Indy Hats and a conformature

[FloatinJoe]

This past spring, I had a top hat fitted for me for my upcoming wedding. They used a device called a "conformature". It was over 150 years old and measures the shape of your skull. The shape is then reproduced on a device called a "formillion". This is then used to shape your hat to ensure a perfect fit.

I received my top hat, and it is the most wonderful fitting hat I've ever tried on (I should hope so). The question I pose here is: do any of our resident "Indy hat" makers have the equipment/ability to make Indy hats like this? I have my measurements (actually it is a punch card with a lot of little holes outlining my headshape), and I'd love to be able to send this off for a fedora.

Mike

[Michaelson]

The only one I've ever seen was at Peters Brothers in Ft. Worth, TX.

Regards! Michaelson

[binkmeisterRick]

My understanding is Art Fawcett sends a "paper version" for you to measure with and send back.

[jlee562]

Art's conformer is a plastic deal which measures your head, Portolan, on The Fedora Lounge posted a pic: http://thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php ... count=2520

[BendingOak]

I have had people send me their results from these items. I thought of having a inexpensive one made to ship to customers. There are a couple of things to think about. One, it's going to raiser the price of the hat. Two, most people have a hard time working a tape measurer let alone something that has as many moving parts like a conformer. The third thing is that I have a hard time having people send back swatch cards to me.


John

[Indiana Jake]

One of the finest Cowboy Western Hatmakers is (or was?) Kevin O'Farrel of O'Farrel Hats in Durango, Colorado. He has since sold the company, and I am unsure of his situation at this time. Kevin has or had some of the antique machines that Floatin' Joe is referring to. He fitted me for a hat, and I am a 7 5/8 long oval, so a custom hat is really the best way to go for me. When I saw the punch card of my head shape, It looked like the outline of a salted peanut in the shell. Luckily no one has pointed this out to me directly.
BTW, this is an amazing well made hat, and it fits great. It is one of my favorites. He did an amazing job with the edge binding and ribbon work. I'm glad that I was personally fitted for the hat. If you have a chance to see the hat maker face to face, I think you can get the best fitting hat this way. I heard of one hatter who suggested that his customers wrap some kind of wire like copper or aluminum around their head, tape it to a piece of cardboard and send it in to determine head size and shape.
Yes, I can see that sending this 'sizer' out would increase hat cost. On the flipside, you might have a higher ratio of correctly fitting hats? For gun holsters I will occasionally send out a sizing belt. I have at least 8 hrs of labor in a custom cartridge belt, so I want to get it right the first time.
Wrong size custom orders are so hard to re-sell.

John, you should charge for the swatch cards. If they return them, you can apply it to the price of their hat order.

If i recall correctly John, you made me measure my head three times while on the phone. I got the measurement the same all three times. The hat fits perfectly!

Indiana Jake

[Mattdeckard]

/\ your head is shaped like a salted peanut.

As far as I know O'Farrell sold his company which meant selling his name with it. I think I heard he is making his hats elsewhere now. I do love his old catalog.

Comformers are great for the bowler, top hat or western hat which all tend to be stiff by nature. Since they are stiff an exact fit is necessary lest you want a surgeon to shave off that bump on the front right of your skull to prevent the rubbing.

A soft hat like a fedora or homburg doesn't really need a conformer to make the hat fit better. Outside of knowing whether a head is a round, long, regular or German oval to adjust the overall shape, the soft dress hat should be squishy and fit without too much discomfort.

[Indiana Jake]

Deckard, I would agree, that a 'stiff' hat needs a more specific shape than a softer hat. There is quite a bit of stiffness in my O'Farrel hat, compared to the Penman hat I have. The O'Farrel hat almost has the same stiffness of my 100 year old bowler hat.

Indiana Jake

[Mattdeckard]

I really think that bowler is only 76 years old... not 100.

[Indiana Jake]

Deckard,

Last time you were here, didn't I show you the results of the carbon dating test I had recently done on that old hat?

Indiana Jake

[Chewbacca Jones]

Being an owner of numerous different custom hats, including those based on a conformer and those just on measurements, I don't find a great difference between them in terms of fit when it comes to fedoras. The felt is, as mentioned already, soft enough to give to your head's shape. Accurate measuring is the key.

