The OFFICIAL hat ribbon

Bruce Wayne · Post by **Bruce Wayne** » Wed May 12, 2010 7:11 pm

IS there any reason why it is such a closely guarded secret? I have talked to a couple of the hatters here & at the Lounge & neither of them are willing to sell any ribbon for me to put on myself. I am just curious what the big deal is regarding the ribbon?

Thanx!!!
Charlie

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 12, 2010 7:50 pm

It's a highly radioactive ribbon in its natural state. Unless you have the proper equipment for handling and neutralizing it, it will kill you, much like the Nazis after they opened the Ark.

WalkingEye · Post by **WalkingEye** » Wed May 12, 2010 7:51 pm

Well, my guess is that the ribbon is rare. If it weren't we'd all have incredibly SA ribbon on all our hats without any hassle in obtaining it. So that would mean the ribbon they are using is most likely either vintage (doubtful) or a special order. Having this elusive ribbon adds to the appeal of buying a hat from one of the vendors. It's something unique to their product that can be used as a selling point. If they sold just the ribbon to everyone one they'd lose that selling point. That's just my opinion though.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Wed May 12, 2010 8:06 pm

It's my undersdtanding that this ribbon is made closer to how vintage ribbon is made. This makes it better quality than the standard hat ribbon you find these days. I also understand that it is very expensive. I believe that only Steve, John, and Marc have this ribbon so I don't know who else at the Fedora Lounge you spoke to but they don't have this ribbon unless they have recently acquired it. The only hats I've seen with this ribbon is AB (and by extension the ABD) and the Penman. I'm not sure that even Garrison uses this ribbon.

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:15 pm

The ribbon is something very special. David is right it is made like vintage ribbon. Most ribbon makers don't make ribbon for the use for hats. The modern ribbon makers biggest customer have nothing to do with hats at all. There ribbon can be use for hats but it's just not like vintage ribbon.

The Indy ribbon that the AB and Penman use is made special for Marc. Marc shared that ribbon with Steve. they put that same ribbon on the Henry. I found that source and use it on my hats.

That ribbon can not be gotten by any other hat company.

It is a selling point when it comes to selling hats. It's just one but it is very big to say you have the ribbon. It's like no other.

I can't speak for Marc or Steve but I don't sell it for a couple of reasons.

One, it cost me a lot and Its a pain to get more stock when I run out.

Two, that ribbon is special and belongs on special hats. I know I'm sounding snobbish on this one but heck the AB guys worked hard and so have I. Our hats are special and the ribbon is just another reason why.

Three, People have bought brand new hats and have asked me to take off the ribbon and put mine on it. Can anyone see anything wrong with that? Or am I being a jerk??????

The last reason, there isn't anyone who is going to sew the ribbon on as well as I am and I don't want that ribbon shown in a bad light in any way.

There you have it.

jnicktem · Post by **jnicktem** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:20 pm

So John- are you saying you can't put that ribbon on my Dorfman???

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed May 12, 2010 9:23 pm

jnicktem wrote:So John- are you saying you can't put that ribbon on my Dorfman???

That is correct but if I reblock a hat for a customer who have bought a hat from me I then will do that for that customer.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed May 12, 2010 10:13 pm

So, if you bought your Dorfman from John, THEN he can swap the ribbon.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Wed May 12, 2010 11:03 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:So, if you bought your Dorfman from John, THEN he can swap the ribbon.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:02 am

BendingOak wrote: People have bought brand new hats and have asked me to take off the ribbon and put mine on it. Can anyone see anything wrong with that? Or am I being a jerk??????

I understand this impulse. There are so few decent factory hats around in terms of shape, and some of the best looking ones have a ribbon or band that is... well...

Even if it isn't, being a quick ribbon swap away from "your perfect hat" is painful. We Indy freaks have the special problem of mostly having access to brown hats with ribbons that are too light or just plain wrong.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:23 am

Chewbacca Jones wrote:
BendingOak wrote: People have bought brand new hats and have asked me to take off the ribbon and put mine on it. Can anyone see anything wrong with that? Or am I being a jerk??????
I understand this impulse. There are so few decent factory hats around in terms of shape, and some of the best looking ones have a ribbon or band that is... well... Even if it isn't, being a quick ribbon swap away from "your perfect hat" is painful. We Indy freaks have the special problem of mostly having access to brown hats with ribbons that are too light or just plain wrong.

