. Which consists of 10 targets at varying heights 5 with each hand. And I won second place in the Zorro Board Precision Competition. This competiotn was held in Dallas at the Whip Enthusiasts Whip Weekend IV this past October. So you see I can usually hit what I aim at.

Now, as for using the whip as a club. First off you would not grab the whip by the fall hitch and swing it. Grab it about a foot past the thong knot. Then you have something you can control fairly well and still be able to get enough ooompfh behind it to take care of an attacker. Second, multiple attackers is another situation that you should not have gotten yourself into in the first place.

And multiple cracks in the face may cause some hesitation in the attacker, but you can bet the farm that any opening will be taken advantage of. As I said in an earlier post - try hitting a moving target and see how many times you can hit it without a miss doing rapid cracks. If you can't hit it everytime, then you are in big trouble. Why? Because I have been hit with whips, have hit myself with whips, and it doesn't hurt near as bad as getting a hard shot to the mouth by a well swung fist. So after getting hit one of two times with a whip I think I could close the distance quickly and be really p***ed off when I got ahold of the whip cracker.

Now, there are probably a handful of whiphandlers out there that could really do the trick with a whip, but the average, Indy Gear, first time whip buyer, who just learned how to do a cattleman's crack and a horizontal crack better leave the darn whip on their belt and learn to run like ####!

I am not sure that you understand where I am coming from, but you are correct in stating that a whip is meant to be used to crack. Just don't try and use the whip as a weapon.

Jerry R

[Rabittooth]

I'm always astounded when my flippant posting of a goofy cartoon sparks serious debate. What a great forum.

-Rabittooth

[Sergei]

What amazes me Rab, is that your post with the graphic was posted over a year ago. In the wine industry they would call that a "long aftertaste". )

[ecwhips]

Wow, I kept skipping past this post for the last day because I figured it was just more silly comments about the cartoon. I never expected to see such a debate get set off.

My philosophy is to simply avoid trouble at all costs. Never fight unless you or your family's life absolutely depended on it. In a stituation where you had no choice but to fight to save yourself, I could see using a whip crack or two to hurt your opponent and then get the heck out of there! And that's if you were composed enough in that situation to be able to crack the whip in a controlled fashion, and not lose your grip on the whip because your hands were all sweaty. Also, despite how painful getting a direct blow from a whip would be, I've seen people come back for more after the most painful of blows or injuries. If you still need to defend yourself after the initial cracks, I think flipping the whip around and using the handle as a club would be the next best bet, especially if it was a Morgan whip, for example, with a heavily loaded butt. Then get the heck out of there!

Jim

[JerseyJones]

Dear I.J.,

Those that have studied martial arts would tell you that you should first and foremost try to leave the area.

Best Regards,

Paul Stenhouse

Absolutely. Escape without indcident first ! Well said Paul.

Ken

I think that several good points have been made and, as a somewhat experienced martial artist, I have a few free ideas as well:

1. In order to make a whip like weapon effective, you need to learn to use it as a flexible trapping/locking device. Example, my ninjutsu teacher, and other good MA teachers I've seen, can use a towel to work off multiple attackers. Not choreographed, mind you, they just does it using leverage and the towel as a trap for an arm, leg or head. Then he teaches us to use in distance leveraging, joint locks, and escapes ( Yes, Escapes) to deal with the attack.

2. Shorter, to me would be better, say a 6 foot heavy handled whip, with a very tough thong designed to be pulled like a garotte between two hands at different points.

3. The handle should be long and strong enough to function as a lever or a stick/club when held above the thong knot, say 9-12 inches. For speed you can hold the balance of the thong in your hand and use it to trap, distract or ward off attacks, like a Kusari-Fundo (weighted fighting chain).

Do all this and combine it with good PT and a solid martial arts base and

POW !

HIIIIIIYA ! IndyFu is BORN !

So, Anybody up for working with me to develop a fighting whip. Jim M. Joe ? Paul ?

Though I am no real super martial artist, I'd be happy to see if this theory works by suggesting it in my MA class in the off time. I'll use my DeSaye nylon though.