I do think that if you have trouble finding a normal fit, or if hats get very distorted on your head, a conformer might be useful, even for fedoras. The average hat wearer probably has no need, but once in a while it could be handy.

[BendingOak]

Being an owner of numerous different custom hats, including those based on a conformer and those just on measurements, I don't find a great difference between them in terms of fit when it comes to fedoras. The felt is, as mentioned already, soft enough to give to your head's shape. Accurate measuring is the key.

I do think that if you have trouble finding a normal fit, or if hats get very distorted on your head, a conformer might be useful, even for fedoras. The average hat wearer probably has no need, but once in a while it could be handy.

I couldn't agree more. If it's a soft felt hat ( not a lot of stiffener used ) the sweatband will form to the person head in a short time. I have had customers come to me who did get fitted with a conformer that was sent to them and got a poor fitted hat and I was able to fit them better.

I think the only way the conformer would be helpful if you are in front of the hat make himself. To many moving parts for most people to get right.

[fenris]

Ummm... what does a conformature look like?

[BendingOak]

Ummm... what does a conformature look like?

Hang on a 2nd, I hear bink..........

[fenris]

Ummm... what does a conformature look like?

Hang on a 2nd, I hear bink..........

You hear him... posting a picture or typing a funny remark?

[FloatinJoe]

Well, the easy part first. This is a conformature and a conform block from the Patey Hats website:


You place the conformature on your head and it shifts all of the pins to a 1/6 size shape of your head. Then the lid is closed with a card in it. The card is punctured by the pins and your head is measured. There are no actual numbers involved. It is just a pindot outline. This card is then placed in the conform block to create a custom block at full size.

I figured that it doesn't work well on the soft felt hat, but I wanted to check. I know that Art uses his plastic device, but was curious if any of our other hatters actually had a conform block, or formillion, and would use it to make a hat when supplied with the punch card from a conformature.

Thanks for all the thoughts.

Mike

[binkmeisterRick]

Ummm... what does a conformature look like?

Hang on a 2nd, I hear bink..........

Nope. I'm too busy actually working today.

[BendingOak]

I don't think anyone make completely new block for each and every customer. It would be to costly and beside, where would you keep them.

[Chewbacca Jones]

The device Art Fawcett uses looks far less intimidating than the photo above. My memory isn't the best, but I think what he does is make some sort of "accessory" that he places on a normal block, or uses after the normal block. Something like that.

I recall something else, though, that's interesting. I had a hat stretcher made based on my formature, and I notice that if I place it in a hat made with the formature, the brim does not distort at all, but if I put an off-the-shelf stretcher in the same hat, I get a slight distortion. However, using the custom stretcher on a factory hat is... well... ugly. Who says physics makes sense?

[crismans]

The conformature pictured looks like it should be paired up with an iron maiden!

[Indiana Jake]

I don't think anyone make completely new block for each and every customer. It would be to costly and beside, where would you keep them.

If a hatter using the conformature doesn't make a custom block for each hat, (that would be crazy talk!) What does a hatter do with this conformature info? It has to provide some info besides a head circumference measurement. Do you use it to determine someone's specific type of oval head size? Where in the hat blocking and sizing process would this info be useful? Too bad Art or some other hatter who uses one isn't following this thread.

I put an off-the-shelf stretcher in the same hat, I get a slight distortion.

Most of my hats do not touch the sides of my head above the ears. Deckard told me I had a crazy indent there, as well as having a peanut shaped head. lol!

BTW, Kevin O'Farrel's conformature tool he used on me looked just like the one in the picture FJ posted earlier. Try shipping that old antique around to your customers. I'll bet it doesn't happen.

but if I put an off-the-shelf stretcher in the same hat, I get a slight distortion.

I'm no expert on custom made hat stretching devices, but it is an extreme possibility that the curvature of the hat stretchers are different. If you are an long oval and you put on a factory made hat that is a shorter oval, the hat brim will point downward at the front and rear. I've heard this called the 'banana roll' brim shape. I think it looks terrible when you are trying to maintain a flat brim style. Sam Elliot's hat on Tombstone must have had the same problem, unless he changed it on his own. Of all the Earp brothers, his hat just didn't look right. but I digress. COW is about Indy and hats, not cowboy hats.

Indiana Jake

[Chewbacca Jones]

Jake, by it's nature a custom stretcher will be shaped differently than a regular one. It's shaped like my head. So if you had one, it would be shaped like a peanut.