I understand completely but look at my point of view. I could spend more time swapping out ribbon than I do making my own hats.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu May 13, 2010 3:58 am

I don't think BMW will put their hubcaps on a Ford either. This particular ribbon goes part and parcel with these particular hats.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Thu May 13, 2010 5:47 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:I don't think BMW will put their hubcaps on a Ford either. This particular ribbon goes part and parcel with these particular hats.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

GREAT analogy!

Travis

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu May 13, 2010 9:11 am

I can't speak for Marc or Steve but I don't sell it for a couple of reasons.

One, it cost me a lot and Its a pain to get more stock when I run out.

Yep, that is why we don't sell it. Plus, this stuff is so pricey, when compared to other ribbon. Can you imagine our cost to be 14 bucks a yard?? Now, granted, this ribbon is pure rayon which always costs more, but does not justify what we have to pay for it. I think it is a racket, being run in Europe, but nothing we can do except pay it, IF we want to use it. No one else makes it, but this one European company.

But LLS had the color matched and a special run done last year. Now, its not pure rayon, but a cotton rayon blend, and it is the right color. I would imagine he would sell you some of his stock. I think he bought up a few thousand yards. Email LLS, and see.

Indiana Bugs · Post by **Indiana Bugs** » Thu May 13, 2010 11:57 am

Indiana Jeff wrote:I don't think BMW will put their hubcaps on a Ford either. This particular ribbon goes part and parcel with these particular hats.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Yes, but the consumer can buy a BMW part from BMW, and they wont ask or deny you because of what car youre putting it on. Or, fer instance, I can buy a Ford Police Interceptor badge and put it on the back of my MINI if I want to. So the analogy is not quite correct. However, I do agree that sellers do reserve the right to sell or not sell their products, for whatever reason, in this case rarity and exclusivity.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu May 13, 2010 12:03 pm

I have been blocked out from getting a couple of stashes of vintage ribbon by other hatters. I don't like it in the least but that's business. Why shouldn't improtect what I got.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu May 13, 2010 12:15 pm

Yeah, I agree the analogy doesn't hold up 100%, however, to further your analogy (and I hope better make my point) that anyone can go out and buy BMW hubcaps and put them on whatever car they want, any member here can do the research to find a ribbon manufacturer that will make the ribbon to the specs the member wants and then layout the necessary capital to buy the quantity necessary to make the deal worthwhile to the ribbon maker. Then that member can have their own source of totally awesome ribbon and fill a niche of supplying said ribbon to the masses.

Steve, Marc and John have what amounts to a proprietary ribbon so they are going to keep it that way.

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

maboot38 · Post by **maboot38** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:12 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:It's a highly radioactive ribbon in its natural state. Unless you have the proper equipment for handling and neutralizing it, it will kill you, much like the Nazis after they opened the Ark.

This would explain the surviving of the nuclear blast!! He used the fridge to survive the blast, but he was already immune to the radioactivity from years of wearing that ribbon on his hat!!!

Bravo bink!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:14 pm

It makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Thu May 13, 2010 1:45 pm

Why won't McDonald's tell us the oil blend they use to make their french fries? Or Why won't 7-11 tell us what they use in their Slurpees that makes it taste different than Icees? Its all proprietary. Each company has the right to do with their property as they wish. If I could find the ribbon AB(D) and Penman use, I'd probably sell it at like $20 a yard to you guys here so that I would make a profit, but I'm not a hatter and I don't have the resources that they have to even find this ribbon. This ribbon is part of the hat you buy and as such is part of the luxury of owning a Penman or AB. You want the ribbon, buy one of their hats. Its that simple.

Dave

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu May 13, 2010 2:13 pm

Steve, Marc and John have what amounts to a proprietary ribbon so they are going to keep it that way.

