Ok...I have a question.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:58 pm

In light of everything that's come out recently....

If the FS Expo is made from patterns worked up from details taken from one of the Terry Leonard jackets, and the jackets that Leonard wore were (possibly) from the ten jackets that Peter made after the initially successful "prototype," (but were rejected because they were too "off") does that mean that the Expo jackets are, essentially made from patterns that we now think were "unacceptable" to Spielberg and, therefore, relegated to being worn by the stunt doubles?

In other words....where does that leave the Expedition jacket with respect to its "authenticity" in design?

OR...did FS simply revert back to the design they were using way back when Lee Keppler was using them to make his jackets?

I'm just trying to iron out what I see as possibilities.

Later on!
Indydawg

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:04 am

The thing about the Expedition is it has ALWAYS been stated and known it was created from a screen used Raiders stunt jacket from the very beginning. It has never been said it was patterned from a 'hero' jacket. It is what it always HAS been.

It's about as 'authentic' in design as it gets. It's just not patterned after one of the 3 favorites of Spielberg that was used as a hero jacket.

The few changes that WERE made after the first production runs were done at the request of the fans.

FS/G&B found themselves in the same boat that Wings and Wested found themselves in. Fans claimed they saw this or that in fuzzy screen grabs (we didn't HAVE the fine equipment we have today for clear shots). In order to keep customers happy, slight changes were incorporated into the patterns, as that's what customers were telling them 'they saw'.

In FS/G&B's case, it made no difference that a screen used jacket had been actually handled, examined and measured to create the patterns. Folks wanted the changes THEY thought they saw on screen. The jacket companies were in the business to sell jackets and to KEEP said customers happy, so those changes were made. It didn't make any difference to them one way or the other.

For example, the position of the yoke was changed due to FAN demand, NOT due to a pattern change. As has been discovered, what fans were seeing were different jackets from shot to shot in the film (as commented on by others in the past in many discussions, but shouted down and rediculed at the time by the community), and the yoke was higher on one, and lower on another.

The irony in all this is (and this has been said by Wings for years) is that the inconsistancies in the current design of the manufacturers jackets is all due to requests/demands of the customers. Once those demands/requests were met, now they're being criticised by those same customers for MAKING those changes, and being accused of being the source OF the new perceived 'flaws' in the patterns.

The FS/G&B changes were slight, but they were not made using the old Keppler patterns.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:38 am

The thing about the Expedition is it has ALWAYS been stated and known it was created from a screen used Raiders stunt jacket from the very beginning. It has never been said it was patterned from a 'hero' jacket. It is what it always HAS been.

Then wouldn't the first Expeditions look like the jacket Leonard wore which looked like the TOD jacket? I don't ever recall seeing one like that at all. They all had characteristics of the main hero jackets, not the closed pleats, smaller side vents/pockets and wider yoke. Any and all pics of Leonard that I recall show him wearing this jacket. Is there a pic of one like thay floating around I may have never seen? If there are please post them here. Love to see them.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:42 am

I now own the first MK prototye that came off the line, and many of it's charactistics are different than my year old version, such as the pleat depth and the like that you mention. That version was a short lived version, but it was true to the original patterns.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:45 am

So, it looks exactly like the one Leonard wore then? Exactly? Cuz it should have. Post up some pics.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:52 am

LOL! Come now, old friend, you KNOW what an effort it takes me to get photos shot, let alone POSTED around here! Heck, it took months to get things lined up to show off that new AB, as seen in my avatar!!

Do a search and see if you can find photos of MK wearing his G&B from 'back in the day'. I used to have in my 'favorites' a link to his old site, but I'll be darned if I can find it. He posted a TON of photos right after he got the jacket. If you can find it, you can see what I'm talking about.

Regards! Michaelson

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:54 am

that old GB jacket John has (Gmann) wasnt that MK's old jacket?

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:56 am

If so, I've tried it on and almost purchased it. It did not share the characteristics of the Leonard jacket we see him wearing.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:17 am

That's the jacket. Thanks for not buying it, '5'!

Personally, I don't honestly pay attention who wore what (I can see folks reeling back from the PC screens as they read this!

), and quite honestly never DID care. I do know it's different than what is currently being made, and when the weather warms up has been my 'go to' jacket.

I had to get the zipper replaced, and had snaps added to the stormflap. Wears nice! I like it. That's always been my understanding of this hobby....wearing and owning what you like.

Regards! Michaelson

agent5 · Post by **agent5** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:24 am

I just spoke to GMann and he confirmed to me what I already knew, that it did not have any of the characteristics of the Leonard jacket we see him wearing in the film or behind the scenes. I suppose pics are not necessary since I've already handled that jacket, unless others may be interested in seeing it. Still, I'd love to see a G&B that looks anything remotely like the Leonard stunt jacket.