Peace above all,
Ken / JJ

[The_Edge]

That's very good, Jerry. You just threw your argument out the window and decided instead to question my ability to translate the thread, my credability and the need for my skills in other areas of interest. My favorite part was when you went to all that trouble to make such a deep point with that tired old fable about Wyatt Earp at the piano. Only to refute it with your closing line of the post. Well done.

If you have a problem with me personally, take it off line. Otherwise don't try to paint me as an incompetant fool because I won't bow to your father knows best @#$%. I offer my opinions on subjects that I know about. Notice I don't contribute to the Guns forum much? It's not because I don't like guns or can't shoot them. It's because I don't own any and don't have a wide knowledge base pertaining to them. I'm even an NRA member. However, I have been handling whips for a long time and have a deep passion for them. Self-defense; I have some instruction in and study regularly. I also have a passion for outdoor survival skills and edged tools. I don't claim to be an expert in any of these things. All I can do is contribute my experience, my ideas and my opinions and let others read them with a grain of salt.

I've said what I have to say concerning whips as weapons. I've been involved in a few impromptu sparring matches using the whip and I believe in it's potential as a weapon. Do I have any practical experience fending off human opponents in a life threatening combat situation with a whip? No, and I hope I never do. I've practiced knife fighting techniques also but I've never killed anyone either. I try to avoid hazardous areas and situations but I do prepare for them. If this alters anyone's outlook of my stance on whips as weapons then so be it. If you think I'm a fool, well, you wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last. I stand by my opinion.

[Michaelson]

Just to stick my head in the door, yes, it's true, I successfully defended myself against a pack of dogs many years ago with a 10 foot bullwhip. If I had a revolver with me at the time, which would I have chosen to protect myself with? Well, let's just say the whip would have been left in the truck on that hike if I had it to do over again. To this day, I reach for a revolver as I walk out the door instead of a whip, so that's the decision I've made after being faced with making a choice. But then, I've been in situations where I've questioned whether or not I was carrying enough gun too..... Regards. Michaelson

[sab04]

sorry but I have to agree totally with edge. you have to be close to someone to use the whip as a club, but cracking it can keep them at a slight distance until you can think of an escape plan.
-scott

[jerryrwm]

Well, I want to apologize to the forum for expressing what I felt was a valid opinion. I apparently forgot the pecking order and felt that dissenting opinions were okay.

Being summarily dismissed I will not discuss this matter anymore, so that no one will feel that I am questioning their credibility, or their ability, and certainly not their experience.

I should have listened to my wife when she told me to back off of the discussion, but nooo...I felt that what I had to say was valid and felt that i could express it, based on my experiences and my opinions. I guess I was shown the error of that thinking.

So that said, that is my last word on the subject. Which I may add I do have a little experience with. Not as a fighter however.

So, I guess I'll retire to the shop and pull on some strips of kangaroo and hopefully sell it to someone who will use it properly.

Jerry R

[sab04]

you opinion is as valid as cracking the whip to defend yourself. it's just if our beloved hero whipped out his whip, and then started hitting his enemy with the handle i'd be ticked. because of that it is hard to agree with you (eventhough your arguments did make sense)
I think cracking the whip and using it as a club are equally efective to defend yourself.
well that takes care of that.
-scott

[Sergei]

Jerry and ALL, yes this kind of debate is fruitful and encouraged. There is no pecking order, we just want facts if they can be supplied or when facts are not available a good discourse on opinion is encouraged. After awhile you grow a thick skin and just walk away from these discussions where you, "Agree to Disagree". There is nothing wrong with that, in this context, is there?

"Now A-L-L of you drop down a give me 25, you unorganized grabasstic pieces of amphibious...."
)

Just trying to add humor to THIS hread (re: Rab's graphic from the top) , THE WAY IT STARTED! "As you were."

-Sergei

p.s. It supposed to be funny for any thin skinned people out here. )

[Rabittooth]

Actually...wouldn't it be a great world if every potential combat situation could be settled with yer fists instead of weapons of any kind? No guns or whips no rocks to throw. Get in close and really see who's who and who's just talk instead of hiding behind a weapon?
I long for the simpler days of my youth when a fight meant someone was getting knocked down with a bloody nose and it was decided.
We'd all be healthier, that's for sure. If there were no such things as weapons to hide behind folks would work out more.