I am not a long oval, but my head shape (and all others) would place very specific points of pressure inside the hat, and thus the brims react differently. That's one reason why the same hat can look different on different people. Witness Sam Elliot's hat (though, he may have had a hand in that - I think he's a hat wearer normally).

What gets me puzzled is that, in my case, the stretchers cause these things to happen (or not happen, as the case may be), but my actual head does not. If the stretcher is the shape of my head, and distorts, say, a factory Stetson. Why doesn't my head do the same? (and yes, I double checked the size setting of my stretchers.)

[Mattdeckard]

Jake, it's not used for a specific block, just to help in steaming in the shape then some particulars in sewing in the sweat so it helps hold that shape. I don't know anyone that makes blocks specially for customers nowadays... way too expensive for that to be happening.

Some of the studios would make blocks for their stars back in the day, John Wayne and such. That is according to the studios. Costly, though I guess it made their stars feel more like stars.. I think it stopped in the 1930s... have to ask around more. I think Rich Rand still makes hat stands that carry your custom headshape for when you leave your hat behind and don't want the sweat meandering into an oddity when the felt or leather draws in.

I have a strong right forehead which means I have a prominent bump that makes my stiff hats point to the right, or if it's a soft hat like a fedora, makes the brim dip over my right eye. If I tell my hatter about this issue It gets compensated for. A conformer always picks up that bump. Again, necessary for a stiff hat in my case, but not really needed with a soft hat like a fedora unless I'm really picky about not wanting a wobbly brim.

[Indiana Jake]

I have a strong right forehead which means I have a prominent bump .

I've been meaning to tell you to get that bump looked at. I think they can fix it at the same place my peanut shape head gets the makeover. For now, we can wear hats that cover it up.

Jake

[Mattdeckard]

Finally, back to the topic at hand...

The question I pose here is: do any of our resident "Indy hat" makers have the equipment/ability to make Indy hats like this? I have my measurements (actually it is a punch card with a lot of little holes outlining my headshape), and I'd love to be able to send this off for a fedora.

Mike

So, a lot of information on head typewriters and what they do and why people don't or do use them, but was your question answered?

[BendingOak]

I have had people send me their results from these items. I thought of having a inexpensive one made to ship to customers. There are a couple of things to think about. One, it's going to raiser the price of the hat. Two, most people have a hard time working a tape measurer let alone something that has as many moving parts like a conformer. The third thing is that I have a hard time having people send back swatch cards to me.


John

[Oklahoma Jones]

The only other place I have seen a conformateur is on my head at Nathaniels of Colorado. It is a pretty interesting piece of equipment...

[Fedora]

What I find interesting is back in the really old days, dress hats were stiff, and this device, along with the formillion was used to fit stiff hats. Then, over time, dress hats became soft, or most of them. These soft hats were called self conforming, due to the the comforateur and formillion not being needed to fit.

Then, westen hats that had started out as soft, became stiff, and all of these old comformateurs and formillions were bought up by western hatters.

To use the formillion, which mimics your actual head shape, bumps and all, the brim is heated up, the formillion installed into the sweatband, and a tolliker is used to change the shape of the opening of the hat. So that the hole in the hat, matches the head shape. Afterall, a really stiff hat does not conform to the head shape like a soft hat does. There is nothing more uncomfortable than a stiff hat, on a bumpy head, that has not been conformed with these ancient tools to fit properly. All hatters who sell stiff hats really need one of these, IMO.

[Mattdeckard]

All hatters who sell stiff hats really need one of these, IMO.

I agree.

[FloatinJoe]

Finally, back to the topic at hand...

The question I pose here is: do any of our resident "Indy hat" makers have the equipment/ability to make Indy hats like this? I have my measurements (actually it is a punch card with a lot of little holes outlining my headshape), and I'd love to be able to send this off for a fedora.

Mike

So, a lot of information on head typewriters and what they do and why people don't or do use them, but was your question answered?

Matt, the answer that I'm inferring from this thread is that the only one of our commonly used hatters that may accomodate this service is Peter Brothers. I want to say that I remember reading that Optimo does, but I can't swear to that. It sounds like Art Fawcett provides a similar service, but doesn't use a conformature or formillion.