I was also thinking that if if G&B would have copied it faithfully and it was indeed the jacket we see him wearing in all the photos and video that it would have paved the way to a perfect TOD jacket 10 years ago.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:26 am

It's never good looking in the rear-view mirror. There are so many 'what if's' in this hobby it would drive us all crazy!!

Like I said, the MK jacket was one of the first production models that came off the line. There were several prototypes that were made too, so it would be interesting to study THOSE photos again. Photos were emailed to me as they occurred, but all those emails are LONG gone due to a mail server crash we had at work back in 2000.

Regards! Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:34 am

"The irony in all this is (and this has been said by Wings for years) is that the inconsistancies in the current design of the manufacturers jackets is all due to requests/demands of the customers. Once those demands/requests were met, now they're being criticised by those same customers for MAKING those changes, and being accused of being the source OF the new perceived 'flaws' in the patterns."

Yes....I find it terribly ironic that folks would try to take something that seemed to be working and try to "improve" it with combining the features of between 5-10 jackets into ONE jacket with all those specific features....it could only come out looking like Frankenstein's jacket....

But, just to clarify, then....the original run Expedition (which is NOT what's being made now) was based on one of the 10 jackets that Wested/LC sent that were set aside as "substandard" according to the production team.....and hence worn by the stuntmen....am I right on that?

Were these same 10 jackets the not-so-affectionately termed POS jackets?

Oh....and can you tell me what specific changes HAVE been made to the Expedition...other than the back yoke being raised/shrunken? I have to admit that I'm a HABITUAL rear-view mirror gazer...consequently, I hardly ever look where I'm going....

...

Were the choices in changes made to the jacket's production patterns (the Expo) done because they were trying to correct the problems that perhaps arose due to being one of those 10 "mismade" jackets?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:37 am

No, the so called 'POS' jacket was a single jacket made by Andrias D (never can remember how to spell his last name) who made all the shirts for Raiders.

I recall the yoke position and pocket flap shape were two of the changes. Others will have to chime in as to others.

Regards! Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:53 am

Ahhh....I see. But the Expo, even if it had been made exactly like the jacket it was supposedly patterned after, still would not have been the "hero" jacket.....just "like" it...

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:54 am

Nope. It was never patterned from a 'hero' jacket, and never claimed to be.

Regards! Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:13 am

You know...it's been so long, but I DO remember the Expedition being patterned after Leonard's jacket....still cool!

Now....here's something else....I remember from the Wings/Cooper jackets I owned, that they wore (at least on me) much more like the Last Crusade jacket than a Raiders...and I now understand that Wings is offering a jacket that has been through some changes....AND a new "Temple of Doom" jacket version....

I've also seen pics of a "Hack" jacket (Cooper/Wings) that looks NOTHING like the old Wings jackets, and is more like the Raiders jacket....and looks a lot like the CS jacket, too....

So...what's going on with Wings these days? Or...are we still under a gag rule on that as per Sarge's attorney?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:07 pm

You know...I've read a LOT of good stuff about Nowak's jacket....but, really...is it THAT much better a jacket than what you might get from Wings, G&B, or Wested?

I, for one, LOVED my Wings jacket....I thought it, at least on ME, wore more like the LC jacket than just about any I'd owned...except for the very first Wested I owned, from Michaelson, that I subsequently ruined by trying to have the collar shortened....something I've NEVER forgiven myself for!!!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:11 pm

Uh, I'll be hiding in the Plymouth listening to the radio now.

Let the games begin......

Regards! Michaelson

Mitch LaRue · Post by **Mitch LaRue** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:19 pm

Indydawg wrote:You know...I've read a LOT of good stuff about Nowak's jacket....but, really...is it THAT much better a jacket than what you might get from Wings, G&B, or Wested?

As soon as I read that, I jumped under the Plymouth too (and I'm not even a part of this Thread!)

But, good news Michaelson...
Here...
I brought an extra flak jacket... it's yours, if you'd like.

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:37 pm

Not sure THAT'S gonna work, Mitch! I'll hand you the armor plating, and you weld it on the doors. We MIGHT survive if we get it on thick enough.....

Regards! Michaelson

Satipo · Post by **Satipo** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Uh, uh, uh ... I fear nothing short of a fridge can save us.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:49 pm

well dont get your hopes up for Superman either.......

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:20 pm

My Expo does not look ANYTHING like a Temple jaket....if we're talking TOD....I know we're getting to the point of being able to tell when a particular jacket was worn in a particular scene for Raiders now....so I'm assuming (perhaps erroneously) that Temple means TOD...correct me if I'm wrong.

When you say reversed seam, you mean the seam faced BACKWARDS...as opposed to facing the front of the jacket, right?