Yeah, I guess this is true. But as John said, we don't sell it because sometimes we have to wait in order to get it. I order it when I get down to a hundred meters. And this last time, I was out of ribbon for a few days, which held up shipments. You get real nervous when your hat production is shut down because of a piece of ribbon!! So, that's my own reason for not offering it for sale. And no other reason than that.

Post by **Indiana Jeff** » Thu May 13, 2010 2:24 pm

McDonald's french fries...mmmmm....

Regards,

Indiana Jeff

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Thu May 13, 2010 3:21 pm

Well, here's a question for the hatters that could potentially illuminate by widening the scope of the issue. If a customer were to ask to buy modern hat ribbon OTHER THAN the "Indy Ribbon" or some other particularly exclusive offering, would the answer remain "no?"

In other words, say I want to swap the ribbon on a non-Indy hat, and I can't find ribbon for that purpose on my own; I call up to beg John or Steve, or whoever to sell me something that is easy for them to get. What are the results? (I will confess, this is an issue that I fear is about to come up for me, so this thread is well-timed).

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu May 13, 2010 3:47 pm

If it's not vintage or the Indy ribbon. I can get it with no problems I would say yes. If you are wanting to put it on one of my hats. Then no way.

Bruce Wayne · Post by **Bruce Wayne** » Thu May 13, 2010 5:34 pm

Part of the reason that I started this thread is because I would like to get a yard of the official ribbon, only in 7/8 inch wide to make a watchband out of it. Yet, because it is a "company secrect" I cannot do such a thing...

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Thu May 13, 2010 5:37 pm

Wouldn't you want something thicker and more durable for a watch band?

Bruce Wayne · Post by **Bruce Wayne** » Thu May 13, 2010 6:25 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:Wouldn't you want something thicker and more durable for a watch band?

Not really. Brooks Brothers sells watchbands made of ribbon, but none that I can find online have that Indy feel of adventure to them.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Thu May 13, 2010 6:43 pm

Part of the reason that I started this thread is because I would like to get a yard of the official ribbon, only in 7/8 inch wide to make a watchband out of it.

We wouldn't stock that size anyways. No call for it. Not the Indy ribbon anyways. I doubt anyone would buy a roll just to sell a yard. And, the rest would sit there forever tying up several hundred dollars in inventory that would never be used.

Most hatters are real stingy with their vintage ribbon, as it can't be replaced. Unless you happen to get lucky. I have sold pieces of my vintage ribbon collection a few times, but would rather not. I figure when I hang up the hatting tools, John or Marc will take my vintage ribbon off my hands. John would probably have more need of it than Marc though.

indyclone · Post by **indyclone** » Thu May 13, 2010 9:10 pm

i know its not as official as the ribbon you guys have for your hats , but todds has black ribbon that he sells for just under $2.00 . i bought three sets from him and put one on my dorfman and will be having the others put on my down and uptowners hat soon , i could do it myself but i wouldnt want to ruin the hat and i will be taking it to optimos in chicago to have them do the great job they did with my dorfman . if you want something close todds is the way to go , what do you hatguys think? hmmmm?

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Thu May 13, 2010 10:28 pm

Todd's ribbon is Petersham not a grosgrain. just so everyone is clear on the ribbon.

Chewbacca Jones · Post by **Chewbacca Jones** » Fri May 14, 2010 3:46 am

BendingOak wrote: If you are wanting to put it on one of my hats. Then no way.

Would not dream of it. Why replace what's been done so well.

Todd's ribbon is Petersham not a grosgrain. just so everyone is clear on the ribbon.

Yes, quite different, but the color is much closer than most grosgrain found on modern brown hats. The one I got is a very dark brown that borders on black. I was going to use it for my current project, but it's too dark.

Adirondack Jones · Post by **Adirondack Jones** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:48 am

while it's true that you can put BMW hubcaps on a Ford Focus... it would look stupid

fenris · Post by **fenris** » Fri May 14, 2010 9:43 am

What's the difference between petersham and grosgrain?

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 14, 2010 9:47 am

Petersham ribbon:

Grosgrain ribbon:

The main difference is the edge or "border" on the ribbon. Grosgrain has the border, while petersham does not.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:09 am

Petersham is not really hat ribbon. Grosgrain is. At least that is how I understand it.