Jake, I don't see hatters sending out a conformature to be fitted. This would be an optional service. You don't need to go to the hatter to be fitted either. For example, when I was fitted for my top hat, a gentleman in Virginia who happened to own, and know how to use, a conformature sized me. He mailed the results to my hatter in England, and then the hatter placed it on his formillion and shaped my hat. This did wind up adding to the cost of the hat. I had to pay for the services of the conformature, and then paid for the hat. If I were in London, I could have saved the cost of the fitting, since the hatter would have provided it.

John, are you saying that you've had people send you the results from a conformature, or from a device similar to what Art uses?

Chewbacca Jones, did you use a conformature as pictured for your custom hats, or a different method?

Oklahoma Jones, what type of hat did you get from your fitting results?

Steve, some of your fedoras are pretty stiff (at least my 2005 model seemed to be). Is this something that you would consider for your hats?

Would this be something more apt for a derby/bowler or a stiff homburg?

Mike

[Band Director Jones]

Matt, the answer that I'm inferring from this thread is that the only one of our commonly used hatters that may accomodate this service is Peter Brothers.

Just a little note about this. When I was last at Peters Brothers (which as around lat 2005/early 2006), their conformature was not working (some of the internal parts were broken) and Joe Sr. had no clue where the formillion was. He also had no desire or interest in having it fixed. He just kept it out on the counter for decoration. Then again, the was several years ago, but I doubt Joe Sr. has changed his mind.

[Michaelson]

That's the same story he told me in 2005 when we were in the store...but then he also had no plans on re-introducing their famous 'Shady Oaks' hat due to broken parts on the machinery to make the hat....but got it fixed and they're once again available.

Maybe he got it working again.

between you and me, though, I doubt it.

Regards! Michaelson

[Oklahoma Jones]

FloatinJoe, I have not made a request for a hat from them just yet, but I plan on getting a copy of the hat that Josh Bernstein wore on Diggin For The Truth. Nate and David made that wondeerful distressed hat for Josh, and I really like it. To me, it is a cross between and Indy hat and a Crocodile Dundee hat; the best movie hats EVER! But, they are pricey, and I am saving up...

[BendingOak]

Yes I have. I keep each one on file for future use.

[RCSignals]

The conformature pictured looks like it should be paired up with an iron maiden!

LOL Looks like something out of a SAW movie

[RCSignals]

............... Outside of knowing whether a head is a round, long, regular or German oval to adjust the overall shape, the soft dress hat should be squishy and fit without too much discomfort.

German's have their own dedicated oval head shape?

[Mattdeckard]

Many different nationalities tend to have their own head shapes. Asians often have round oval heads and very squared off feet. I had a long conversation with a cobbler about the feet once when I was in London. Germans tend to have squared off foreheads (Frankenstein monster like) which in turn brought forth the usage with hatters the term German oval. At least that's what I've gotten from a few of the western guys and a dress hatter.

[Chewbacca Jones]

Chewbacca Jones, did you use a conformature as pictured for your custom hats, or a different method?

Mike

It was NOT the contraption pictured. Art's device was sort of a clear plastic hat brim with wingnut screws to adjust tabs all around the device. It was not easy to use alone, so I recommend a second set of hands to hold the "brim" steady while you adjust things. It is also very flat, making it easier and cheaper to ship. By the way, Art charges a little extra for a customer's first hat to get the conformer shipped and the formature made.

Be aware that Art is not really an Indy hat dealer. He will make one if pressed, but usually refers people to others more knowledgeable. You might convince him to just make a formature for you, but I don't know.

[BendingOak]

If you are in the market for a Raiders hat the conformer is not needed. for two reasons. The Raiders hat should have little stiffener in it and with the turn you will go against the shape so there is no point for this at all.

[Fedora]

Steve, some of your fedoras are pretty stiff (at least my 2005 model seemed to be). Is this something that you would consider for your hats?

I would have to do so, IF, I could only get in stiff bodies. Generally, my bodies are not stiff though, but every now and then, the factory screws up and they add shellac to the brims! Today, if that happens, I take out the stiffener. Of course pure beaver in the weight that I use, has a little natural stiffness that comes from the denseness of the felt itself. But, not enough to warrant a special fitting tool, IMO. Denseness of felt adds durability, over decades, so the trade off to me is justifiable, although it isn't accurate to the Indy films, except the last one of course.