I've got LARGE pockets, a small collar (smaller than on ANY Wested I've ever had or seen...except AFTER I had that one I had butchered...did I mention I'll never forgive myself for that?!

), front facing shoulder seams, 3.5" yoke, and 1.5" pleats....

How similar to the original Leonard jacket you used am I? And is the jacket you used to take the info off for FS the "cherry-picked" one from Wested you mentioned earlier?

And....uhhh....should I be trying to find a place behind the bar to hide? Is it anything that can't be resolved over a pint?

whipcracker · Post by **whipcracker** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:48 pm

I THINK _ means the opening Raiders Chachapoyan Temple scene.

Is that right _?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:50 pm

I believe you're correct, whipcracker.

Regard! Michaelson

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:56 pm

I thought Lee Keppler owned the first Flight suits copy of the jacket _ examined?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:00 pm

Ah....in that case, my Expo (aside from the much lighter brown color and red M422 lining) looks EXACTLY like the Temple jacket!

Sorry...re-learning curve after all the new jargon updates and acronyms..

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Well, I might have to join Mitch and

in the plymouth.

scoot over boys... The more I read, the more of a Wings fan I am becoming. The new info coupled with TN's going up in price and the Wings going down in price, have me on Wings side more and more. How does one with a love for this hobby and a very limited budget (the curse of a noble profession) quantify what $700 better is?

Travis

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:56 pm

Hollowpond wrote:Well, I might have to join Mitch and in the plymouth. scoot over boys... The more I read, the more of a Wings fan I am becoming. The new info coupled with TN's going up in price and the Wings going down in price, have me on Wings side more and more. How does one with a love for this hobby and a very limited budget (the curse of a noble profession) quantify what $700 better is?

Travis

I thought it was established that the TN jackets did not go up in price, at least as much as was thought in that one thread.

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:06 pm

No...they DID go up...

And I have no idea how you justify that...

Like my old friend Ferris Beuller said, "If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up!"

but I teach school...in Georgia (which puts me behind the 8 ball in SO many ways), so there just isn't 700.00 lying around the Dawg house that doesn't already have a purpose...

Besides...I always loved my Wings jackets!! They fit the best and had a consistently good look...especially their "old cow" cowhide...loved that stuff!!

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:08 pm

DAWG you're a teacher too! I knew there was something I liked about you. Yeah, I just can't justify it. When those new Wings come out, I'm all over a vintage cowhide one.

Travis

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:12 pm

Indydawg wrote:No...they DID go up...

.....

Are you basing that solely on the recent thread here or on a personal contact with Tony Nowak?

The thread here was inaccurate. Indy Zane corrected himself.

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:23 pm

Even if they didn't go up, can you quantify to me, a teacher, in North Carolina, with two kids, that TN's jacket is $500 better? Its just personal taste, the TN's look awesome, and I'm sure they're great. I just can't justify that for me. Nope...I think I'm a Wings man, thanks all the same.

Travis

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:52 pm

All that said...I can certainly see if SA is your goal...that the TN jacket just might get the nod...you can certainly see the consistency bt what you see in CS and you guys' TN jackets...

Oh...and yes. I was basing that on a post here where someone said they talked directly to Tony and he said he'd had to go up...I've not contacted him directly...thanks for the correction on that!

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:53 pm

Well, it's all a matter of (and you KNEW I'd eventually post this) a comparison of apples and oranges.

All TN jackets are hand made, one at a time, by the man who made ALL of the Crystal Skull jackets for Ford, Shia, and all the stunt men involved. He also has a list a mile long of other famous jackets he's made, one at a time, and to the highest quality possible.

Wings jackets are wonderful jackets. I own, and have owned, more Wings jackets than any other manufacturer. They are solid, EXTREMELY well made jackets, mil spec, and built to take a beating....but...they are NOT custom 'one at a time' jackets like the Nowak. They are top drawer production jackets. Nothing custom about them, and THAT'S what makes them so affordable.

So, apples to oranges...and yes, that does make the TN jacket worth $500 more than the Wings in this case....but then some of the top drawer Wings jackets are around $800-$900, so they can get in the upper stratosphere too!

Regards! Michaelson

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:10 pm

Absolutely have to echo Michaelson here. I do own one "astronomically" priced
jacket...an Aero Leather Clothing Co. A-2 patterned from actual WW2 patterns, and also custom made with squadron insignia...

High quality, custom made, individually sized and created to a person's body and style
needs....what TN is charging is the going rate...and I'm sure is completely justified in doing so...

BUT (and you knew that was coming) having not seen one in person, I can't say that I know, with my own eyes, that the jacket is worth that...I know
my Aero is...and I trust Michaelson's judgement, but until
I see one myself, I just can't say...

And on THIS teacher's salary (also with two kids, mortgage, etc) it would take
quite a while to save enough for one..