Dave

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:13 am

Well, any ribbon can technically be defined as "hat ribbon" if it's put on a hat. It also depends what kind of hat you are putting said ribbon on. Traditionally, grosgrain is associated with fine men's hats, while a much wider array of ribbon type and style is seen on women's hats.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:19 am

This is true Rick but the un finished edge look terrible on a hat. Makes it look rough and not finished. Also the petersham tends to fray.

Fedora · Post by **Fedora** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:22 am

if you want something close todds is the way to go , what do you hatguys think? hmmmm?

LLS has a better color. He matched the color that we use, and had a special run made. He probably would love to sell it too.

Well, any ribbon can technically be defined as "hat ribbon" if it's put on a hat. It also depends what kind of hat you are putting said ribbon on. Traditionally, grosgrain is associated with fine men's hats, while a much wider array of ribbon type and style is seen on women's hats.

Yeah, but even with grosgrain, there is a "hat band" quality grosgrain. Although today you only see it in vintage stock ribbon, but Schiff can still run the hat band quality, I think. LLS would know for sure. He delved into this when getting his made. I think the hat band quality line is just a finer weave. And of course, costs more.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:28 am

I don't argue the importance of ribbon quality one bit! I'm just being technical, that's all.

I agree, John, that petersham ribbon looks awful on men's hats.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 10:37 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:I don't argue the importance of ribbon quality one bit! I'm just being technical, that's all. .

Get out.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:50 am

I've been trying for years, but being a moderator here goes towards my community service and parole.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 11:52 am

binkmeisterRick wrote:I've been trying for years, but being a moderator here goes towards my community service and parole.

Indiana Blooze · Post by **Indiana Blooze** » Fri May 14, 2010 12:36 pm

binkmeisterRick wrote:I've been trying for years, but being a moderator here goes towards my community service and parole.

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Fri May 14, 2010 12:57 pm

Local Land Surveyor · Post by **Local Land Surveyor** » Fri May 14, 2010 4:21 pm

Fedora wrote:
if you want something close todds is the way to go , what do you hatguys think? hmmmm?
LLS has a better color. He matched the color that we use, and had a special run made. He probably would love to sell it too.

Well, any ribbon can technically be defined as "hat ribbon" if it's put on a hat. It also depends what kind of hat you are putting said ribbon on. Traditionally, grosgrain is associated with fine men's hats, while a much wider array of ribbon type and style is seen on women's hats.
Yeah, but even with grosgrain, there is a "hat band" quality grosgrain. Although today you only see it in vintage stock ribbon, but Schiff can still run the hat band quality, I think. LLS would know for sure. He delved into this when getting his made. I think the hat band quality line is just a finer weave. And of course, costs more.

Yeah. Schiff does make what they call a standard grograin ribbon and a "hatband" grosgrain ribbon. I spent some extensive time with Schiff in getting a complete understanding of ribbon making. I did have a special run of ribbon using the standard grosgrain using a custom dye match. It was very interesting to me. The cost for the replication in thier "hatband" grosgrain ribbon was astronomical. I had to run a minimum of ten thousand yards regardlees the type I wanted. I had to commit to an order just to run the dye tests. The cost tripled if I ran the "hatband" style. The nitty gritty difference was not that big. I had samples of both. I had professional eyes and non professional eyes compare and the feelings were mutual. Quality wise, the "vintage" stuff is in the eye of the beholder.

So, I had my ribbon run and haven't had one complaint about color or quality. I just recently sent a reblock Fed IV back to a COW member in Tennessee. I reblocked his hat with my Raiders block and replaced his ribbon with mine. He was very pleased.
I was very impressed with Schiff and how they treated me as a customer. They answered all my questions. I really picked apart the difference between the standard and "hatband" ribbons. Material wise, ain't a hairs difference. The only difference was the "weave per inch", which in very small.
If anyone wants to contact me about ribbon, I'll be glad to hear you out. I will say that if things continue, I will look into the "hatband" grosgrain. This depends completely on the Indy crowd. If they demand it and the support is there, I will make the investment . Honestly though, it is not that drastic of a change based on the cost difference.
By the way. Schiff will not run the color for anyone else but me. That part is exclusive to me.