On my rabbit hats, I always soak those in denatured alcohol, just to be sure that if they did add shellac, it comes out before I make the hat.

[Fedora]

If you are in the market for a Raiders hat the conformer is not needed. for two reasons. The Raiders hat should have little stiffener in it and with the turn you will go against the shape so there is no point for this at all.

Yeah, you nailed that John. The ideal Raiders fedora is so soft, the brim should flap in the wind, at least after some wear. But, I can't count the number of times that a customer specified a stiff Raiders fedora, instead of a soft one. So, you give em' what they want. On those hats, I really did need this ancient tool, but you have to sell alot of stiffer hats in order to afford one of these things. Very, very expensive. But if I sold western hats, I would definitely have to invest in one of them. Many western hats are very stiff, much stiffer than any of my hats have ever been, to my best recollection.

[Indiana Jake]

To Fedora and Bending Oak,

Do either one of you see yourself going into the Cowboy or some other stiff hat business? I often wonder how long the Indy hats can remain popular. I say this only because I am skeptical about the if and when of Indy V. Also, do you guys see yourself supplying hats to any non-Indy movies that may come up in the future?

Indiana Jake

[FloatinJoe]

Steve, thanks for the information. As I said, this was a post mainly out of curiousity. I know that fedoras are soft felt hats and shouldn't need one of these, but I was curious if it was being done out there.

Chewbacca Jones, I have a hat in mind for Art in the future and it isn't an Indy hat. I'd love for him to do a "tuxedo" hat. These were rare about 80 years ago or so, but they were a homburgs with the underbrim covered in silk. Haven't talked to him, so I don't even know if it's possible. Not in the market for it yet either, but maybe someday.

All, thank you for your comments.

Mike

[BendingOak]

I'm nit really interested in making western hats but I have made a few. I make other hats besides Indy hats, you just don't see them here that much. I would be interest in making hats for other movies sure but I don't think that world knows I excist.

[DR Ulloa]

It's my understanding that those tuxedo hats were not homburgs but actually fedoras. Your right about the silk brim bottom. I saw one once and can't believe I didn't buy it up. John Penman made me a wedding hat to along with my tuxedo. It was somewhat insipred by that tuxedo hat I had seen. I didin't want the silk brim bottom, though as I thought it too flashy.

Dave

[Michaelson]

I'm nit really interested in making western hats but I have made a few. I make other hats besides Indy hats, you just don't see them here that much. I would be interest in making hats for other movies sure but I don't think that world knows I excist.

I still covet a 'Marlow' from your shop, John. Someday.....

Regards! Michaelson

[FloatinJoe]

It's my understanding that those tuxedo hats were not homburgs but actually fedoras. Your right about the silk brim bottom. I saw one once and can't believe I didn't buy it up. John Penman made me a wedding hat to along with my tuxedo. It was somewhat insipred by that tuxedo hat I had seen. I didin't want the silk brim bottom, though as I thought it too flashy.

Dave

I would say that the fedora is even more rare than the homburg. Most of them were homburgs, and today the homburg is still considered the "proper" hat for "tuxedos" or "dinner jackets".

Mike

[Chewbacca Jones]

Yes, indeed. But Homburgs are less formal than tops hats. Where the line is drawn for which to wear escapes me.

Anyhow, if anyone can build a Tuxedo hat, it's Art. Not to say others couldn't, but it sounds like a project best suited to his methods.

[Kentucky Blues]

I may be way out of my league here, but is there such thing as a hat that would go good with a tuxedo while still pulling off the formal look? In my mind, tuxedo or dinner jacket is something which does NOT warrant a hat, but rather the overcoat you would wear with it would be what the hat is to go with. I consider a hat to be outerwear, which is typically removed when you reach your destination, but I consider a tux or dinner coat to be something that would be covered by outerwear until you reach your destination. To see someone walking around outdoors in a tux and a hat would look kind of silly to me. A suit is an exception because it goes both ways; a suit coat could be outerwear for your shirt, which could be removed once you got home or to your office or what have you, but could also be kept on to look good.

But I'm getting off topic... what kind of hat, be it homburg, tux fedora, or whatever, looks good with a tux?

Um, and thus would need a conformature to ensure proper fit (knew I had an on topic comment here somewhere...)

-KB

[BendingOak]

just picked up one of the plastic ones that Art uses. I will try and redesign it so it's easy to use.