Yeah, man...teaching is cool...but it's for
the adventure...NOT the money....unless you're a football
coach!

Long John Tinfoil · Post by **Long John Tinfoil** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:59 pm

It's not the money, it's the mileage.

LJ

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:06 pm

Oh...and I just had a thought....no, not my first, and certainly won't be the last of the evening....and really...hear me out. I'm not trying to start anything...but (oh, god...HUGE "but!")

Let's assume for a minute that the TN jacket is NOT what it is....a jacket made by the same hands, in the same way, using the same (or as near to it as possible) leather, in as close to a duplication as possible of the jacket that Tony made for Ford in CS...

What if the TN jacket was just....a jacket? Without all the metaphoric accoutrements?

What if we WERE comparing apples to apples?

Construction-wise, leather quality, attention to detail...take everything you get from Tony into account...everything from initial point-of-contact to product delivery...

Is the jacket he delivers worth "every penny?"

Because, really...for MOST of us....those pennies add up and every one of them counts....I guess I am really looking for a justification of the jacket on its own merits. I am (obviously) not above spending 700.00 or more on a jacket...I've done it (over the years, of course)....but in the absence of being able to see one and KNOW it's of that caliber....see what I mean?

Post by **Michaelson** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:24 pm

Simple answer. yes. Yes it is.

Regards! Michaelson

Hollowpond · Post by **Hollowpond** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:43 pm

Indydawg wrote:
Yeah, man...teaching is cool...but it's for
the adventure...NOT the money....unless you're a football
coach!

You said it!

Travis

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:46 pm

My master has spoken....

I guess I better start hiding pennies!

Before the end of 2010, I shall have one...oh, yes....I shall!

Highest Regards!!!!
Indydawg

gwyddion · Post by **gwyddion** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:51 pm

Indydawg wrote:My master has spoken....

I guess I better start hiding pennies!

Before the end of 2010, I shall have one...oh, yes....I shall!

Highest Regards!!!!
Indydawg

But what will you be saving for? His CS jacket, Raiders jacket (which is more expensive in certain types of leather), his ToD or his LC?

Regards, Geert

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:58 pm

Dawg, I have a Wings, a Wested, and a Nowak. Based only on quality, the Nowak really is a remarkable jacket. If you're familiar with G&B jackets (which I believe you are, if memory serves) I would put the quality of the Nowak right next to the quality of the G&B jackets I've seen and handled. Does that help?

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:04 pm

A LC...of course! MY Holy Grail jacket...

Indydawg · Post by **Indydawg** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:07 pm

Yes, Bink...that DOES help...

Much obliged!!!

binkmeisterRick · Post by **binkmeisterRick** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:09 pm

Glad to help.

Holt · Post by **Holt** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:14 pm

dawg.

i have the answer. forget about TN. GB. wested. Todds.

THIS is IT.

youl find it on the bay.

man, those sliders are out there...

Ill bet that little lepricon gets pretty p'off when he finds out his shoebuckles were stolen.

Forrest For the Trees · Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:19 pm

What I think is important to the fans here is not simply Tony's creation of the Skull's jacket, but instead...

The Nowak Raiders jacket is THE ONLY jacket out there that is based directly on the actual hero jacket worn by Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark. Tony claims to have been lent THE jacket from an inside, unnamed source, and created patterns based on that jacket, and sourced the shrunken lambskin based on his observations. That is worth the entire price for many folks on this board.

And it makes sense, to some degree (if spending hundreds of dollars on a leather jacket makes any sense). I mean, you could settle for a rack jacket from Wings or G&B or Todd, or try to send a list of specs to Wested and keep your fingers crossed, or you could just shell out the big bucks and get from TN as close to the real thing as possible, custom made just for you.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:54 pm

Michaelson wrote:Simple answer. yes. Yes it is.

Regards! Michaelson

Agreed.
You are also getting extraordinary care and service before, during and continuing after the purchase.

RCSignals · Post by **RCSignals** » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:01 pm

Hollowpond wrote:Even if they didn't go up, can you quantify to me, a teacher, in North Carolina, with two kids, that TN's jacket is $500 better? Its just personal taste, the TN's look awesome, and I'm sure they're great. I just can't justify that for me. Nope...I think I'm a Wings man, thanks all the same.

Travis

Wings are fine jackets. I've owned three. The last was a black label G1, returned only because it was a long and was very long. The construction of that Black label though was superb, it even had backing buttons on the pocket flap buttons, something many other G1's from other manufacturers these days do not.
Wings new line assuming the same quality should be very appealing.

But you aren't the only teacher here, and certainly some of those other teachers here have purchased jackets from TN. What you spend you money on is up to you, and what you do to gather that money for special purposes is up to you. What I'm saying is it is not an impossibility for someone who is a teacher with two kids.