Bruce Wayne, let me know if you'd like some ribbon.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 4:47 pm

David I agree Schiff is a great company and easy to work with. The reason the amount is high is because most of their ribbon customers are not hat makers or companies. They make ribbon for other reasons and their costumers buy in Hugh amounts. You and I are small potatoes for them but they never make you feel that way.

if I read you correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong. That you can not see the difference from their ribbon and vintage?????? Or did you state that you can not see a difference between their non hat ribbon that can be used as hat ribbon and their hat grade grosgrain ribbon?

I'm shocked to read that because I have all three. Their grosgrain, their hat grade grosgrain and vintage ribbon that I have sourced and of cource the Indy ribbon. I have found differences.

DR Ulloa · Post by **DR Ulloa** » Fri May 14, 2010 6:20 pm

I haven't seen the modern hatband quality ribbon but I can definately tell a difference between modern grosgrain and vintage hat ribbon. Huge difference. I'm no hatter, but its not even in the same species...

Dave

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:02 pm

You are correct David there is a big difference between vintage grosgrain and modern grosgrain. There is a difference between modern grosgrain and modern hat grade quality grosgrain. It's the mix of rayon/cotton and then pattern. The pattern is smaller on the hat grade.

Now the Indy ribbon is closer to the vintage ribbon than it is to the modern or modern hat grade.

There is one things about the Indy ribbon I don't like. It's Nader to work with. It's hard to work with than any of the modern ribbon and harder than the vintage ribbon.

Doesn't matter to the customer because the end results are great. It's just harder for the hatter.

John

Local Land Surveyor · Post by **Local Land Surveyor** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:05 pm

BendingOak wrote:David I agree Schiff is a great company and easy to work with. The reason the amount is high is because most of their ribbon customers are not hat makers or companies. They make ribbon for other reasons and their costumers buy in Hugh amounts. You and I are small potatoes for them but they never make you feel that way.

if I read you correctly and please correct me if I'm wrong. That you can not see the difference from their ribbon and vintage?????? Or did you state that you can not see a difference between their non hat ribbon that can be used as hat ribbon and their hat grade grosgrain ribbon?

I'm shocked to read that because I have all three. Their grosgrain, their hat grade grosgrain and vintage ribbon that I have sourced and of cource the Indy ribbon. I have found differences.

Let me clear that up, John. I didn't see a big difference in Schiffs standard grosgrain (pat. 705) and their "hatband" grosgrain. The feel, the weave, the texture, etc... side by side comparison. I use their "hatband" grosgrain on other hats I make. I agree with Schiff that it "feels" lighter (weight... not color

). According to Schiff, their "hatband" grosgrain is mainly used by hatters, thus the name "hatband". I put it in quotes like that because Schiff makes a distinct difference in refering to each ribbon line. By Schiffs definition, the only difference between the two styles in the slightly higher weave count per inch on the "hatband" grosgrain. They both are rayon/cotton blend. The other factor that makes the "hatband" more expensive is the width. The Indy run would have to be custom sized. They do not run a 1-1/2" wide "hatband" grosgrain ribbon.
Vintage is Vintage. They ain't makin' it anymore.

. I personally feel that current produced ribbon is a wonderful product. I believe Schiff ribbon is of no less quality than the ribbon made in the past. I am very pleased with this ribbon's quality just as I am of the felt quality that I use. It looks good, it lasts and it fits the need. People have been pleased with this ribbon.

P.S I was very picky about the color. Very picky.

BendingOak · Post by **BendingOak** » Fri May 14, 2010 8:13 pm

Don't get me wrong David. I use their hat grade hat ribbon as well. They make a great product. I'm sure you were very picky about the color. I myself would have went with you on it but ounce you had " the Indy ribbon" it's very hard to go to anything else.

I myself have thought about getting a run done on not only the SA color like you did but get the SA pattern and mix. It's just a very large amount to buy. You know better than anyone. I would have to buy so much of it that it would last me for 40 years working at steve's pace and I could still have have plenty left over to TP all my friends houses with every day.