-Rabittooth

(PS-BTW...No offense to the gun dudes here...I'm merely expressing my wish for a world where they wouldn't be needed and if you "Gotta F**ckin' problem" (New York), you could deck someone or get laid out yerself, but there'd be no shooting. I understand that there are bad guys with guns and that in many cases upstanding citizens need to level the old playing field. Just wish the filed could be level without them.)

Hey Sergei! Love the Gunny!! OOO-RA!

[IndyBlues]

Let me first say, that I know absolutley "diddley" about bullwhips. The only exposure I've ever had to them is movies, television, and the occasional circus. Now, jerryrwm, seems to have made alot of sense.
Hypothetically, if I'm holding a gun, and your holding a whip, and we are both proficient with our weapons, you may put my eye out, or inflict a really nasty wound on me, but I'm gonna shoot ya'. Plain as the nose on my face, as long as you didn't take it off with the whip first.
This thread started out a a joke, and turned into a discussion about a Mexican standoff with a whip and a gun.
I may be talking out of school, but unless their life depended on it, I don't think anyone would try to come to a gunfight with a whip. Just ain't happening.
BTW, did I say I didn't know anything about whips?

[Farnham54]

Think is, between a gun and a whip--if your opponent is using an 8ft bullwhip, and you are 9 feet away with your gun....Guess who walks away un-injured?

As per defending yourself AGAINST a bullwhip or using one as a weapon--I think we all forgot to mention something about the human mind. A crack of a whip can be intimidating, really throw someone off of their stance.

As per cracking it offensivly or defensivly for an extended period of time, probobly not effective. Swinging the whip allowes constant movement, say, around ones head. It takes time to recover from a crack, and make another crack on target, However, if you are using it like a club and swinging it, you can pretty much instantly swing it down and make solid contact. Kind of like using an axe in battle, the key is to keep the object moving at all times.

But, in many cases, a fight should be over as safley as possible as quickly as possible--so if a good crack throws your opponent for even a brief few seconds for you to run away, it's an effective self defence. Your best weapon, however, is your legs. Run like the wind!

Regards,

Farn

[The_Edge]

Think is, between a gun and a whip--if your opponent is using an 8ft bullwhip, and you are 9 feet away with your gun....Guess who walks away un-injured?

As per defending yourself AGAINST a bullwhip or using one as a weapon--I think we all forgot to mention something about the human mind. A crack of a whip can be intimidating, really throw someone off of their stance.

As per cracking it offensivly or defensivly for an extended period of time, probobly not effective. Swinging the whip allowes constant movement, say, around ones head. It takes time to recover from a crack, and make another crack on target, However, if you are using it like a club and swinging it, you can pretty much instantly swing it down and make solid contact. Kind of like using an axe in battle, the key is to keep the object moving at all times.

Farn,

I completely agree with you. If you'll go back and re-read my posts on the subject you will notice that I touch on all of those same points.

It is important for me to clarify to everyone that I am not questioning the superiority of a gun to a whip. There is no debate that a bullet will kill you and a whip will not. All I am arguing is that a whip can be used as a weapon in certain situations. Plain and simple. Neither am I saying that using the handle and knob of the whip as a weapon is not a viable option. I have told several people that the Pocket Bulls I make can be used for cracking or as black jacks. This technique is not in dispute and never was.

What I find interesting is the stance to completely dismiss the use of cracking a whip as, primarily, a defensive weapon. All the opposing points made were quite valid and reasonable but the refusal to aknowledge the other position as even a remote possibility is what I found ignorant. Of course, there is no point in arguing with someone who would rather abandon the debate in favor of self-pity and pouting like a sissy.

I just wish that instead of this being a virtual gathering place we were able to actually demonstrate for each other live action examples of what we are discussing. I think that a sparring match between, say, one fella with a baseball bat and the other with a six foot bullwhip would be very interesting.

But, in many cases, a fight should be over as safley as possible as quickly as possible--so if a good crack throws your opponent for even a brief few seconds for you to run away, it's an effective self defence. Your best weapon, however, is your legs. Run like the wind!

EXACTLY!! That is exactly my point! Thank you!

And with that ... I am getting off this rollercoaster.